Jack White: "The Roscoe White curse"

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Paul: I think Joe's question was a little more broad.

However, in the LHO - Ruby, narrow scope, I'll suggest Larry Cafar. He served in the Marines, arguably WITH LHO, in Japan.

DeMorhenshildts web, I agree, is perhaps the most dynamic. I'll add something to that web. Michael Paine's "mother was Ruth Forbes Young, financial backer of International Peace Academy and daughter of Elise Cabot Forbes, a scion of the Cabot family." -Wikipedia

 

Michael,

George DeMohrenschildt did not know Jack Ruby.   George was a Russian Expatriate in the oil business in Dallas, and so he knew lots of oil billionaires, as well as Lee Harvey Oswald -- so his story is certainly very colorful.  The same was true of many Russian Expatriates in Dallas, except most of the Russian Expatriates despised LHO intensely.   Only George DeMohrenschildt liked LHO, sort of.  

As for Michael Paine -- it's boring to say that his family was fabulously wealthy and well-connected.  CIA-did-it CTers always try to link great wealth with the CIA and go for the cheap shot.  It's boring.  They usually add that Michael's mother had a childhood friend who later became the lover of Allen Dulles.  As if that proves anything.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

George DeMohrenschildt did not know Jack Ruby.   George was a Russian Expatriate in the oil business in Dallas, and so he knew lots of oil billionaires, as well as Lee Harvey Oswald -- so his story is certainly very colorful.  The same was true of many Russian Expatriates in Dallas, except most of the Russian Expatriates despised LHO intensely.   Only George DeMohrenschildt liked LHO, sort of.  

As for Michael Paine -- it's boring to say that his family was fabulously wealthy and well-connected.  CIA-did-it CTers always try to link great wealth with the CIA and go for the cheap shot.  It's boring.  They usually add that Michael's mother had a childhood friend who later became the lover of Allen Dulles.  As if that proves anything.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Just to clarify the Michael Paine link: Henry Cabot Lodge (and the Dulles Brithers) were major player in the United Fruit Company. JFK was interested in stopping the corporate slavery that was manifest in the Banana Republics. The Nixon-Kennedy debate makes that clear. It's not simply taking cheap shots at the wealthy.

[Joe Bauer]

Paul was right, I was referring to those who knew both Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald personally.

Ron Lewis didn't have much to do with Ruby from what I have read. However, he did have interactions with Guy Bannister.

Chris Newton's list does include people with intriguing connections to others besides Oswald. Much suspicion there as well.

However, Roscoe White's interactions with Ruby & Oswald together makes him a person of much more unique and suspicious intrigue in this story IMO.

Larry Cafar?  Just not informed of this person.

Like Paul I also agree with much of Seth Kantor's assessment of Ruby. I think prostitution was an area that Jack Ruby was much more involved in than has been generally reported.  

Look, strip joints have always been a key part of any prostitution crime setup.

The whole point of strip clubs ( here in the states and world wide ) is more often than not to get their male customers so worked up and probably liquored up to crave this.

Pimps or call girls themselves would often do the rest.

I remember strip joints here in Calif. I went once or twice myself as a young man in my early twenties.

The prostitutes would "line up" right outside the place at closing time! Business was brisk.

Big city prostitution and strip joints were always synonymous here in Calif.

Were Ruby's strip joints in Dallas any different? I doubt it.

Ruby even stated in his Warren Commission testimony that members ( at least one or two? And married to boot! ) of the Dallas PD were having relations with his strippers.

Wasn't J.D. Tippit one of these?

And I'll mention again that one of the most suspiciously illogical actions of the Warren Commission was to tell Seth Kantor that he was mistaken ( and Ruby wasn't ) about Kantor meeting and talking to Jack Ruby at Parkland hospital the afternoon of 11,22,1963.  As Kantor relates...They ( The Commission ) decided to take the word of Ruby over his regarding this incident.

Anyone could see that Seth Kantor was an intelligent, well spoken, well educated, well grounded and mentally together and professionally trained observer career person and Jack Ruby was the opposite.  To take Jack Ruby's word over Seth Kantor's in "any" recollection of "any" event in this story was simply so illogical it was crazy. Suspiciously so.

Here's another question; on the morning of 11,24,1963 when Jack Ruby squeezed his way to the front of the DPD basement press crowd minutes before Lee Harvey Oswald was escorted right to him, wasn't he flanked by a Dallas PD Detective ( big burly guy) who just happened to be very friendly ( and not in playing checkers ) with Ruby for years?

Now, are we to believe that this DPD fellow didn't even see Jack Ruby standing next to him?  Or if he did, feel that maybe this was one time when his hot-headed friend maybe shouldn't be this close to the most important suspect in American crime history?

I believe this Ruby buddy DPD member may have been there "to help" Ruby got into his close to Oswald position. 

And this fellow cop's PD partner ( another buddy of Ruby's ) was also there...standing directly across from Ruby and his partner, and who must have seen Ruby in that first in line , up close position before Oswald came around that corner.

I am a true believer of the proposition that members of the DPD did set up Ruby to take out Oswald, just as Paul relates.

I remember seeing a video tape of DPD Sergeant Patrick Dean being interviewed minutes after Ruby whacked Oswald. I think Dean was head of basement security ( great job there Sergeant) and he said that at first when he heard the gun shot, that he even gave some thought to one of his own force shooting Oswald.

That statement clearly indicated to me ( through Dean ) that the sentiment of many in the DPD was to get Oswald...mainly because they thought he took out one of their own. A guaranteed death sentence without having to worry about a trial where Oswald may have been given a life sentence or even found not guilty.

With Oswald's own security looking for a lynching...he didn't stand a chance.

 

Edited January 14, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Andrej Stancak]

Joe:

I like your interesting posts. However, I am not sure that Ruby was just a "pimp" who was used by the DPD as a patsy to kill Oswald. Ruby's background goes much deeper to the criminal underworld than just  being a manager of two local strip clubs. Peter Dale Scott in his book: Deep politics and the death of JFK" devoted several chapters on Ruby's associations with 1) gun running criminals, 2) narcotics business, 3) Cuban connections. All parts of Ruby's  lead to billionaire business circles (e.g., Hunt's) and mafia and intelligence. I read Seth Kantor's book and could not draw any conclusions about who Ruby was in spite of a number of useful details about Ruby and his movements on the assassination weekend. 

Not being too educated in the assassination case, I can only speculate about what was his role in the plot. One can accept Ruby's actions as presented in Warren Report and end up with an improbable explanation that Ruby ruined his life just because he wanted to save Jacqueline Kennedy from coming to Dallas for a trial. Or, one can look deeper while risking to use information which emerged later and which entails a possibility of not being verifiable.  

Or, one could abstract from details and only focus on the primitive logic of what happened: Oswald was a patsy and needed to be killed as soon as possible after killing the President else he would talk about how he ended up as a patsy. So, Ruby was one of the backup executors of Lee Harvey Oswald, and maybe the very last instance. We can ask what were the earlier execution attempts: 1. TSBD? Was the patsy actually be shot on the sixth floor but he was not there? 2. the Marsalis bus allegedly searched by two police officers. If Oswald had a pistol given to him by Ruby, he would be an explainable target if killed. 3. J.D. Tippit or people killing Tippit. 4. Dallas police in Texas Theatre. As nothing worked, Ruby was called, and the Dallas police colluded. It would be difficult to get Ruby to do this job unless he was somehow (and quite significantly) involved in the plot earlier.

   ... I now see that my post deviates from the thread title, I apologise.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Michael Clark]

Joe Bauer wrote: "Larry Cafar?  Just not informed of this person."

My bad, it is spelled Larry Crafard. The more that I read of him, the more suspicious he seems. He worked in Ruby's Carousel Club until, 11-23-63. -He served close to LHO in Japan although I don't know how closely they were associated. italicized info is incorrect.

His timeline in the 24 hour period is worth looking into. He would normally wake up at 8 AM, at the Carousel to start the day. He states that on 11-22, he woke up late, when an en employee showed up and was blaring news of the assassination. He spent 4-5 hours on a phone call withe a girl who called the club, looking for a job at 11PM. When the call ended, Ruby called and told him to grab a camera, and that Ruby would pick him up. This is where they drive through town, take pictures of the "Impeach Warren"  sign, go to the post office, and a cafe. In the morning, Larry quits his job and hitch hikes to Michigan with 7 dollars in his pocket.

 

edit. Crafard do not serve in Japan with Oswald. I confused him with Roscoe White.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Jeffrey Reilley]

3 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Joe B

• Quote

His timeline in the 24 hour period is worth looking into. He would normally wake up at 8 AM, at the Carousel to start the day. He states that on 11-22, he woke up late, when an en employee showed up and was blaring news of the assassination. He spent 4-5 hours on a phone call withe a coral who called the club, looking for a job at 11PM. When the call ended, Ruby called and told him to grab a camera, and that Ruby would pick him up. This is where they drive through town, take pictures of the "Impeach Warren"  sign, go to the post office, and a cafe. In the morning, Larry quits his job and hitch hikes to Michigan with 7 dollars in his pocket.

 

None of those actions seem logical in the least.

[Michael Clark]

21 minutes ago, Jeffrey Reilley said:

None of those actions seem logical in the least.

It's worth reading the WC testimony to get it all straight. 

A detail I'll add is the girl (not "coral"as I misspelled it) who spent hours on the phone with Crafard, said she was leaving on a bus in the morning, not saying where she was going, after calling about a job. The WC seemed to ask very few questions about all of this, except to ask "did she say what her measurements were?" (Paraphrased). ...... bizarre

The "all-night" phone call is what interests me the most. If it is not true, it looks like a story to provide an explanation as to why the phone was busy for so long that night.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Jeffrey Reilley]

1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:

It's worth reading the WC testimony to get it all straight. 

A detail I'll add is the girl (not "coral"as I misspelled it) who spent hours on the phone with Crafard, said she was leaving on a bus in the morning, not saying where she was going, after calling about a job. The WC seemed to ask very few questions about all of this, except to ask "did she say what her measurements were?" (Paraphrased). ...... bizarre

The "all-night" phone call is what interests me the most. If it is not true, it looks like a story to provide an explanation as to why the phone was busy for so long that night.

Have you ever been on the phone with a stranger for multiple hours? Have you ever had a potential employee talk to you for a couple hours on the phone? That doesn't make sense.

As well, if you were going to quit your job and then hitch it to Michigan the next day, why would you bother with an all night phone call and driving around taking pictures? Definitely intriguing.

[Michael Clark]

To be sure, Larry, says he was flirting with a the girl who called for the job. He wasn't in a position to hire, Jack Ruby would have done that. The hitch-hike adventure gives him several days for which obviously no substantiation could be given. I am surprised that there is not a thread on here for Larry Crafard. If there is one, then I missed it.

[Jeffrey Reilley]

What would you do if you wanted to e&e without raising any suspicion?

Walking right on out of there, although very simple, is a very effective plan. Blend right in with unsuspecting people.

[Michael Clark]

30 minutes ago, Jeffrey Reilley said:

..... 

Edited January 14, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Michael Clark]

Carfard is an interesting subject, but we digress from the topic of this thread.

[Jeffrey Reilley]

15 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Carfard is an interesting subject, but we digress from the topic of this thread.

Good point...Back onward

 

[Paul Trejo]

20 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Paul was right, I was referring to those who knew both Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald personally.

...Roscoe White's interactions with Ruby & Oswald together makes him a person of much more unique and suspicious intrigue in this story IMO.

Like Paul I also agree with much of Seth Kantor's assessment of Ruby. I think prostitution was an area that Jack Ruby was much more involved in than has been generally reported.  

Look, strip joints have always been a key part of any prostitution crime setup.

Ruby even stated in his Warren Commission testimony that members...of the Dallas PD were having relations with his strippers.

Wasn't J.D. Tippit one of these?

And I'll mention again that one of the most suspiciously illogical actions of the Warren Commission was to tell Seth Kantor that he was mistaken ( and Ruby wasn't ) about Kantor meeting and talking to Jack Ruby at Parkland hospital the afternoon of 11,22,1963.  As Kantor relates...They ( The Commission ) decided to take the word of Ruby over his regarding this incident.

Anyone could see that Seth Kantor was an intelligent, well spoken, well educated, well grounded and mentally together and professionally trained observer career person and Jack Ruby was the opposite.  To take Jack Ruby's word over Seth Kantor's in "any" recollection of "any" event in this story was simply so illogical it was crazy. Suspiciously so.

Here's another question; on the morning of 11,24,1963 when Jack Ruby squeezed his way to the front of the DPD basement press crowd minutes before Lee Harvey Oswald was escorted right to him, wasn't he flanked by a Dallas PD Detective ( big burly guy) who just happened to be very friendly ( and not in playing checkers ) with Ruby for years?

Now, are we to believe that this DPD fellow didn't even see Jack Ruby standing next to him?  Or if he did, feel that maybe this was one time when his hot-headed friend maybe shouldn't be this close to the most important suspect in American crime history?

I believe this Ruby buddy DPD member may have been there "to help" Ruby got into his close to Oswald position. 

And this fellow cop's PD partner ( another buddy of Ruby's ) was also there...standing directly across from Ruby and his partner, and who must have seen Ruby in that first in line , up close position before Oswald came around that corner.

I am a true believer of the proposition that members of the DPD did set up Ruby to take out Oswald, just as Paul relates.

Joe,

The proposition that DPD cops set up Jack Ruby belongs to Seth Kantor himself in 1978, in his book, Who Was Jack Ruby?   

To clarify, let me cite the interesting autobiography of Dallas Sheriff Bill Decker, IIRC, who wrote about his cases with criminals in Dallas.   He devoted one chapter to Jack Ruby's two brothels.  They were located in upscale neighborhoods in Dallas -- very nice houses with enormous lots, and lots of trees in the fenced backyard, with a stream running through the backyard, like an urban Garden of Eden.   

The furnishings of these brothels were lavish -- fine furniture with butlers and maids attending.  They were for the rich.  Jack Ruby did not own them, however -- he only managed them for the owners who lived in Chicago, IIRC.

It is impossible, IMHO, that Jack Ruby could get into the DPD basement, right next to Oswald, surrounded by DPD officers, without the assistance of a few of the DPD officers.  Impossible.  Seth Kantor is absolutely correct about it.

Now -- it is also true that the CIA did use the Mafia to try assassinate Fidel Castro, and to run guns for the Cuban resistance -- playing both sides of the Castro movement, to jockey for position in Cuba.   So, Jack Ruby, who worked strictly for the Mafia, was no doubt involved in gun running at one point, and in getting Santos Trafficante out of a Castro jail cell after 1959.  

So, yes, we can trace Jack Ruby in the political arena on behalf of the Mafia -- but that doesn't make Jack Ruby into a political activist -- only a Mafia gopher.  Also, no Mafia family ever tried to assassinate any US President.  It wasn't their game.  They probably paid millions (e.g. Carlos Marcello did) to outsiders who claimed they could do it -- but it was over their heads.  

Jack Ruby was used to bending over backwards for the Dallas Police so that he could stay in business for his rich bosses in crime.  Jack Ruby himself didn't get rich, but he did play the big shot in Dallas.  The DPD rogues who talked Jack Ruby into killing Lee Harvey Oswald most likely told Jack that he would get off easy, and would probably be a national hero.  Jack just wasn't that bright -- according to Seth Kantor.

The fact that Geneva White once worked for Jack Ruby's Carousel Club, makes the most direct connection between Roscoe White, Jack Ruby and LHO (his fellow Marine) than anybody else.  Ron Lewis claims that Roscoe White was also in New Orleans during the summer of 1963 interacting with LHO and Guy Banister there.   The connection is most interesting.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 15, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Michael Clark]

On January 4, 2005 at 4:29 AM, John Simkin said:

This is a very important subject and probably deserves its own thread. I am therefore posting this message in two places. The reason being is these threats might well provide clues about the assassination and the cover-up.

 

Does anyone know where this other thread is?