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General Walker : a 'pauper'?


John Dolva

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Jim:

Your work in connecting the 'dots' of Hurt, signals intelligence, McCloy and Walker is fascinating. All of these powerful military folks surrounding the orbit of Oswald is compelling. The one individual that doesn't fit (for me) is Maxwell Taylor... wasn't he a close friend of the Kennedy family (a pallbearer at RFK's funeral) and a trusted member of JFK's staff? Its difficult to believe that he'd be a part of this intrigue...leading to the assassination. Also, I have always been confused by the legend of the Walker shooting, and its meaning with respect to Dealey Plaza. Could you share your thoughts on what that event meant, and why it occurred? I do agree that Walker was not the simple JBS right-wing nut that he's portrayed to be... and both his motives and actions with regard to seeing JFK out of office are highly suspect. I am also convinced that McCloy is one of the high level sponsors/conspirators that we all strive to identify so as to understand the big questions about the murder of John Kennedy.

Gene

Gene

Thank you for the kind words.

It is obvious that you have taken the time to read at least a few of my many threads of research, once again I appreciate that.

The Taylor connection is an integral part of this story.....if you examine the controversy surrounding the Limited Test Ban Treaty of 1963 you will see the common thread that ties McCloy and Taylor to a break with Kennedy. Although the Kennedy brothers were quick to recognize that without Taylor that Treaty would never have gotten through Congress the meetings behind closed doors show a different feeling on the part of Taylor about the effects of that Treaty on the security of the United States. Remember also that the failure of the Paris Summit (because of the U-2 incident) led to the failure of the Limited Test Ban Treaty of 1960.....an event that John J. McCloy hoped would occur as it did in fact occur.

I believe I have done several posts that connect Taylor and McCloy throughout their careers as well as several posts that show the close relationship between Walker and Taylor.....It is this connection (Taylor/Walker) that seems to have been lost to History. The historical lapse in Walker's military career is, I believe, the result of an intelligence mission gone bad........Oswald's unexpected return to the United States from the Soviet Union.

I will stand by the fact that the timming of Walker's fall from grace correlates directly to Oswald initial letter requesting that he be allowed to return to the United States (a letter that the Warren Commission speculates was never written). Granted, in my story, two letters are very important for it to piece together in a cohesive manner....the Hosty note that we know was written (Hosty's own testemony to the Warren Commission) and is missing and the first Oswald note that Oswald refers to in his second note.....which the Warren Commission suggests was never written. I will suggest that the irrregularities in Oswald's 201 File leaves room for a rational person to speculate that (if my story is close to the truth) Oswald initial letter suggesting his desire to return to the United States created a shockwave within a very closely knit group within the intelligence community that was privy to the Oswald mission to the Soviet Union. If true....the trail of access to that note would lead to those that had been in charge of any operation that would have involved Oswald (and may have led to the downing of the U-2 Spy Plane over the Soviet Union).....and any link to Oswald would show that the assassination of JFK was not the act of a "lone nut" operating in a void!

If my story holds water the two notes....Hosty's third and Oswald's first would have to disappear....we know for sure that Hosty's has.

It is not too difficult, for me at least, to believe that Oswald's first may have suffered the same fate as Hosty's third.

Jim Root

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If he had killed Walker he would have been lynched, not shot by a deranged lone guy. Here I think the writings during his trip to the USofA are relevant. He essentially saw the minute-men as the closest to his own philosophy at that time. What he advocated was creating a trigger for a showdown.

Walker had since resigning was no longer bound to following orders as he did in the fifties-forties (re army / school intergration), then defended by arch segregationist Thurmonds senate enquiry into 'muzzling the military' and leading the armed insurrection against the Federal Government in Oxford MI Oct '62 set about to create the atmosphere in Dallas in which Kennedy was shot.

Him, having been shot at as a leading opponent of the Kennedy presidency and then partaking in the preparations for the assault on Stevenson a month or so prior to Kennedy entering 'nut country', hanging his flag upside down, making sure the pilots on the plane taking him to Shrevesport, to meet other leading Segregationists, signed his ticket stub, setting in motion the Oswald shot Walker story through the German right wing paper made him an ideal middle man between far right militant groupings (like the KKK which were enjoying a popularity surge in response to JFK's no nonsense anti-segregation drive), and the Louisiana sovereignty comission whose aim was to defeat Kennedy's '63 civil rights bill at any cost.

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If he had killed Walker he would have been lynched, not shot by a deranged lone guy. Here I think the writings during his trip to the USofA are relevant. He essentially saw the minute-men as the closest to his own philosophy at that time. What he advocated was creating a trigger for a showdown.

Walker had since resigning was no longer bound to following orders as he did in the fifties-forties (re army / school intergration), then defended by arch segregationist Thurmonds senate enquiry into 'muzzling the military' and leading the armed insurrection against the Federal Government in Oxford MI Oct '62 set about to create the atmosphere in Dallas in which Kennedy was shot.

Him, having been shot at as a leading opponent of the Kennedy presidency and then partaking in the preparations for the assault on Stevenson a month or so prior to Kennedy entering 'nut country', hanging his flag upside down, making sure the pilots on the plane taking him to Shrevesport, to meet other leading Segregationists, signed his ticket stub, setting in motion the Oswald shot Walker story through the German right wing paper made him an ideal middle man between far right militant groupings (like the KKK which were enjoying a popularity surge in response to JFK's no nonsense anti-segregation drive), and the Louisiana sovereignty comission whose aim was to defeat Kennedy's '63 civil rights bill at any cost.

While, there are other more appropriate places to place this factoid, I wanted to point it out to John and Jim because I knew I wouldn't get a yawn, like I do at other times here on the Forum....

We all know that items like codebreaking, ONI et cetera, are part of the deeper end of the research

efforts these days...Keeping that in mind.....

Ray S. Cline, former Deputy Director for Intelligence of the CIA, began his intelligence career

in 1942 by working in U.S. Navy codebreaking and then joining the O.S.S.

Later he joined the C.I.A. in which he served as chief of station in Taiwan and Germany, and

as Deputy Director for Intelligence during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

From 1969 to 1973, he was the Director of the Bureau of Intelligence and Research in the

Department of State.

Dr. Cline is founder and president of the National Intelligence Study Center in Washington, D.C.

He is also senior advisor to the Center for Strategic and International Studies at Georgetown

University and professor of international relations at Georgetown’s International School of

Foreign Service.

Dr. Cline earned B.A., M.A., and Ph.d degrees in history at Harvard University and was a Henry

Prize Fellow at Oxford University’s Balliol College. He has written or co-written 10 books on

intelligence and strategic studies, including Washington Command Post, a reference work on

military planning in World War II, and The CIA under Reagan, Bush and Casey, which describes

the American intelligence system since that war.

Taken from inset of the book The Central Intelligence Agency a Photographic History

Published by Foreign Intelligence Press - 1986

Author John Patrick Quirk

Interesting......The next time you have a lot of idle time on your hands see how many persons in the archives of the names associated with the assassination are either former Navy veterans or were in ONI.....

It is a woefully overlooked area, in my opinion....

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John

"Him (Walker), having been shot at as a leading opponent of the Kennedy presidency and then partaking in the preparations for the assault on Stevenson a month or so prior to Kennedy entering 'nut country', hanging his flag upside down, making sure the pilots on the plane taking him to Shrevesport, to meet other leading Segregationists, signed his ticket stub, setting in motion the Oswald shot Walker story through the German right wing paper made him an ideal middle man between far right militant groupings (like the KKK which were enjoying a popularity surge in response to JFK's no nonsense anti-segregation drive), and the Louisiana sovereignty comission whose aim was to defeat Kennedy's '63 civil rights bill at any cost."

What you seem to leave out is Marina Oswald's continued insistance that her husband did in fact shoot at Walker because, "he told her so" and the pictures and letter provided by Marina to the initial FBI investigators......items Marina has never suggested were not honestly provided by her.

So either Marina was a part of and continues to be a part of the framing of her husband Lee or there is more to the story than what might be easily swept under the table.

Personally I believe that Walker's reactions in the 24 hours following the assassination of JFK are easily explained, IF we consider those reactions based upon the fear that he (Walker) might be implicated in the assassination of the President......especially if he (Walker) did in fact recognize Oswald as the person he had helped to enter the Soviet Union as part of a very deep intelligence operation and knowing full well that John J. McCloy had recently sent him a letter that would tie him neatly to the conspirators if in fact McCloy were involved.

It is my belief that Walker may have been the most releaved man in the United States when Oswald was gunned down!

Jim Root

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I was once in contact with a guy who knew Walker when he was younger. I recall he said "The old fruit came on to me." FWIW.

Gary, (using a local idiom to make a serious question (pls take no offence, none intended), (so I guess I'm hoping for a serious answer)), but what does Walker being (if he was) a poof 'have to do with the price of eggs in China'? Around which year was he making these liscentious advances to people?

What I can imagine is that his pubic life hid many things, giving an insight into his character.

(Spartacus bio : "On 23rd June, 1976, Walker was arrested for public lewdness in a public toilet at a Dallas park and accused of fondling an undercover policeman.")

Chuck in a whole lot of other things, like his M.A.D. BUFILES, he comes off as a very conflicted character.

edit : none

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Jim : "It is my belief that Walker may have been the most releaved man in the United States when Oswald was gunned down!"

Jim, I know you mean relieved, we all make typos.

I'd say 'revealed', though relieved would fit too. Doesn't that say something important?. In fact, a character assassination of Walker is so much easier than building one on Oswald, yet it never, even though known at the time, entered the whodunnit Q to the extent that one might expect an objectively driven investigation might have.

("relieve : To cause a lessening or alleviation of: relieved all his symptoms; relieved the tension.")

Walker was off the deep end, psychotic/sociopathic (psych 101...) even, a bit like a psychosexual serial killer, the snuffing of the most hated 'object' brings relief, (for a while).

Add a dollop of rigid militarism, ie : a longtime trained follower (and giver) of orders, then a resignation to resolve THAT conflict... Perfect.

"...he comes off as a very conflicted character" ... much more so than Oswald, and much more dangerous. A cannon so loose it's way off. However already having won court balttles re slander and being 'The Right Stuff', he easily slithers through the cracks, (with a little help from his friends).

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Jim : "It is my belief that Walker may have been the most releaved man in the United States when Oswald was gunned down!"

Jim, I know you mean relieved, we all make typos.

I'd say 'revealed', though relieved would fit too. Doesn't that say something important?. In fact, a character assassination of Walker is so much easier than building one on Oswald, yet it never, even though known at the time, entered the whodunnit Q to the extent that one might expect an objectively driven investigation might have.

("relieve : To cause a lessening or alleviation of: relieved all his symptoms; relieved the tension.")

Walker was off the deep end, psychotic/sociopathic (psych 101...) even, a bit like a psychosexual serial killer, the snuffing of the most hated 'object' brings relief, (for a while).

Add a dollop of rigid militarism, ie : a longtime trained follower (and giver) of orders, then a resignation to resolve THAT conflict... Perfect.

"...he comes off as a very conflicted character" ... much more so than Oswald, and much more dangerous. A cannon so loose it's way off. However already having won court balttles re slander and being 'The Right Stuff', he easily slithers through the cracks, (with a little help from his friends).

- John, Walker was also a man with enormous ego and pride. Considering his state of mind about the Kennedys leading up to Oxford Miss, how do you think he felt about them coming out of Springfield Missouri??

-Bill

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Jim : "It is my belief that Walker may have been the most releaved man in the United States when Oswald was gunned down!"

Jim, I know you mean relieved, we all make typos.

I'd say 'revealed', though relieved would fit too. Doesn't that say something important?. In fact, a character assassination of Walker is so much easier than building one on Oswald, yet it never, even though known at the time, entered the whodunnit Q to the extent that one might expect an objectively driven investigation might have.

("relieve : To cause a lessening or alleviation of: relieved all his symptoms; relieved the tension.")

Walker was off the deep end, psychotic/sociopathic (psych 101...) even, a bit like a psychosexual serial killer, the snuffing of the most hated 'object' brings relief, (for a while).

Add a dollop of rigid militarism, ie : a longtime trained follower (and giver) of orders, then a resignation to resolve THAT conflict... Perfect.

"...he comes off as a very conflicted character" ... much more so than Oswald, and much more dangerous. A cannon so loose it's way off. However already having won court balttles re slander and being 'The Right Stuff', he easily slithers through the cracks, (with a little help from his friends).

Thank you for correcting my spelling errors. I am a math/history guy and my spelling has always been bad.

Q: Whar are the three greatest tools in the history of humankind?

A: Fire, The Wheel and Spellcheck!

lol

Jim Root

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Jim:

You are welcome... and I believe you are onto a very important thread indeed. I am still puzzled by several assertions: (1) why did Oswald shoot at Walker and what was the meaning of that episode; (2) why did John McCloy send that letter to Walker, and in essence 'burn' him; and (3) why would a purported 'friend' of the Kennedy family like Max Taylor allow these machinations/intrigues to persist, or be even remotely invloved in them? I realize these are somewhat 'big' questions, but that's where this thread is leading me and I need to put all of this in some context.

Thanks,

Gene

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I agree.

Jim, while our take on things may differ in parts, I have, as long as you have been presenting your research, remained intrigued. I didn't mean anything belitteling re typos. Hope you didn't take offence. If so please accept my apologies for the diversion. (Looking at my post, there is a simple, and also a deliberate typo. As long as one understands what you mean it's inconsequential IMO.)

I was seeking a comment on choosing to see Walker as other than a decorated war hero, but rather as quite deranged, > and not so as a ploy at all.

Rather his persona makes him highly manipulable, and seeing as the FBI had written him and his lawyer Watts as cranks over the MAD issue, and he was as you say a poster boy for the militant right, (or as some of his vociferous supporters as the next mythical aryan 'Knight on a White Horse', as opposed to Kennedy on Carolines pony (insult by DMH editor at White House luncheon earlier in the year)), I wish to see how that fits in with your overall perspective which I think to some extent glosses over these things as well as the ole Miss confrontation which was so serious that even Kennedy sought to hush it up.

What it did mean was that at the next faceoff, in Alabama, the Governor merely made a symbolic gesture of defiance to Katzenbach and stepped aside. I dont himk Bull had changed his mind at all and I think at around this point the anti Kennedy - pro segregation forces went covert.

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I agree.

Jim, while our take on things may differ in parts, I have, as long as you have been presenting your research, remained intrigued. I didn't mean anything belitteling re typos. Hope you didn't take offence. If so please accept my apologies for the diversion. (Looking at my post, there is a simple, and also a deliberate typo. As long as one understands what you mean it's inconsequential IMO.)

I was seeking a comment on choosing to see Walker as other than a decorated war hero, but rather as quite deranged, > and not so as a ploy at all.

Rather his persona makes him highly manipulable, and seeing as the FBI had written him and his lawyer Watts as cranks over the MAD issue, and he was as you say a poster boy for the militant right, (or as some of his vociferous supporters as the next mythical aryan 'Knight on a White Horse', as opposed to Kennedy on Carolines pony (insult by DMH editor at White House luncheon earlier in the year)), I wish to see how that fits in with your overall perspective which I think to some extent glosses over these things as well as the ole Miss confrontation which was so serious that even Kennedy sought to hush it up.

What it did mean was that at the next faceoff, in Alabama, the Governor merely made a symbolic gesture of defiance to Katzenbach and stepped aside. I dont himk Bull had changed his mind at all and I think at around this point the anti Kennedy - pro segregation forces went covert.

I tend to second John Dolva regarding the above, the big picture to me is that in my estimation the whole German connections, CUSA members, Edwin Walker's contact with National Zeitung, and his trip to Louisiana the week of the assassination and meeting with some of the extreme right factions there, was investigated so poorly by the Warren Commission, throw in the Anton Erdinger incident where ostensibly someone stated that "Kennedy will be in trouble if he goes down South," leaves me believing that a selling point to the persons who did the shooting was that it was arranged before the assassination that no one who was arrested after the assassination would be in trouble for long, the ultimate disgrace is hanging it all on Oswald.

Did you know that when Oswald was interrogated, and yes there are parts of the interrogations that did survive, See

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2

Oswald stated that at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca Cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked here. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and thereafter the police officer left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employee’s lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based on remarks by Bill Shelley, he did not believe that there was going to be any more work that day due to the confusion in the building.

What is really bizarre to me is that we all know the Altgens photo, probably by heart. Did Oswald even get to see the Altgens photo before he died? If he was telling the truth, then that is, in effect, like Oswald's ghost saying, "there's something wrong with this picture."

There was something wrong allright, something terribly wrong.

Another photo, the photo of "Oswald" holding The Militant and The Worker which is the dividing line between those who sensed the conspiracy and those who believe Oswald was guilty as charged. I believe it strains reality to think that there were so many different versions of said photo, one even has a image without a person in it, just the outline of a person, and come away believing all the lies, and mythos of the official version. The photo that was pasted on the cover of Life magazine stands as a testament to a frame-up, unless you just want to believe he was guilty.

Sadly, that is one of the problems in this country, people do believe what they choose to want to believe.

Many do so because they would rather swallow a lie and pretend that "thing's like that don't happen in this country."

They never seem to figure out that once you let a government cross that line, scandalous acts will continue to happen again, and they not only have happened again and again, they have gotten worse and worse.

I dare anyone to say that America has seen an improvement regarding corruption in our own government, over the last four and a half decades.

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Jim:

You are welcome... and I believe you are onto a very important thread indeed. I am still puzzled by several assertions: (1) why did Oswald shoot at Walker and what was the meaning of that episode; (2) why did John McCloy send that letter to Walker, and in essence 'burn' him; and (3) why would a purported 'friend' of the Kennedy family like Max Taylor allow these machinations/intrigues to persist, or be even remotely invloved in them? I realize these are somewhat 'big' questions, but that's where this thread is leading me and I need to put all of this in some context.

Thanks,

Gene

Gene

The questions you ask are not simple. I have spent as many as six hours in one sitting explaining where my research has led so please realize that if I give a simple answer it in reality might require a great deal of background to understand fully.

1). why did Oswald shoot at Walker and what was the meaning of that episode:

Oswald said that he believed that Walker was the head of a very bad organization. I believe that Oswald believed what he said because he had been helped into the Soviet Union perhaps, as I believe is possible, by Walker. Remember Oswald stalked him...went to a public meeting where he spoke, surveyed his home and prepared his wife for the possibility of his arrest. Oswald then spoke at Spring Hill College.....subject....failure of the Paris Summit.....which follows my line of research for many reasons....Did Oswald feel betrayed and used for his roll in the downing of the U-2 and the failure of the Paris Summit????? If so what he said while in custody makes perfect sense.....the reason I'm being arrested is because I went to the Soviet Union.....I’m a patsy. My research suggests that this is all very consistent.....as well as Walker's final interview where he suggests that Oswald was an agent/used by both the Soviets and the US.

2). why did John McCloy send that letter to Walker, and in essence 'burn' him;

The letters are provided in one of my earliest posts on this forum. McCloy’s letter came as a response to Walkers resignation from the West Point Alumni Association. I have located copies in three distinct locations....In the Walker papers in was very near the front of the first box. It was also at the front of another stack of papers that I uncovered that covered Walker's military career. The letters deal with the Slyvannus Thayer Award and speak of Thayer in some interesting contexts. Most important day in the life of Thayers career....November 22 (but that is another story that would take a long time to explain) Within a week or so of those letters being written, Maxwell Taylor gave a speech and used as a topic Sylvanus Thayer and the place of the professional military in a democratic society.....reminding all that their service was to the constitution and not to the temporary persons that occupy positions within the government (ie the president????).

In context these letters and the Taylor speech were all sent/given at the exact time that JFK was changing US policy on disarmament talks....prompting McCloy to step down as lead negotiator and Taylor to fight Kennedy tooth and nail behind closed doors over the issue. Walker may have been doing nothing more than adding to his cover as a right winger....but I remain open on that issue...........

3). why would a purported 'friend' of the Kennedy family like Max Taylor allow these machinations/intrigues to persist, or be even remotely involved in them?

Taylor was very clear in his speech of the time that his (and all professional soldiers in the US) duty was to the Constitution and the protection of the United States.....not to the temporary political leaders....

As a military man, Taylor knew full well that in war there are casualties and he believed in the strategy that had been laid out for the "Cold War" back in the mid/late 1940's. Kennedy was changing that strategy........did he jeopardize his life in his attempts to make those changes.......Suggest that you read of the conversation that Jackie Kennedy had with the Soviet Ambassador at the reception following the funeral of JFK.....I believe that Jackie may have had an inkling of the infighting that was going on in the administration over the issue of nuclear disarmament..

Please feel free to ask further questions but remember that:

"The Commission's most difficult assignments have been to uncover all the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy and to determine if it was in any way directed or encouraged by unknown persons at home or abroad. In this process, its objective has been to identify the person or persons responsible for both the assassination of President Kennedy and the killing of Oswald through an examination of the evidence. The task has demanded unceasing appraisal of the evidence by the individual members of the Commission in their effort to discover the whole truth."

McCloy was very legalistic and in many ways very honest in his approach to everything that he did. The above (from the forward to the Warren Commission Report) is an example of what intrigues me. Reading that first sentence and knowing that McCloy and Dulles (along with, I believe, all the commissioners) each questioned James Patrick Hosty......But no one put Hosty's third note (the one that provided information to those in the government with the exact location where Oswald was working) into the record of evidence. Rather than McCloy being a great attorney that missed that one I believe he was a great attorney that did not want that information in the record to be used as evidence. That note would have provided a trail to everyone that had access to the information that it contained..........the note seems to have completely disappreared! Even Bugliosi suggests that the hiding of evidence can be used to prove complicity in a crime....I believe that this, along with the Raleigh Call and the passenger lists from Oswald's travel from London to Helsinki all point to, at best, a failure to examine all the evidence and at worst the actual coverup of ones own conspiracy to assassinate the president.

Jim Root

Edited by Jim Root
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Jim:

I've taken some time to go back to your threads several years ago, especially the back-and-forth with Shannet and Tim C. It was insightful to read the totality of Walker/Taylor information. I am not yet well prepared to come back at these three points. I beieve that the U2 and Summit are somehow linked to what transpired. I am also convinced McCloy is a powerful (behind the scenes) bad-guy... way too many 'coincidental' affiliations with the JFK case and all the pertinent players... a ponter towards the 'big fish'.

1. I am inclined to see the Walker shooting as some kind of scripted event... LHO is involved, but why I'm not fully sure... perhaps, as Judith baker has alleged, he was actually trying to stop the assassination. Did he shoot at him on his own accord...or was he following 'orders' (and for whom?). Eitehr way you cut it, it's a precursor to later events in November, so really understanding it is a key piece of the puzzle you describe.

2. I read the McCloy letter to Walker... he was defensive, and admonished Walker for resigning from the graduate organization. He wanted to distance himself from New Frontiermanship, Cuba and the Kennedy administration. He attached his acceptance speech. But, how did this in essence 'burn' Walker with repsect to the alleged counterintelligence intrigues with LHO and U2/Summit? Did McCloy somehow send Walker a hidden message, or some go-ahead instructions for November? Nonetheless, you are right in that McCloy is a skillful lawyer, practiced at the highest levels and in international waters. Powerfully connected, financially and Pentagon wise ("McCloy's Folly"... he built the buliding!). Not a guy you'd want to go head to head with.

3. Taylor just blows my mind... his nephew described him as a sophisticated experienced spy. He and Walker (along with McCloy) had 30-40 years of battle-tested common causes; way more allegiance and loyalty than what young JFK could've established in a short time. Those guys were thicker than blood. But he has remained 'clean' on everyone's agenda, no black marks, no suspicious anechdotes, a solid upstanding reputation. he seemes to have always risen above the crowd, away from the fray. He was one of RFK's pallbearers! A so-called close 'friend' of the Kennedy familty. Its really hard for me to see him orchestrating the murder, or sanctioning the hit.

I'd like to discuss more as I collect additional thoughts.

Gene

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