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George Sawtelle

Kennedy vs Dulles; Dulles won, USA lost

30 posts in this topic

It was Kennedy against the Washington establishment in 1963. Dulles, retired president Eisenhower, stab-in-the-back LBJ, who wanted to stay out of jail, southern folk, joint-chiefs-of staff, CIA, Hoover, right wingers, Rowley and the SS, steel companies, bankers, wall street, anti-Castro Cubans, everybody including the kitchen sink. So when they heard the old man (the devil) will take care of it they kept their mouth shut and waited.

Kennedy, except for his brother and a few trusted advisors, was alone. He was isolated only because he worked for peace.

Its been near impossible for researchers to break through and get at the truth. In the 60´s it wasn´t only the CIA stonewalling, it was also the influential citizens of Wash DC and their friends in the media who put up a steel curtain against the truth. And 50 plus years later it´s the same

The same type of characters are still running our government. The CIA is more powerfull than ever. The president checks with the CIA before he makes a decision on foreign policy. Our pres ignores congress and goes to war egged on by the CIA and neocons. If the pres strays a little by seeking peace with Russia they bring him quickly back in line. Once the CIA begins to demand a greater voice on domestic policy look out.

When the truth about the assassination comes out I believe change will come.

 

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2 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

It was Kennedy against the Washington establishment in 1963. Dulles, retired president Eisenhower, stab-in-the-back LBJ, who wanted to stay out of jail, southern folk, joint-chiefs-of staff, CIA, Hoover, right wingers, Rowley and the SS, steel companies, bankers, wall street, anti-Castro Cubans, everybody including the kitchen sink. So when they heard the old man (the devil) will take care of it they kept their mouth shut and waited.

So crafty ol' Allen Dulles set up family friends of his mistress (the Paines) as handlers of a potential red agent?

What would they said of Ruth Paine if Oswald had been killed immediately and labeled an agent of Fidel?

Dulles suffered from on-set Alzheimers but he couldn't have been that crazy.

No doubt Dulles was a major player in the cover-up, but no one in their right mind would frame people so close to them.

 

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No doubt Dulles was a major player in the cover-up, but no one in their right mind would frame people so close to them.

I dunno - this was the Dulles who also sent Noel Field to be arrested in Russia, and Field's whole family fell into that trap after him.  The Field mission was an intellectual exercise compared with replacing a president.

Your comment, though, shows one of the problems of the Castro-did-it scenario.  As has been noted. the majority of Oswald's known friends were not comsymps.

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Cliff

Maybe Ruth Paine was not and never has been a CIA agent. And maybe Oswald was unknown to Dulles.

Paine´s interest in Marina was based on Paine´s religion, which of course was Quaker. At the time the Quaker´s helped people, especially those from foreign countries.

Oswald was not an agent of the CIA. He was a contract employee (201 file). There is evidence that his handler  was CIA agent David Phillips. I doubt Dulles paid any attention to low level contract agents.  

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BTW George, you saw how the other Commissioners blew up the facts that Dulles was so close to the Paines, right?

And that he also knew about DeMohrenschildt?

One crackerjack investigation eh?  Especially with Dulles and his lifelong buddy McCloy running things.

I agree with what you said in general George.  

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3 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

Cliff

Maybe Ruth Paine was not and never has been a CIA agent. And maybe Oswald was unknown to Dulles.

Paine´s interest in Marina was based on Paine´s religion, which of course was Quaker. At the time the Quaker´s helped people, especially those from foreign countries.

Oswald was not an agent of the CIA. He was a contract employee (201 file). There is evidence that his handler  was CIA agent David Phillips. I doubt Dulles paid any attention to low level contract agents.  

But if Dulles were the mastermind of the JFK assassination and cover-up how could he not know about Oswald?

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Cliff

Doesn´t work that way. Dulles recruited people to help him plan the assassination. He was the CEO. His people did the planning, hired the hitman and the forgers, set up the patsy and all the other tasks needed so that Kennedy was present at the location where he was to be killed.

I believe it was David Phillips who planned the assassination. He gave Dulles all the info on the assassination, i.e., number of shooters, number of shots, and their locations in Dealey Plaza and other pertinent data so that Dulles knew what to look for to cover it up. As the Warren Commission progressed, Dulles would do what was necessary to beef up the lone nut theory. If Dulles needed more info he would consult with Phillips. For several months after the assassination the investigation was centered in Wash DC and Dulles was right there. After the report was complete, he made the rounds to defend it.

All Dulles needed to pull it off was Phillips, a few contract agents, the backing of the US Army and various resources from the CIA which I believe were made available to him. The CIA, the agency itself, was not involved. They did help Dulles in the cover-up. 

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31 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said:

Cliff

Doesn´t work that way. Dulles recruited people to help him plan the assassination. He was the CEO. His people did the planning, hired the hitman and the forgers, set up the patsy and all the other tasks needed so that Kennedy was present at the location where he was to be killed.

I believe it was David Phillips who planned the assassination. He gave Dulles all the info on the assassination, i.e., number of shooters, number of shots, and their locations in Dealey Plaza and other pertinent data so that Dulles knew what to look for to cover it up.

That the patsy was being handled by a Dulles family friend was a detail that Phillips withheld?

How is that not "pertinent data"?

31 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said:

 

As the Warren Commission progressed, Dulles would do what was necessary to beef up the lone nut theory. If Dulles needed more info he would consult with Phillips. For several months after the assassination the investigation was centered in Wash DC and Dulles was right there. After the report was complete, he made the rounds to defend it.

All Dulles needed to pull it off was Phillips, a few contract agents, the backing of the US Army and various resources from the CIA which I believe were made available to him. The CIA, the agency itself, was not involved. They did help Dulles in the cover-up. 

It's just me, I guess, but I find it impossible to buy the notion that the mastermind of the Kennedy assassination didn't know anything about Lee Harvey Oswald.

The field team which actually killed Kennedy had no knowledge or connection to Oswald, but the guy who put it all together had to know,

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Cliff

I take your question to mean  ... would Phillips withhold information on Oswald from Dulles since his good friend Ruth Paine was spying on Oswald´s family?

If Dulles needed to know about Oswald then of course Phillips would inform him. If he didn´t need to know then he wouldn´t inform him.

Paine met Oswald and his wife after he returned from the USSR. If Paine was not a CIA agent, why would it be necessary for Dulles to know about her relationship with Oswald and his family? After Dulles was let go he would be out of touch with his daily CIA activities eventhough he was the defacto leader. He had much more pressing issues to deal with than Oswald. I don´t believe he needed to know about Oswald.

Dulles was not the mastermind of the assassination. Phillips was. And since Phiilips was Oswald´s handler, he knew Oswald.

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Cliff

If Dulles hired Paine, his acquaintence, as a CIA agent and gave her the Oswald assignment, that would be very stupid on his part. I don´t think he is that dumb. The only logical explanation is that Dulles didn´t know Paine was helping Oswald and his family. And that Phillips didn´t know Paine was a friend of Dulles.

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Posted (edited)

Who gained more by JFK's death?

Castro and the Russians?

Or LBJ, Hoover ( whom JFK was replacing after a 2nd term win) the CIA and it's long time hierarchy which Kennedy vowed to scatter to the winds, the Mafia which Hoover protected, Texas oil ( world's richest men at the time )  those who viciously hated blacks ( including Secret Service ) and saw JFK  as their protector and promoter, old guard military leadership who considered JFK to be an upstart who dared talked down to them, cold war MIC which had a total bag man in LBJ, extreme right wing nuts ( also racist ) like Walker-Banister, Eastern establishment wealth who felt JFK'S foreign and even domestic policy sympathies ( think Federal Reserve )  might truly threaten their interests and influence, JFK hating and blaming anti-Castro Cubans ... and on and on and on.

The wealthiest oil families celebrated JFK's brutal slaughter ( Murcheson maid May Newman - "The champagne and caviar flowed like for a week" ) as did hundreds of thousands if not millions of black hating southerners ( so many poor ) including school children who cheered in their classrooms at the news!

JFK was viciously hated by millions in his own country and society much more than anyone outside of it. To a murder celebrating degree!

JFK's slaughter should have much more awakened us all to the true reality of how sick with hatred and arrogantly corrupted our country and society had become in JFK's time.

And include the unprecedented corruption of our constitutional democracy 3 tiered balance government by non-elected groups whose power and influence was superseding those three and had even compromised our truth seeking fourth estate.

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

Cliff

If Dulles hired Paine, his acquaintence, as a CIA agent and gave her the Oswald assignment, that would be very stupid on his part. I don´t think he is that dumb. The only logical explanation is that Dulles didn´t know Paine was helping Oswald and his family. And that Phillips didn´t know Paine was a friend of Dulles.

I'd suggest another explanation: Allen Dulles and Ruth Paine were both on the patsy chain along with J.D Tippit, Jack Ruby, E. Howard Hunt, Charles V. Harrelson and Lyndon Baines Johnson.

All of them expendable if the plot were to go awry.

My argument is that since intelligence operations are highly compartmentalized, the plot to kill JFK was separate from the plot to kill Oswald, both guided from the very top.

I'd also speculate that Phillips was the main guy behind the framing and murder of Oswald,

But I doubt if Phillips knew who was involved in the JFK hit.

 

Edited by Cliff Varnell

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