Deaths of Witnesses

[Thomas Graves]

Rather than focus on mysterious deaths, why not generate enough interest to solve the verifiable homicides that the criminal justice system must address?

...

You have so many ideas about how other people can spend their time on this case BK.

Will you be following up on your own suggestions?

Myra,

I just read Bugliosi's book while on the hopper, and he's got me convinced.

I was wrong all along. My instincts betrayed me. All that time wasted. As the Bug says:

"...The best course of action for those in the conspiracy community would be to just give up and find a new passion."

So no, I won't be following up on my own suggestions.

And I'm taking up wine.

BK

Well, your post is enough convince me.

I shan't waste another instant.

From now on I'll be drinking a lot of wine. [emphasis added by T.G]

On the hopper.

_________________________________

Bill,

I'll drink a lot of Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey to that!

--Thomas

P.S. I read the other day that some 92 year old guy died. Very suspicious....

_________________________________

Edited May 21, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[Myra Bronstein]

Flag set post.

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"Flag set post."

I've noticed this popping up every so often. What does it stand for?

Thanks,

Ter

It means the update flag wasn't set Terry, so I posted again just to set it.

[Terry Mauro]

Flag set post.

************************************************************

"Flag set post."

I've noticed this popping up every so often. What does it stand for?

Thanks,

Ter

It means the update flag wasn't set Terry, so I posted again just to set it.

************************************************************

"It means the update flag wasn't set Terry, so I posted again just to set it."

O.K., gotcha. Thanks.

[John Dolva]

Rather than focus on mysterious deaths, why not generate enough interest to solve the verifiable homicides that the criminal justice system must address?

...

I think this can be approached in a couple of ways. 1. As stated, focus on the verifiable. Of course one must id what that may be. Throwing the net wide and then choosing is a credible approach IMO. 2. Another thing which I have attempted~, and if I had the opportunity of living in Dallas area for a year or two would contnue with, is the statastical analysis mentioned before. Therein one may percieve patterns that may be helpful.

There is a well documented precedent that led to successful prosecution in Argentina*.

~This was a look at police deaths and partly on change of personell. Given the resources this far from the scene (west OZ), it proved of little value as the patterns could easily be ascribed to other influences. Nevertheless if done properly, one may have a pattern that contributes to bolstering the claim of conspiracy. As said elsewhere, there is a need to, particularly now that it seems to be a prominent media focus, keep the assassination on the agenda and keep the ball rolling.

*some background to the 'unknown': Clyde Snow and the disappeared: ''Bones are their only witnesses, and they deserve to be heard,''

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...753C1A960948260

Part of Snows personal contribution (not mentioned in this articel, but detailed in his book of the investigation) was developing a statistical analysis which compared different areas and led to not only pinpointing the graves to examine but also bolstered prosecution in a decisive way. Why not something similar with a '63-'64 localised study re the JFK assassination?

Edited May 21, 2007 by John Dolva

[Myra Bronstein]

Rather than focus on mysterious deaths, why not generate enough interest to solve the verifiable homicides that the criminal justice system must address?

...

I think this can be approached in a couple of ways. 1. As stated, focus on the verifiable. Of course one must id what that may be. Throwing the net wide and then choosing is a credible approach IMO. 2. Another thing which I have attempted~, and if I had the opportunity of living in Dallas area for a year or two would contnue with, is the statastical analysis mentioned before. Therein one may percieve patterns that may be helpful.

There is a well documented precedent that led to successful prosecution in Argentina*.

~This was a look at police deaths and partly on change of personell. Given the resources this far from the scene (west OZ), it proved of little value as the patterns could easily be ascribed to other influences. Nevertheless if done properly, one may have a pattern that contributes to bolstering the claim of conspiracy. ...

Exactly. Which is why I'm trying to find out the ages of the dead witnesses.

Clearly, deaths of younger people arouse more suspicion.

I wonder if Penn Jones gave their ages.

[John Dolva]

Myra, if you are willing and in a position to do so, possibly through the networks of libraries and Uni-College library resources, unavailable to non US Citizens, this study can be made. There are databases that one needs to subscribe to that institutions have the resources to do. Including obits and local paper archives. Also visits to cemetery offices may yield results. Over here in west OZ it's only the major publications that are readily available. (Marcello apparently owned Cemetery(ies) in NO). Other private Cemeteries and morgues would have records.

An understanding of the realities of the southern situation with regards to unknown corpses and their disposal/certification is necessary. It's not a pretty picture in many instances. The coroner often had no interest or training in determining causes of death, instead 'just followed orders'. Yet it's not necessarily particulars that would yield results but rather the pattern that may emeerge that when comparing to an expected or assumed pattern, and thus seeing the anomalies will narrow down the areas to search. This is what Snow did, and contrary to skepticism of colleagues, which led him to undertake the work in private, it did emerge as a significant, if not decicive factor in prosecution of perps.

Edited May 21, 2007 by John Dolva

[Myra Bronstein]

Myra, if you are willing and in a position to do so, possibly through the networks of libraries and Uni-College library resources, unavailable to non US Citizens, this study can be made. There are databases that one needs to subscribe to that institutions have the resources to do. Including obits and local paper archives. Also visits to cemetery offices may yield results. Over here in west OZ it's only the major publications that are readily available. (Marcello apparently owned Cemetery(ies) in NO). Other private Cemeteries and morgues would have records.

An understanding of the realities of the southern situation with regards to unknown corpses and their disposal/certification is necessary. It's not a pretty picture in many instances. The coroner often had no interest or training in determining causes of death, instead 'just followed orders'. Yet it's not necessarily particulars that would yield results but rather the pattern that may emeerge that when comparing to an expected or assumed pattern, and thus seeing the anomalies will narrow down the areas to search. This is what Snow did, and contrary to skepticism of colleagues, which led him to undertake the work in private, it did emerge as a significant, if not decicive factor in prosecution of perps.

Appreciate the tips John.

I'll do what time permits.

I was sorta hoping forum members would have some of the info I'm seeking, to make the job smaller.

I'll check out Penn Jones' book.

[Thomas Graves]

Myra, if you are willing and in a position to do so, possibly through the networks of libraries and Uni-College library resources, unavailable to non US Citizens, this study can be made. There are databases that one needs to subscribe to that institutions have the resources to do. Including obits and local paper archives. Also visits to cemetery offices may yield results. Over here in west OZ it's only the major publications that are readily available. (Marcello apparently owned Cemetery(ies) in NO). Other private Cemeteries and morgues would have records.

An understanding of the realities of the southern situation with regards to unknown corpses and their disposal/certification is necessary. It's not a pretty picture in many instances. The coroner often had no interest or training in determining causes of death, instead 'just followed orders'. Yet it's not necessarily particulars that would yield results but rather the pattern that may emeerge that when comparing to an expected or assumed pattern, and thus seeing the anomalies will narrow down the areas to search. This is what Snow did, and contrary to skepticism of colleagues, which led him to undertake the work in private, it did emerge as a significant, if not decicive factor in prosecution of perps.

_____________________________

Hi John,

Wow, sounds like quite a project! Surprised it hasn't been done already....

BTW and on a totally different subject (sorry), my dad suggested that you find out what colors the car came in that particular year and put them in an alley like Walker's was that night to determine what color they really are when they look "purple" or "dark brown" under those conditions....

--Thomas

_____________________________

[John Dolva]

Myra, if you are willing and in a position to do so, possibly through the networks of libraries and Uni-College library resources, unavailable to non US Citizens, this study can be made. There are databases that one needs to subscribe to that institutions have the resources to do. Including obits and local paper archives. Also visits to cemetery offices may yield results. Over here in west OZ it's only the major publications that are readily available. (Marcello apparently owned Cemetery(ies) in NO). Other private Cemeteries and morgues would have records.

An understanding of the realities of the southern situation with regards to unknown corpses and their disposal/certification is necessary. It's not a pretty picture in many instances. The coroner often had no interest or training in determining causes of death, instead 'just followed orders'. Yet it's not necessarily particulars that would yield results but rather the pattern that may emeerge that when comparing to an expected or assumed pattern, and thus seeing the anomalies will narrow down the areas to search. This is what Snow did, and contrary to skepticism of colleagues, which led him to undertake the work in private, it did emerge as a significant, if not decicive factor in prosecution of perps.

_____________________________

Hi John,

Wow, sounds like quite a project! Surprised it hasn't been done already....

BTW and on a totally different subject (sorry), my dad suggested that you find out what colors the car came in that particular year and put them in an alley like Walker's was that night to determine what color they really are when they look "purple" or "dark brown" under those conditions....

--Thomas

_____________________________

No worries, Thomas.

I decided that the unknown variables are such that a conclusion is probably impossible.

Topics tend to be moved down in the order of prominence. However, thank you for reminding me.

Yet another 'work in progress', for the moment shelved. These things tend to reappear over time, and your fathers input is much appreciated. I realised through his questions that the answer is not simple. I think replicating the actual factors at play on that particular night in that particular place begs questions that are probably not answerable.

However, one can probably make guesses by understanding the mechanisms of the human eye in assuming particular factors. I think the topic at the time went some way towards at some time finding answers. A fundament to build on, as are so many other unfinished topics. IMO there are oddities re Surreys testimony that need exploring. But, as you say, 'a totally different subject'.

Edited May 21, 2007 by John Dolva

[Kathleen Collins]

Exactly. Which is why I'm trying to find out the ages of the dead witnesses.

Clearly, deaths of younger people arouse more suspicion.

I wonder if Penn Jones gave their ages.

Myra, I can give you info on Karyn Kupcinet. She was born Roberta Lynn Kupcinet on March 6, 1941 in Chicago, IL. Later they referred to her as "Cookie." When she went to Hollywood, she was using the name Karyn Kupcinet. She died in West Hollywood on November 28, 1963 (Thanksgiving) of aphyxiation due to manual strangulation. She was 22 years old. (Accounts always say she was 23. No, she was 22.)

Kathy

[Myra Bronstein]

Exactly. Which is why I'm trying to find out the ages of the dead witnesses.

Clearly, deaths of younger people arouse more suspicion.

I wonder if Penn Jones gave their ages.

Myra, I can give you info on Karyn Kupcinet. She was born Roberta Lynn Kupcinet on March 6, 1941 in Chicago, IL. Later they referred to her as "Cookie." When she went to Hollywood, she was using the name Karyn Kupcinet. She died in West Hollywood on November 28, 1963 (Thanksgiving) of aphyxiation due to manual strangulation. She was 22 years old. (Accounts always say she was 23. No, she was 22.)

Kathy

Thanks Kathy.

I'm most interested in date of death, age, then place of death. And you gave me all 3.

Appreciate it.

[Kathleen Collins]

Exactly. Which is why I'm trying to find out the ages of the dead witnesses.

Clearly, deaths of younger people arouse more suspicion.

I wonder if Penn Jones gave their ages.

Myra, I can give you info on Karyn Kupcinet. She was born Roberta Lynn Kupcinet on March 6, 1941 in Chicago, IL. Later they referred to her as "Cookie." When she went to Hollywood, she was using the name Karyn Kupcinet. She died in West Hollywood on November 28, 1963 (Thanksgiving) of aphyxiation due to manual strangulation. She was 22 years old. (Accounts always say she was 23. No, she was 22.)

Kathy

Thanks Kathy.

I'm most interested in date of death, age, then place of death. And you gave me all 3.

Appreciate it.

You're welcome, my dear friend.

Kathy

[John Simkin]

John Hawkins interviewed Robert Novak for the Right Wing News (20th August, 2007)

http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2007/08...obert_novak.php

John Hawkins: Now in 1977, during the Carter administration, you seem to have implied in the book that Bill Sullivan, a FBI source of yours, was murdered. In fact, you said that he told you if he was killed in an "accidental shooting," not to believe it. (Later), he was mistaken for a deer and shot to death. You think he was murdered and if so, by whom?

Robert Novak: ....That was in his retirement. He was fired by Hoover and he had an awful lot of enemies both on the Left and Right. He was the number three man in the FBI and a great source of mine.

I don't know, I just tell the story as it is. He told me the last time I saw him -- he had lunch at my house -- he had been fired by Hoover and he was going into retirement -- he said that, "Someday you will read that I have been killed in an accident, but don't believe it, I've been murdered," which was a shocking thing to say.

...Some years later, I read in the paper that he was out at dawn hunting in New Hampshire and a young man, a fellow hunter, with a long range rifle, killed him. He shot him in the neck, mistook him for a deer. The story was that the police investigated, said it was an accident, and Mr. Sullivan's family, and the man who was ghostwriting his memoirs, accepted that.

I just tell you the story straight out. There's a lot of strange things in the world that we never know the answer to.

[Christopher Hall]

John Hawkins interviewed Robert Novak for the Right Wing News (20th August, 2007)

http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2007/08...obert_novak.php

John Hawkins: Now in 1977, during the Carter administration, you seem to have implied in the book that Bill Sullivan, a FBI source of yours, was murdered. In fact, you said that he told you if he was killed in an "accidental shooting," not to believe it. (Later), he was mistaken for a deer and shot to death. You think he was murdered and if so, by whom?

Robert Novak: ....That was in his retirement. He was fired by Hoover and he had an awful lot of enemies both on the Left and Right. He was the number three man in the FBI and a great source of mine.

I don't know, I just tell the story as it is. He told me the last time I saw him -- he had lunch at my house -- he had been fired by Hoover and he was going into retirement -- he said that, "Someday you will read that I have been killed in an accident, but don't believe it, I've been murdered," which was a shocking thing to say.

...Some years later, I read in the paper that he was out at dawn hunting in New Hampshire and a young man, a fellow hunter, with a long range rifle, killed him. He shot him in the neck, mistook him for a deer. The story was that the police investigated, said it was an accident, and Mr. Sullivan's family, and the man who was ghostwriting his memoirs, accepted that.

I just tell you the story straight out. There's a lot of strange things in the world that we never know the answer to.

I have a hard time believing that Sullivan died accidentally under these circumstances, because:

1. Hunters wear copious amounts of blaze orange clothing (assuming he was a safe hunter);

2. He foretold his likely death;

3. It is difficult (but not impossible) to mistake a deer (particularly one with antlers if it was buck season) for a human; and

4. There were a lot of other deaths, of people who may have relevant testimony in the HSAC proceedings, at that time.

[Jack White]

"he was out at dawn hunting in New Hampshire and a young man, a fellow hunter, with a long range rifle, killed him. He shot him in the neck, mistook him for a deer. "

This is filled with misinformation. He was in his backyard...NOT OUT HUNTING. The person

who shot him WAS NOT OUT HUNTING; he was NOT A FELLOW HUNTER; he was the son of a

local law officer.

Jack