A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Michael Clark]

5 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

Thanks, David!  Don’t know why I’ve been so slow seeing the significance of this simple observation, but it looks to me that your shoulder slope argument is really credible.  Assuming this sort of thing (for relaxed shoulders) remains relatively constant for a number of years it sure seems to me like a real, measurable distinction between the two Oswalds.  Has anyone made a believable critique of it?

Have you shown this to John?  If not, I’ll send him a link to this page and try to get him to look, unless you’d rather do it.

That observation is often countered by claiming he buffed-out in the Marines. I am not buying that counter argument. In fact, I've had a hard time believing that the DPD LHO was ever a real Marine, while the photo of the very-necky LHO Marine looks like a Marine

[Jim Hargrove]

Harvey Oswald (the guy killed by Ruby) apparently did go through boot camp and was stationed at some USMC bases afterward, but he was hardly a normal Marine.  He spent much of his so-called enlistment time living in New Orleans doing civilian work.

http://harveyandlee.net/Marines/Marines.html

 

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Have you shown this to John?

We've discussed it.  Didn't make as huge an impact as it did on you...

yet I think that one thing is very consistent

DJ

2 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

He thought a couple photos did not look like LHO and wanted to be careful under oath.

Whatever you say buddy...  For any other person's reading of this one gets the idea that Pic does not recognize this man as his brother despite recognizing photos of his brother when much younger.   Only you and a couple others can look at the sky and call it red...

Still doesn't make it red, though, to anyone but you.

Mr. JENNER - Exhibit No. 287 is two figures, taking them from top to bottom and in the lower right-hand corner, do you recognize those? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't. 

 

Mr. JENNER - Commission Exhibit No. 291, at the bottom of the page, there is a picture of a young man handing out a leaflet, and another man to the left of him who is reaching out for it. Do you recognize the young man handing out the leaflet? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I would be unable to recognize him. 
Mr. JENNER - As to whether he was your brother? 
Mr. PIC - That is correct. 

 

 

 Mr. JENNER - Exhibit No. 290, the lower left-hand corner there is a photograph of a young lady and a young man. Do you recognize either of those persons? 
Mr. PIC - He appears to me as Lee Harvey Oswald in 1962 when I seen him. 

 

Edited June 15, 2017 by David Josephs

[Jim Hargrove]

12 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Neither Myrtle or Julian Evans ever stated, insinuated or implied that the LHO and Marguerite they saw in later years were different individuals from the people they had know years before. They only said they had changed as people do. Armstrong uses things like this as well as mistaken witnesses to promote his discredited theory. In some instances, such as with Myrtle Evans, he uses selective quotes to make his point. See:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-two-marguerites-part-2.html

 

Oh, brother, here we go again....

Myrtle Evans and her husband Julian were friends with the real Marguerite Oswald for nearly three decades. Included in Julian Evans' April 7, 1964 WC testimony was this exchange with Jenner (emphasis added):  

Mr. JENNER - Give me your impression of Marguerite Oswald.
Mr. EVANS - Marguerite?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mr. EVANS - I think she's a fine woman, myself, a fine woman; intelligent, very soft spoken - a beautiful woman, with black hair streaked with a little gray, but when you saw her on television since this thing happened, she really looked awful; nothing at all like she used to look. She has really aged. She looked like a charwoman, compared to what she used to look like. She used to be a fashion plate. She dressed beautifully, but when we saw her on television just recently, after all this happened, she looked awful. There's no way to describe it, the change that has come over her. You wouldn't have recognized her if they hadn't told you who she was; she looked that different. Where her hair used to be black, now it's entirely gray, and she really looks Old
Mr. JENNER - Well, she's 57, I believe.
Mr. EVANS - That's right; she's the same age as my wife, but she looks about 70 now. That's about all I can remember about her, and then I saw this thing on television when the President was assassinated, and when it showed her picture, we just couldn't believe it was Marguerite.

His wife Myrtle Evans testified on the same day:

Mrs. EVANS - A very good housekeeper, very tasty; she could take anything and make something out of it, and something beautiful. She had a lot of natural talent that way, and she was not lazy. She would work with things by the hour for her children, and she kept a very neat house, and she was always so lovely herself. That's why, when I saw her on TV, after all of this happened, she looked so old and haggard, and I said, "That couldn't be Margie," but of course it was, but if you had known Margie before all this happened, you would see what I mean. She was beautiful. She had beautiful wavy hair.

Mrs. Evans added this:

And then there's Oswald's brother, John Pic....Mrs. EVANS - As far as I could see, they were very happy, very closely knit, very much in love with each other, and these boys knew that their mother was putting them through school, and giving them what they needed, as best she could. She was a very good provider for her children, and a very decent woman. I mean, she wasn't a loose woman at all. She was very decent, a very fine woman. 

Does that sound like the "Marguerite Oswald" we all heard about.

And then there's Ed Voebel....

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet his mother? 
Mr. VOEBEL. I think I met her one time, and for some reason I had a picture in my mind which was different from when I saw her in the paper after all of this happened. I didn't recognize her. She was a lot thinner, and her hair wasn't as gray, as I recall it, when I met her. Of course, this was about 8 years ago, but I can remember she had a black dress on, and she was sitting down smoking a cigarette; now, maybe she wasn't smoking, but this is a picture that comes to my mind as I recall that. 

Of course, none of these people could have possibly known about the elaborate charade that comprised the Oswald Project, but they clearly were surprised at phony Marguerite's appearance in 1964.  

Mr. and Mrs. Evans both testified that the Lee Harvey Oswald they knew was loud and boisterous, with a "foghorn voice."  This is certainly not the quiet, withdrawn, passive-aggresive kid described by the Warren Commission.

And then there's Oswald's brother, John Pic....  You wanna discuss that, Tracy?

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Here we go again is right. The key piece of testimony is:

That's why, when I saw her on TV, after all of this happened, she looked so old and haggard, and I said, "That couldn't be Margie," but of course it was, but if you had known Margie before all this happened, you would see what I mean. She was beautiful. She had beautiful wavy hair.

The Evans' were just surprised at the change in Marguerite-she had let herself go for sure. But at no time did they say or try to say she was a different individual than the person they had known. And none of the dozens or possibly hundreds of persons who knew the "old" Marguerite ever came forward to say the person they saw on TV was not the Marguerite they knew.

As for Pic, he had not seen his brother for 10 years until Thanksgiving day 1962. He looked at some photos and did not feel they looked like his brother. He was being careful since he was under oath. But again, he never said insinuated or implied that there were two Lee Harvey Oswalds. Again, from his testimony:

MR. JENNER-I will put it this way then: Is there anything you would like to add at the moment now that I am about to finish questioning you that you think you would like to have on the record?
Mr. PIC - If you are interested in my opinions--
Mr. JENNER - Yes, sir; anything that you want to add.
Mr. PIC - I think, I believe that Lee Oswald did the crime that he is accused of. I think that anything he may have done was aided with a little extra push from his mother in the living conditions that she presented to him.

So when asked point blank to add anything to his testimony including his opinions, Pic said LHO was guilty. He didn't say anything about 2 Oswalds. And when Armstrong called Pic, he had the perfect chance to climb on the conspiracy bandwagon (as many did) but he chose to stand by his testimony.

[David Josephs]

So Tracy... witnesses are on your hook for things they DIDN'T say?

You see Tracy, Edward here correctly identifies the images of Lee as a child and correctly says that HARVEY - who is actually in all of the adult images - is not recognized as his brother.  His expressing the opinion that this man did it does not remove from the table any ideas of this man NOT being his brother..

Not once does Edward identify Lee as his brother as he remembers.  You honestly believe he would offer, out of the blue, that this person was not his brother?

Anyone reading the testimony (except you obviously) can see that the boy on the fence thru the man at Thanksgiving - was someone he would not recognize as his brother... while in the same breath easily identifies his brother as a young boy.  

What you, one person, concludes does little to change the understanding the rest of us easily see by simply reading.

 

CE 281 - Page 68B of the February 21, 1964 issue of Life Magazine.	(PDF: 125 K)
CE 282 - Page 69 of the February 21, 1964 issue of Life Magazine.	(PDF: 119 K)
CE 283 - Page 68A of the February 21, 1964 issue of Life Magazine.	(PDF: 104 K)
CE 284 - Page 70 of the February 21, 1964 issue of Life Magazine.	(PDF: 96 K)
CE 285 - Page 71 of the February 21, 1964 issue of Life Magazine.	(PDF: 150 K)
CE 286 - Page 72 of the February 21, 1964 issue of Life Magazine.	(PDF: 160 K)
CE 287 - Page 74A of the February 21, 1964 issue of Life Magazine.	(PDF: 162 K)
CE 288 - Page 74B of the February 21, 1964 issue of Life Magazine.	(PDF: 154 K)
CE 289 - Page 75 of the February 21, 1964 issue of Life Magazine.	(PDF: 146 K)
CE 290 - Page 76 of the February 21, 1964 issue of Life Magazine.	(PDF: 170 K)
CE 291 - Page 78 of the February 21, 1964 issue of Life Magazine.	(PDF: 181 K)
CE 292 - Page 80 of the February 21, 1964 issue of Life Magazine.	(PDF: 162 K)

Mr. JENNER - I show you an exhibit, a series of exhibits, first Commission Exhibit No. 281 and Exhibit No. 282 being some spread pages of an issue of Life magazine of February 21, 1964. I direct your attention first to the lower left hand spread at .the bottom of the page. Do you recognize the area shown there? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir. 

 

Mr. JENNER - Do you see somebody in that picture that appears to be your brother? 
Mr. PIC - This one here with the arrow. 
Mr. JENNER - The one that has the printed arrow? 
Mr. PIC - That is correct, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - And you recognize that as your brother? 
Mr. PIC - Because they say so, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - Please, I don't want you to say-- 
Mr. PIC - No; I couldn't recognize that. 
Mr. JENNER - Because this magazine says that it is. 
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I couldn't recognize him from that picture. 
Mr. JENNER - You don't recognize anybody else in the picture after studying it that appears to be your brother? When I say your brother now, I am talking about Lee. 
Mr. PIC - No, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - In the upper portion there are a series of photographs spread from left-hand page across to the right-hand page. Take those on the left which appears to be a photograph of three young men. Do you recognize the persons shown in that photograph? 

Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize ,this photograph, the people from left to right being Robert Oswald, the center one being Lee Oswald, and the third one being myself. This picture was taken at the house in Dallas when we returned from New Orleans. 
Mr. JENNER - You mean from--when you came from New Orleans after being at the Bethlehem Orphanage Home? 
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - And you went to Dallas? 
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - It was taken in Dallas at or about that time? 
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - The next one is prominent; in front is a picture of a young boy. There is a partially shown girl and apparently another boy with a striped shirt in the background. Do you recognize that picture? 
Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald. 

Mr. JENNER - Do you have any impression as to when and where that was taken? 
Mr. PIC - Just looking at the picture, I would guess first, second grade, maybe. I would have to guess at it. 
Mr. JENNER - Then there is one immediately to the right of that, a young man in the foreground sitting on the floor, with his knees, legs crossed, and his arms also crossed. There are some other people apparently in the background. 
Mr. PIC - I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald. 
Mr. JENNER - Does anything about the picture enable you to identify as to where that was taken? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - Then to the right there is a picture of two young men, the upper portion of the one young man at the bottom and then apparently a young man standing up in back of that person. Do you recognize either of those young people? 
Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald. 
Mr. JENNER - Is he the one to which the black arrow is pointing? 
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do you recognize that? 
Mr. PIC - Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald. 
Mr. JENNER - That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir. 

 

Mr. JENNER - Commission Exhibit No. 284 do you recognize anybody in that picture that appears to be Lee Oswald? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir.
Mr. JENNER - There is a young fellow in the foreground-everybody else is facing the other way. He is in a pantomime, or grimace. Do you recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir; looking at that picture and I have looked at it several times--that looks more like Robert than it does Lee, to my recollection. 

Mr. JENNER - All right. On Exhibit No. 286, the lower right-hand corner, there is another picture. Do you recognize that as your brother Lee in that picture? 
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir; that is about how he looked when I seen him in 1962, his profile.   (despite the fact the image is taken a number of years earlier)
Mr. JENNER - Do you recognize the person, the lady to the right who is pointing her finger at him? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't. 

 

 

 

Mr. JENNER - Exhibit No. 287 is two figures, taking them from top to bottom and in the lower right-hand corner, do you recognize those? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't. 
Mr. JENNER - Neither one of them? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir. The lower one appears to me to look like Robert rather than Lee. The upper one, unless they tell me that, I would never guess that that would be Lee, sir. 

Mr. JENNER - All right. Exhibit No. 288, there is ill the lower left-hand corner, there is a reproduction of a service card and a reproduction, also, of a photograph with the head of a man. Do you recognize that? 
Mr. PIC - That looks to me approximately how Lee Oswald looked when I seen him Thanksgiving 1962.

 

Mr. JENNER - Directing your attention to Exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. 289, do you recognize any of the servicemen shown in that picture as your brother Lee? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I do not recognize them. 

Mr. JENNER - Exhibit No. 290, the lower left-hand corner there is a photograph of a young lady and a young man. Do you recognize either of those persons? 
Mr. PIC - He appears to me as Lee Harvey Oswald in 1962 when I seen him. 

 

Mr. JENNER - And the lady? 
Mr. PIC - She is his wife, Marina, sir. 

Mr. JENNER - Commission Exhibit No. 291, at the bottom of the page, there is a picture of a young man handing out a leaflet, and another man to the left of him who is reaching out for it. Do you recognize the young man handing out the leaflet? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I would be unable to recognize him. 
Mr. JENNER - As to whether he was your brother? 
Mr. PIC - That is correct. 

(Tracy - I'm at a loss for how you can look at this image, listen to that answer and still believe Pic did not believe that man was his step-brother Lee...
and surprisingly to none, I'm inclined to believe Ed's word against your attempts to "explain" what he means.)

Mr. JENNER - Exhibit No. 292, in the upper right-hand corner, is a picture of a lady, a young lady with a child. Do you recognize either of those persons? 
Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize Marina Oswald. 
Mr. JENNER - And the baby? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I couldn't recognize the baby. 
Mr. JENNER - Below that is a picture purporting to be that of your brother with a pistol on his right hip, and with a firearm, a rifle in his left hand holding up what appear to be some leaflets. Do you recognize that as your brother Lee? 
Mr. PIC - That is how he looked to me in 1962 when I seen him, sir. 

Tracy - Somehow you can read these words and not understand that "looked to me in 1962" is not answering the question, "Yes that's my brother as I know him"...  you know, the same he answered this:

"Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize Marina Oswald."

Edited June 16, 2017 by David Josephs

[Jim Hargrove]

Interesting.... I'll just add the following about Mr. and Mrs. Evans.

Clearly Mr. and Mrs. Evans couldn’t have comprehended the full scope of the fraud the FBI/WC was perpetrating, but they also obviously didn’t recognize the woman who regarded them as her closest friends.  Julian Evans said, “You wouldn't have recognized her if they hadn't told you who she was….”  If Tracy wants to pretend that’s normal and that the earth is flat, he’s free to do so.
 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Jim Hargrove

[W. Tracy Parnell]

40 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Edward here correctly identifies the images of Lee as a child and correctly says that HARVEY - who is actually in all of the adult images - is not recognized as his brother.

John Pic mentioned "Harvey"? Yes, I must have missed that!

[W. Tracy Parnell]

29 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Interesting.... I'll just add the following about Mr. and Mrs. Evans.

Clearly Mr. and Mrs. Evans couldn’t have comprehended the full scope of the fraud the FBI/WC was perpetrating, but they also obviously didn’t recognize the woman who regarded them as her closest friends.  Julian Evans said, “You wouldn't have recognized her if they hadn't told you who she was….”  If Tracy wants to pretend that’s normal and that the earth is flat, he’s free to do so.
 

Normal for someone to change after years and years and have a former friend not recognize them? Seems normal to me and has happened to me many times.

[David Josephs]

22 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

John Pic mentioned "Harvey"? Yes, I must have missed that!

Indeed.  When you cherry-pick out of context to make your point you wind up missing quite a lot.  

He mention's "Harvey" quite a bit

Edward Pic repeatedly and accurately points out "Harvey" as not being someone he'd recognize as his brother.
As well as accurately pointing out his brother Lee Harvey when shown his photo:

Quote

Mr. PIC - Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald

Quote

Do you recognize that picture? 
Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald

. 

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Do you recognize either of those young people? 
Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald

All the photos of Lee are also correctly identified by Edward as his brother.

Quote

Do you recognize that as your brother Lee? 
Mr. PIC - That is how he looked to me in 1962 when I seen him, sir.

Do you recognize either of those persons? 
Mr. PIC - He appears to me as Lee Harvey Oswald in 1962 when I seen him.

"Appears": seem; give the impression of being." 

The answer to the questions showing Harvey are not "Yes, that's my brother"...  the sentence implies that the person presented himself as LH Oswald in 1962.  His use of the word APPEARS is important, he even give his own synonym - "how he looked to me"

while those images of Lee he is shown are answered directly as well...  "I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald"

is that really too hard for you to see?
 

 

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Mr. JENNER - Exhibit No. 287 is two figures, taking them from top to bottom and in the lower right-hand corner, do you recognize those? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't.

At this point even you can say confidently that these two images are who the WCR understands to be Lee Oswald.  The top one is a pretty good image of the man, no?

The man's brother looks at this same image and says no, he does not recognize this man as his brother Lee, but more like Robert.  He SEEMS to remember what his brothers looked like their whole lives...

 

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

12 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

He mention's "Harvey" quite a bit

Not the "Harvey" you're referring to.

And for the final time, Jenner asked him point blank if he had anything to add to his testimony including mere opinions. Do you really expect us to believe that he was only hinting about two Oswalds when he could right out and say "Mr. Jenner it is my opinion there were two Oswalds at different times"? And why not take the opportunity when he was on the phone with Armstrong, the creator of the two Oswald theory, to report to him his belief in that very theory? Maybe because he believed no such thing.

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Normal for someone to change after years and years and have a former friend not recognize them? Seems normal to me and has happened to me many times.

Ah... only Warren Commission apologists are aware of the passage of time and that it can change a person's appearance?  Funny argument to make since Julian Evans clearly considered it--and rejected it.

Mr. EVANS - I think she's a fine woman, myself, a fine woman; intelligent, very soft spoken - a beautiful woman, with black hair streaked with a little gray, but when you saw her on television since this thing happened, she really looked awful; nothing at all like she used to look. She has really aged. She looked like a charwoman, compared to what she used to look like. She used to be a fashion plate. She dressed beautifully, but when we saw her on television just recently, after all this happened, she looked awful. There's no way to describe it, the change that has come over her. You wouldn't have recognized her if they hadn't told you who she was; she looked that different. Where her hair used to be black, now it's entirely gray, and she really looks Old
Mr. JENNER - Well, she's 57, I believe.
Mr. EVANS - That's right; she's the same age as my wife, but she looks about 70 now. That's about all I can remember about her, and then I saw this thing on television when the President was assassinated, and when it showed her picture, we just couldn't believe it was Marguerite.
 

[Jim Hargrove]

When John called John Pic, his only comment was "I stand by my Warren Commission testimony," which included this:

Mr. PIC - Well, sir; the Lee Harvey Oswald I met in November of 1962 was not the Lee Harvey Oswald I had known 10 years previous. This person struck me as someone with a chip on his shoulder, who had these purposes I mentioned, to do something about. 

Can you be much clearer than that?

[David Josephs]

3 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Not the "Harvey" you're referring to.

And for the final time, Jenner asked him point blank if he had anything to add to his testimony including mere opinions. Do you really expect us to believe that he was only hinting about two Oswalds when he could right out and say "Mr. Jenner it is my opinion there were two Oswalds at different times"? And why not take the opportunity when he was on the phone with Armstrong, the creator of the two Oswald theory, to report to him his belief in that very theory? Maybe because he believed no such thing.

So whether Pic believes it or not - or says it unprovoked - remains the linchpin top your conclusion?

Arguing about what people DIDN'T say is a terrible way to make a point Tracy.  Because someone did not ask a question YOU think they should have is non sequitur.
Here's a thought - stick with what is actually said, what the evidence actually shows... instead of repeatedly trying to explain it to us weighted down with the inaccuracies of your one sided approach to research.

Besides, you want to compare how many time the WC did not accept the testimony offered?

"Oswald couldn't have been at Odio's since he was on a bus to Mexico City" is a classic WCR conclusion.
"Bowen/Osborne tells them the man on the bus with him was not american nor even looked like Oswald" - the WC decided he was wrong.

So don't preach to us about what people DIDN'T say... stick with what they did say.  and what he did repeated say is the image the rest of us know as HARVEY OSWALD was not recognizable to his step-brother, as well as a number of people/relatives he sees upon his return from Russia.

Finally, it is exactly the HARVEY you were talking about.  In every case where he said NO, or looked like Oswald in 1962, we both know he was talking about Harvey.

The image on the left is the last verifiable photo of LEE OSWALD.

and that too may have been a composite

Let's look at this real quickly...  The man supposedly creates an application for a Passport ..  

As described in CE950, on Sept 4 he is in LA executing a passport application.  "In support of the application he furnished a paper from the separation Section...."
and right there on the application is the reference to the card he used...  yet those two images are not even close to each other.  We also know that image on 4271617 is from Russia and could not possibly have been on the original Lee Oswald card...  but the application proves the card existed in reality and probably had Lee's photo which was similar to the one on the passport.

Furthermore, the identical photo and signature is pasted into the Passport book... yet the staples are gone.  The signatures are in the same place, the image "almost" matches but not exactly...  

I have to run right now but will finish this thought later...

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Jim and Dave,

We have made or arguments and I am happy to let the reads here decide for themselves on this point.

Thanks