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Tim Gratz

The Death of Marilyn Monroe

117 posts in this topic

As to the various tales of Marilyn's time at the Cal-Neva, interested persons might like to peruse 'My Life with Mr S' by Sinatra's former valet, George Jacobs (an entertaining book in its own right) which gives a new perspective and which has a lot of Marilyn content; also 'Sinatra: The Untold Story' by Michael Munn.  The latter gives a more detailed account of that weekend and Giancana's role there. 

Munn's book I have to say isn't especially well-written and by his own admission is reliant on statements given to him by a drunken Lawford; Ava Gardner and Sammy Davis Jnr, along with ol' blue eyes himself are among others who talk about the Marilyn matter.  It appears to be an honest recollection of what they said to the author when he was a young shaver, and does indeed fill in a few gaps, but should be interpreted with caution.

Linda,

Out of curiosity, have you visited the Cal-Neva Lodge at North Shore Tahoe?

David Healy

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David

Sorry for delay in replying. I thought I had my settings to notify me when the topic was activated, but obviously haven't.

No, alas, I haven't been there and it's unlikely I'll have the opportunity. Do you know it well?

Linda

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Linda (or anyone)

There was a very interesting article in the paper on 8/5 by Robert Welkos for the LA Times.

Former LA Dist. Atty. Miner questins the official version of MM's death.

And no where in this article is any Kennedy blamed for either her death or even her alleged "suicide".

Apparently Miner was able to read interviews MM did with her Dr. just prior to her demise and she was very upbeat, not at all in a suicidal mode.

Also not a word is even mentined of any relationship with any Kennedy in this rather lengthy article.

Did you see this story?

Comments?

Dawn

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David

Sorry for delay in replying.  I thought I had my settings to notify me when the topic was activated, but obviously haven't.

No, alas, I haven't been there and it's unlikely I'll have the opportunity.  Do you know it well?

Linda

Actually, yes! First time there was in '58, as a kid. Have lunch-dinner there now on a bi-monthly basis - place still looks as it did in the 60's. Undergoing renovation here and there, but basically, its the same old place. Sinatra still held in high esteem. The showroom is small and quaint, just the way they liked it back then - hall leading to the showroom, on both sides, many photos of Frank, Marilyn, other talent that appeared there and of course, the rest of the 'Pack', Dean, Lawford, Sammy....

Change in ownership may be on the horrizon, if not already...

I think the place has a website these day's, I may be wrong about that....

Best regard's,

David Healy

Edited by David G. Healy

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Dawn

No, I haven't seen the article you refer to. If you know of an on-line link to it I'd be glad to have it.

Miner has occasionally put his head above the parapet to question the cause of Marilyn's death and over the last few years has made several mentions of the tapes. During the early 90's he gave a documentary interview in which he said that from Marilyn's tapes 'it could be inferred' that she'd had an affair with JFK, but that 'she was specific' about her affair with RFK. In later interviews he seems to have focused on her relationship with Dr Greenson and has either not mentioned the Kennedys or any comments have been edited out.

I would add on a wider note re MM/RFK's alleged affair, that, having spent some considerable time comparing dates/times/places for them both, along with the various accounts of people who agree with or deny that they had an affair, I've concluded that any affair they did have was both extremely intense and very short-lived - no more than five weeks and possibly as short as three. Their friendship prior to that period had been growing for around 4 months and - it's claimed - became a kind of telephone courtship.

The apparent brevity of any affair they had may account for the small number of people who claim to know about it.

Linda

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David

Thanks for the Cal-Neva feedback. Lucky you, going there so often - would love to see it for myself.

Have you ever seen the guest bungalows? I believe that MM used to stay in number 52.

Thanks

Linda

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Dawn

No, I haven't seen the article you refer to. If you know of an on-line link to it I'd be glad to have it.

Miner has occasionally put his head above the parapet to question the cause of Marilyn's death and over the last few years has made several mentions of the tapes. During the early 90's he gave a documentary interview in which he said that from Marilyn's tapes 'it could be inferred' that she'd had an affair with JFK, but that 'she was specific' about her affair with RFK. In later interviews he seems to have focused on her relationship with Dr Greenson and has either not mentioned the Kennedys or any comments have been edited out.

I would add on a wider note re MM/RFK's alleged affair, that, having spent some considerable time comparing dates/times/places for them both, along with the various accounts of people who agree with or deny that they had an affair, I've concluded that any affair they did have was both extremely intense and very short-lived - no more than five weeks and possibly as short as three. Their friendship prior to that period had been growing for around 4 months and - it's claimed - became a kind of telephone courtship.

The apparent brevity of any affair they had may account for the small number of people who claim to know about it.

Linda

_______________________

Linda,

Not sure where you are. The article was reprinted in my local pater (Austin American Statesman) from the LA Times, by Robert W. Welkos called "Mystry shrouds Monroe's death". (8/5).

There was a documentary in 1991 by Henry Schipper on Marilyn called I think "Something's got to GIve". It was aired once, perhaps twice by Fox and is now impossible to obtain. (I have tried very hard.)

From what I remember of reading about this doc., Schipper found a lot of boxes of information never before given to the press. Did you by chance ever see this documentary? Also I remember that a review (I don't think on "google" any longer) said that Schipper's findings were insconsistant with any notion of suicide. Similar to the LA Times article. And consistant with what Miner says of the tapes.

Not a hint that she was about to"expose" something re the Kennedy's "leading to her demise" "by the Kennedy's" as the disinformation books have so strongly stated.

Have you read the excellent piece by JimDEugenio (it's online I am pretty sure) called "The Posthumous Assassination of John F. Kennedy"?) I re-read it yesterday in the author's book "The Assassination's", while doing some research on MM and the Kennedy brothers' " alleged " relationships.

Dawn

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Hi Dawn

I'm in the UK, so can only access US newspapers online.

I do have the 'Something's Got to Give' you refer to, but it may be an edited version since there's no mention of Schipper's finding information in the way you describe. I obtained the video via Amazon.com about a year back.

The question of whether she was about to expose the Kennedys is a difficult one and without authenticated documentary or recorded evidence will never satisfactorily be proved. I do recall that during the 1980's – possibly around 1983/4 – a programme was broadcast here which played an extract from a tape made at Peter Lawford's beach house which had recorded a playful conversation between MM and JFK. This was in the days long before my interest in the subject, so at the time it was only a tit-bit which I remember we all discussed at the office the next day. (If anyone out there remembers the documentary please let me know). The point of mentioning this however is that clearly there was at least some basis in truth to the claim that MM and JFK were being surveilled.

If Marilyn did make tapes for Greenson then one question to be considered is when did she start and finish making the tapes. As far as I've been able to determine she most likely began making tapes in early May of 1962. I've read that she made only two for Greenson and some who knew her and knew about the tapes said that she would often tell the Doctor what she though he wanted to hear, that she would create fantasies. It's also said that she made some use of taping for her own purposes – you're probably familiar with Mickey Song's story that he found out (from RFK) after MM's death that she'd secretly taped a conversation with him.

If she made no mention - on tape - of exposing the Kennedys, then she may have stopped making tapes for Greenson before any such decision was made. My own research suggests that her resolve to expose them was made only in the last few days before she died.

You're probably also aware it's alleged that on the day after her death, before the house was closed off, men who were thought to be 'agents' were busy burning notes and documents in MM's fireplace. There was said to be a pile of tapes at the fireside, though no definite mention is made of them being burned. If RFK heard Mickey Song's recorded conversation with MM, then clearly at least that tape survived.

I feel it's worth mentioning also, in respect of Mickey Song and others who claim knowledge of Marilyn, that there are often inconsistencies in their stories – or at least inconsistencies in how their stories are conveyed by researchers – which doesn't help to establish credibility or to clear the muddy waters.

I've read the DiEugenio piece you referred to, which I found on the internet. If I've understood correctly the date when it was written, I would say that things have moved on a bit since 1997 – though there may be an updated version I've not found. DiEugenio is correct to question the salacious stories which have emerged about Kennedy since his murder and serious Kennedy researchers should do likewise. It seems to me though, that any author or researcher will either start from a certain perspective and be more inclined to believe evidence which supports their view, or will at some point be drawn toward a view and dismiss whatever doesn't support it. The Kennedys and Monroe are not issues on which one can comfortably sit on the fence and after much comparison of sources I've concluded that almost all authors will demonstrate their theories only by excluding evidence which runs counter to it.

To return briefly to DiEugenio's piece, in respect of his comments on Judy Exner, I'd again refer interested persons to George Jacob's 'My Life with Mr S' in which he sheds some light on Judy and her relationships with JFK and Giancana.

I'll close for now as long postings are always difficult to read. Finally though, you mention that you're doing research on MM/Kennedy brothers. Is it for a book/project, or just as an interesting subject?

Regds

Linda

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In chapters 8 and 9 of "The Kennedys: The Conspiracy to Destroy a Dynasty" you argue that Marilyn Monroe was murdered in an attempt to bring down John F. Kennedy. You claim on page 59 “The Kennedys were not responsible for Marilyn’s death, even though there are indications they ‘paid off’ a number of people for silence relating to their proximity. The Kennedys would not have wished for her to die, neither would the act of killing her have fitted their political or personal profiles. Far from it: from a realistic viewpoint, the enormous risk involved in killing anyone – or having anyone killed – would have placed the entire family in lasting jeopardy.”

I agree with you but isn’t it true that very few people knew that JFK was having a relationship with Monroe at the time. I believe the only reference to her involvement with JFK during her lifetime appeared in the New York Journel American on 3rd August, 1962: “Marilyn Monroe's health must be improving. She's been attending select Hollywood parties and has become the talk of the town again. In California, they're circulating a photograph of her that certainly isn't as bare as he famous calendar, but is very interesting... And she's cooking in the sex-appeal department, too; she's proved vastly alluring to a handsome gentleman who is a bigger name than Joe DiMaggio in his heyday. So don't write off Marilyn as finished.”

Interestingly, the piece was written by Dorothy Kilgallen, who was later to die in similar circumstances to Monroe on 8th November, 1965.

Another interesting connection between Kilgallen, Kennedy and Monroe is this supposedly classified document that appeared on the internet a few years ago:

Wiretap of telephone conversation between reporter Dorothy Kilgallen and her close friend, Howard Rothberg; from wiretap of telephone conversation of Marilyn Monroe and Attorney General Robert Kennedy. Appraisal of Content: (Blacked Out).

1. Rothberg discussed the apparent comeback of subject with Kilgallen and the break up with the Kennedys. Rothberg told Kilgallen that she was attending Hollywood parties hosted by the "inner circle" among Hollywood's elite and was becoming the talk of the town again. Rothberg indicated in so many words, that she had secrets to tell, no doubt arising from her trists (sic) with the President and the Attorney General. One such (illegible) mentions the visit by the President at a secret air base for the purpose of inspecting things from outer space. Kilgallen replied that she knew what might be the source of the visit. In the mid-fifties Kilgallen learned of secret effort by US and UK governments to identify the origins of crashed spacecraft and dead bodies, from a British government official. Kilgallen believed the story may have come from the (illegible) in the late forties. Kilgallen said that if the story is true, it could cause terrible embarrassment to Jack and his plans to have NASA put men on the moon.

2. Subject repeatedly called the Attorney General and complained about the way she was being ignored by the President and his brother.

3. Subject threatened to hold a press conference and would tell all.

4. Subject made references to "bases" in Cuba and knew of the President's plan to kill Castro.

5. Subject made reference to her "diary of secrets" and what the newspapers would do with such disclosures.

This document is a forgery but it might have been part of the plan to implicate JFK and RFK in the death of Monroe.

Who do you think was responsible for Monroe’s death?

Frankly, I think his liaison was very well known among journalists and I think he was astute enough to recognise the perils in such a situation. Editors would not publish 'tittle tattle' about the President in those days; very different from today.This did not prevent journalists knowing what was happening, however. Had Robert Kennedy been placed under investigation in connexion with Marilyn's deat, his career would have been finished instantly. It would have mattered not that he would have been cleared; the mere fact that America's top lawman was questioned about it would have produced immediate calls for his resignation. In these circumstances, JFK would, undoubtedly have also resigned without waiting for the press to make known his sordid involvement with Marilyn.

It is my belief, however, that Robert Kennedy WAS interviewed in connexion to Marilyn's death. (After all, he was in her house twice the day she died). He was, I'm convinced, interviewed privately by his good friend Chief Parker, who, I strongly suspect, knew what it was all about, anyway. (He was a well informed chief of police). It is unlikely Parker, a man of known integrity, would jeopardize his career and future protecting a man he had any doubts about, a Kennedy or not.

The knock-on situation created was that if her superficial 'suicide' had been turned into a murder investigation he would not have been able to protect Kennedy. Chances are he found out who killed Marilyn but his hands were tied. This, I daresay, is what still lingers behind the reluctance of LA DAs to reopen the case while there is anyone alive who could blow the gaffe.

Those who, we know, had an agenda to get rid of John and Robert Kennedy from politics were the Bay of Pig CIA agent-survivors. The hated their guts. At first they were not seeking to kill the brothers, but to get them out of the White House (and no doubt, as they thought, replaced by Nixon. When the plan failed by the intervention of Chief Parker, and their exploits came to the notice (through channels) of certain members of the establishment, there was immediate interest among some of their number. They saw their aims in getting rid of the Kennedys through bloodshed, and I believe that Edward Kennedy, a fast rising politician bound to be sought to follow in his brothers' footsteps, was added to the agents' list.

By the time it got round to Edward, the need became urgent and alternative means of keeping him out the the White House had to be found. Another Kennedy murder would have exposed the plot to the world and endangered all involved. They were just as successful, though.

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Frankly, I think his liaison was very well known among journalists.

Is there any evidence to support this assertion?

It is my belief, however, that Robert Kennedy WAS interviewed in connexion to Marilyn's death. (After all, he was in her house twice the day she died).

You are of course entitled to believe anything you choose to believe, no matter how ridiculous and unsupported your beliefs might be.

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Is it possible..Just possible, That Marilyn was a troubled, self medicating,

woman who made that classic mistake, she overestimated how much

junk her system could take? My work brings me into daily contact with

people who abuse drugs ,alcohol ect, the reasons for this abuse are legion.

But they all share one characteristic, they overestimate there bodies

capacity to handle their drug of choise.

Marilyn's pre-morbid behavior shows,IMHO, a large capacity for self

destructive behavior, which I belive ultimately caused her death.

Just a thought....Steve.

In the case of Marilyn Monroe:

* The toxicology report showed high levels of Nembutal (38-66 capsules) and Chloral Hydrate (14-23 tablets) in Monroe's blood.

* Police noted that the bedside table had numerous pill bottles but the room contained no glass to wash down the pills and the water was turned off. (no, that's not suspicious!)

* The pathologist Dr. Thomas Noguchi could find no trace of capsules, powder or the typical discoloration caused by Nembutal in Monroe's stomach or intestines, indicating the drugs that killed her had not been swallowed.

* Monroe was found lying face down but lividity on her back and the posterior of her arms and legs indicated she had died lying on her back.

* Eunice Murray, Monroe's housekeeper, claimed that she couldn't open Monroe's bedroom door the night she died because it was locked, but she also had a spare key. (so why did she not use it?) Police noted that Murray appeared quite evasive and extremely vague and she would eventually change her story several times.

It's clearly obvious that the death scene was faked, and Monroe did not swallow all of those pills.

David, I will have to pull the book to add more. But basically Rivera was fired from ABC for vigorously protesting cuts the management had made to the piece he had worked on for 20/20 regarding the death of Marilyn Monroe.

Edited by Peter McGuire

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I haven't read this whole thread entirely. There is a kindle book on Amazon called the DD Group. Don't know what the name

means. It's about MM's death. It was accidental. Dr. Engleberg wouldn't come over to see her because he was in the

middle of a divorce. The psychiatrist went over to Engleberg and picked up liquid Nembutal. When Greenson, the psych dr, brought it to Marilyn's house, he asked Eunice Murray to give Marilyn an enema which would help her relax. No one knew

she had chloral hydrate in her system. Where did she get it? Probably in Mexico. Eunice was told to use a certain amount (cc's) of the liquid in an enema. The doctor left. What really killed MM was that Eunice gave her the whole thing and MM died. Pat Newcomb, arriving at the house and finding out what happened said, "That woman (Eunice Murray) should be hung up by her thumbs."

So for me the mystery is solved. But I believe, like the author, that had she not known the Kennedys or Lawfords, she could have lived. They did not have her best interests in heart.

Kathy C

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