‘The Brothers’ by Stephen Kinzer - anyone read it?

[Cliff Varnell]

8 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Anyone who thinks Allen Dulles was not in shape at the time of the WC does not understand what the WC was up to.

Dulles was in the middle of almost every major subterfuge that that ignominious body took it upon itself to perform.

To name just two : 1)  The Baker/Truly cover up, and 2.) The false positioning of JFK's head at the point of impact.

And as everyone knows, behind the scene he was commiserating with Angleton about the cover up of Oswald as an intel agent.

Kinzer's book just blows by all of that.

It takes years for Alzheimers to incapacitate.

Here's an Allen Alzheimers moment during the WC testimony of Dr. Charles Carrico:

<quote on, emphasis added>

Mr. Specter:  Will you describe, as specifically as you can then, the neck wounds which you heretofore mentioned briefly?
Dr. CARRICO. There was a small wound, 5- to 8-mm. in size, located in the lower third of the neck, below the thyroid cartilage, the Adams apple.

Mr. Dulles:  Will you show us about where it was?
Dr. CARRICO. Just about where your tie would be.

Mr. Dulles:  Where did it enter?
Dr. CARRICO.  It entered?

Mr. Dulles:  Yes.
Dr. CARRICO. At the time we did not know.

<quote off>

Dulles forgot one of the central claims of the cover-up!

[James DiEugenio]

No he didn't Cliff.

 

He was in the middle of the reversal of the trajectory of this bullet.

Along with Elmer Moore.  And Specter.  And all you have to do is read the questioning of the key witness, and its not Carrico. 

Read what he does with Malcolm Perry.  Its brutal.  And it concludes with a a bit of Gerorge Orwell.

[Roger DeLaria]

Thanks for the info. I remember hearing alzheimers mentioned, but I've never really put any stock in it. He was clearly more than mentally fit based on what he carried out. Physically, I don't know. Didn't he die about 4-5 yrs later in 68?

Edited April 10, 2017 by Roger DeLaria

[Glenn Nall]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Anyone who thinks Allen Dulles was not in shape at the time of the WC does not understand what the WC was up to.

Dulles was in the middle of almost every major subterfuge that that ignominious body took it upon itself to perform.

To name just two : 1)  The Baker/Truly cover up, and 2.) The false positioning of JFK's head at the point of impact.

And as everyone knows, behind the scene he was commiserating with Angleton about the cover up of Oswald as an intel agent.

Kinzer's book just blows by all of that.

right. didn't really occur to me that anyone would think he was not of his complete faculties. I happen to think that he was, in some ways, even more powerful since his dismissal, with all those inconvenient restraints removed. It's pretty clear he still had a loyal following from within the CIA ranks, Tracy Barnes, et al. So...

to not understand - or to deny - Dulles' senior (to say the least) role in the Warren Commission is admit some pretty weak research. hell, he'd only been removed from office less than two years prior, right? It's not like he went into a mental tailspin at that point.

it's probably a great example of how literature (is it fair to call books of this nature literature?) can be used to tell us what to think - facts be damned. Just look at how Mark Lane's work was handled when he wrote some inconvenient truths.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Glenn Nall

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

No he didn't Cliff.

He most certainly did in that moment.

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

He was in the middle of the reversal of the trajectory of this bullet.

During his questioning of Carrico?

That's not how it reads.

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Along with Elmer Moore.  And Specter.  And all you have to do is read the questioning of the key witness, and its not Carrico. 

Read what he does with Malcolm Perry.  Its brutal.  And it concludes with a a bit of Gerorge Orwell.

Carrico was a primary throat wound witness, and in a lapse Dulles asked where the bullet entered the throat.

Carrico was clearly taken aback.

It was a moment of forgetfulness, doesn't mean he forgot completely.

 

[Glenn Nall]

interestingly (well to some), i came across this book review from an article - https://sharylattkisson.com/that-time-china-interfered-with-u-s-elections/ - by the great Sharyl Attkisson  which was pointing out that China was much more egregious in its attempts to subvert our elections than Russia was - and that we've ALL been doing this for decades. 

here's a neat little paragraph:

The [Washington] Post [of all publications!] reported evidence of China directing contributions to the Democratic National Committee (DNC) during the presidential contest between Bill Clinton and Republican Bob Dole—a violation of U.S. law. Eventually, Taiwan-born Maria Hsia, a fundraiser for Clinton Vice President Al Gore, was convicted of illegal campaign fundraising; Taiwan-born Charlie Trie was convicted of improperly attempting to give large donations to the Clinton’s legal defense fund; Taiwan-born Johnny Chung was convicted of violating election law after making large donations to the DNC (which were later returned); and Chinese-born John Huang—a DNC fundraiser and Commerce Department official in the Clinton administration—was convicted of campaign finance fraud.

Sharyl made the cutest remark at the beginning of her article: "...because intelligence officials I trust tell me that Russia and other nations have attempted to influence our elections for decades, the same way we’ve often dabbled in influencing foreign elections."

cute, huh (I really love Sharyl's work, especially since she's suing Eric Holder for yet more of his typical behavior - https://sharylattkisson.com/attkisson-v-eric-holder-department-of-justice-et-al - , but...). I tweeted to her the names Allende, Lumumba, Diem, and a few others, and wondered if that was what constitutes "dabbling."

later in the article she links to The WashPo's https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/10/13/the-long-history-of-the-u-s-interfering-with-elections-elsewhere/?utm_term=.f5e1d326ed5f which did clarify what dabbling means when it comes to Assassinating world leaders, and in which John Foster Dulles, and this book, and Kissinger are mentioned.

God. how did i get so far off topic...???

[Roger DeLaria]

As I understand back in the 1950s, whenever John Foster Dulles wanted something done in a foreign country, he would say to Allen "We'll just send Ed (Lansdale) over there to take care of it." 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Roger DeLaria

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Glenn Nall said:

right. didn't really occur to me that anyone would think he was not of his complete faculties.

Dulles was in such command of his faculties that he bailed on the Bay of Pigs operation to spend that weekend in Puerto Rico with his wife -- and upon returning expressed little interest in the unfolding disaster.

 

[Chris Newton]

On 4/9/2017 at 1:13 PM, Glenn Nall said:

anyone read it? comments? anything 'JFK Ass.' notable?

Glenn,

Only one short chapter in the book deals with all of the events concerning Cuba, Fidel, Kennedy, the bay of pigs (puts the blame on Bissell) and the JFK assassination. The same short chapter covers Dulles' retirement and activities up until his death. The chapter (pg.s 507-549) gives everything such a short shrift that, it seems like Kinzer simply wasn't interested in detailing anything except the canceled BoP airstrike debacle.

 

[Glenn Nall]

4 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Dulles was in such command of his faculties that he bailed on the Bay of Pigs operation to spend that weekend in Puerto Rico with his wife -- and upon returning expressed little interest in the unfolding disaster.

 

"feigned" - the phrase would be "feigned little interest in the disaster," Cliff. a subtle, but important, difference.

[James DiEugenio]

There is no doubt that the most important witness about the throat wound is Perry.  For multiple reasons.

First, he did the tracheotomy over it.  He made a mental note of its dimensions.  Third, he was the spokesman at the 11/22 press conference as to its directionality.  And he said three times it appeared to be a frontal wound of entry.  

That testimony was so damaging to the WC ideas that it was hidden by both the Secret Service, who lied to the WC about where the transcript was, and by the White House, who got a copy and took it to the LBJ Library instead of to the Kennedy Library.

But Roger Feinman at CBS found it when they were doing their CBS specials. 

Now, point 2 is that the harangue against Perry seems to have begun that very night.  As Nurse Bowron told the ARRB, Perry looked like he was up all night when he went to work on the 23rd.  And he hinted to her that he was.  The next line of attack on Perry was through Elmer Moore, the Secret Service agent who the Warren Commission moved into Dallas to begin the formal part of the cover up. One of his two main functions was to weaken the medical testimony of the ER witnesses, especially Malcolm Perry since his was the most serious problem they had.  In fact, later on, when talking to a Church Committee witness, Moore was racked with both rage and guilt over what he did to Perry to get him to neuter his story about the frontal wound. He justified what he did by screaming that JFK was a commie symp.

It was not easy to neutralize Perry because he had a lot of experience with gunshot wounds, he said he saw between 150-200 victims.  But Elmer Moore did a good job in this two stage operation.  Because when he was asked his opinion about the direction of the neck wound for the WC, suddenly the good doctor really did not know if it was entry or exit. (Vol. 3, p. 373)  And when Specter gave him his whole double whammy SBF concept, Perry was all too willing to say that hey, the neck wound could have been an exit wound for that magic bullet. In other words, for purposes of the Single Bullet Fantasy, the wound he described on 11/22  three times as one of entry, has now turned into an exit!

Towards the end of the dog and pony show, Specter gets around to the press conference on the 22nd.  Perry now goes back on that one also and he says that his answer was somehow misconstrued or he should not have been so affirmative about it. But Allen Dulles is not satisfied.  He actually wants Specter to send Perry each and every instance where the doctor was quoted as saying the neck wound was an entrance wound and he wants Perry to write a denial to each outlet for each instance! (p. 377-78)  Truly a task of historical rewrite.

Dulles thought he was still DCI if you ask me.  Which, as Talbot reveals, in several ways he was.  He sure was the major player on the WC. Kinzer is a up a tree on that.

 

[Cliff Varnell]

12 hours ago, Glenn Nall said:

"feigned" - the phrase would be "feigned little interest in the disaster," Cliff. a subtle, but important, difference.

That wasn't the impression of the guy who picked him up at the airport.

[Glenn Nall]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

That wasn't the impression of the guy who picked him up at the airport.

hence the word "feign."

wow, Cliff. it's a truly unique position for any conspiracy theorist to defend Allen effin' Dulles, i gotta hand it to ya.

[Cliff Varnell]

21 minutes ago, Glenn Nall said:

hence the word "feign."

wow, Cliff. it's a truly unique position for any conspiracy theorist to defend Allen effin' Dulles, i gotta hand it to ya.

That's because I'm not a "conspiracy theorist."

Just the facts, please,

Why would Dulles "feign" disinterest in the largest operation of his career?  What was the point in that?

Why did he spend D-Day-1, D-Day, and part of D-Day +1 in Puerto Rico?

When he returned why did he go home to have a drink and talk about anything but the BOP with the guy who picked him up at the airport?

 

[Glenn Nall]

53 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

That's because I'm not a "conspiracy theorist."

Just the facts, please,

Why would Dulles "feign" disinterest in the largest operation of his career?  What was the point in that?

Why did he spend D-Day-1, D-Day, and part of D-Day +1 in Puerto Rico?

When he returned why did he go home to have a drink and talk about anything but the BOP with the guy who picked him up at the airport?

 

you know what i mean, Cliff. i mean any non-Lone nut theorist.

you were born to argue, weren't you Cliff.

i'm not the one, sir.