Does Lifton's Best Evidence indicate that the coverup and the crime were committed by the same people?

[Steve Thomas]

On 4/16/2017 at 10:33 PM, David Lifton said:

That's why the body had to be covertly diverted; and the result was that the First Lady of the United States, a grieving widow, ended up sitting in the rear compartment of Air Force One, surrounded by some of the late President's closest aide, sitting next to a Dallas coffin which--she thought--contained her husband's body, but which was in fact empty.

And that's why the body--by then having been altered--was already delivered to the Bethesda morgue at about 6:35 p.m. EST, 20 minutes before Jacqueline Kennedy and Robert Kennedy arrived at the front entrance of Bethesda in that naval ambulance, and containing the Dallas coffin which, as already noted, and unknown to Jacqueline Kennedy, was empty.

OUT-OF-CONTROL OR FAILED DECEPTION?

When you talk of matters getting so out of control that the Secret Service almost had to shoot the local coroner,... -they were acting on the orders of higher authority, and that means Vice President (and by then  President) Lyndon Johnson had issued instructions.

So it was he who must have given the order to get the body out of Parkland and over to Love Field, and not to permit an autopsy.... Not a plan to invade Cuba, but a plan to hide what happened in Dallas and tell the American people, and the entire world, a false story about how President Kennedy died.

 

David,

 

There's just no other way to explain the secrecy going on at Parkland.

The tunnels

Herding everyone into a central area

Taping over the windows so noone could see out

The fight over the coffin in the hallway

 

Steve Thomas

[Sandy Larsen]

48 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

Sandy,

I can't believe that the conspirators wanted a nuclear war with Russia.They wanted a good war in Vietnam (which would not involve millions of American civilian casualties). The secondary goal IMO was therefore to blame Castro, for an invasion of Cuba. And with the "proof" that the conspirators intended to have against Castro, Russia would not start a nuclear war by going to Castro's defense. (Though if they did, I guess LeMay and Lemnitzer at least would be happy.) But the conspirators could not follow through with the necessary "proof" when Oswald got arrested. So what they had to do was make Oswald go "poof" and blame the murder on him.

 

I see what you're saying Ron, and it is indeed hard to believe that smart people in the CIA would sign on to a plan that could escalate to nuclear war.

But then what are we to make of the Kostikov story? Kostikov was KGB, not a Castro agent. So the blame would go to the Russians, not Castro.

And the CIA was serious about making known the supposed Oswald/Kostikov connection. Otherwise why have Ruth Paine give a copy of that letter -- that connects Oswald to Kostikov -- to the authorities?

Do you believe there was evidence against Castro that was never revealed by the CIA?

 

[Thomas Graves]

14 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I see what you're saying Ron, and it is indeed hard to believe that smart people in the CIA would sign on to a plan that could escalate to nuclear war.

But then what are we to make of the Kostikov story? Kostikov was KGB, not a Castro agent. So the blame would go to the Russians, not Castro.

And the CIA was serious about making known the supposed Oswald/Kostikov connection. Otherwise why have Ruth Paine give a copy of that letter -- that connects Oswald to Kostikov -- to the authorities?

Do you believe there was evidence against Castro that was never revealed by the CIA?

 

So maybe Castro killed JFK and cleverly kinda blamed it on Mosow.

Which ties in with why I was trying to find out from well-read Trejo whether or not the 9/28 phone call had been proved to have come from Duran's phone inside the closed-on-Saturdays Cuban Consulate.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

1 minute ago, Thomas Graves said:

So maybe Castro killed JFK and cleverly kinda blamed it on Mosow

LOL, makes sense. Other than Castro having BOTH super-powers pissed off at him!

 

[Thomas Graves]

14 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

LOL, makes sense. Other than Castro having BOTH super-powers pissed off at him!

 

I know it's a crazy idea, but it might explain why both Duran and Azcue described the blond "Oswald" they'd dealt with in a way that closely resembled Mexico City-based KGB officer Nikolai Leonov.

 

And why the LI-FEAT (spelling?) documents Trejo referred to are still being withheld by CIA and the other CIA-DNS telephone tap documents "went missing." years ago.

And why ..... (lost my train of thought there for a minute)  ..... Nothing was said about Oswald's or "Oswald's" visit(s) to the Cuban Consulate in the Warren Commission's report, but his visit to the Soviet Embassy was spoken about, iirc. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Ron Ecker]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I see what you're saying Ron, and it is indeed hard to believe that smart people in the CIA would sign on to a plan that could escalate to nuclear war.

But then what are we to make of the Kostikov story? Kostikov was KGB, not a Castro agent. So the blame would go to the Russians, not Castro.

And the CIA was serious about making known the supposed Oswald/Kostikov connection. Otherwise why have Ruth Paine give a copy of that letter -- that connects Oswald to Kostikov -- to the authorities?

My guess is that the Kostkov business may be attributable to someone who did want to blame the Russians.The CIA was a criminal organization that was apparently infested with rogue agents. But whoever might have wanted to blame the Russians was not in charge of the plot. 

Do you believe there was evidence against Castro that was never revealed by the CIA?

We don't know what the plotters had up their sleeve to complete the frame-up of Oswald as a Castro agent/shooter because he got arrested and it all went down the toilet, just like Oswald's note to James Hosty.

 

 

 

 

[Paul Trejo]

In deference to the great David Lifton, many here are voting for a PLANNED pre-autopsy autopsy.  

Yet all these CTs would make more sense if the pre-autopsy autopsy was merely a hasty REACTION.  

After all, it was bungled so bad that all of its results had to be hidden for DECADES.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

My guess is that the Kostkov business may be attributable to someone who did want to blame the Russians.  

The CIA was a criminal organization that was apparently infested with rogue agents.

But whoever might have wanted to blame the Russians was not in charge of the plot. 

We don't know what the plotters had up their sleeve to complete the frame-up of Oswald as a Castro agent/shooter because he got arrested...

Ron,

I think we need to reconstruct the intellectual climate of Dallas in 1963.  These were not rocket scientists.

To blame Castro and to blame the USSR were one and the same act for the Radical Right in Dallas.

Whoever impersonated Oswald over that Mexico City telephone was part of the plot to kill JFK and blame the Communists..

Clearly that person was a CIA rogue -- and yet the plot that centered in NOLA and Dallas was not a CIA plot.  That CIA rogue had joined the Radical Right in NOLA at 544 Camp Street, and the Radical Right deep in the heart of Dallas.

The fact that it fell apart in so many places is evidence of a civilian plot.  A true CIA or Pentagon plot would have gone smoother.

JFK was expertly killed by a military-style ambush -- so we can easily conceive that an Army General conceived that part.  But all the rest -- the fallout on the streets -- that was not as well-planned -- that was left to the Dallas Police who just weren't very smooth.

So, at this point I'll finally disagree with you, Ron.  I say that whoever blamed the Communists was absolutely in charge of the plot.

The main point of the JFK assassination was to blame the Communists for it.  This was Dallas in 1963, so please think back to that place in those times.

It would have worked, too, except that some damn Yankee in Washington DC came up with that damn Lone Nutter theory.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Gerry Simone]

It's not like there was a letter FROM Kostikov (now THAT would be different).  

Oswald was made to look like an ambitious Commie wannabe and lapdog of Castro (he was made to look like he was trying to impress him but there's no evidence that he got any direction from him).

 

 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Gerry Simone
added "made to look like he was"

[Chris Newton]

On 4/5/2017 at 5:27 PM, Paul Trejo said:

That doesn't make sense to me.

No surprise there.

 

 

It should also come as no surprise, that a course of action didn't turn out as planned.  (see Murphy's law).

It was Johnson and Hoover that decided to pin it on Oswald alone not the treasonous cabal that planned the murder itself (not saying either of these men didn't have foreknowledge).

Would the extreme right, Cuban or Mafia assets have participated in any way shape or form in a conspiracy if it was revealed to them, before the fact, that the reality was that risking nuclear war with the USSR wasn't worth starting a major conflict with Cuba? I know it's shocking to you that people willing to murder a President could also mislead, lie and entice people to do assorted nefarious acts.

Killing Kennedy and the invasion of Cuba was a right wing wet dream. 1 out of 2 ain't bad.

 

We can speculate all day, but I believe that Oswald wasn't meant to survive his capture and that the combination of the "Raleigh Call" and "I'm a patsy" sealed his fate.

 

Recent history should educate you. lock her up. build a wall. drain the swamp. hold China's feet to the fire. NATO should pay. lies.

 

[Gerry Simone]

On 4/16/2017 at 6:16 AM, Thomas Graves said:

Were JFK's wounds altered in order to prevent WW III?

Ostensibly perhaps, but more to prevent a fuller investigation and/or promote the lone gunman scenario.

[Thomas Graves]

32 minutes ago, Gerry Simone said:

Ostensibly perhaps, but more to prevent a fuller investigation and/or promote the lone gunman scenario.

Ostensibly perhaps then I guess that kinda almost settles it.

Thanks for the "input".

Edited April 18, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

15 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy Larsen wrote --

"It is indeed hard to believe that smart people in the CIA would sign on to a plan that could escalate to nuclear war.

But then what are we to make of the Kostikov story? Kostikov was KGB, not a Castro agent. So the blame would go to the Russians, not Castro.

And the CIA was serious about making known the supposed Oswald/Kostikov connection. Otherwise why have Ruth Paine give a copy of that letter -- that connects Oswald to Kostikov -- to the authorities?

Do you believe there was evidence against Castro that was never revealed by the CIA?

...........................................................................................................................................

I posted this --

"Maybe Castro killed JFK and cleverly kinda blamed it on Mosow.

Which ties in with why I was trying to find out from well-read Trejo whether or not the 9/28 phone call has been proved to have come from a phone inside the closed-on-Saturdays Cuban Consulate."

............................................................................................................................................

And this --

"I know it's a crazy idea, but it might explain why both Duran and Azcue described the blond "Oswald" they'd dealt with in a way that closely resembled Mexico City-based KGB officer --  35-year-old, 5' 6", blond-haired, thin-bodied, very thin faced Nikolai Leonov.

And why the CIA's solo LI-FEAT program documents Trejo referred to are still being withheld, the joint CIA-DFS (LI-ENVOY) telephone tap documents "went missing." years ago.

And why ..... (lost my train of thought there for a minute)  ..... Nothing was said about Oswald's or "Oswald's" visit(s) to the Cuban Consulate in the Warren Commission's report, but the topic of his visiting the Soviet Embassy was broached, iirc."

bumped for comment, uncontroversial "take" that it is 

Edited April 18, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

48 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

bumped for comment, uncontroversial "take" that it is 

I'm surprised Jimmy Di Eugenio hasn't jumped in and said, "Please tell me you aren't serious.  You're joking, right?"

[Paul Trejo]

On 4/17/2017 at 3:19 AM, Cliff Varnell said:

If the goal of the plot was to frame some random lone nut why did they frame someone who was anything but?

This good question gets to the core of it.

The only reason for the pre-autopsy autopsy was to support the LN theory.

There was no other reason.

So the only real question is WHEN the LN theory was first conceived.

The LBJ-did-it CTer has NO CHOICE but to insist that it HAD TO BE conceived WEEKS in advance.

Yet it makes no sense to me -- why would anyone PLAN a Lone Nut scenario?  There was no Necessity for it.

The ONLY reason to push willy-nilly for a Lone Nut theory is when one is FORCED to push for it.

Here's why: the Military brass at Bethesda would easily fall in line for a last minute, National Security issue from LBJ to push a Lone Nut theory.  But they would never approve of assassination of a President weeks in advance, and prepare a pre-autopsy autopsy.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo