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The Dulles Debate -- Assassination COO? Back-Up Patsy?


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Cliff - thank you for that. I had never read it. Pity that the criticisms did not not change the course of history. We still live with the legacy of the Dulles brothers manipulations. It's clear that JFK envisioned something quite different, with his attempts to institute a new foreign policy base on neutrality. When JFK fired Dulles, it sealed his doom. Surely you cannot read this document and think otherwise. Whatever disputes were going on behind the scenes in the halls of power, the more sensible voices lost. 

Its abundantly clear that Dulles thought he was above this. He ignored it as much as possible and went about his usual destructive business. And he wasnt alone. All those CIA guys in the covert arm were with him all the way. It hardly matters that he was old and losing it. Helms, Angleton, and so many others were part of this disgusting abuse of power.

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Who  was on the WC from the  CIA? McCone? One of his assistants?

The answer should  tell you  a lot more  than you  think. How is it that the *former* CIA director served on the blue  ribbon  panel investigating  his former bosses murder, the same guy who fired him two years  before?

Read the Perry testimony  and how Dulles kept adding  confusion to it. Far from being senile  he knew what  he  was doing.

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7 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Who  was on the WC from the  CIA? McCone? One of his assistants?

The answer should  tell you  a lot more  than you  think. How is it that the *former* CIA director served on the blue  ribbon  panel investigating  his former bosses murder, the same guy who fired him two years  before?

Read the Perry testimony  and how Dulles kept adding  confusion to it. Far from being senile  he knew what  he  was doing.

Michael - good point, which runs counter to the assertion that Dulles was losing his effectiveness. 

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8 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Who  was on the WC from the  CIA? McCone? One of his assistants?

The answer should  tell you  a lot more  than you  think. How is it that the *former* CIA director served on the blue  ribbon  panel investigating  his former bosses murder, the same guy who fired him two years  before?

Read the Perry testimony  and how Dulles kept adding  confusion to it. Far from being senile  he knew what  he  was doing.

Michael, No standing member of the CIA was in the WC. The one member who was representing the  International Industrialists /Financial interests specifically was John J. Mc Cloy. It's easy to confuse John Mc Cloy with John Mc Cone, JFK's appointed successor to Dulles.

In this tape, complements of DVP and Youtube, between JFK and RFK, (starting at 1:18 to about 5:00) it appears JFK had second thoughts about his appointment, which I  assume he made to try to appease resistance from the CIA after Dulles' firing. He calls him a bastard, horses ass, for derogatory public statements Mc Cone made against the administration to make the CIA look good. Later after JFK's death, Mc Cone was the one  that RFK approached and asked ,"Did one of your guys do it?" and Bobby later said he believed Mc Cone's denial of any knowledge. This tape was also part of DVP's most recent archive release here.

https://youtu.be/U04JoeAJOCQ

 

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8 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Michael - good point, which runs counter to the assertion that Dulles was losing his effectiveness. 

What to make of his questioning of Dr. Carrico:

<quote on, emphasis added>

Mr. Specter:  Will you describe, as specifically as you can then, the neck wounds which you heretofore mentioned briefly?
Dr. CARRICO. There was a small wound, 5- to 8-mm. in size, located in the lower third of the neck, below the thyroid cartilage, the Adams apple.

Mr. Dulles:  Will you show us about where it was?
Dr. CARRICO. Just about where your tie would be.

Mr. Dulles:  Where did it enter?
Dr. CARRICO.  It entered?

Mr. Dulles:  Yes.
Dr. CARRICO. At the time we did not know.

<quote off>

Dulles forgot one of the central claims of the cover-up!

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On 6/11/2017 at 9:51 PM, Chris Newton said:

Cliff,

I agree that Harriman, Bush & Co. are equally suspicious as Dulles and Angleton. But, like John Newman, I think J.J. Angleton was the coup's "inside man" in the CIA and I have difficulty separating Angleton from Dulles. Would JJA keep his "Georgetown Set" best bro' in the dark?

Of course!  If Dulles didn't "need to know" he would not have known.

On 6/11/2017 at 9:51 PM, Chris Newton said:

I also don't doubt that Dulles was mentally incapacitated near-about his demise but I don't see any indication of that in the WC Executive transcripts. Dulles seems perfectly lucid to me in those sessions.

See his blunder with Carrico posted above.

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I am seeing a stovepiped operation that insulated Dulles from culpibility. I have already treated the question of foreknowledge in saying that even JFK have grave doubts about his ability to survive. I think everyone ( a lot of people in power) "knew" it was in the works.

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23 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Cliff - thank you for that. I had never read it. Pity that the criticisms did not not change the course of history. We still live with the legacy of the Dulles brothers manipulations. It's clear that JFK envisioned something quite different, with his attempts to institute a new foreign policy base on neutrality. When JFK fired Dulles, it sealed his doom. Surely you cannot read this document and think otherwise. Whatever disputes were going on behind the scenes in the halls of power, the more sensible voices lost. 

Its abundantly clear that Dulles thought he was above this. He ignored it as much as possible and went about his usual destructive business. And he wasnt alone. All those CIA guys in the covert arm were with him all the way. It hardly matters that he was old and losing it. Helms, Angleton, and so many others were part of this disgusting abuse of power.

Paul,

What did Dulles hope to gain by arranging the murder of Kennedy?  He wasn't going to get his old job back.  He wasn't working for clients at Sullivan Cromwell, was he?

Was revenge for getting fired his most significant motivation, in the Dulles-as-COO scenario?

Why would he stick his neck out with the Bancroft-to-Paines-to-Oswald connection?

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31 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Paul,

What did Dulles hope to gain by arranging the murder of Kennedy?  He wasn't going to get his old job back.  He wasn't working for clients at Sullivan Cromwell, was he?

Was revenge for getting fired his most significant motivation, in the Dulles-as-COO scenario?

Why would he stick his neck out with the Bancroft-to-Paines-to-Oswald connection?

Cliff, I find the Bancroft-Dulles-Paine's-Oswald leg interesting. The Henry Luce connection is in our face as well.

Thanks for raising these points.

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On 6/12/2017 at 5:27 PM, Martin Blank said:

You ask: "So how did the tools and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he came up with: “On instructions from Averell Harriman…. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodge’s own military assistant.”

 

The CIA got involved in  Vietnam in 1950 as CIA officers moved to French Indochina as a part of the legation of the United States in the city of Saigon. After their arrival, CIA involvement expanded to a new large base in Hanoi.  I doubt Harvey had a monopoly on these methods and skills.

Near as I can tell there were 3 perhaps overlapping Death Squads -- Bill Harvey's CIA operation ZRIFLE; Charles Siragusa's Federal Bureau of Narcotics "Operation Underworld" crew; and the CIA Technical Services Staff's MKNAOMI.

On 6/12/2017 at 5:27 PM, Martin Blank said:

 

you say:

Harriman/Bush were in on the drug trade and used those State-Department-upsetting CIA operations cowboys for gun/dope running?

remember what gary underhill said: 


Only hours after Kennedy was shot, CIA agent Gary Underhill left 
Washington, D.C., and drove to the home of friends on Long Island, N.Y. 
Underhill says he fears for his life and he must leave the country. 
"This country is too dangerous for me. I've got to get on a boat.Oswald 
is a patsy. They set him up. It's too much. The bastards have done 
something outrageous. They've killed the president! I've been listening 
and hearing things. I couldn't believe they'd get away with it, but they 
did.They've gone made! They're a bunch of drug runners and gun runners-a 
real violence group.I know who they are. That's the problem. They know I 
know. That's why I'm here.''

 The friends offered Underhill sanctuary but he left, never to return. 
Six months later, he was dead, a "suicide.'' The bullet was in his left 
temple. Underhill was right-handed.

The Gary Underhill Scenario I take very seriously.

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2 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

What to make of his questioning of Dr. Carrico:

<quote on, emphasis added>

Mr. Specter:  Will you describe, as specifically as you can then, the neck wounds which you heretofore mentioned briefly?
Dr. CARRICO. There was a small wound, 5- to 8-mm. in size, located in the lower third of the neck, below the thyroid cartilage, the Adams apple.

Mr. Dulles:  Will you show us about where it was?
Dr. CARRICO. Just about where your tie would be.

Mr. Dulles:  Where did it enter?
Dr. CARRICO.  It entered?

Mr. Dulles:  Yes.
Dr. CARRICO. At the time we did not know.

<quote off>

Dulles forgot one of the central claims of the cover-up!

Dulles forgot one of the central claims of the cover-up!

It certainly would seem to be a blunder, wouldn't it?  However it could be simply explained by the fact that the Dulles Carrico interview was March 24, 1964, and the single bullet theory didn't become the official working  WC theory until late April 1964.

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16 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Dulles forgot one of the central claims of the cover-up!

It certainly would seem to be a blunder, wouldn't it?  However it could be simply explained by the fact that the Dulles Carrico interview was March 24, 1964, and the single bullet theory didn't become the official working  WC theory until late April 1964.Whatever criticisms can be made of Dulles work in the WC, such as not pursuing certain lines of questioning, he never felt obligated to devise the single bullet theory.

Sorry, I'm not sure how this became 2 posts

 

Edited by Kirk Gallaway
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10 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Dulles forgot one of the central claims of the cover-up!

It certainly would seem to be a blunder, wouldn't it?  However it could be simply explained by the fact that the Dulles Carrico interview was March 24, 1964, and the single bullet theory didn't become the official working  WC theory until late April 1964.

 

I dunno.  Dulles had to be aware of the basic attorney's adage to never bring up a question that you can't answer yourself.  I'm thinking that he knew that there was no way of definitively citing the throat would as an entrance, and Carrico's answer that the wound was about where the necktie knot would be prompted Dulles to ask his question, so Carrico would say he couldn't specify the entrance point. So Dulles may not have slipped, nor gambled.

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On June 13, 2017 at 4:42 PM, Kirk Gallaway said:

Michael, No standing member of the CIA was in the WC....

...........

In this tape, complements of DVP and Youtube.....

https://youtu.be/U04JoeAJOCQ

 

This recording has a few interesting remarks about the TFX scandal. JFK is saying, almost amused, and stating that there really is no scandal, that the scandal is rooted in the fact that no-one wanted to move to Kansas. 

Also if interest is the affection that JFK displays towards his brother. 

Edited by Michael Clark
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On 6/14/2017 at 9:21 AM, David Andrews said:

 

I dunno.  Dulles had to be aware of the basic attorney's adage to never bring up a question that you can't answer yourself.  I'm thinking that he knew that there was no way of definitively citing the throat would as an entrance, and Carrico's answer that the wound was about where the necktie knot would be prompted Dulles to ask his question, so Carrico would say he couldn't specify the entrance point. So Dulles may not have slipped, nor gambled.

Dave, So you're saying Dulles baited Carrico into saying he couldn't specify an entry point, by assuming the "multiple gunman throat entry" stance knowing he would be corrected by Carrico?.

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