Does Lifton's Best Evidence indicate that the coverup and the crime were committed by the same people?

[Paul Trejo]

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

BUMPED for James DiEugenio

During the final week of September,1963, was Marina Oswald eight months pregnant, without health insurance, without money, without having seen a doctor yet, and with Lee Harvey Oswald out of work?

Yes or no?

BUMPED again for James DiEugenio

During the final week of September,1963, was Marina Oswald eight months pregnant, without health insurance, without money, without having seen a doctor yet, and with Lee Harvey Oswald out of work?

Yes or no?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On 4/20/2017 at 8:25 AM, David Lifton said:

...The Paine's have had it pretty rough. They were hosts to an individual who, unknown to them, was the predesignated fall guy in an upcoming presidential assassination.

This business of "blaming the Paines" offers a seriously mistaken (but superficially attractive) "conspiracy hypothesis" for those who are intellectually lazy, and whose problem is that they never got to the bottom of this particular aspect of the JFK puzzle, and I'm concerned that it may get worse before it gets better.  Unsolved crimes offer fertile ground for rumor mongering and demagoguery.  Especially for those who are basically cowards, but have a secret desire to present themselves as a man on a white horse.

 Stay tuned.

DSL

4/20/2017 - 6:15 a.m. PDT

Los Angeles, California

David,

I agree with this 100%.   Clearly, James DiEugenio's work for 25 years fits this "blaming the Paines" intellectual laziness.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On 4/21/2017 at 11:31 AM, Paul Brancato said:

....Oswald's exact relationship with FBI is an enduring mystery. Why was Oswald removed from the FBI watch list? Why was Hosty officially in the dark about Oswald's movements?  Makes no sense. 

Paul B.,

It makes more sense when one recognizes that James Hosty was part of the team to frame Lee Harvey Oswald -- going all the way back to April 1963.   Hosty was in a special position to do this -- having access to tons of inside information from the CIA -- and from the Radical Right.

According to his book, Assignment Oswald (1996), Dallas FBI agent James Hosty was assigned to monitor the Radical Right in Fort Worth and Dallas, and paid special attention to General Walker "and his Minutemen" in Dallas.  

Working for Walker inside his own home for two years was Robert Alan Surrey, secret Nazi, and also (according to Penn Jones Jr.) a bridge partner of James Hosty for several years.

A Radical Right plot that turned Dallas FBI and SS agents best explains all the mysteries about the FBI and Lee Harvey Oswald, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 22, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On 4/21/2017 at 0:18 PM, David Lifton said:

<Chris Newton asked>
...How did SA Hosty know that Oswald was not living with the Paines before he made his pretext visit?

DSL RESPONSE: Because he had done some preliminary investingation, in the neighborhood. As I recall, he mentioned this somewhere in his testimony. he made that determination by questioning some neighbors.

...Oswald was following the instructions of a handler. He wrote the letter in the manner he did, because it was a provocation that was deliberately written and intended to be "discovered."  In other words, he "played" Ruth Paine. (And, he got the better of her.  She discovered the letter, which was intended to be found, read it, and was very irritated, if not infuriated, by what she read. Here was a man telling lies (remeber: she didn't believe he had gone to Mexico City) and was writing this bizarre letter that was filled with what were, to her, outrageous fictions, and doing so on her typewriter, and in her home.  Bottom line: this was a set-up, it was designed to provoke Ruth Paine, and it worked.

The letter was mailed from Irving on the 12th when LHO was in Dallas. Who mailed it?

These events took place over a 3-day weekend, and November 11, a Monday, was Veterans Day. So Lee's first day of work was Tuesday, November 12th, and it was on that morning that Frazier drove him back to Dallas, and to work. So Lee had all day Monday, Novmeber 11th, to mail the letter in any neighborhood postal box, or even on Tuesday morning, November 12th, on his way over to Randle's place, to get his ride to work.

Why would Oswald type this letter in the first place?

...Lee Oswald was a pre-selected fall-guy, and under the guidance and control of a handler., That very likely means there was someone in the Irving, Texas, area, who was available to meet with Oswald (clandestinely) and assist him and advise im in engaging in this sort of thing. Of course (and again, if I'm correct), Lee Oswald was completely unaware that he (too) was being played, and being set up.He never suspected that he was being set up, and would be betrayed by a handler.

...When she discovered the letter, Ruth's perception of the situation -- as she explained -- was that Lee Oswald weird, and -- most important, as she testified, she just didn't believe him.  So that's why I believe she didn't feel compelled to run to the FBI with the letter. As she made clear, she thought she had "a L-i-a-r" on her hands; not someone involved in espionage.  And you don't go to the FBI just because an acquaintance of yours is behaving like a L-i-a-r. After the assassination, she did turn the second item over to the FBI, within two days. As she said, she was fed up with it, and wanted to be done with it...

 DSL

4/21/2017 - 10:35 a.m. PDT

Los Angeles, California

David,

I agree with all these answers 100%.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

I haven't encountered a CTer yet who gives a damn about the question of "WHERE DID THOSE TWO BULLETS GO?" They just don't care....

I haven't yet encountered an LNer who gives a damn about the question, "HOW DID THE MAGIC BULLET PASS THROUGH THE KNOT OF THE TIE WITHOUT MAKING A HOLE?" They just don't care.

(And BTW Davey, we do indeed care where those bullets went and have discussed the possibilities in great detail. So what you said about CTers is just plain wrong.)

 

[Paul Trejo]

On 4/20/2017 at 9:16 PM, Chris Newton said:

...Questions: 

If Lee Oswald typed this letter in the dining area and was so cautious of it’s contents, why was the rough draft left on the desk secretary in the living room? The door to the garage was three steps from the dining table.

Speaking of the desk secretary, it is a major part of Ruth’s story that it and the couch were rearranged in the living room but it magically appears in one of her statements in the dining area? 

Chris,

I don't know if you've ever taken a tour of Ruth Paine's house (as the City of Irving now offers these tours for a small fee).  It's a very small, suburban, two-bedroom house with a single-car garage.

As for the dining "area," it was really just a corner of the kitchen, which was next to the living room.  So it's easy to speak of these areas in different ways.

Also that weekend, Ruth Paine had asked Michael Paine and Lee Harvey Oswald to move furniture around for her.  So, her secretary desk was being moved around too -- in that space between the kitchen and the living room -- also called a dining area.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

PT: Compared to your one-sided, biased, dogmatic opinions about the JFK murder -- including your failed Probe Magazine and CTKA web site -- Cliff Varnelli is a genius.

You've read Jim Garrison's works thoroughly -- and you've misinterpreted them thoroughly.   Jim Garrison also made many mistakes in his JFK research, and you remain faithful to those mistakes.  He can be forgiven since he was an innovator -- you cannot.  

Listen to David Lifton -- re-read the Lopez Report -- re-read Bill Simpich's State Secret, re-read Ruth Paine's WC testimony and FBI interviews. Set aside your dogmatism for a change.   And curb your dog.

Paul, 

First, nice pivot by you.  You completely ignored  my post which effectively countered what Lifton and DVP said about the filing cabinets at the Paine garage. 

Probe failed? That is one of your most uninformed comments, which is saying a lot. It ran for seven years.  It was sold on newsstands in the LA area.  When it halted publication people were mourning it, including Oliver Stone.  Probe ceased publication because its main reason for being, the ARRB, concluded. We had done just about all we could with their work.

CTKA failed?  It still exists, except we changed its name and format.  Its now called Kennedysandking.com  You should read it, you might learn something.

I made not one comment about reading Garrison's works.  Anyone can read his books--I mean he only wrote two of them on the JFK case.  What I was referring to was consulting primary sources, not secondary ones. Which means you have to go to New Orleans or to NARA.  For instance, if you read my review of Carpenter's essay on Max Holland's site, about half the stuff in my essay is outside of Garrisons' book.  Same thing with my discussion of Ed Epstein there.  Which again, you apparently have not read. 

As per listening to LIfton, I mean you did not notice what he just wrote about those filing cabinets? He just accused me of being a rumor mongerer  about them. When, in fact, it was him who was recycling some WR malarkey about them.  And he did that without consulting the primary sources; which prove him wrong.

Edited April 22, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Chris Newton]

1 minute ago, Paul Trejo said:

Also that weekend, Ruth Paine had asked Michael Paine and Lee Harvey Oswald to move furniture around for her.  So, her secretary desk was being moved around too -- in that space between the kitchen and the living room -- also called a dining area.

 

 

You really never research anything do you? You are like the Sean Spicer of this forum.

 

Please find me one citation that says they ever moved the desk secretary from the kitchen area.

 

[Paul Trejo]

On 4/20/2017 at 9:16 PM, Chris Newton said:

...Bonus Question:

This research also revealed that SA Hosty parked his car in front of the unoccupied house next door on both the Nov. 1 and Nov. 5th visits. How was Marina able to “get the drop on the FBI” and sneak out to copy Hosty’s license plate number?

Chris,

Marina Oswald confessed that she sneaked out the back and copied the license plate of Hosty's car that day -- as instructed by Lee Harvey Oswald.  Here's her testimony.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the agent also give his license number for his car to Mrs. Paine or to you or to your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. But Lee had asked me that if an FBI agent were to call, that I note down his automobile license number, and I did that.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you give the license number to him when you noted it down?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Marina told the same to Priscilla Johnson in different words.   Here's what Johnson wrote:

...It could have been while Hosty and the other agent were at the doorway before they came in the house -- Marina slipped out of the bedroom, in the the kitchen and dining area, out of the kitchen door, and around the house.  She had no trouble finding Hosty's car, and without the smallest feeling of being in a hurry -- "I'm a sneaky girl," she laughs -- she walked around and around it, trying to figure out what make it was.  This she was unable to do because she could not read English.  But she...memorized the license number.  Then she came back inside the house...she wrote the number on a slip of paper and left it for Lee on their bureau.  MARINA AND LEE, (p. 496)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 22, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

19 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Emphasis in the above is mine.

Jim Garrison wasn't allowed to investigate the murder of JFK -- save his interviews with Dealey Plaza witnesses and his questioning of Col Finck.

Other than that, it was all about investigating the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.

No doubt you [James DiEugenio] have done considerable work on LHO, but given the compartmentalization of intelligence operations you are clueless when it comes to the murder of Kennedy.

Cliff,

FWIW, I agree with this language.  The murders of JFK and the murders of Lee Harvey Oswald were separate -- quite distinct -- and the best way to explain them is separately.

Jack Ruby, in my CT, was not even involved until after Lee Oswald was arrested (i.e. he escaped J.D. Tippit's shooting).  

According to Dallas reporter Seth Kantor, who who knew Jack Ruby for years, the role of Jack Ruby was limited to a last-minute murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, as directed by rogue members of the Dallas Police, who strenuously persuaded this underworld pimp, Jack Ruby, to take a wild gamble for national heroism (see Kantor's book, Who Was Jack Ruby? (1978)).

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

Nice one Chris.  Just like some people do not do mornings, PT does not do research.

Let me also address the idea that PT and DSL have about the Paines as being "put upon".  I really do not know where this comes from or what it is based upon.  Kennedy was killed in 1963.  In no book that I can recall of the first generation, did anyone even lay a glove on the Paines.  This includes Weisberg, Meagher, Lane, Popkin or Thompson. And in none of their other books, did Lane or Weisberg do any kind of inquiry on them.

In  the next second generation books, you will see the same e.g. Henry Hurt, Anthony Summers, Phil Melanson. In fact, the HSCA never interviewed the Paines. Neither did the ARRB.  This takes us up to the nineties.  In other words, 30 years later.  This is being "put upon"? 

The first books that ever sustained focus at all on the Paines were by Evica and Douglass--both published in the new millennium!    That is, respectively, 2006 and 2007. In other words, it took FORTY YEARS  for anything to get out there in book form. Geez, this is being "put upon"?

In my opinion, its the opposite. There were more suspicions and inquiry into George DeMohrenschildt than the Paines in those intervening years.  Much more actually. 

So this idea, that somehow the Paines have been persecuted for decades is simply up a tree.  The Paines have voluntarily interjected themselves into this case at many, many intervals.  And they have done this from the very beginning.  And they have done so always at the expense of Oswald. In fact, they were the first to come out with the ridiculous motive of Oswald wanting to show the world he was a "big man" by killing Kennedy.  When, in fact, Oswald actually liked Kennedy. 

In my view, the evidentiary record did not at all justify ignoring them.  I mean, not when Allen Dulles' friends were volunteering as character references for the Paines for the WC. (Evica, p. 257)

 

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Chris Newton]

8 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Chris,

Marina Oswald confessed that she sneaked out the back and copied the license plate of Hosty's car that day -- as instructed by Lee Harvey Oswald.  Here's here testimony.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the agent also give his license number for his car to Mrs. Paine or to you or to your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. But Lee had asked me that if an FBI agent were to call, that I note down his automobile license number, and I did that.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you give the license number to him when you noted it down?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Marina told the same to Priscilla Johnson in different words.   Here's what Johnson wrote:

...It could have been while Hosty and the other agent were at the doorway before they came in the house -- Marina slipped out of the bedroom, in the the kitchen and dining area, out of the kitchen door, and around the house.  She had no trouble finding Hosty's car, and without the smallest feeling of being in a hurry -- "I'm a sneaky girl," she laughs -- she walked around and around it, trying to figure out what make it was.  This she was unable to do because she could not read English.  But she...memorized the license number.  Then she came back inside the house...she wrote the number on a slip of paper and left it for Lee on their bureau.  MARINA AND LEE, (p. 496)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

So Paul,

If the front door was open and Ruth was standing there speaking to SA's Hosty and Wilson, how exactly would Marina "sneak" out unless she was already in the dining area. You know where the "backdoor" is that leads to the backyard right?

How long does it take to sneak out, go next door and out to the street to "walk around and around it" (the car -sic) and get back in the house so that Hosty can give her a "nod" while she's standing behind Ruth, per Hosty's testimony?

The reason I ask is that SA Hosty says on Nov. 5th he was at the Paines 1-2 minutes.

Maybe she dressed in a ninja suit and she took speed walking lessons from her husband?

[Paul Trejo]

14 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

David L.,

It's clear from Buddy Walthers' Warren Commission testimony that Walthers was NOT talking about the great big type of "filing cabinets" that you'd find in offices. He specifically used the word "LITTLE" before he used the words "FILE CABINETS". And he then goes on to describe in more detail the size of those "cabinets" [see 7 H 548]....

"...and then we found some little metal file cabinets—I don't know what kind you would call them—they would carry an 8 by 10 folder, all right, but with a single handle on top of it and the handle moves." -- Buddy Walthers; July 23, 1964

Also see:
jfk-archives.blogspot.com/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-87/File-Cabinets

DVP
4/22/2017; 3:48 a.m. EDT
Mooresville, Indiana USA

DVP,

Unfortunately, it was not very clear during the past half-century.  Buddy Walthers deliberately exaggerated his case of these four, "little" metal index card holders, calling them "six or seven metal filing cabinets full of the names of Castro sympathizers."

Buddy Walthers was eager to promote a Communist Oswald and a Communist Ruth and Michael Paine.  

Thus, it seems to me that Buddy Walthers was working (like James Hosty and Robert Alan Surrey were working) in the political direction of Ex-General Edwin Walker of Dallas (as well as Guy Banister in New Orleans).

The effort to blame the Communists for the JFK assassination continues in a CT down to this very day -- despite the best efforts of J. Edgar Hoover to nip it in the bud.

Buddy Walthers was indeed -- as you rightly note -- referring to those four "little" metal index card holders.  But the error did not belong to anybody else; it started with Buddy Walthers trying to get away with something.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

Just who will PT NOT ally himself with in his desperate attempts to distort and deny the record?

Let's see, first LIfton, then Varnell, then DVP.  Even though none of them agree with his ideas on the case.

And its like he does not even notice it.

Now, with the above, he completely ignores the adduced record which I noted above which I sourced above.  And which in the context of Buddy's report would simply be absolutely wrong for the information he said they conveyed.  But that makes no difference to Paulie.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Nice one again, Chris. I like the Ninja suit humor.

How about this one by PT:  The murders of JFK and the murders of Lee Harvey Oswald were separate -- quite distinct -- and the best way to explain them is separately.

LOL ROTF 

Anyone who thinks this is simply so far out there they are around the bend. Once LHO escaped his fate at the Texas Theater, it was simply a matter of time until Ruby polished him off.  Oswald's call to John Hurt on Saturday night was probably the last straw.

I mean you are aware of Ruby's posing as a reporter at the station on Friday night and correcting Wade on the name of Oswald's committee?  I mean that does not tell you something? You are aware that he was then there on Saturday? He was then there on early Sunday morning?  That it was his idea for Carlin to call him?  That the Western Union station could be clearly seen out the back of the station? That the HSCA found a policeman who swore that there was no way on earth Ruby came down the Main Street ramp? That films show Ruby hiding behind someone before Oswald comes out? 

The idea that Ruby and Oswald did not know each other is also malarkey. The DPD got rid of some of that evidence also.

Far from being separate, the two events were directly related.  In more than one way.  If you look at at the results of Ruby's polygraph, as analyzed by the HSCA, you will see the giveaways.

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by James DiEugenio