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George Sawtelle

Proof CIA did not plan or execute the JFK assassination

136 posts in this topic

David A

Files asked for immunity regarding his participation in the assassination.

Money. He asked Dankbaar for peanuts. He asked that Joe West's widow be given enough to cover Joe West's hospital bills and his funeral.

He also asked that his wife and daughter be given $25,000.

He would have made a lot more money by hiring an author and authored a book with him about his early life, his experiences in the army, the Kennedy assassination capped off by his arrest for trying to kill an Illinois state police officer. Probably ten times more money. I'm talking about a real book with a reputable publisher and not something Dankbaar would cook up.

As far as notoriety, he didn't ask that Joe West come to talk to him. Joe West found out about him from an FBI agent. If not for the FBI agent, Files would have died telling no one about his experiences.

The fact that he asked for immunity led me to believe initially he is truthfull. Signing documents for immunity would be a waste of time and wouldn't help him if he is lying.

The FBI said Files was not credible. Well duh, you think the mafia owns up to hiring Files for the assassination? And why would anyone believe the FBI about evidence, eyewitness testimony, documents , etc., involving the assassination?

 

 

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On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 9:36 AM, David Andrews said:

I believe Tosh Plumlee when he says that the CIA (high-command) had nothing to do with the assassination.

If JFK was a compartmentalized op run by ex-Director Dulles from his home and his office at The Farm (as David Talbot suggests), managed by Helms and Phillips, using Angleton's patsy (Oswald) and executed on the ground by the likes of David Morales, how the heck would Tosh the pilot have privy knowledge of high command intentions?  Because somebody made him assurances?  Somebody made Oswald assurances, too.

Persons who try to make distinctions between official CIA ops and rogue ops, and former and current personnel, haven't been reading enough about CIA, and aren't taking into account the establishment that Dulles - with Harriman and Lodge on the diplomatic side - were accountable to.  Anyone at CIA selected to manage or execute the assassination would have been of like mind with Dulles and his backers, and either accountable to or cooperative with the others in the op chain.

Was the drug-fueled Contra war run by rogue operatives?  Was the 1960s-1970s opium trade out of Vientiane a rogue op?

Exactly. 

No agency is in total lockstep, so perhaps there were a few in the CIA who would want to abort...Tosh is my friend but I have never really known what to make of his Dallas story.  Anyone who doubts the CIA- at the highest level -being behind the assassination does not understand the hatred they had for JFK. And it's not like they did not have tons of experience in assassinating leaders.

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On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 5:26 PM, David Andrews said:

James Files is a non-starter as an assassination participant.  Go down that road, and you're being directed away from the real authority. 

Absolutely, as is Judy Baker.

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George, you're just not going to find anything but a consensus against Files here.  We went through the Files thing ten years ago, when Dankbaar was an active poster.

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David A

You have me all wrong. I don't care who does or doesn't believe Files. I believe him. That is all that matters to me.

I answer questions about Files because I am asked, not because I attempt to convince anyone.

You and most of the folks on this forum believed Eaglesham. How did that turn out? Read my last post on that subject if you are interested.

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On 5/4/2017 at 8:36 AM, David Andrews said:

I believe Tosh Plumlee when he says that the CIA (high-command) had nothing to do with the assassination.

If JFK was a compartmentalized op run by ex-Director Dulles from his home and his office at The Farm (as David Talbot suggests), managed by Helms and Phillips, using Angleton's patsy (Oswald) and executed on the ground by the likes of David Morales, how the heck would Tosh the pilot have privy knowledge of high command intentions?  Because somebody made him assurances?  Somebody made Oswald assurances, too.

Persons who try to make distinctions between official CIA ops and rogue ops, and former and current personnel, haven't been reading enough about CIA, and aren't taking into account the establishment that Dulles - with Harriman and Lodge on the diplomatic side - were accountable to.  Anyone at CIA selected to manage or execute the assassination would have been of like mind with Dulles and his backers, and either accountable to or cooperative with the others in the op chain.

Was the drug-fueled Contra war run by rogue operatives?  Was the 1960s-1970s opium trade out of Vientiane a rogue op?

"Anyone at CIA selected to manage or execute the assassination would have been of like mind with Dulles and his backers, and either accountable to or cooperative with the others in the op chain."

I put "Mr. regime change" Ed Lansdale squarely in this group. He was Dulles' guy going way back, and certainly capable of managing Dallas. Prouty certainly believed so, and I tend to agree.

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Posted (edited)

Like I just read in a Robert Morrow post from 2010:

CIA director William Colby to NY Times editor Abe Rosenthal in 1975

"New York Times editor Rosenthal asked CIA Director William Colby if the CIA ever killed anybody in this country. Colby replied, “Not in this country.” When asked who the CIA had killed Colby said, “I can’t talk about it.” Colby said, “Sometimes intelligence operations are high-risk, and sometimes they fail. Then, the question is not whether the CIA is some rogue elephant, which it never has been, but rather that we Americans made a mistake through out constitutional system.”"  (Underscoring added.)

[John Armstrong, Harvey and Lee, p. 968]

Edited by David Andrews

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

Ty C

Holt mentioned that he made the fake badges in an interview with Dankbaar.

There is no greater example of mafia participation in the assassination than Jack Ruby. Yet what did the US government say about Ruby? No evidence that Ruby was motivated by the mafia to kill Oswald. No credible ties to the mafia. He killed Oswald to spare Mrs. Kennedy from having to return to Dallas for Ruby's trial.

Same would have happened to Files. The story would have concentrated on a young man who was court martialed from the US army for insubordination and some drug running while in the army. No credible ties to the mafia. Malcontent psychopath who was in and out of trouble with the law. Files had a more negative baggage than Oswald.

Files did not need to be sheep-dipped as a commie. He  was a lone nut. Once you are in jail with no consul they can plant all kinds of documents on you and how can you respond?

We must remember that Files was secondary. In a pinch he would do.

George,

Well, if Files was being set up as another Patsy, then we have some plausibility.

Carlos Marcello was IMHO involved in the JFK assassination through Guy Banister and David Ferrie, who were helping Marcello with his court case in defiance of RFK.  

So I do recognize Mafia involvement, at a lower level.

If the potential Patsies were out of town, e.g. Gerry Patrick Hemming, there might have been a cattle call for more Patsies.

So, it might have been the task of Charles Nicoletti to deliver a spare Patsy.  After all, James Files wasn't Italian, so he could never be a made guy.

Yet in my CT, it was Badgeman who made the JFK headshot, so the claim of Files, that he made the headshot, was just everyday boasting.

Maybe.  Yet if Files was truly behind the picket fence, he should have seen Dallas police there, too.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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Paul T

Files said he was the only person behind the picket fence as far as he could determine. But I believe he was protecting someone. I think there were two shooters. 

According to Dallas policeman Roger Craig, Dallas policemen were told to stand down for Kennedy's parade. The "policemen" who were behind the picket fence were fake. They were there to protect the shooters.

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On 5/15/2017 at 6:50 PM, George Sawtelle said:

Paul T

Files said he was the only person behind the picket fence as far as he could determine. But I believe he was protecting someone. I think there were two shooters. 

According to Dallas policeman Roger Craig, Dallas policemen were told to stand down for Kennedy's parade. The "policemen" who were behind the picket fence were fake. They were there to protect the shooters.

George,

Although I believe Roger Craig, IMHO you have hastily concluded that the Dallas police behind the picket fence were fake.

They were real.  They were rogues.

One plainclothes officer had a Fake Secret Service ID, but the rest were real.

The CIA didn't kill JFK, Dallas did.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

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My limited knowledge of the case tells me that none of the official agencies did plan the assassination. It was not the CIA planning it, but some rogue elements of the CIA which collaborated with the Mafia and Cubans in the months or few years before Dallas, those could and most likely did participate in the plot. Angleton and Phillips are the people who should have at least some advance knowledge and who facilitated things. Neither the FBI did the planning, but Hoover knew in advance and covered up both his foreknowledge and the evidence of conspiracy. Neither Alpha66 did the planning, but few individuals of that organisation, and maybe other Cuban exile groups, did participate. It was not the Mafia who did it, however, some high Mafia figures were involved, e.g. Rosselli. Neither LBJ planned it, however, he knew that it will be his turn to take the office, and that he better covers up things quickly. It was not the Dallas Police who did plan to kill the President, however, some rogue members of that organisation did participate in framing Oswald and maybe even in the shooting.

The members of these parallel groups of people in most cases did not know about each other. For instance, the rogue Dallas police officer may have not known anything about Oswald's Mexico trip before the Friday afternoon. The police were responsible for the most proximal framing, not for the distal framing occurring earlier in New Orleans or Mexico.

The question is who was the mastermind behind the operation which involved so many limbs. Forgive my lack of deep knowledge and naivety, however, I guess it could be rogue members of the army or naval intelligence which in certain periods and in certain countries worked intimately with the CIA, exchanged agents with the CIA and FBI, and had people for the blackest of the black operations. These few military intelligence might have be the master minds, and they would be ignited by the highest military officers in Washington. The false sense of patriotism would be one of the strongest motives for many of the plotters. There were few key figures at high military and intelligence posts who dared to let the plot going since they were in the position to cover it up.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

On 5/15/2017 at 4:50 PM, George Sawtelle said:

Paul T

Files said he was the only person behind the picket fence as far as he could determine. But I believe he was protecting someone. I think there were two shooters. 

According to Dallas policeman Roger Craig, Dallas policemen were told to stand down for Kennedy's parade. The "policemen" who were behind the picket fence were fake. They were there to protect the shooters.

Dear George,

Deputy Sheriff Craig didn't say the Police were ordered to stand down, he said the Deputy Sheriffs were ordered to stand down.

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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I think one "proof" that the CIA was involved is Nixon's "smoking gun" tape, in which he told Haldeman to tell the CIA that the FBI investigation could open up "the whole Bay of Pigs thing." When Haldeman told that to Helms, to Haldeman's surprise Helms blew up ("This has nothing to do with the Bay of Pigs!"). Haldeman later concluded they must have been talking about the JFK assassination.

Now why would Nixon call it "the Bay of Pigs thing" (a CIA fiasco) unless it could mean big trouble for the CIA? And why did Helms blow up? I think Helms took it, rightly or wrongly, as a veiled threat from Nixon to expose the CIA's role in the assassination. (On another tape Nixon remarked that "that Hunt knows a lot of things." Apparently Nixon knew a lot of things too.)

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

13 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

My limited knowledge of the case tells me that none of the official agencies did plan the assassination. It was not the CIA planning it, but some rogue elements of the CIA which collaborated with the Mafia and Cubans in the months or few years before Dallas, those could and most likely did participate in the plot. Angleton and Phillips are the people who should have at least some advance knowledge and who facilitated things. Neither the FBI did the planning, but Hoover knew in advance and covered up both his foreknowledge and the evidence of conspiracy. Neither Alpha66 did the planning, but few individuals of that organisation, and maybe other Cuban exile groups, did participate. It was not the Mafia who did it, however, some high Mafia figures were involved, e.g. Rosselli. Neither LBJ planned it, however, he knew that it will be his turn to take the office, and that he better covers up things quickly. It was not the Dallas Police who did plan to kill the President, however, some rogue members of that organisation did participate in framing Oswald and maybe even in the shooting.

The members of these parallel groups of people in most cases did not know about each other. For instance, the rogue Dallas police officer may have not known anything about Oswald's Mexico trip before the Friday afternoon. The police were responsible for the most proximal framing, not for the distal framing occurring earlier in New Orleans or Mexico.

The question is who was the mastermind behind the operation which involved so many limbs. Forgive my lack of deep knowledge and naivety, however, I guess it could be rogue members of the army or naval intelligence which in certain periods and in certain countries worked intimately with the CIA, exchanged agents with the CIA and FBI, and had people for the blackest of the black operations. These few military intelligence might have be the master minds, and they would be ignited by the highest military officers in Washington. The false sense of patriotism would be one of the strongest motives for many of the plotters. There were few key figures at high military and intelligence posts who dared to let the plot going since they were in the position to cover it up.

 

 

Andrej,

Sounds like everybody but the Russians.  

I guess they didn't do that sort of thing.

(sarcasm)

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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7 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

My limited knowledge of the case tells me that none of the official agencies did plan the assassination. It was not the CIA planning it, but some rogue elements of the CIA which collaborated with the Mafia and Cubans in the months or few years before Dallas, those could and most likely did participate in the plot. Angleton and Phillips are the people who should have at least some advance knowledge and who facilitated things. Neither the FBI did the planning, but Hoover knew in advance and covered up both his foreknowledge and the evidence of conspiracy. Neither Alpha66 did the planning, but few individuals of that organisation, and maybe other Cuban exile groups, did participate. It was not the Mafia who did it, however, some high Mafia figures were involved, e.g. Rosselli. Neither LBJ planned it, however, he knew that it will be his turn to take the office, and that he better covers up things quickly. It was not the Dallas Police who did plan to kill the President, however, some rogue members of that organisation did participate in framing Oswald and maybe even in the shooting.

The members of these parallel groups of people in most cases did not know about each other. For instance, the rogue Dallas police officer may have not known anything about Oswald's Mexico trip before the Friday afternoon. The police were responsible for the most proximal framing, not for the distal framing occurring earlier in New Orleans or Mexico.

The question is who was the mastermind behind the operation which involved so many limbs. Forgive my lack of deep knowledge and naivety, however, I guess it could be rogue members of the army or naval intelligence which in certain periods and in certain countries worked intimately with the CIA, exchanged agents with the CIA and FBI, and had people for the blackest of the black operations. These few military intelligence might have be the master minds, and they would be ignited by the highest military officers in Washington. The false sense of patriotism would be one of the strongest motives for many of the plotters. There were few key figures at high military and intelligence posts who dared to let the plot going since they were in the position to cover it up.

 

 

Andrej - I think your post is very perceptive. Tommy is becoming obsessed with his latest burgeoning theory. There's barely a hint of reason to suspect the Russians, at least not the ones we know of. But of course at the deeper levels of global power who knows what alliances are formed by evil men.

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