The Dulles Debate -- Assassination COO? Back-Up Patsy?

[David Andrews]

3 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Dave, So you're saying Dulles baited Carrico into saying he couldn't specify an entry point, by assuming the "multiple gunman throat entry" stance knowing he would be corrected by Carrico?.

Essentially, yes - though I would call it the "conscientious investigator" stance.  It's hard to imagine Dulles leaving himself wide open to anything,  One could compare his interjection here to other times he brought up a specific question and see if his questions open an issue or close it.  I suspect it's the latter.

Throat wound by the necktie knot?  Gosh, JFK wore his necktie on the front of his shirt.  Where was the entrance for that, doctor?  Don't want the public to be confused.

Edited June 15, 2017 by David Andrews

[Cliff Varnell]

On 6/12/2017 at 9:55 AM, Joe Bauer said:

I don't recall seeing in print or hearing in interviews, any major JFK researchers taking a firm yes or no stance on the Dealey Plaza 11,22,1963 photo purported to show Ed Lansdale walking by the police escorted "Tramps" which Fletcher Prouty clearly believed was him.

If this photo is truly of Landsdale, then wouldn't his presence there in the middle of the crime scene be a powerfully convincing indication as to his major involvement in it's planning and execution?  Of course it would. And wasn't this operational aspect of covert action his forte?

So who did Lansdale answer to at that time and right after?

Was the suspected Lansdale Dealey Plaza photo ever analyzed by credible identification experts? Or has no one ever committed the time and money to that endeavor?

My own take ( admittedly totally untrained ) on that well known photo and comparing it to every photo of Lansdale I could find on the internet tells me it is him. Of course I am swayed by Fletcher Prouty's interview take on this and his letter from Victor Krulak's also affirming his belief that the photo does indeed show Lansdale. 

Joe, I also find the Prouty/Krulak ID of the right-shoulder-drooped Ed Lansdale compelling.

What I don't find compelling is the notion that anyone directly involved with the murder of JFK would still be hanging out in Dealey Plaza two hours later.

I find compelling the notion that Ed Lansdale was part of a piggy-back operation designed to kill Oswald and frame Castro.  It  would make sense in such a scenario that he'd be in Dealey to bring the back-up patsies in from "the cold."

#1 contingency blame Oswald/Castro conspiracy. 

#2 contingency blame a Lone Nut. 

#3 contingency blame a bunch of right wingers like E. Howard Hunt and Charles V. Harrelson.

Hunt took the fall for Watergate; Harrelson went down for the murder of Judge John H. Woods.  Career patsies?  Were they wearing a patsy jacket on 11/22/63 and Lansdale had to go down to Dealey to dismantle the frame?

http://newcombat.net/Conversation/angleton-helms-memo-re-hunt/

Edited June 20, 2017 by Cliff Varnell

[George Sawtelle]

Cliff

Thank you for your theory. You seem to have put some thought into it backed up by documentation. You, like Talbot, have the courage to name the CEO of the assassination and haven't let the LN's scare you away and for that I commend you.

Have you put any thought into the operational end of the assassination? That is, who fired the shots, how many shots were fired, how many shooters, Oswald's role, etc. Assuming that you have, does each piece of evidence that forms an integral part of the assassination fit with all other integral parts (evidence) and that they all lead to the CEO, has that been done by you or anyone else who believes as you do?  

[Paul Brancato]

10 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Joe, I also find the Prouty/Krulak ID of the right-shoulder-drooped Ed Lansdale compelling.

What I don't find compelling is the notion that anyone directly involved with the murder of JFK would still be hanging out in Dealey Plaza two hours later.

I find compelling the notion that Ed Lansdale was part of a piggy-back operation designed to kill Oswald and frame Castro.  It  would make sense in such a scenario that he'd be in Dealey to bring the back-up patsies in from "the cold."

#1 contingency blame Oswald/Castro conspiracy. 

#2 contingency blame a Lone Nut. 

#3 contingency blame a bunch of right wingers like E. Howard Hunt and Charles V. Harrelson.

Hunt took the fall for Watergate; Harrelson went down for the murder of Judge John H. Woods.  Career patsies?  Were they wearing a patsy jacket on 11/22/63 and Lansdale had to go down to Dealey to dismantle the frame?

http://newcombat.net/Conversation/angleton-helms-memo-re-hunt/

Cliff - how familiar are you with the work of Daniel Sheehan, and with Mae Brussel?

[Cliff Varnell]

9 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Cliff - how familiar are you with the work of Daniel Sheehan, and with Mae Brussel?

Fair to middlin'.

Reading Mae Brussell in The Realist was the beginning of my second "education" which continues to this day.

I think Sheehan is one of the great heroes of the 80's.

[Paul Brancato]

Then we are on the same page. Suggest you listen to Sheehans 2012 lecture series entitled The Trajectory of Justice, about his experience in trying to bring Theodore Shackley and his team to justice. 

Edited June 20, 2017 by Paul Brancato

[Ron Bulman]

9 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Then we are on the same page. Suggest you listen to Sheehans 2012 lecture series entitled The Trajectory of Justice, about his experience in trying to bring Theodore Shackley and his team to justice. 

Whoosh.  Right over my head.  It's probably already been done on the forum but can either of you elaborate concisely (Cliff)?  I've read  none of Sheehan, a little of Ms. Brussels and have JFK by Prouty and read/watched from his website.  R.E. "Shackley...".  How did he play into all this? 

[Jeffrey Reilley]

4 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Whoosh.  Right over my head.  It's probably already been done on the forum but can either of you elaborate concisely (Cliff)?  I've read  none of Sheehan, a little of Ms. Brussels and have JFK by Prouty and read/watched from his website.  R.E. "Shackley...".  How did he play into all this? 

He was the station chief at JM/WAVE, I believe. All of the CIA's red flags, in regards to possible assassination guilt seem to come from the Miami station...ie David Morales, David Atlee Phillips, and that ilk.

[Jeffrey Reilley]

As well, he had worked under William Harvey in the 50's. Harvey, in my eyes, has blood stains on his hands. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, Shackley was station chief, and Harvey sent three commando teams into Cuba, fully convinced that the US was going to invade. During the Operation Mongoose days, when the US government was diddling with the mob, Shackley was JMWAVE's station chief. After that failed, Shackley went to Laos and helped ruin that civilization for the foreseeable future. He also recruited David Sanchez Morales in that venture. All in all, there is a good chance that Mr. Shackley had a lot to do with some very bad deeds.

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, Jeffrey Reilley said:

As well, he had worked under William Harvey in the 50's. Harvey, in my eyes, has blood stains on his hands. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, Shackley was station chief, and Harvey sent three commando teams into Cuba, fully convinced that the US was going to invade. During the Operation Mongoose days, when the US government was diddling with the mob, Shackley was JMWAVE's station chief. After that failed, Shackley went to Laos and helped ruin that civilization for the foreseeable future. He also recruited David Sanchez Morales in that venture. All in all, there is a good chance that Mr. Shackley had a lot to do with some very bad deeds.

Jeffrey, and Ron,

Shackley became CIA Miami station Chief in 1960. Prior to that he was in the OSS, was stationed in Germany with Harvey, working directly with Gehlen (at first as his translator), Germany's security chief who had been one of Hitler's generals. In 1965 he was sent to Vietnam, ran Operation Phoenix, and oversaw the Laotian/CIA opium trade. Eventually Shackley became chief of Western Hemisphere operation, worked in that capacity while George Bush was CIA director. He doesn't get mentioned much in JFK assassination materials, but definitely he should be. He was the top of what Sheehan calls the Secret Team. If you listen to the lectures I mentioned in my post to Cliff, he looks at Shackley closely, and eventually ties in the Secret Team to the ruling structures in 20th century US history, specifically Brown Brothers Harriman and Sullivan and Cromwell. Have fun. In my opinion it's this nexus that is so important to understand if one wants to make sense of our history.

[Ron Bulman]

Thanks, I knew Shackley had been station chief at JMWAVE during the assassination period and slightly before.  I thought I'd read that people like Phillips and Morales went around him some how regarding reporting and authorization of operations, maybe reporting directly to Helms?  I did not realize he was Gehlen's interpreter or that he ran Phoenix.  It all gets so deep.  Throw in Joannides maintaining a residence in New Orleans in the summer of 63 and I read earlier somewhere on this site of another agent reportedly encountering Harvey on a flight to Dallas in November 63.  I know the latter is not part of the BBH/Sullivan and Cromwell aspect, it goes in a different direction, yet it all seems to connect.

[Paul Brancato]

I think Harvey fits well with the BBH/S+C scenario. He was stationed with Shackley in Germany. He was put in charge of ZR/Rifle, which came out of Operation 40, Nixon's project while VP. Nixon is totally in the loop, having been supported by Prescott Bush (some say hand picked) during Nixon's political rise. Prescott succeeded George Herbert Walker as CEO of BBH, and fathered George HW Bush, who along with Jack Crichton provided funding and logistical support for Operation 40. Nixon later rewarded George Bush, appointing him to UN rep. Ford, who pardoned Nixon, appointed Bush to head the CIA.

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 7:44 PM, Paul Brancato said:

I think Harvey fits well with the BBH/S+C scenario. He was stationed with Shackley in Germany. He was put in charge of ZR/Rifle, which came out of Operation 40, Nixon's project while VP. Nixon is totally in the loop, having been supported by Prescott Bush (some say hand picked) during Nixon's political rise. Prescott succeeded George Herbert Walker as CEO of BBH, and fathered George HW Bush, who along with Jack Crichton provided funding and logistical support for Operation 40. Nixon later rewarded George Bush, appointing him to UN rep. Ford, who pardoned Nixon, appointed Bush to head the CIA.

Paul, Harvey's (no pun intended) wife's statements are interesting.

http://jfkfacts.org/cia-widow-denounced-jfk-jackie-and-rfk-then-she-expressed-love-for-a-gangster/

[Ron Ecker]

On 6/12/2017 at 2:23 AM, Kirk Gallaway said:

Pretty heavy duty tickets in 1960 when you compare some of the running mates now, Mike Pence, Tim Kaine, Sarah Palin..

 

In 1960 the U.S. was not a glorified banana republic.

I'm surprised that no colonels are running for prez for VP, since colonels make such good dictators. (Juan Peron, Qadaffi, the Regime of the Colonels in Greece.) I would vote for Colonel Sanders except that he's dead.

Maybe DVP can recommend someone to run on the populist slogan "Make Fried Chicken Great Again."

 

[Kirk Gallaway]

6 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

In 1960 the U.S. was not a glorified banana republic.

I'm surprised that no colonels are running for prez for VP, since colonels make such good dictators. (Juan Peron, Qadaffi, the Regime of the Colonels in Greece.) I would vote for Colonel Sanders except that he's dead.

Maybe DVP can recommend someone to run on the populist slogan "Make Fried Chicken Great Again."

 

Ron, If you're talking specifically about DVP's KFC. As time goes on for me, that would be like saying "Make Flatulence Great Again!"

Edited July 3, 2017 by Kirk Gallaway