David Talbot's posting today from Italy

[Paul Brancato]

12 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

It didn't have to be Dulles setting up the Paine's personally per se.  It is entirely possible, some might say probable, that he could have suggested their use given his knowledge of and about them.  It is even more reasonable to think somebody in the CIA realized Ruth's sister worked for them, her dad had been in the OSS and worked for AID.  That Michael's step dad in essence invented the most useful Bell helicopter and that he already had a security clearance working there.  We already know that de Morenschildt had contact with CIA agent J Walton Moore in Dallas, documented.  I believe I've read GDM said in later years he would never have contacted Oswald without Moore's authorization or (?) suggestion to do so.  George later hands off the Oswasld's to the sister of a current Cia employee and daughter of a former OSS agent and gets the hell out of town.  Might someone, Dulles influenced or not, have suggested to Moore that he, an associate or employee contact Ruth and or Michael in regards to helping the good old USA keep an eye on the activities of a recently returned Russian defector and his Russian wife?  Especially such a woman who spoke Russian?  This might help explain Michael's attendance of both left and right wing gatherings in Dallas.  As well as Ruth's trip to see her sister and others in the summer of 63 them pick up Marina and (unknowingly) the rifle (?) in New Orleans.  And those files in the garage on Castro reporters.  Maybe the Paine's didn't have a "need to know" who was using them and how.  By the time they "both knew who was really responsible" they realized it was time to only say what they were told to.

Harvey deserves a separate post.  

Ron - good logic I think. 

[Paul Brancato]

13 minutes ago, David Andrews said:

So Cubans?

Also, not to go off track - and not specifically directed to Cliff - what is known about FBI's Division Five?  Death squad in reality, or just a rumor?

David - I hope someone knows something about Division 5. I recall Mae Brussell talking about it - a lot. Supposedly domestic counter terrorism? What have you been able to find out?

Edited June 25, 2017 by Paul Brancato

[Cliff Varnell]

On the broader subject of Death Squads also consider the crew who assassinated Fred Hampton -- the Chicago PD Red Squad.

How many big city police departments featured Death Squads?

Back to the subject of Allen Dulles -- a couple of questions -- What did Dulles have to gain by arranging the murder of JFK, besides revenge? What did Allen Dulles have to lose by arranging for family friends of his girlfriend to host the Oswalds?

Seems to me he had more to lose than gain.

On the subject of James Jesus Angleton -- looks to me like he screwed the pooch.  I speculate his job was to arrange the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald and frame Fidel Castro for the Kennedy hit.

He had two top psy-op guys as lieutenants -- Edward Lansdale and David Phillips.

But the plot failed when Oswald was captured alive, which put a whole lot of Agency connected guys in the patsy chain -- Ruby,and Tippit foremost -- with Howard Hunt and Allen Dulles in line to go down if the Agency were exposed with their fingerprints all over the patsy.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

16 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Maybe. But talbot is entitled to his well considered opinion.

He doesn't express Dulles-involvement as an opinion, but as an unchallengeable fact.

Don't get me wrong, Talbot's done excellent work, I'm a fan -- but his fingering Dulles as the heavy in the Kennedy assassination as a fact is unsupported by historical facts regarding personages more powerful than Dulles-Angleton-Harvey combined, and who may have acted in a supra-institutional channel a la the Corson Scenario.

 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Cliff Varnell

[George Sawtelle]

Cliff

What's the difference between a Corsican mafia hitman and an American mafia hitman? Same same right?

[Cliff Varnell]

More on the Underhill Scenario from Martin Blank:

You ask: "So how did the tools and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he came up with: “On instructions from Averell Harriman…. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodge’s own military assistant.”

 

The CIA got involved in  Vietnam in 1950 as CIA officers moved to French Indochina as a part of the legation of the United States in the city of Saigon. After their arrival, CIA involvement expanded to a new large base in Hanoi.  I doubt Harvey had a monopoly on these methods and skills.

 

you say:

Harriman/Bush were in on the drug trade and used those State-Department-upsetting CIA operations cowboys for gun/dope running?

 

remember what gary underhill said: 

Only hours after Kennedy was shot, CIA agent Gary Underhill left 
Washington, D.C., and drove to the home of friends on Long Island, N.Y. 
Underhill says he fears for his life and he must leave the country. 
"This country is too dangerous for me. I've got to get on a boat.Oswald 
is a patsy. They set him up. It's too much. The bastards have done 
something outrageous. They've killed the president! I've been listening 
and hearing things. I couldn't believe they'd get away with it, but they 
did.They've gone made! They're a bunch of drug runners and gun runners-a 
real violence group.I know who they are. That's the problem. They know I 
know. That's why I'm here.''

 The friends offered Underhill sanctuary but he left, never to return. 
Six months later, he was dead, a "suicide.'' The bullet was in his left 
temple. Underhill was right-handed.

 

[Cliff Varnell]

6 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said:

Cliff

What's the difference between a Corsican mafia hitman and an American mafia hitman? Same same right?

The Corsicans in 1963 dominated the production of heroin but not its distribution.

The Sicilian-American Outfit along with their blue-blood WASP allies dominated the distribution of heroin, and moved the center of opuim production from Turkey to the Golden Triangle.

Eventually the opium fields in Turkey were shut down and the "French Connection" of Corsican narcotics traffickers smashed.

 

[Joe Bauer]

How much credibility has been given to this statement by Gary Underhill ... and by whom?  

If true, Underhill expresses his frightened almost disbelieve that the forces he believed were behind the assassination actually carried this assignment out and even got away with it.

Since that time of course, MLK and RFK were also taken out. Seems the forces who got JFK felt emboldened enough with that success to continue their murderous policy of taking out the top society influencing icons of that era, no matter how high their level of national popularity and political standing.

One could imagine Gary Underhill's feelings if he had lived to see MLK and then RFK taken out.

Whether there was a Corsican Mafia hit team or an American one, remember Colonel Dan Marvin ( who posted right here on this forum ) stating in his TMWKK interview, that our secret agencies would contract out to the Mafia to do hits in this country where they couldn't do these themselves per the dictates of their original charter.

And when one listens to Bill Harvey's wife reflecting in a late year's retirement home interview on her and her husband's personal hatred feelings regards JFK and Jackie Kennedy during his presidency "they were real scum" and that they felt Mafiosi Johnny Roselli was a real patriot ( versus JFK  and RFK being the opposite ) and Roselli being someone who Bill Harvey would prefer riding shotgun with, I think any reasonably intelligent person can see Dan Marvin's take on the JFK hit seems more believable the more we know of how married these dangerous wings of our secret agencies were with the murderous and corrupt Mafia.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Paul Brancato]

What, or who, was Underhill afraid of?

question I have is when we call something the mafia, or the CIA, or the Eastern Establishment, aren't we missing the point? The entity we seek is most likely parts of all of the above and others. The drug trade wasn't Harriman's private business. It's supranational. Wall Street isn't just NY bankers. Brown Brothers Harriman wasn't just good old boys from Harvard and Yale. It was international. WW 2 didn't put an end to the Nazis. Private security networks predate and postdate the CIA. Just look at Permindex. Was it Mossad? CIA? Italian and European fascists? All of the above. 

So, since I haven't read Underhill in a while, did he name names?

Edited June 26, 2017 by Paul Brancato

[David Andrews]

12 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

David - I hope someone knows something about Division 5. I recall Mae Brussell talking about it - a lot. Supposedly domestic counter terrorism? What have you been able to find out?

Division Five is cited many places - including MLK in Memphis - but never with any definitive history.  Sometimes I see its existence denied.  So - reality or rumor.  Larry Hancock?

[Larry Hancock]

I'm sure Ernie could give you chapter and verse on it far better than I but basically the function was very real, officially it would be referred to as the counter-intelligence division, charged with domestic activities countering foreign agents, their surrogates and addressing both potential subversion and sabotage. That would separate its activities from routine investigation of the violation of federal statures and criminal investigations. My impression is that at the field office level agents could serve in all three roles at times depending on manpower availability but there certainly was a "subversive" beat.  Which makes it very interesting as to what Hosty was talking about in telling the SS agent that Oswald had been observed with "subversives".  It would probably imply that an agent monitoring such targets (lets say something like Cuban exiles planning attacks on Cuba) would have seen Oswald come into view during the surveillance. Another example would be the Tumbleweed thing, where CIA handed off a Soviet asset coming from Europe to the US and then doing interesting subversive things in the US as well as crossing into Mexico for unknown purposes - something we have learned very little about. 

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

I'm sure Ernie could give you chapter and verse on it far better than I but basically the function was very real, officially it would be referred to as the counter-intelligence division, charged with domestic activities countering foreign agents, their surrogates and addressing both potential subversion and sabotage. That would separate its activities from routine investigation of the violation of federal statures and criminal investigations. My impression is that at the field office level agents could serve in all three roles at times depending on manpower availability but there certainly was a "subversive" beat.  Which makes it very interesting as to what Hosty was talking about in telling the SS agent that Oswald had been observed with "subversives".  It would probably imply that an agent monitoring such targets (lets say something like Cuban exiles planning attacks on Cuba) would have seen Oswald come into view during the surveillance. Another example would be the Tumbleweed thing, where CIA handed off a Soviet asset coming from Europe to the US and then doing interesting subversive things in the US as well as crossing into Mexico for unknown purposes - something we have learned very little about. 

Mr. Hancock, as I'm still new here...  When you mention counter intelligence are you referring to Angleton and co. ?    I've seen reference to Division 5 before but really know nothing about what you and Mr. Andrews are getting at.  Is a brief synopsis too much to ask (any detail would be appreciated as well)?   (I have SWHT and Nexus if they have any bearing I'm forgetting)

P.S.  Who's Ernie?

Edited June 26, 2017 by Ron Bulman

[George Sawtelle]

Joe B

You said it better than could have said it. 

There is more evidence that two mafia hit teams were in Dealey Plaza the day Kennedy was killed. No evidence of a corsican hit team.

Edited June 26, 2017 by George Sawtelle

[Cliff Varnell]

5 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

What, or who, was Underhill afraid of?

question I have is when we call something the mafia, or the CIA, or the Eastern Establishment, aren't we missing the point? The entity we seek is most likely parts of all of the above and others. The drug trade wasn't Harriman's private business. It's supranational. Wall Street isn't just NY bankers. Brown Brothers Harriman wasn't just good old boys from Harvard and Yale. It was international. WW 2 didn't put an end to the Nazis. Private security networks predate and postdate the CIA. Just look at Permindex. Was it Mossad? CIA? Italian and European fascists? All of the above. 

So, since I haven't read Underhill in a while, did he name names?

I think we're looking at supra-national/supra-institutional entities involved in Guns-Oil-Drugs.

[Ernie Lazar]

See:  https://archive.org/search.php?query=FOIA%3A FBI Domestic Intelligence Division

Division 5 has been known by different names over the decades:

World War I = Bureau of Investigation with jurisdiction over national security matter such as espionage, sabotage

1918 = Radical Division created which was re-named General Intelligence Division; it collected public source material on radicals; abolished 1924

Circa 1935 = revived by FDR to investigate fascist/communist movement

1941 = Became National Defense Division but renamed Security Division in 1943; From 1941-1949 headed by D. Milton Ladd 

Orin H. Bartlett = #1 Man in Atomic Energy Liaison Unit

William A. Branigan = #1 Man in Espionage Unit

Frederick J. Baumgardner = Section Chief, Internal Security Section and previously Section Chief, Espionage Section and #1 Man

Joseph J. Casper = #1 Man, Loyalty Section and previously Supervisor in Internal Security Unit

William V. Cleveland = #1 Man, Internal Security Section and Acting Section Chief due to illness of actual Section Chief

Emory M. Gregg = Supervisor, Espionage Unit

Calvin B. Howard -= Supervisor, Communist Front Desk

Nathaniel R. Johnson = Supervisor, Loyalty Section

Victor P. Keay = Section Chief, Atomic Energy-Liaison Unit

Earl F. Lane = Internal Security Unit (Cominil labor organizations)

Joseph J. Meehan = Supervisor, Espionage Unit

J. Earl Milnes = Supervisor, Security Index matters

Donald E. Moore =  Supervisor, Internal Security Unit

S. Wesley Reynolds – Correlation-Liaison Section – especially liaison with Army Military Intelligence

Ralph R. Roach = Supervisor, Atomic Energy-Liaision Unit

Joseph L. Schmidt = Supervisor, Internal Security Unit

Charles H. Stanley = Supervisor, Loyalty Unit

Robert W. Wall = Section Chief, Loyalty Section

Lish Whitson – Section Chief, Espionage Section

Earll Hugo Winterrowd = Ladd’s immediate assistant and previously assigned to preparation of CPUSA Brief.

Ralph R. Roach = Supervisor, Atomic Energy-Liaison Unit (liaison with State Department and White House)

George H, Scatterday = Supervisor, Internal Security Unit, esp Communist Front organizations

W. Raymond Wannall = Supervisor, Espionage Unit

Kline Weatherford – Supervisor, Internal Security Section

 

09/30/51 – 6/1/61 = Hoover appointed Alan Belmont as Assistant Director, Division 5

02/60 = Belmont became FBI liaison to U.S. Intelligence Board headed by Allen W. Dulles

6/2/61 – 12/30/65 = Belmont promoted to Assistant to Director—Investigative (replacing Donald J. Parsons who retired). In this position he supervised/directed Laboratory, General Investigative, Special Investigative and Domestic Intelligence Divisions

Domestic Intelligence Division composed of two Branches: (1) Espionage and Research and (2) Internal Security and Liaison which had sub-sections for internal security, liaison, and subversive control

6/2/61 = William C. Sullivan became Assistant Director, Domestic Intelligence Division with 113 Special Agents and 150 clerical personnel in the Division as of 10/31/62.  According to 12/11/62 DID Inspection Report, Inspector Joseph A. Sizoo was Sullivan’s #1 man and Branch Chief of Internal Security—Liaison Branch since 9/15/53; and Inspector Donald E. Moore, Branch Chief, Espionage-Central Research Branch since 10/14/56.

06/10/70 = Sullivan promoted to Assistant to Director--Investigative (#3 position in Bureau) succeeding Cartha DeLoach who retired. In this position, Sullivan was responsible for Domestic Intelligence Division, General Investigative Division, Special Investigative Division and the FBI Laboratory

10/12/70 = Sullivan speech to UPI editors at Williamsburg VA precipitated feud with Hoover because Sullivan stated that CPUSA was not particularly effective or a problem whereas New Left was (such as SDS).  According to UPI report (see NYT, 10/13/70, p27, “FBI Aide Doubts That Teds Cause Unrest in U.S.”) 

“A high FBI official said today the Communist Party ‘is not in any way causing or directing or controlling the unrest we suffer today in the racial field and in the academic community.’  William C. Sullivan, top assistant to FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, said Communists ‘do attempt to exploit troubled situations’ wherever they can but he said ‘The Communist Party today is not nearly as extensive or effective as it was a number of years ago.’  Addressing the 1970 UPI Editors and Publishers Conference, Sullivan said the United States would be having problems ‘to a greater or lesser extent if the Communist Party in this country didn’t exist at all. Now, on the other side of the coin, we do have many of these students – some of their professors support them – espousing their own particular interpretation of Marx.  And they openly proclaim their Marxism.  Some go so far as to add Leninism.  There are others who embrace Trotskyite interpretation of Communist ideology generally and Marxism particularly.  There are those who accept the Chinese version.’  But the FBI official said there is no evidence that any one group of people or any single nationwide conspiracy is behind disorders on the campus or in the ghettos.”

9/30/71 = Hoover letter to Sullivan relieved him of his duties and placed him on annual leave pending receipt of retirement papers.

10/21/71 = Sullivan retired from FBI

2/73 = DID split into an Intelligence Division (for foreign counterintelligence) and a General Investigative Division (for domestic intelligence matters)

1993 = Domestic Intelligence Division became the National Security Division

ADDENDUM:

The personnel files of all the Assistant Directors of Division 5 from the 1940's thru 1971 are in my FBI Files collection on Internet Archive (D. Milton Ladd, Alan Belmont, William C. Sullivan):

https://archive.org/details/ernie1241_fbiemployees?sort=titleSorter

Edited June 26, 2017 by Ernie Lazar