Poll: Was Nosenko A Defector, A Plant, Or Had He Been Kidnapped By The Evil, Evil CIA?

[David Andrews]

Both Nosenko and Golitsyn false defectors, sent to bollocks Angleton.

Edited May 9, 2017 by David Andrews

[Thomas Graves]

On 5/7/2017 at 9:34 AM, David Andrews said:

Both Nosenko and Golitsyn false defectors, sent to bollocks Anglrton.

What makes you think Golitsyn was a false defector?  His conspiracy theories regarding Harold Wilson, the Sino-Soviet split, etc?

Even one of Golitsyn's biggest detractors, official MI5 historian Christopher Andrews, says that the intelligence data provided by Golitsyn were reliable.

Do you think the KGB (through Department 13) interviewed all American military defectors as a matter of course, as Golitsyn claimed, or do you prefer to believe that they didn't, as Nosenko said?

 

Who, in your opinion, gave the CIA more important, verifiable KGB / GRU secrets, Golitsyn or Nosenko?

Which of those two demonstrably lied more to the CIA / FBI?

Did Golitsyn's info help the FBI / CIA determine that the high-level KGB officer in charge of penetrating the American Embassy in Moscow, Kovshuk, was secretly on a 10-month mission to Washington, D.C., in 1957 [described by Nosenko as a just a "short, two-week trip in order to re-establish contact with a (relatively unimportant) code machine technician with the code name 'Audrey'"] in order re-establish contact with and get more secrets from Edward Ellis Smith, the former CIA agent whose job (which started right after Popov contacted the CIA in 1953) at the American Embassy in Moscow was to provide and service "dead drops" for Popov, but who had been caught-up in a 1956 KGB "honey trap" operation, "turned" by the KGB, recalled to CIA headquarters, and fired from his CIA position (but not arrested)?

As well to "service" a still-unknown and more important KGB agent  in the U.S. code named "Jack"?

Etc, etc?

In short, have you read Tennent H. Bagley's 2007 book, Spy Wars? 

Here, this is a 2014 summary of sorts.  http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362

 

--  Tommy   :

 

Or are you into "into" The Evil, Evil Ruskies Theory even more than I am (I rather doubt it), and you believe that Golitsyn and Nosenko were both sent to us by the KGB to us, kinda like a Pro Wrestling Tag Team?

 

 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[W. Tracy Parnell]

He was either a false defector or was so incompetent that the information he provided was basically worthless.

[Thomas Graves]

54 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

He was either a false defector or was so incompetent that the information he provided was basically worthless.

The question is:  Did he intentionally mislead the CIA?

Concomitantly, how could a KGB officer have such a bad memory as he "appeared" to have?

--  Tommy

 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Pamela Brown]

On 5/6/2017 at 10:34 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Pamela,

Thanks for the input.

My comment:  Maybe I'm wrong, but didn't Nosenko claim to have been in charge of a review of Oswald's case, and therefore privy to Oswald's complete KGB file, before he "defected" in January, 1964?

--  Tommy

Nosenko did say that, and I think he believed that was true.  I do that think that was the case.  I think there were others above him who knew the whole story and were giving him what they wanted CIA to see.  Like the Russian dolls-within-dolls.  That's why he couldn't be 'broken'.  JJA never figured that out. 

[Pamela Brown]

21 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Both Nosenko and Golitsyn false defectors, sent to bollocks Anglrton.

I think Golitsyn ran JJA around in circles and was definitely used to destabilize US intelligence, and possible UK and French as well.  JJA was vulnerable because he had been taken by surprise by Philby.  I think Nosenko was who he said he was -- he just been set up by higher-up KGB.

[Paul Brancato]

Nosenko was a defector. For me, given the fact as Graves says that Brancato has other things to do with his life besides rereading everything to check my memory, the telling thing is Angleton's obsession. Everything I've read about Angleton over the many years suggests that he was constantly up to no good. He was no patriot, at least not an American patriot. Since in my studies I've been convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Soviets were not involved in the assassination, that the efforts to tie the assassin Oswald to Kostikov was a US intelligence operation and not some secret sinister truth pointing at the Soviets, I'm convinced that Nosenko was real, and that he told the truth as he knew it. 

I leave open the deep state possibility that the factions within the KGB and CIA worked together to get rid of the obstacle to their beloved Cold War. That is a very cynical point of view, but since I don't believe that noble idealism accounts for either US or Soviet foreign policies, and prefer to see the Cold War as a convenient excuse for military spending and the enormous profits derived therein, including the drug trade, I leave room for the idea that Angleton was a central figure in a cabal that had no ideology other than global fascism. 

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Nosenko was a defector. For me, given the fact as Graves says that Brancato has other things to do with his life besides rereading everything to check my memory, the telling thing is Angleton's obsession. Everything I've read about Angleton over the many years suggests that he was constantly up to no good. He was no patriot, at least not an American patriot. Since in my studies I've been convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Soviets were not involved in the assassination, that the efforts to tie the assassin Oswald to Kostikov was a US intelligence operation and not some secret sinister truth pointing at the Soviets, I'm convinced that Nosenko was real, and that he told the truth as he knew it. 

I leave open the deep state possibility that the factions within the KGB and CIA worked together to get rid of the obstacle to their beloved Cold War. That is a very cynical point of view, but since I don't believe that noble idealism accounts for either US or Soviet foreign policies, and prefer to see the Cold War as a convenient excuse for military spending and the enormous profits derived therein, including the drug trade, I leave room for the idea that Angleton was a central figure in a cabal that had no ideology other than global fascism. 

Dear Paul,

OK.

Feel better now, Komarad?

--  Tommy

PS  Regarding JJA's "obsessiveness," what year did his mentor, that nice Kim Philby guy, run away (from Lebanon, fwiw) to the USSR?

 1963?

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Brancato]

I believe he left in Jan. 1963. 

[David Andrews]

Who is Angirton?

[Michael Clark]

24 minutes ago, David Andrews said:

Who is Angirton?

James Jesus Angleton

[Thomas Graves]

12 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

I believe he left in Jan. 1963. 

Correctomundo.

Seein' as how Philby had been Angleton's mentor, confidant, and drinking partner, it's no wonder Jim was overly suspicious of everything and everybody, but that doesn't negate the high probability that Nosenko was a false defector sent here to contradict everything Golitsyn could be expected by the KGB and GRU to tell the CIA.

--  Tommy

[Chris Newton]

10 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Philby had been Angleton's mentor, confidant, and drinking partner,

Pure speculation: If Angleton, himself, was the mole Tennent Bagley was convinced was in the highest echelons of the CIA. Then his alleged participation in the assassination of JFK would not have been necessarily an act of treason.

[Thomas Graves]

59 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

Pure speculation: If Angleton, himself, was the mole Tennent Bagley was convinced was in the highest echelons of the CIA. Then his alleged participation in the assassination of JFK would not have been necessarily an act of treason.

Huh?

You lost me there, Chris.

You really did.

--  Tommy

If Angleton helped kill JFK, why then wouldn't Angleton be a traitor?

Edited May 9, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Chris Newton]

27 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

You lost me there, Chris.

I believe that Angleton was a key figure in the plot to to assassinate JFK and set up Oswald as the fall guy. See John Newman's Oswald and the CIA.

I am therefore taking that one step further and speculating that "what if" Angleton, himself was the "mole" that Tennent Bagely was convinced wwas still operating undiscovered at the highest levels of the CIA.