Shooters and Locations

[Lee Forman]

This is a tough one, but I had originally planned to post it following my question concerning the number of shots fired. As per the last response concerning the storm drain, I'm not even listing it as a possible. Feel free to object.

I don't think it's wise at this stage to debate identities, or sequence, as there are so many different theories. I believe it would be helpful to gain consensus at least as to location and number.

True Triangulation.....

Office Buildings

- DalTex - one shooter, broom closet, window under fire escape stairs

- Texas Book Depository - two shooters, both 6th floor, or one on the 6th and one on the 5th

- Dallas Records - one shooter on the roof

These shooters accounted for:

- A miss that struck Elm

- A miss that struck the Stemmon's Freeway sign, as seen in Z-Film frame 208.

- A miss that struck the curb, and injured Teague

- A miss that struck the pavement by the manhole cover by Main

- A miss that lodged in the dashboard chrome

- A hit to Kennedy's back

- A hit to Connally's back

- A hit to Connaly's wrist

Knoll shots

- North knoll - one shooter [fatal shot]

- South knoll - one shooter [neck wound]

These shooters accounted for:

- A hit to Kennedy's throat that first penetrated the windshield.

- A hit to Kennedy's temple that blew out the occipital portion of his skull. This wound was fatal.

Using my other post, number of shots fired, there still remains the following, which are open to interpretation:

- A possible hit to the back of Kennedy's head

- A possible hit to Connally's thigh

- The 2 shots that created furrows in the grass

- The bullet that was picked up and pocketed

- Bullets [fired] found on rooftops in nearby Dallas

We still have 10+ shots being fired, from a number of different trajectories, and I have a very low confidence level personally in the frontal neck wound as having come from the North knoll. Would this line up with the hole in the windshield?

It's all open for discussion, but this is where I find myself at present. And again, although there's no proof, it's my impression that silencers must have been used on some of the weaponry involved [south Knoll shot and Country Records].

It would have been nice to have the limo handy for evaluation of evidence in the what was the most significant crime scene in the history of the United States, if LBJ hadn't ordered it cleaned, stripped and repaired.

- lee

[Bernice Moore]

Hi Lee:

I certainly agree it would have been a great idea, not to destroy any evidence

such as pertaining to the Limo...nor anything pertinent.....but..

There are also four other possibilitys of shots...?? I know what you are thinking,

so many....sheesh...

On the North curb of Elm...there was an alleged bullet mark on the sidewalk

now if it was from an assassin's gun....it lined up exactly with the window at the

western end of the TSBD..It was not examined the afternoon of the assassination

because a police car was parked over it during the search in Dealey...by the time it was removed and tested, some 15 years later...if there had been any traces of metal, they were not found...by then..

Also, the shot that hit and slammed into the the windshield frame of the President's limo...that missed both the President and the Governor...above the rear view mirror..the SS even took a photo of such for us......it was fired from behind ...The WC ignored this evidence also...

....their response was that it had probably occured before Dallas.???

Also, and I cannot think of their names right now, of course, a couple in the area of the manhole cover in Dealey ,where Deputy Harry Weatherford was stationed to guard ..somewhere pertaining to such.....saw two, what appeared to be little mole hills running along side by side in the grass, and remarked about such, to a policeman,and were told no Mam they are bullets under the soil.???...

Aw now Lee, never leave out any possibility's.....

Thanks B...

[Larry Peters]

"Also, and I cannot think of their names right now, of course, a couple in the area of the manhole cover in Dealey ,where Deputy Harry Weatherford was stationed to guard ..somewhere pertaining to such.....saw two, what appeared to be little mole hills running along side by side in the grass, and remarked about such, to a policeman,and were told no Mam they are bullets under the soil.???..."

That was Mrs. Hartman who seen the furrow in the grass. It was one furrow that she said looked like a mole run. She showed it to a policeman who told her that this looked like where a bullet. The location was just west to where Hill and Moorman were standing. Mrs. Hartman was misstated in the FBI report which claimed she had said the furrow lead back to the TSBD. Mark Oakes showed Mrs. and Mr. Hartman the FBI report in 1992 and they were furious that the FBI altered what they had said. Mrs. Hartman said the furrow led back to the large tree above the knoll. (That would be the Badge Man location)

Below is Mrs. Hartman showing Mark Oaskes where the furrow was located in the grass.

Edited May 17, 2004 by Larry Peters

[Lee Forman]

Hi Bernice!

Actually, then, the number may be higher than my initial 11 assessment.

I covered the 2 shots in the grass in my assessment.

The curb would be the Teague shot, right?

The sidewalk shot - was this the same as the one by the manhole cover, or separate and distinct?

I also covered the other shot as the 'dashboard chrome.'

So now the total is [not in sequential order!!!!]:

1 - A miss that struck Elm

2? - A miss that struck the Stemmon's Freeway sign, as seen in Z-Film frame 208?

Sign appears to vibrate? Loss of material from the back of the sign? Sign taken down and replaced? I can't find any supporting evidence on what I had thought to be a Stemmon's Freeway sign shot - Help?

3 - A miss that struck the curb, and injured Teague

4 - A miss that struck the 'sidewalk' not the pavement, by the manhole cover by Main.

5 - A miss that lodged in the dashboard chrome

6 - A hit to Kennedy's back

7 - A hit to Connally's back

8 - A hit to Connally's wrist

9. A furrow in the grass.

10. Another furrow in the grass.

11. A hit to Kennedy's throat that first penetrated the windshield.

12. A hit to Kennedy's temple that blew out the occipital portion of his skull. This wound was fatal.

13? - A possible hit to the back of Kennedy's head

14? - A possible hit to Connally's thigh

15? - The bullet that was picked up off the grass and pocketed

16? - Bullet [fired] found on a rooftop in nearby Dallas

Still 11 'definites.'

More on the windshield just for the fun of it. From what I have read, and I'll cite Fetzer's "Murder in Dealey Plaza," specifically the chapter on the limousine, by Douglas Weldon, the initial shot to the windshield fully penetrated it, and you could stick a pencil through it. Page 140: Farnk Cormier, Dr. Evalea Glanges, Dallas Police Officer Stavis Ellis and H.R. Freeman - all saw a 'hole.'

The windshield was apparently replaced and 'redamaged,' as per the testimony of William Hess of the Ford Motor Corporation. This was done to eliminate the possibility of a shot coming from the front. Hess goes on to say, having worked with glass for 40 years [page 144], that in his years of experience, the shot that caused the hole came from the front.

More on the South Knoll, using this same reference:

Page 156.

"I further consulted with a number of experts about the feasibility of a shot originating from the south side of the underpass. All responded that it was not a difficult shot for a world-class sniper...I was also concerned that a sniper might have possibly used a silencer from such a location to further minimize being detected."

Page 154.

"The windshield shot offered a perfect trajectory for a sniper firing from the top of the south side of the underpass."

Conclusion: Either the audio of the Dallas Police Department was of poor quality, improperly analyzed, tampered with, out-of-range, distorted due to echoes, the open mic of H.B. McLain, etc., or silencers were clearly used from more than one location, including the South Knoll.

I visited it - The South Knoll would have been a very likely spot for an assassin. From Murder in Dealey Plaza again, pg 58, Dallas Police Officer J.W. Foster, leaves his position on top of the Overpass, above the South Knoll, and runs to the area behind the North Knoll, where he also saw smoke. No one is examining the area behind the South Knoll.

P.S. I continue to discount the storm drain shot. Who would put themselves into that type of predicament? Everyone else appears to have had planned a successful escape route, well in advance. What if some kid had said, "Look Mommy! There's a man with a gun down there?"

[Bernice Moore]

Hi Lee:

The sidewalk shot was on the North side of Elm..it appears to be a long gouge

in the sidewalk...Not the Tague shot...that is the South side..next to Main..Not

the manhole cover on the South side..

This is the North curb of Elm...on the sidewalk..if it was a hit

then it would have aligned to the West end

side of the building windows on the TSBD.

See, a photo in.."The Killing of a President"..Robert Groden...page 40

You have covered what information there is on the shot to the windshield , the

through and through with what I have read of such...I hope you have

access to TMWKK the Smoking Guns..

Doug Weldon speaks of and has given many years of study to the Limo..

and is presented on the Video...also Dr.Evalea relates her information pertaining

to such, she BTW, had a life long experience with guns...and bullets..

Charles Taylor JR...in his Secret Service Report in seeing the Limo in the

White House Garage...says he saw a small hole in the windshield..Vince

Prunspey (sp?) a U.S. Police Park Officer, also saw such in the WH garage

and noted a small hole..

In the White House Garage Reports it is noted that from late in the evening

of Nov.24th 63..the entire day of the 25th...not till Nov.26th...was one person

logged into the WH Garage....during that time, as there are many airports in

the area it could have been flown out easily, taken by transport truck, to the Ford

Dearborn,plant...

The late George Whittaker Sr. a manager at the Rouge (sp) plant....and a lifetime

employee, explained that on Nov. 25th, he arrived for work, at the B Building

and was astonished to see the Limo in which the President had been killed.

The interior had been stripped and the glass windshield removed...He then

proceeded to the Glass Lab...and the door was locked.Upon the opening of

such, two subordinates were there and had been ordered to take the wind

shield and make a template for a new windshield to be made...there he saw

a clean round hole through the front of the windshield with fragmentation

through the back...recall he had 30 years experience with glass, and had

seen many windshields with firearms damage....The hole he saw corresponds

exactly with the area in the Report given by SS Charles Taylor...the orders were

for the pdamaged windshield to be scraped, and he stated it was..The interview

by George with Doug was in Augusr of 93.......when he died 8 years later,

there was found a letter,his statement, corresponding exactly with what he had

stated in 93.....to Doug Weldon...this reaffirmed his information...in writing.

All I think I know, is that there were many shots that day in Dealey, where from

I do not know..there were many spots to create a Cross Fire from..a Triangle..

I am a long time student, and learning every day, as we all are. I have read

many theory's...whether they are correct is up to the individual ,we must

all do our own critical thinking.....Bob Goodman."Triangle of Fire"

once sold a newspaper in the Plaza, that had 60 different theory's in such as

to how President Kennedy was killed.....their opinion is as good as mine..

all are..Some have spent years on studying different theory's on where the

bullets originated from..and different aspects of the case..

...and to me their work is to be respected..seeing I

have not created my own theory.. I cannot say who is right and who is wrong.

...and as far as that goes, as I did say, I don't think now we shall ever know

positivley,I hope so, but the What I want is the Whom gave the orders, that is a great

possibility as more and more is discovered and the research is released.

Apparantly, no one was to be admitted to the open, triangle-shaped area..

of Dealey that day....?...Jean Hill......

"To achieve her goals, she and Mary had charmed a young policeman into

letting them into the open, triangle shaped area bounded by Main, Elm and

Houston Streets where they now stood. The triangle, which was directly

across Elm Street from the spot where the main crowd had gathered in

front of the school despository , was normally off-limits to civilians, and

Jean and Mary were virtually the only ones occupying it at the moment.

It provided an unrestricted vantage point for snapping pictures of the

motorcade, and the two women had established themselves in an ideal

spot, squarely on the curb of Elm Street, where Jean calculated they

would be no more than ten feet from the president's car and J.B's

motorcycle when they passed."..from "JFK :The Last Dissenting Witness"

Jean Hill, Bill Sloan...

Good question who would put themselves into that type of a predicament,

in a sewer ?..If they were, I sure would like to know.....killers.???

desperate men,for whatever reason.. whomever pulled the triggers were..

I would like to know, from whom they received their orders...

But I understand, all I do know is that men, serious men,spent years,

like Penn Jones, Jack Brazil, Thomas Wilson

studying and found it was possible...and Thomas Wilson

and Greg Burnham, did studies....on the trajectory of the angle of a frontal

shot....and the angle the bullet or a bullet entered the President's skull..as far as

"Look Mommy! There's a man with a gun down there?"....good one..

but also, "Look there are men up there in the windows with a rifle "...

that was heard also several times that day.....and no one reacted.....

the old that's security, I am afraid may have been her reply..also...

So, I do not know if there was anypne in the sewers, no one does, or

exactly where they were, many have their own opinions, but there are many

questions, about all....

There were three apparently contradictory copies of the Police

Radio Logs...there were 362 typewritten pages of the three versions.

of the same radio logs...all represented as recording the communications

relating to the crimes, that day..Both police channels were recorded that

day..so even allowing for well used equipment there cannot be any

explanation for the WC to be presented with such, as it was incomplete

info.and the fact also remains that they did not comment on such nor explain,

There was no way that a investigation could be conducted without this

basic record...let alone a fair one.....this and much is in Harold Weisberg's ..

"Whitwash..the Report on the Warren Report"...There is a March version,

( All Radio Logs including the Sherriff's and the State Police's are Exhibit

705.in Vol 17.on pages 361-494........The Police section begins on page 390,

and takes up 104 pages..)......On April 8/64 a dispatcher Gerald Dalton

Henslee, appeared and testified, (6H325-7)..one of the briefest appearances.

Exhibits A and B were introduced into evidence (21H388-400). In a dozen

pages he prepared a version of what was incomplete in the 104 pages, and

it was accepted without question .His version was also prepared without names,

but then at some point the names were added by longhand..It misidentified

some and failed to identify others..Finally, on the date of Aug.11/64 in response

to a Commission request, the FBI supplied the final version, Exhibit 1974

(17H361-495) ..to this report there are 216 sheets. Yet it also was incomplete..

It was not received until the WC was almost finished..."A book could be written

about the logs alone." H.W.......All of Harold Wesiberg's books are available

from Hood's College..and very reasonably priced....they teach this course

there I believe,and they are still available and the teachings continue, I hope so...

He donated some 300,000 files upon his death in 2001..

As far as the audio of the tapes, now there are also many different thoughts

on what is heard on them also.??one report I believe says four shots, yet later

another states four...A little something, I have been trying to find out more

about but there is very little.so far...Hearing witnesses some distance away,

state,they heard many shots.??...as the echo and the lay of the land, in

that perfect killing spot, distorted sounds...people who were at the corner

of Houston and Elm, and others who were some distance in the Plaza..

did not hear the same...amount of shots in many cases....the people who

were a block or two away or further from the sight, did not in otherwards,

hear echos, or a jumble of noise, their hearing would be more distinct to

the number of shots heard, possibley?.

As to a shot hitting Connally's thigh, his Doctor stated they were fragments

not a whole bullet...but right now, I cannot recall where I have read this..

Thanks, Larry for Mr & Mrs. Hartman's id...and the photo, now how did you

do that.?.....and as you quote Mark Oates,their

being furious that their statement had been altered, not surprised...

Too many people were misstated in the

FBI reports, could you please tell me where I might find this?

I would appreciate the information....

Thanks for your time.....B

[Larry Peters]

As to a shot hitting Connally's thigh, his Doctor stated they were fragments

not a whole bullet...but right now, I cannot recall where I have read this..

Thanks, Larry for Mr & Mrs. Hartman's id...and the photo, now how did you

do that.?.....and as you quote Mark Oates,their

being furious that their statement had been altered, not surprised...

Too many people were misstated in the

FBI reports, could you please tell me where I might find this?

I would appreciate the information....

Groden has a taped interview of Connally's doctor saying that is WAS a bullet still left in the Governor's thight at the time of the Parkland interview. I suspect he had his reasons for saying otherwise as the pressure over the sole assassin scenario started mounting, but he said it at the Parkland conference and again to Groden not long before he died.

Anyone wanting the Hartman interview and to learn about the FBI report that misstated Mrs. Hartman concerning the path direction of the furrow - contact Mark Oakes at realjfkfacts@hotmail.com

Mark has Mrs Hartman's interview, as well as other key witnesses he interviewed on a VHS tape and I believe it's now on DVD, as well.