GROUNDBREAKING NEWS! OSWALD'S TRUE MAIL-ORDERED CARCANO 91 FOUND LAST WEEK IN ITALIAN MUSEUM...

[David Josephs]

The Rifle has been a subject near and dear....  With the help of long time researchers I was able to compile a fairly detailed account of THAT rifle and how it could not be THE rifle.

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf

 

With respect to Alberto's post...  using a sabot would allow the 6.5mm copper bullet to be fired from a 7.35mm rifle.  Bullets retrieved at the scene does NOT prove what type of weapon was used... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot   

And if the conclusion of a STEEL jacketed bullet comes from the Walker shooting report, I found no relation to Oswald with the Walker shooting...  Oswald did not load anything into that rifle... Oswald never even saw or came in contact with CE139.  The evidentiary record shows that CE399 comes into existence when SS Chief Rowley gives it to Elmer Todd...  Except the evidence shows Frazier receives the bullet twice... and that Todd's notes does not have him in possession of said bullet until after Frazier claims to already have it.

I also have to take issue with the mathematics offered at the start of the 6-part series.  I hate to say it but it's simply not correct.  I work at a Lottery and my job includes the working of odds given certain events.  The theoretical possibility of a group of people all getting something wrong is simply not calculated that way. Furthermore, your formula of 50% chance at being right to the 47th power due to the number of people dismisses the fact that the SAME formula would be used to state all 47 people were correct about the Grassy Knoll if all 47 said Grassy Knoll.  

Furthermore, what if the shots came from the South Knoll and the County Records Building?  What are the chances of being correct given the choice of GK or TSBD?
0% - so the odds of 47 getting it wrong would be 100%  Look at it this way:  Given that shots were fired and killed JFK in DP, what are the odds that 47 people will identify the same location as the source of these shots?  Whether they are right or wrong is not the point... since we cannot conclusively say where the shooter(s) were given the available evidence.

The "event" Alberto defines is what people "believed" to be the source location without proof.  There are no "odds of many people being right or wrong".  
Another way...  flipping a coin does in fact only have 2 outcomes (as opposed to the only 2 choices given in your analysis).  There is no 3rd possibility for the flipped coin as opposed to the Grassy Knoll question.  There are also observable outcomes... heads or tails - no opinions or guesses.  Flipping 47 "heads" in a row is the question to your mathematical answer... being right or wrong is not a 50/50 proposition.  It has a 50% probability yet the formula is Outcome #1=100%, outcome #2=0%, the probability of either a head or tail is 50%.  What are the odds of 500 people being wrong when they say the coin-toss result was "square"?  100% since that outcome option was not available to those calling the coin toss.

So let's just drop the "astronomical odds that 47 people would all be wrong" since that math has no connection to reality.  Fetzer/Cinque tried that with Oswald in the doorway.  Astronomical odds that the shirt Lovelady has on is the same as Oswald's...  pure mathematical BS.

Alberto, if you haven't already, you might get quite a lot out of the linked work I did on the rifle issue.  We agree on some of the conclusions yet we arrive at them very differently..
Please don't take any of this as an attack.  Building an argument on the shaky ground of voodoo math will never serve you well in the long run...

 

When/If you read the above piece, the one thing that should jump out is that the record does not show the removal of said rifle from it's cartons at Harborside.  That there is evidence of a June 1962 shipment to Kleins despite the first removal of cartons from the C2766 shipment is not removed until August 1962....

These are the details behind the opinions.   The shooting was initially a conspiracy plan so multiple shooters with multiple bullets makes sense.  Sabots make sense.  The TSBD rifle may have been a 7.35mm weapon...  but until there is a chain that connects where the rifle was (w/Oswald, at DPD, at FBI, back at DPD, back to FBI....) to this museum in Italy, 

 

Q1. Between 4905 Magazine on Sept 23 and Ruth Paine's house October 4th...  how did the rifle get from New Orleans to Irving?
Q2. When Oswald picked up the 5 foot cardboard box after handing the non-existent postcard from his PO Box to the clerk the week of March 27th... how did he get it home? and do you supposed the penny pinching Oswald would not keep the box to protect the rifle as they move from place to place? No matter, here is the relevant testimony:

Mr. JENNER - It was in the open so you could see what went into your car? 
Mrs. PAINE - I think so. I certainly then repacked it to go to New Orleans. 
Mr. JENNER - Well, I want to stick with this occasion, please. 
Mrs. PAINE - All right. 
Mr. JENNER - Was there a rifle packed in the back of the car? 
Mrs. PAINE - No. 
Mr. JENNER - You didn't see any kind of weapon? 
Mrs. PAINE - No. 
Mr. JENNER - Firearm, rifle, pistol, or otherwise? 
Mrs. PAINE - No; I saw nothing of that nature. 
Mr. JENNER - Did you drive them to your home? 
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. 
Mr. JENNER - Were the materials and things in your station wagon unpacked and placed in your home? 
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; immediately. 
Mr. JENNER - Did you see that being done, were you present? 
Mrs. PAINE - I helped do it; yes. 
Mr. JENNER - Did you see any weapon on that occasion? 
Mrs. PAINE - No. 
Mr. JENNER - Whether a rifle, pistol or-- 
Mrs. PAINE - No. 
Mr. JENNER - Or any covering, any package, that looked as though it might have a weapon, pistol, or firearm? 
Mrs. PAINE - No. 

Representative BOGGS - Did you see the rifle that he had in the room in your home? 
Mrs. PAINE - In the garage, no. 
Representative BOGGS - In the garage, you never saw one? 
Mrs. PAINE - I never saw that rifle at all until the police showed it to me in the station on the 22d of November. 

[George Sawtelle]

Andrej

The FBI asked the Dallas PD to send them the rifle found on the sixth floor TSBD so they could check for fingerprints. When the FBI sent back the rifle they sent the rifle used in the shooting and kept the rifle found on the sixth floor TSBD.

Assuming no one destroyed the rifle found on the sixth floor TSBD it could very well have ended up in Italy taken there by US agents looking for information on the rifle.

[George Sawtelle]

David

Thank you for your article "The evidence is the conspiracy". Much respect for you ... that is a lot of work. You are to be commended for your work in seeking the truth.

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

Andrej

The FBI asked the Dallas PD to send them the rifle found on the sixth floor TSBD so they could check for fingerprints. When the FBI sent back the rifle they sent the rifle used in the shooting and kept the rifle found on the sixth floor TSBD.

Assuming no one destroyed the rifle found on the sixth floor TSBD it could very well have ended up in Italy taken there by US agents looking for information on the rifle.

A team of CIA agents per the first post went to Italy, took A rifle with them to inspect the factory, then they ran off and left it there, in a corner.  Excuse my skepticism.  The one that Oswald ordered (not)?  It would still supposedly (if he ever ordered it, much less picked it up) be evidence they were taking off to Europe and then leaving behind.  Of course they didn't need it as the Warren Omission already had one for the record.  Why bother deep sixing or destroying this one?  Has anyone ever seen any mention of this trip in the WC Report?

For some reason the first time I read the first post in this thread I thought of Bonar Menninger, Mortal Error, The Smoking Gun.

[Chris Newton]

8 hours ago, David Josephs said:

No matter, here is the relevant testimony:

Mr. JENNER - It was in the open so you could see what went into your car? 
Mrs. PAINE - BLAH... BLAH... BLAH... (bold mine -CN)

Outside of the main argument to this thread (in which I agree with you)...

...I think your standing on very swampy ground when you cite any part of Ruth Paine's testimony to support a theory. In another recent thread, in this forum, I've found some serious inconsistencies, perjurious testimony and indications of probable collusion to alter evidence with the WC and Counsel Jenner.

Ruth testimony of how her car was unloaded is equally vague.

 

Note what appears to be a "sailfish" type sailboat in the garage.

Quote

Mr. JENNER - Were the materials and things in your station wagon unpacked and placed in your home? 
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; immediately. 
Mr. JENNER - Did you see that being done, were you present? 
Mrs. PAINE - I helped do it; yes. 

In the quoted portion above, Ruth is very evasive as to how her station wagon was unloaded and it's never explained who did it. Ruth says she "helped". Marina was 8+ months pregnant. Trivia: There was a sailboat strapped to the car's roof rack. I think it can be seen, faintly, attached to the ceiling in the WC photo taken of the garage interior.   Who took the sailboat off the roof rack of the car and put it up there?  Not very pregnant Ruth and Marina.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=39&relPageId=27&search=boat

Why didn't MR. JENNER ask her who else unloaded the car?

Edited July 12, 2017 by Chris Newton
note : bold mine

[David Josephs]

Appreciate the comment Chris....

Funny thing....  no mention of the sailboat.  This was Ruth's from her "family trip"? cause it surely wasn't the Oswald's.   What I do see in the rafters of the garage in that image is a surfboard.... not a sailboat.   Where did this come into existence related to this trip and how do you know it was on the roof rack?

14 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

Why didn't MR. JENNER ask her who else unloaded the car?

Mr. LIEBELER - Now yesterday, we asked you about an incident or spoke to you about an incident that happened in September of 1963 when you went into your garage to use some tools, your garage in Irving, Tex. Would you tell us about that? 
Mr. PAINE - I don't remember whether the date was September. I remember that was the date they came back from New Orleans and I do remember that my wife asked me to unpack some of their heavy things from their car. I only recall unpacking duffelbags but any other package, that was the heaviest thing there and they were easy also. 
Mr. LIEBELER - You must have moved the duffelbags from the station wagon into the garage? 
Mr. PAINE - That is right. I unpacked whatever was remaining in the station wagon to the garage.

 

If Ruth was in league with the WCR lawyers, all she needed to say was she saw the rifle in the garage - any part of it.  Even Michael can't come to that conclusion.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did it occur to you at that time that there was a rifle in the package? 
Mr. PAINE - That did not occur to me. 

So while I agree wholeheartedly about Ruth's role... agreeing to place the rifle in his hands at any point in time appears to have been something she could not bring herself to do.

When someone of such dubious position tells the truth, to me it sticks out like a sore thumb.  Add to that Michael claiming to have seen the BYP Friday night and I think we all agree THAT rifle and our man Oswald had nothing to do with it.

[Michael Walton]

This breaking news sounds like pure Italian hokum to me.

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

This breaking news sounds like pure Italian hokum to me.

Bingo!

Apparently every 10 years (in years that end in "7") the Italians like to come up with something incredibly stupid concerning the JFK case. In 2007, it was the absurd "IT TAKES 19 SECONDS TO FIRE 3 SHOTS FROM A CARCANO" nonsense....

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.assassination.jfk/fO7k4MmCddQ/F4NDaPWXqIwJ

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2007/06/italian-experts-test-jfk-assassination.html

I wonder what the phony bombshell story from Italy will be in 2027?

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Chris Newton]

9 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Where did this come into existence related to this trip and how do you know it was on the roof rack?

It's my assumption that the boat is the one pictured in my post above. Simply because it's a boat in the garage and the only boat we have any evidence of, despite this evidence being "after the fact". The boat was on the rack according to Ruth's testimony here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=39&relPageId=17&search=boat

and here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=39&relPageId=27&search=boat

 

If "the boat" testified to was not hung from the ceiling of the garage in the WC garage photo and/or it was not the sailfish in the photo, what happened to it? It's interesting that Michael doesn't mention the boat. If I was a really suspicious person I might think his entire explanation is a lie and he had nothing to do with unloading the car since he doesn't mention the boat at all. Curious.

 

I do not think that everything that Ruth Paine testified to was a lie... but I think her entire testimony should be struck, if any part of it turns out to be perjury.

I think once you show part of it to be untrue then it's dangerous to "cherry pick" the rest of it.

 

Furthermore, I think It can be shown that Ruth perjured herself at least three times both in the testimony as to the provenance of the Oswald draft of the "Kostin" Letter and subsequently in testimony designed to undermine the "first responder's" testimonies about their observations (RE: the Paine home) on 11/22/1963 [because their statements conflicted with the  story that Ruth Paine was now telling.] This undermining was abetted by the WC in their lines of questioning and their alteration of the Paine home floor plan that is an extant WC exhibit (CE 430).

 

[Chris Newton]

10 hours ago, David Josephs said:

If Ruth was in league with the WCR lawyers, all she needed to say was she saw the rifle in the garage - any part of it.  Even Michael can't come to that conclusion.

I think there's much more to this. There was a concerted effort by all involved to distance themselves from any foreknowledge.

My own suspicions at this time could include potentially embarrassing revelations about who knew what prior to 11/22/63. No one can claim that anything stored in that garage was 'secure'. When James P Hosty allegedly visited Ruth Paine, alone, on Nov. 1st and "shot the breeze" with Ruth while sitting on the couch in the living room., did Ruth mention that all Oswald's stuff was in the garage? Why the hell not? Of course, we have their testimony that they didn't and just because something defies logic doesn't mean it's untrue. 

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

I think there's much more to this. There was a concerted effort by all involved to distance themselves from any foreknowledge.

My own suspicions at this time could include potentially embarrassing revelations about who knew what prior to 11/22/63. No one can claim that anything stored in that garage was 'secure'. When James P Hosty allegedly visited Ruth Paine, alone, on Nov. 1st and "shot the breeze" with Ruth while sitting on the couch in the living room., did Ruth mention that all Oswald's stuff was in the garage? Why the hell not? Of course, we have their testimony that they didn't and just because something defies logic doesn't mean it's untrue. 

My naivety becomes me Chris.  Did not realize Hosty came into the house on 11/1, sat on the couch and shot the breeze with Ruth.  Oh but to be a fly on the wall.  With no Michael or Lee to intervene?  Of course Marina could not understand English at the time, wink, ah, wink.  Did Hosty leave a report on this or testify about it?

Edited July 13, 2017 by Ron Bulman

[Chris Newton]

2 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Did not realize Hosty came into the house on 11/1

Ron -you can find the story in both Hosty's and RP's WC testimony and Hosty's HSCA, as well. Apparently, if you read FBI Agent Bardwell Odem's testimony, Hosty committed a host of FBI violations, (excuse the pun), when he showed up at Ruth's alone.  On Nov. 5th, he brought an agent-in-training over there with him and did not go inside.

 

I think we've successfully hijacked the thread, sorry.

 

For the record, I think the Carcano 91theory unlikely. Highly unlikely. The only detail that gives me pause is the earlier reported discrepancies , (Probe maybe?), found between photos of the serial number on the rifle.