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Chris Newton

Where's Ruth's couch?

99 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Chris, if you could enlarge the right hand portion of your kitchen photo, we could see that doorway on the right better. Sliding pocket doors require a 6 inch wall, and that appears to be a 6 inch wall. The wall under discussion runs east and west down the center of the house, and from a construction point of view, a 6 inch wall down the center makes sense because it can support all the rafters and ceiling joists (in the '60s, most interior and exterior walls were 4 inches). If it is a pocket door, then there was a door leading from the living room to the kitchen, and it may have been merely unnoticed, because when it's open (in its pocket in the wall), which is most of the time, it's un-noticable.

 

Tommy thinks the kitchen look new-ish, do you know when the kitchen photo was taken, Chris?

Edited by Tom Hume

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2 hours ago, Tom Hume said:

Tommy thinks the kitchen look new-ish, do you know when the kitchen photo was taken, Chris?

 

Yes the kitchen photo we are looking at appears to be taken in the kitchen recently, after the house was turned into a "museum".

 

There could be a pocket door inside the kitchen door frame. It would have to slide to the east because the door to the garage is inches west of the door to the kitchen,

Is the other door in the living room on the east wall also a pocket door or is it a "regular" door?

 

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Posted (edited)

Hi Chris,

I think I have an opinion. The left side of the doorway on the east wall butts up against the adjacent wall (the north wall). The doorway on the north wall, however, does not butt up against the adjacent wall, there is a space of a foot or so between the door molding and the corner of the room. In the first photo of your first post, we cannot see an obvious room corner, and there could be two reasons for this: (1) we are looking at the doorway on the east wall and the room corner is obscured by the left door molding in the photo, or, (2) the photo depicts the couch on the north wall but is so devoid of pixels that the corner of the room is invisible to us.

However, if you study the door molding in the first photo (the women in the living room photo), the left door molding is wider than the right door molding. Having built several houses, I can easily imagine why a carpenter might do this. If you have a doorway to trim out that butts up against an adjacent wall, you have the problem of sheetrocking and mudding that tiny little corner and it will be nearly impossible to paint the small gap between the molding and the adjacent wall. Much easier to use wider molding in that spot and almost no one will ever notice. 

Now, below is the link to the photo you posted of the east wall. Notice that the molding on the left side of the doorway is also wider than the right side (Tommy and some others may not be able to see this photo because it's "dropbox"):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/g71rjjkic72l7lp/1920px-Ruth_Paine_Living_Room.JPG?dl=0

Conclusion: The photo of the living room women under discussion and the photo linked above depict the east wall doorway. I rest my case, I think.

I’m sure you covered this someplace, Chris, but why is this important?

Tom

 
 
Edited by Tom Hume

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Posted (edited)

I am also curious, whose legs and feet are those pictured next to Marina on the couch?

Is that Lee's older brother Robert or Michael Paine?

And a few asides if I may ...

I like Ruth's house. Real cute and cozy.

Appears clean and not cluttered and I love the knotty pine walls and cabinetry in the kitchen area.

With real photos you do realize that Ruth's place is quite small in square footage and everything seems so close together.

Hard to believe Ruth and Michael didn't notice or maybe even sneak a peek at Lee Oswald's belongings in that small one car garage, and with Lee's blanket wrapped rifle right on the floor. And when did Oswald find the time to type his draft on Ruth's typewriter without being noticed doing this? Seems that anyone in the house in any room could hear someone in a room next to theirs, and typing keys back then made some perceptible noise.

Lastly, Marina looks so tired in those pics. And those stockings of Marguerite's ... oh sheeze!

Edited by Joe Bauer

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1 hour ago, Tom Hume said:

I’m sure you covered this someplace, Chris, but why is this important?

Tom,

I'm glad we came to the same conclusion for different reasons, that's why I posted the question.

My reasoning for the configuration is based on Ruth Paine's story about how she acquired the "Oswald rough draft of the Russian Embassy letter". In this story, after typing his letter on Ruth's typewriter in the kitchen, Lee mysteriously leaves his rough draft on top of the small desk secretary that is along the NORTH wall of the living room. The rough draft sits there, for almost 24 hours despite Lee spending most of his time in the living room watching TV.  Marina is unmentioned in Ruth's story about the rough draft but since the paper has Lee's writing on both sides we should assume that despite housework and TV and the kids she was uninterested in the letter in her husband's handwriting. On Sunday morning, Nov. 10, Ruth wakes up before the rest of the household and reads the note and decides to make a handwritten copy. Sunday evening, after watching football all day, Ruth asks Michael and Lee to help her move furniture in the living room. By her account, they swap the locations of the "little desk secretary"and the "living room couch". The couch was on the EAST wall before the swap and the "little desk secretary" was on the NORTH wall. The swapping of the furniture gives Ruth Paine the opportunity to "filch" Lee's rough draft and she closes the letter inside her "little desk secretary" before the men move it.

My contention is that this story is ridiculous. It is invented to either cover the fact that Ruth was taking things from Lee's belongings in the garage which she had unfettered access to five days a week, while Lee was at work.  AND/OR  That Ruth Paine was acting as an informant to the FBI/CIA and was involved in an operation involving this letter and it's drafts to "setup" Lee Harvey Oswald.

John Newman, Peter Dale Scott and many others believe that the Oswald Embassy Letter is a forgery, if this theory is correct then where does that put Ruth's story?

 

BTW... Alan Grants photos were taken on the morning of 11/23/63 before the FBI had questioned Ruth & Marina. They show the living room in a configuration that is impossible if Ruth's testimony/story is true.

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2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

And when did Oswald find the time to type his draft on Ruth's typewriter without being noticed doing this?

According to Ruth, Lee asked permission to use her typewriter and she allowed him to use it at the dining table in the kitchen/dining area on Saturday morning.

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Chris, then why has Ruth Paine many times expressed outrage that Oswald had used her typewriter without her permission?

In the mock trial of Lee Harvey Oswald, Gerry Spence asked Ruth Paine about a letter (draft of a letter ) she had sent to the FBI that Lee had written to the Soviet Embassy on her typewriter and supposedly left on her table where she couldn't help but find it and read it's contents.

RP says she read the draft and was deeply troubled ( again offended ) because in this draft she says LHO lied.

And then Ruth Paine adds to this statement with...

"And he used my typewriter and that offended me deeply."

Are you saying that Ruth Paine gave Oswald permission to use her typewriter one time and not the time he used it to write this draft?

Just the fact Oswald used her typewriter ... says Ruth " offended me deeply."

That doesn't sound like someone who gave Oswald permission to use their typewriter.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

That doesn't sound like someone who gave Oswald permission to use their typewriter.

 

First off, the mock trial was not a "real" trial and no one could be persecuted for perjury.

Your correct, but that's not whats implied.

Ruth gave him permission per her WC testimony.

Per RP:

While Ruth was putting one of her babies in a highchair in the kitchen, Lee, while sitting at the table using the typewriter covered his draft so that Ruth could not casually view it. This "covert" act aroused Ruth Paine's suspicions about what he was writing but she could not actually read it. Later, much to her surprise, she found what was apparently the same rough draft placed on her little desk secretary on the NORTH wall of the living room. When she read the rough draft on Sunday morning she was so incensed by Oswald's "lies" that she felt compelled to first copy the draft herself and then actually steal it that evening.

 

The "outrage" was that Oswald had the nerve to lie to the Russian Embassy on her typewriter.

Edited by Chris Newton

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Chris Newton said:

 

First off, the mock trial was not a "real" trial and no one could be persecuted for perjury.

Your correct, but that's not whats implied.

Ruth gave him permission per her WC testimony.

Per RP:

While Ruth was putting one of her babies in a highchair in the kitchen, Lee, while sitting at the table using the typewriter covered his draft so that Ruth could not casually view it. This "covert" act aroused Ruth Paine's suspicions about what he was writing but she could not actually read it. Later, much to her surprise, she found what was apparently the same rough draft placed on her little desk secretary on the NORTH wall of the living room. When she read the rough draft on Sunday morning she was so incensed by Oswald's "lies" that she felt compelled to first copy the draft herself and then actually steal it that evening.

 

The "outrage" was that Oswald had the nerve to lie to the Russian Embassy on her typewriter.

Chris,

"Lock her up! , Lock her up! , ... "  ?

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 1:39 PM, Tom Hume said:

Chris, a couple of questions about the kitchen photo you posted a link to:

Could the doorway on the right be a sliding pocket door? It looks like the molding on the top might have a recess containing the hanging bracket. It also appears that the vertical molding might be revealing a pocket door. Do you think the lamp on the right in this photo is the same lamp we see in the living room photo in your first post.? Also, are we seeing a man’s legs and shoes next to Marina in this living room photo?

 

No it's not the same lamp.  The first picture is from 11/23/63.  That's the Paine's lamp.  The second picture is since the City of Irving turned the house into a museum in the last few years.  The house has been rented to multiple tenants in the interim and furniture was not included.  Only if the Paine's saved the lamp and donated it to the museum for authenticity could it be the same lamp.

Where A lamp was in 63 vs today is the question. 

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1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Where A lamp was in 63 vs today is the question. 

Actually, the key to that photo is the "little desk secretary" which allegedly gave Ruth the opportunity to steal Oswald's handwritten note. She stated that the little desk secretary and the couch switched places on Nov. 11th when she asked Lee and Michael to move them. By her account the little desk secretary had been on the north wall and the couch on the east wall and they swapped positions and that's where they stayed through the time of her testimony.

The photo on 11/23/63 proves that her story was an "invention" and that the furniture had not moved prior to 11/23/63.

If she didn't tell the truth about the provenance of the note then that is perjury.

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On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 0:26 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Nope.  Never BEEN there.  

To think this statement caused me to join the forum after reading it intermittently since about 2011 and almost daily since the 50th.

I stepped from the kitchen "doorway' in question once and shot "Oswald " in the living room.

In 1993 on the 30th anniversary of the assassination a friend and coworker, Tony Mexia rented and lived in the "Paine " house.  Another friend and coworker, an Irving neighbor of Tony's, Mike Moore and I persuaded Tony to host a 30th party.  I brought the 4-5 books on the subject I had at the time and a few magazines and news paper clippings.  These were scattered on the kitchen table for others to look at.  I spent most of the evening in the kitchen.  I don't remember a door from it to the living room.  I think it would have "stood out" so to speak.  As one can see in the second, modern museum picture a door did not open to the right entering the kitchen, it would have hit the "telephone desk", there is no door in the picture that would have swung to the right.  I don't remember one swinging to the left either.  The garage entrance door from the kitchen was immediately to the right, facing the entry to the living room and it.  It would have been tight for enough room for a door opening that way to do so at best.   Looking into the living room from the kitchen, a opened door on the right would have been a noticeable contrast to the knotty pine paneling.

Later in the evening, from the bedroom hall door coming in to the living room Mike and another friend took one each of Tony's arms and marched him into the living room.  I'd brought a cap pistol.  As they approached the center of the room I stepped from the kitchen doorway and said Lee! loudly.  Tony turned, looked at me and said Jack!, as I shot him.  He fell to the floor.  We received robust applause and cheers from the 20 or so people present.                                                                                                                                                  

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Posted (edited)

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 0:26 PM, Thomas Graves said:

 

                                                                                                                                                

Edited by Ron Bulman

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Posted (edited)

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 0:26 PM, Thomas Graves said:

 

                                                                                                                                                  

Edited by Ron Bulman

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Posted (edited)

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 0:26 PM, Thomas Graves said:

 

 Forgive my technical ignorance.  My post wouldn't load, I kept clicking.  Now delete has no effect.                                                                                                                                               

Edited by Ron Bulman

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