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James Richards

A question for Stephen Roy

46 posts in this topic

Hello Stephen.

Not to disrupt the thread...however, curious -

Does any of your research on Ferrie have any info regarding his whereabouts and activities in '62 - '63 - I came across a reference somewhere to some of his flight plans having been made available at NARA, but no such luck when I search for the reference.

This article by Lisa Pease is very interesting. 

http://www.webcom.com/~lpease/collections/...eeport-cuba.htm

- lee

I have quite a bit of info on Ferrie in that period. I have the flight plan, but I am very cautious about it for a number of reasons.

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I unerstand the above analyses of the picture. Nevertheless, I believe it is a legit picture.

The hi=res scan, blown up, shows no inconsistencies to my trained eye. But JPGs always seem to show suspicious looking anomalies.

Oswald WAS in that CAP squadron at that time, at the same time as Ferrie, established by other contemporaneous evidence.

The guy who owned the piture - and is seen in it - is certain that it is not altered in any way. As is another person seen in the picture.

Since Oswald was in the same unit as Ferrie at the same time, and this can be easily proven, what reason would there be to fake the photo?

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Before we get too far afield on this photo...

There is documentary evidence that Ferrie was guest trainer with the Moisant unit from June to September 1955. Oswald joined that unit on July 27, 1955, cadet serial 084965. Several people, some who testified before HSCA and several I have talked to, recall Ferrie and Oswald in that unit at that time.

The cadet commander who kept the rolls still has a partial list of those on that SARCAP exercise, dated Sunday August 7, 1955. Oswald is listed as present.

I also have a hi-res TIFF scan of the original picture. When blown up, there is much more detail than in a JPG or scan from print. None of the anomalies seem present in the TIFF scan.

For these and other reasons, I am inclined to believe that this is a legit photo. Just my opinion, not looking to start a debate.

Sure. A TIFF is a big upload. Can the board support that big an upload?

Stephen:

Any chance of you scanning your TIFF from the original and posting for us to have a look...if possible..

Also, though we know he was in the cadets does not mean there hasn't been hanky panky with this photo.

Thanks B....

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1. If the photo is not genuine, it is important only because somebody faked it.

I can think of 20 more important JFK photo discoveries in the last twenty years.

2. It is not provable that it shows Ferrie or one of the two Oswalds.

3. The mainstream media is an acceptable judge of JFK evidence????? Since when?

4. I have NOT indicated who may have faked the photo or why.

5. I can think of several reasons "someone" may have faked it. For instance (not

necessarily applicable here), a photographer faked photos of OJ Simpson wearing

Bruno Magli shoes TO SELL FOR BIG MONEY TO A TABLOID NEWSPAPER.

There is NO KNOWN PROVENANCE FOR THE LHO PICNIC PHOTO!

I hate to disagree, but this is probably a legit photo. I don't see any unexplained anomalies, the history of the photo seems legit, those IN the photo say it's genuine, and there is no reason to fake a photo which shows something easily demonstrated by other evidence.

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Gus Russo a credible source???

Many researchers who know Gus consider him in the same

category as Gerald Posner...a tool of the CIA.

The CIA is very good at fabricating/altering photos and other

documents. Did Gus get the picture from the CIA?

Russo got the photo from John Ciravolo, shown in the photo, who served in the Moisant squadron at the same time as Ferrie and Oswald.

It was not a "picnic", is was a SARCAP: Search and Rescue/CAP exercise.

Are you

aware of Russo's famous quote, I think in Steamshovel

Press..."AT THE CIA, THEY CALL ME GUS."?

Why would the CIA want to show a Ferrie/Oswald connection?

I do not know. But certain quarters were eager to show a

Ferrie connection to the Mafia.

I don't know if it has any bearing on the assassination at all, but MANY of the people I have spoken to who knew Ferrie have detailed accounts of his relationship with the Marcellos from 1962-67. It may be that some exaggerate it to advance an agenda, but that does not mean that Ferrie didn't have a close relationship with them.

Jack :)

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I have quite a bit of info on Ferrie in that period. I have the flight plan, but I am very cautious about it for a number of reasons.

Thanks Stephen.

Would it be okay to tell me if it has him flying here and there all over the US, including Michigan, Utah, California, Texas and a few other US States, including even Canada?

- lee

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I have quite a bit of info on Ferrie in that period. I have the flight plan, but I am very cautious about it for a number of reasons.

Thanks Stephen.

Would it be okay to tell me if it has him flying here and there all over the US, including Michigan, Utah, California, Texas and a few other US States, including even Canada?

- lee

Lee:

Let me dig out the flight plan. It is for a single date, April 23, 1963, as I recall, and it lists him flying Lambert, Diaz, Hidell. I am leery of the apparent source, a questionable witness from the Garrison days, and the fact that some sections are torn off the document.

In general, Ferrie did not leave a record of a lot of flying in that period. His Stinson 150 was, according to him and others, out of commission. His Taylorcraft L-2 was disassembled. But of course, a pilot can easliy rent or borrow planes. It is just that I do not have any solid indication of heavy flying in that period. But let me find the flight plan.

Peter Whitmey has done an anlysis of the phone records of Ferrie's employer and raises the possibility that Ferrie may have been in various locations at that time. It is online, but I don't have the address. A Google of Peter Whitmey may point to it.

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Stephen, I'm glad you spoke up. If we were to disregard every photo somebody has doubts about, we'd have nothing to look at.

This isn't really my area, but since you seem to be the expert on this photo and the CAP, I thought I'd ask you about something that arouses my curiousity. Was Barry Seal in the CAP at the time of the photo? Is he in the picture? Or were his links to Ferrie and Oswald just some writer's fantasy?

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Here is the flight plan. I misremembered the date: it is dated 4-8-63. Note that there are two sections missing.

I'm new at posting attachments. I hope this works.

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Stephen, I'm glad you spoke up.  If we were to disregard every photo somebody has doubts about, we'd have nothing to look at. 

Pat: I agree. I am very leery of this business of doubting EVERYTHING. In this case, the "backstory" of the photo seems genuine, and it raises the question of why it would be necessary to forge.

This isn't really my area, but since you seem to be the expert on this photo and the CAP, I thought I'd ask you about something that arouses my curiousity.  Was Barry Seal in the CAP at the time of the photo? Is he in the picture?  Or were his links to Ferrie and Oswald just some writer's fantasy?

Not an expert, by any means! While I credit Hopsicker for an interesting thesis, I have a few doubts about it. First, he has Oswald on a CAP encampment (with Seal) on July 23, 1955, 4 days before Oswald even joined the CAP. While not impossible, it seems unlikely. And I know a guy who has the attendance log for that encampment, and Oswald is not listed. Second, I have been told by two sources Hopsicker quotes that they have been misquoted. One is a former FBI SA who is very pissed about it. And I have found a few other assertions in the book that are just flat-out wrong. I'm not dismissing the whole thing, I just don't accept anything in the book unless I have another source.

As for the Aug55 SARCAP, no, Seal was not there (nor is he listed on the exisiting partial roster (M-Z). And those who were there say it was a Moisant affair, with a couple of people from Lakefront attending.

LOTS more on Ferrie and the CAP (and other matters) in my book, the vast majority never-published. I have an interested publisher, but I'm only about halfway through writing, so it's at least a year off.

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A flight plan is fine. However what I would find interesting, very interesting, would be his pilot's log book. There is quite a difference. There is no doubt that he had pilot logs, but has anyone seen one? Are they in the national archives? I have never heard mention of them. If they were legitimate, they could be vey telling. If they are not available, they must have been stolen. If stolen, why and by whom? They absolutely had to have existed!

CharlieB

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A flight plan is fine. However what I would find interesting, very interesting, would be his pilot's log book. There is quite a difference. There is no doubt that he had pilot logs, but has anyone seen one? Are they in the national archives? I have never heard mention of them. If they were legitimate, they could be vey telling. If they are not available, they must have been stolen. If stolen, why and by whom? They absolutely had to have existed!

CharlieB

Thanks Stephen!

I was going to ask a question similar to the one Charles raises above. Wasn't it mandatory to register a flight plan in the 1960s? Wouldn't there had have to have been more records than this single flight plan? Just thinking aloud here. Would these records have been seized and sealed or destroyed I wonder?

Thanks for posting that document. The passenger list is very interesting. I wonder if 'Hidell' was Nagell, Oswald or someone else? Armstrong [H&L] has 'Lambert' as an alias used by Clay Shaw -- He has the date if the flight plan listed as April 6th? Armstrong goes on to give some other details concerning the events of the 6th [men fleeing from Walker's house, April 6th was Lee's last day working for Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall]. For April 8th Armstrong has Ruth Paine visiting Marina at the Neeley St apartment, and Lee is not there - however, according to 'TEC' records, Lee visited their Dallas offices that day.

Looking forward to your book. I'd very much like to know what Ferrie was up to during the months preceding the assassination - and where he was the morning of 11/22/63. If it was a flying from Yale airport in Michigan, to Dallas, Texas, that would be interesting.

- lee

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A flight plan is fine. However what I would find interesting, very interesting, would be his pilot's log book. There is quite a difference. There is no doubt that he had pilot logs, but has anyone seen one? Are they in the national archives? I have never heard mention of them. If they were legitimate, they could be vey telling. If they are not available, they must have been stolen. If stolen, why and by whom? They absolutely had to have existed!

CharlieB

The only log I have found is the 1961 log for Ferrie's Stinson Voyager 150. I presume there were logs for prior years, but they have never surfaced.

This is a long story, but as many know, Ferrie was active with the anti-Castro FRD in New Orleans Nov 1960-August 1961. In that latter month, he was arrested on morals charges, which led to a long series of legal proceedings and, by Ferrie's account, an attempt by authorities to shake him down for money. As one aspect of that, he said that he went to Lakefront Airport on October 22, 1961 and found his Stinson sabotaged. He and others say the plane was never flyable after that. His log book seems to support it. The plane was eventually hauled to a friend's service station and disassembled.

But of course, Ferrie may well have rented or borrowed another plane, but there is no available log book, to my knowledge.

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Thanks Stephen!

I was going to ask a question similar to the one Charles raises above. Wasn't it mandatory to register a flight plan in the 1960s? Wouldn't there had have to have been more records than this single flight plan? Just thinking aloud here. Would these records have been seized and sealed or destroyed I wonder?

I believe flight plans were only required for certain flights. In Ferrie's case, it was not uncommon to make flights without following all the legal requirements. he got in trouble for this several times.

Thanks for posting that document. The passenger list is very interesting. I wonder if 'Hidell' was Nagell, Oswald or someone else? Armstrong [H&L] has 'Lambert' as an alias used by Clay Shaw -- He has the date if the flight plan listed as April 6th? Armstrong goes on to give some other details concerning the events of the 6th [men fleeing from Walker's house, April 6th was Lee's last day working for Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall]. For April 8th Armstrong has Ruth Paine visiting Marina at the Neeley St apartment, and Lee is not there - however, according to 'TEC' records, Lee visited their Dallas offices that day.

The whole thing hinges on whether or not this is a legit flight plan.

Looking forward to your book. I'd very much like to know what Ferrie was up to during the months preceding the assassination

Many things. Working for Gill on the Marcello case. Fighting Eastern Air Lines over his dismissal. And of course, there are several other accounts of contacts with Oswald. None are really great sources, but one has to consider it.

- and where he was the morning of 11/22/63. If it was a flying from Yale airport in Michigan, to Dallas, Texas, that would be interesting.

The evidence is pretty strong that he was in Federal Court in NO on the Marcello case. As for the rest of the day, I have spoken to several who spent parts of the day with him.

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A couple of observations on the questions about Ferrie.

First off althought he flight plan cannot be substantiated in any pure sense there

are several elements that seem to corroborate it including a very interesting incident in Texas which fits with these dates and strongly suggests that Ferrie may have been doing some shuttling around Texas and possibly on into Cuba. Everything I could find of that nature is in Someone Would Have Talked.

Second, I have sources that indicate that although Ferrie was with Marcello in the courtroom on Nov. 22, he did not wait for the verdict but left before hand....shortly after the word came from Dallas. This seems suggests to me that he very likely did not have a planned role in the attack but rather than he certainly did know Oswald and was aware of a number of previous contacts and activities that would quickly make him a suspect...or at least a "person of interest" as we call it today.

Have you heard anything similar about Nov 22 Stephen?

-- Larry

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