For Chris Newton, Larry Hancock, Tracy Parnell, and other Critically-Minded Members

[Larry Hancock]

That's a fascinating scenario David, has Simpich gone though all your material. Putting it in sequence like that is excellent, I don't have time to go though all four parts right now but it's certainly looking persuasive. The thought of the CIA doing one operation in MC built around Oswald, of it possibly being compromised and to an extent stolen and then for the FBI to be using Oswald for their very own tasks in Texas.  Neither would be a problem at the time but as of Nov. 23...talk about karma, irony, whatever you want to call it. 

I certainly hope to take a look at the full thing soon and would love to see Bill's assessment.

[David Josephs]

Again, thanks for the kind words...  Bill was very helpful identifying the players...  we emailed while I was working on this back in 2015 and keep in contact from time to time... I read his work enthusiastically - downloading State Secret before many even knew about it...

Since so few have taken the time to look at every day OTHER than Sept 25 - Oct 3, Bill's work digs so deep into the CIA, FBI, etc... that the trip itself is usually overlooked.

Here is one of the last replies related to my Work....   As you delve into the other 4 papers I address each and every attempt to ID Oswald on these buses - the cornerstones to the FBI's MC trip story...   

"Here's Hoover in Feb. 64 talking about how even with extra men, every lead in Mexico City fizzles out.  At some point, you might consider a chrono of similar statements. Bill
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62477&relPageId=25  

[David Josephs]

This is Feb 25, the day after the memo Bill links us to...  A supervisor is already explaining away the errors and mistakes of a subordinate...  in turn, the FM-11 which is the "master record" says he leaves by "auto" on Oct 3.

If the plan on Oct 3 is still to associate an Oswald with others, he'd leave in a car driven by others.  if that was the original plan.
a change to that plan to say Lone Nut with no associations... the CIA association of Oswald with others has to disappear or be disavowed - ala Alvarado

or in this case... H. O. Lee (O.H. Lee) leaving or arriving by car driven by others.  The "actual" FM-11 requested in the FBI doc is/was in the hands of the FBI asset, who, it was said, added to the FM-11 for clarity.

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by David Josephs

[Sandy Larsen]

On 5/22/2017 at 9:41 PM, Kirk Gallaway said:

.

Just to flesh out some of these characters to those who may have never seen them.In the Frontline documentary "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald" which was spotty,had good witnesses and bad with motives to deceive, the case is made for Oswald visiting MC, and chronicling what he did. Starting around 1:40, it starts the speculation  when you have Anthony Summers interviewing the Odio's about the visit, then a segment with Posner questioning the time of the visit. At 1:44 you have the accounts of the Australian women, Patricia Winston who claim to have seen Oswald on the bus.1:46 interview with Sylvia Duran,146:50 interview with the 3 KGB agents who claimed to have seen Oswald(.Nechorporenko,and Kostikov.) 1:50 you have Helms repudiating Win Scott's alleged pictures.Scott produces tapes to authorities scratchy and unclear. The 3 KGB agents and Duran repudiate fake photo of Oswald entering embassy, and reaffirm that who they saw was Oswald. The segment ends around 1:55.

https://youtu.be/-cLvrkqZxdc

 

 

Thanks Kirk. I found that part of the video useful.

What really struck me is that in the interview with Sylvia Duran, she said that the man at the embassy appeared to be the Oswald she'd later see in the news. Not the blond Oswald being of about her height.

Yet David Josephs' research indicates that the real Oswald didn't even go to Mexico City. I'm inclined to believe that David is right.

Because of that, my current thinking is that a fake Oswald went to Mexico City and visited the embassies. And that this particular fake Oswald was chosen for the job because he looked a lot like the real Oswald.

I believe it is entirely possible -- and in fact IMO probable -- that someone could see a person briefly one day, and then later on another day, when presented with a photograph of some other similar looking person, could mistake that for being the person they saw. So my thinking is that Duran had seen a fake Oswald and yet honestly thought he was the same person she later saw in the news.

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Larry Hancock]

That sounds reasonable but the photo ID raises a real question.  Surely professionals would have know that would have been requested and given him one.  Oswald himself should have known but at least might have just figured if he had a US passport that would be enough. Or was this a new consulate procedure.  And the photo vs. the clothes the guy was wearing seems a problem.  I'd like to see some discussion on that particular point and a scenario that makes sense of it...I certainly can't offer one myself.

[David Andrews]

Do we have evidence of Oswald in Mexico City prior to September 1963?  I seem to recall that Richard Case Nagell told Dick Russell this was the case, and that Nagell rendezvoused with Oswald there.  I'm sorry that I don't remember the exact dates and references in the Russell book at this moment, but perhaps another member does.  In general, it's time for a double-check on Nagell's assertions about Oswald, who is as great a mystery in Russell's book as in other sources,

Dick Russell, would you correspond with me privately about Oswald?  I have a project in mind.

Edited May 24, 2017 by David Andrews

[Sandy Larsen]

50 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

And the photo vs. the clothes the guy was wearing seems a problem.

Larry,

I assume you are referring to the visa application photo that the Oswald impersonator came back with after he was told he needed it.

I assume that the guy went and got his photo taken, and that it was attached to his application. And that when the application was handed over to the U.S., somebody swapped a photo of real Oswald with the one on the application.

Of course, if that's the way it happened, the authorities would have had a photo of the impersonator.

BTW, yesterday I read that Sylvia Duran told a JFK researcher/author (whose name I don't recall) that she wasn't sure the guy she dealt with was the Oswald shot by Ruby. (I sure wish I'd made a note of who it was. It was one of the well known assassination authors.)

 

[Larry Hancock]

Indeed it was the visa application is why the person who applied did not have a current photo available and had to leave an get one, not efficient and presenting two opportunities to be filmed or observed.  If it was an Agency impersonator you would think they would go in prepared, if Oswald he knew the requirement for photos so  why the slip up.

So what scenario has either showing up unprepared, especially a professional impersonator.

Your point raises another question....are you saying the Cubans had a visa application with a person other than Oswald, and handed that over to the U.S. and then at some point a real photo of Oswald was substituted?  And the Cubans never noticed?  Could you or David timeline out how that would work...

 

 

[David Andrews]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Thanks Kirk. I found that part of the video useful.

What really struck me is that in the interview with Sylvia Duran, she said that the man at the embassy appeared to be the Oswald she'd later see in the news. Not the blond Oswald being of about her height.

Yet David Josephs' research indicates that the real Oswald didn't even go to Mexico City. I'm inclined to believe that David is right.

Because of that, my current thinking is that a fake Oswald went to Mexico City and visited the embassies. And that this particular fake Oswald was chosen for the job because he looked a lot like the real Oswald.

I believe it is entirely possible -- and in fact IMO probable -- that someone could see a person briefly one day, and then another day later, when presented with a photograph of some other similar looking person, could mistake that for being the person they saw. So my thinking is that Duran had seen a fake Oswald and yet honestly thought he was the same person she later saw in the news.

 

I've seen this documentary, and the participation of Kostikov and the other two KGB is a mystery to me.  At the time, I suspected it was part of the "We know nothing" wave inspired by Norman Mailer's trip to Russia to research his book with Larry Schiller. 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

That sounds reasonable but the photo ID raises a real question.  Surely professionals would have know that would have been requested and given him one.  Oswald himself should have known but at least might have just figured if he had a US passport that would be enough.

Maybe it was the case back then that a passport was typically sufficient for ID, and that Cuba's photo ID requirement was an exception.

I just checked and it appears that the U.S. doesn't require a photo ID to obtain a visa. (The U.S. embassy in Mexico doesn't mention the need for a photo ID. But then it also doesn't mention the need for a passport! Unless I missed it somehow. So I looked here and found no need for a photo ID.)

EDIT: I found the U.S. Embassy page where it states that a passport is required. It does not state that a photo ID is required. The page is here.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

7 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

(The U.S. embassy in Mexico doesn't mention the need for a photo ID. But then it also doesn't mention the need for a passport!)

I found the U.S. Embassy page where it states that a passport is required. It does not state that a photo ID is required. The page is here.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

25 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Your point raises another question....are you saying the Cubans had a visa application with a person other than Oswald, and handed that over to the U.S. and then at some point a real photo of Oswald was substituted?  And the Cubans never noticed?

I'm saying that the Oswald impersonator left the Cuban embassy, got his photo taken, and took that back to the embassy. The Cubans didn't notice anything at that time because the photo matched the face of the applicant.

After the assassination, when the U.S. authorities asked the Cuban government for the application, the Cubans may have noticed that it wasn't the photo of the real Oswald. Or maybe not. Recall that I said that the impersonator resembled Oswald. (BTW, if you look at several photos of Oswald, even some of those don't look like him. IMO.)

 

[Sandy Larsen]

48 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Indeed it was the visa application is why the person who applied did not have a current photo available and had to leave an get one, not efficient and presenting two opportunities to be filmed or observed.  If it was an Agency impersonator you would think they would go in prepared, if Oswald he knew the requirement for photos so  why the slip up.

So what scenario has either showing up unprepared, especially a professional impersonator.

Maybe this scenario: The guy's goal wasn't really to go to Cuba or Russia. And because of that he didn't put as much thought into actually obtaining a visa as a regular person would have. And thereby he screwed up.

 

[David Josephs]

On 5/22/2017 at 8:41 PM, Kirk Gallaway said:

.

Just to flesh out some of these characters to those who may have never seen them.In the Frontline documentary "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald" which was spotty,had good witnesses and bad with motives to deceive, the case is made for Oswald visiting MC, and chronicling what he did. Starting around 1:40, it starts the speculation  when you have Anthony Summers interviewing the Odio's about the visit, then a segment with Posner questioning the time of the visit. At 1:44 you have the accounts of the Australian women, Patricia Winston who claim to have seen Oswald on the bus.1:46 interview with Sylvia Duran,146:50 interview with the 3 KGB agents who claimed to have seen Oswald(.Nechorporenko,and Kostikov.) 1:50 you have Helms repudiating Win Scott's alleged pictures.Scott produces tapes to authorities scratchy and unclear. The 3 KGB agents and Duran repudiate fake photo of Oswald entering embassy, and reaffirm that who they saw was Oswald. The segment ends around 1:55.

https://youtu.be/-cLvrkqZxdc

 

Hi Kirk....

The evidence offered for Oswald's bus ride from Monterrey to Mexico City is the FLECHA ROJAS passenger manifest showing Lee H OSWALJ, BOWEN & McFARLAND.

Mumford and Winston were on a "scheme" that allowed them to get on and off buses.

We spent one day in Monterrey and left by bus at 7:30 p.m. at Monterrey, and it was on that bus that we met Lee Harvey Oswald. 

"WCD1245 p274 is the beginning of the typed version passenger list #11889 for Flecha Rojas bus #516 for passengers who ONLY got on in Monterrey (i.e. Mumford and Winston).  Their names, as expected, do not appear on this list."   They're not on the list because they took a different bus.  They took the Del Norte bus

Miss MUMFORD. Well, the ticket we had on this deal enabled us only to travel in the States, not in Mexico.  So, we bought the ticket on the bus at Laredo and that enabled us to stop off in Monterrey. But the ticket was from Laredo to Mexico City.
Mr. BALL. And from what company did you buy the ticket?
Miss MUMFORD. As far as I can remember, it was a bus company called Transporter del Norte.

Mr. BALL. Now, you got on the bus at Monterrey on the evening of September 26 at 7:30 p.m., you just told me?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And what was the company that operated that bus, do you know?
Miss MUMFORD. That was also Transporter del Norte.

Miss MUMFORD. Oswald was the first one we spoke to. He left his seat and came down to the back of the bus to speak to us.
Mr. BALL. That was after the bus had left Monterrey?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes          …. Then we arrived in the Mexico City bus station and he didn't speak to us, attempt to speak to us at all. He was one of the first off the bus and the last I remember seeing him he was standing across the end of the room.

The McFarland affidavit confirms they left Monterrey with the Australian women and claims that Oswald was seated next to Bowen "the elderly man"
This is the FLECHA ROJAS manifest "proving" how Oswald went to Mexico City.  This bus leaves Monterrey at 3:30pm.  The bus from Nuevo Laredo left at 2pm.

In both CE2532 and CE2121 p32  (the NY Times account of the trip)  we find the FBI concluding that this Oswald traveling as H.O. LEE, took a 2:30pm 9/26 Flecha Rojas bus from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico City via Monterrey.

 

It's 135 miles from Nuevo Laredo to Monterrey on a bus that can barely make 45mph...  Obviously (except to the FBI) Oswald cannot board a bus at 2pm and then leave on another bus 135 miles away only 1.5hrs later.

 

 

This fictitious Oswald was not on a bus with these people... Bowen/Osbourne denies it, the evidence denies it and then there's this little tidbit about the Australian witness who supposedly adds corroboration to the FBI's evidence....

(May 19, 1964)
Mr. BALL. Well, you were shown pictures of a man (Bowen/Osborne) later on by the Federal Bureau of Investigation agent, were you not?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And they showed you pictures of Oswald, didn't they; Lee Harvey Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. You didn't ever see a picture of Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.

Edited February 26, 2019 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 6:01 AM, David Andrews said:

Do we have evidence of Oswald in Mexico City prior to September 1963?  I seem to recall that Richard Case Nagell told Dick Russell this was the case, and that Nagell rendezvoused with Oswald there.  I'm sorry that I don't remember the exact dates and references in the Russell book at this moment, but perhaps another member does.  In general, it's time for a double-check on Nagell's assertions about Oswald, who is as great a mystery in Russell's book as in other sources,

Dick Russell, would you correspond with me privately about Oswald?  I have a project in mind.

A woman named Elizabeth Catlett Mora - an American Communist in Mexico with a "Bufile" was informed upon by "sources" (T-22)

 

In 1957, Armstrong writes that Oswald and his 8-man squad went from LA to Tijuana Mexico. Allen Felde corroborates.

Another instance involved Delgado.  WCR p687

In the spring of 1959 Delgado, Oswald, and two other Marines (probably roommates
PFC Watts and PFC Wold) traveled to Tijuana, Mexico. When they arrived
Oswald poil).ted out the "Flamingo" bar and said it was the best place to have a good
time. The entire group then went looking for a "house with girls." Later, after spending
time with the girls, the group went to a small hotel for the night where each Marine
had his own room. -H&L p226

 

NOTE: Tony Varona told the HSCA about discussions between himself and Carlos
Bringuier concerning Oswald's visits to Mexico and Cuba. Varona said, "He (Oswald)
had traveled to Mexico and from Mexico he went to Cuba and came back to Mexico."
When asked if Oswald's trip to Cuba was in 1961, Varona said, "/don't know the date,
but it must have been during that period. "141

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by David Josephs