John M. Newman

[John Simkin]

John M. Newman spent 20 years with the U.S. Army Intelligence. This included serving in in Thailand, the Philippines, Japan, and China. He eventually became executive assistant to the director of the National Security Agency (NSA).

After leaving the NSA Newman joined the University of Maryland where he taught courses in Soviet, Chinese Communist, East Asian, and Vietnam War history, as well as Sino-Soviet and U.S.-Soviet relations.

John M. Newman is the author of JFK and Vietnam: Deception, Intrigue, and the Struggle for Power (1992) and Oswald and the CIA (1995). He also served as served as an adviser to Oliver Stone while he was making JFK and was one of the experts called upon to advise the JFK Assassination Records Review Board.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

John M. Newman spent 20 years with the U.S. Army Intelligence.

Newman is, without doubt, a heavy hitter. Has he, or will he be, joining the forum?

His next book has been reported as entitled "JFK and Cuba." Any word on a publisher or a publication date?

[John Simkin]

John M. Newman spent 20 years with the U.S. Army Intelligence.

Newman is, without doubt, a heavy hitter. Has he, or will he be, joining the forum?

His next book has been reported as entitled "JFK and Cuba." Any word on a publisher or a publication date?

I will be asking John Newman to join the Forum to discuss his books. Here is an interesting passage from his Oswald and the CIA (1995):

On September 10, 1963, Special Agent Hosty sent a report on Oswald to the Bureau and to New Orleans. It was the first FBI document to make it into Oswald's CIA files since the Fain report of August 30, 1962. Hosty began by acknowledging Oswald's Magazine Street address, an address everyone else in the FBI had known about for a month. Hosty then said Oswald had been working at the William Reily Coffee Company on August 5. He apparently did not know that Oswald had been fired from his job at Reily Coffee on July 19.103 Hosty did mention the April 21 Oswald letter to the FPCC from Dallas. It would appear, however, that he did not know about Oswald's arrest in New Orleans or chose for some reason not to say anything about it. Hosty did not know about the Quigley jailhouse interview.

On Monday, September 23, the employees at CIA headquarters were still catching up on the weekend's traffic when Hosty's report arrived under FBI director Hoover's signature. It was 1:24 in the afternoon when someone named Annette in the CIA's Records Integration Division attached a CIA routing and record sheet to the report and sent it along to the liaison office of the counterintelligence staff, where Jane Roman was still working. As discussed in Chapter Two, Roman received the first phone call from the FBI about Oswald on November 2, 1959.

When Jane Roman got the Hosty report, she signed for it and, presumably after having read it, determined the next CIA organizational element to whom it should be sent. The office she chose was Counterintelligence Operations, CI/OPS. The telltale "P" of William ("Will") Potocci, who worked in Counterintelligence Operations, appears next to the CI/OPS entry, along with the date that Roman passed the report on to him-September 25. Potocci presumably worked in this office, although something on the routing sheet-probably Potocci's name or some activity indicator in CU OPS-is still being withheld by the CIA.

CIA readers of the Hosty report were treated to the outlines of the story we have followed in this and the previous three chapters: how Oswald had returned from Russia to Fort Worth, Texas, where he subscribed to the communist newspaper the Worker, and then moved to New Orleans, where he took a job in the Reily Coffee Company; most important, the CIA learned that on April 21 Oswald, having moved from Fort Worth to Dallas, contacted the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York City. The report also recounted Oswald's claim to have stood on a Dallas street with a placard around his neck that read "Hands Off Cuba-Viva Fidel."

The CIA did not put this report into Oswald's 201 file, but instead into a new file with a different number: 100-300-11. We will return to that file in Chapter Nineteen. Even as the Hosty report made its way from Jane Roman to Will Potocci, an FBI agent in New Orleans was preparing yet another report on Oswald that would arrive at the CIA on October 2. This, as we will see, was the very day that Oswald, having spent five nights in Mexico City, departed from the Mexican capital.

On his way from New Orleans to Mexico City, Oswald is reported to have visited the home of Silvia Odio in Dallas. The Odio "incident," as it has become known with the passage of time, was labeled by researcher Sylvia Meagher as the "proof of the plot," because the Warren Commission accepted that Odio was visited by three men-one of whom was "Oswald." Meagher's point was that whether it was an impostor or Oswald himself, as Odio believes, the group that visited her apartment and phoned her afterward, and their pre assassination discussion of killing Kennedy, is awkward, if not antithetical, for the lone-nut hypothesis. The Warren Commission accepted that the event occurred, but dismissed Odio's version of it. First, the commission found that a September 26 or 27 visit was not possible given Oswald's time requirements for arriving in Mexico City at ten A.M. on September 27.

Second, the Warren Commission believed it had identified the three men who visited Odio: Loran Eugene Hall, Larry Howard, and William Seymour, who was "similar in appearance to Lee Harvey Oswald." All three were soldiers of fortune involved with the Cuban exiles. Hall was a self described gun runner." As discussed in Chapter Fourteen, Seymour was an associate of Hemming's.

Both of these Warren Commission contributions damaged the public's understanding of the facts in the case and the public's confidence in the integrity and objectivity of the Commission's work. The Hall-Howard-Seymour story, supplied by the FBI just in time to save the Warren Report - on its way to press - the embarrassment of not having discredited Odio's version of the incident, later turned out to be wholly fraudulent. No official connected to the Warren Report has ever apologized to the public or Silvia Odio for their shabby treatment of her and their acceptance of a concocted story, an egregious error given what was at stake.

In spite of this, strong feelings about the Odio incident remain. Silvia Odio is "full of hot air," FBI special agent Hosty said in a recent interview. Hosty did not elaborate further about the meaning of this remark, but he offered an interesting variation of the Hall and Seymour part of the story: "Hall told us [the FBI] that it was he who had been by Odio's. When the police arrested Hall they talked to Heitman." Special Agent Heitman, Hosty says, was the FBI agent "who worked among the Cubans. I was working the right wing extremists, like General [Edwin] Walker, etc." After Hall told the authorities he had visited Odio, Hosty claims, "Seymour threatened him and so he changed his story." Hosty's account also raises the possibility that William Pawley might have been involved.

"I knew of him," Hosty said of William Pawley in a recent interview."' As discussed in Chapter Seven, Pawley was working for the CIA in Miami, reporting on the Cuban situation through an extensive network of contacts. Hosty told researcher Dr. Larry Haapanan in 1983 that he thought the men who visited Odio might have been agents working for Pawley. In 1995 Hosty contacted the author, and in a follow-up interview he said, " It could be Pawley. H. L. Hunt was backing Pawley's people, and they were also getting support from Henry Luce. It could be that Pawley's guys spying on JURE (Junta Revolucionaria Cubana, led by Amador Odio]. They could have been working for Pawley or one of the other splinter groups.

The possibility that on September 25, Pawley and his right wing anti-Castro allies were using Oswald and his cohorts to collect information on the left wing JURE faction led by Silvia's father (then in one of Castro's prisons) is intriguing. It only further magnifies what the Warren Commission feared about the rest of the Odio story: It fits into the lone-nut hypothesis like a two-by-four in a Cuisinart.

[Jim Root]

John

Just received a copy of this book and am begining to dig into it.

Two things intrigue me:

1). The book begins with accounting for the first FBI Oswald file (105-82555) that resulted from newspaper stories resulting from information gathered by Robert J. Korengold and Aline Mosby. The CIA (via the State Department) soon had Confidential cable 1304 from the embassy in Moscow dealing with Oswald ( the Snyder cable of Oct. 31, 1959).

2). This Newman quote, 'The Agency (CIA) cannot account for the details of its receipt and handling of Snyder's cable. In 1964 the Warren Commission asked then-CIA Director Richard Helms to account for a number of crucial Oswald documents. Helms could not explain when the Agency had received several of the 1959-1960 files on Oswald. Incredible though it may seem in view of the amount of press coverage of Oswald's defection, the beginning of the oswald file in the CIA is the story of a hidden file inside a black hole. It was a file so sensitive that almost no one in the Agency knew of its existence." (pg 24)

This drives me to return to one of my burning questions: "Since Lee harvey Oswald first wrote the Socialist Workers Party on October 3, 1956 and the CIA had a mail opening program in place dealing with mail to New York that involved Helms and Angleton (who would eventually be identitifed as the recipiants of the Oswald CIA aquired information) can we resonably speculate that a CIA file could have been started on Oswald as early as 1956?

Jim Root

[John Simkin]

John Newman has just published a second edition of Oswald and the CIA.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Oswald-CIA-Documen...9758&sr=1-1

It includes a new chapter entitled "The Plot to Murder President Kennedy": Here is a quote from pages 636-637:

It is now apparent that the World War III pretext for a national security cover-up was built into the fabric of the plot to assassinate President Kennedy. The plot required that Oswald be maneuvered into place in Mexico City and his activities there carefully monitored, controlled, and, if necessary, embellished and choreographed. the plot required that, prior to 22 November, Oswald's profile at CIA HQS and the Mexico station be lowered; his 201 file had to be manipulated and restricted from incoming traffic on his Cuban activities. The plot required that, when the story from Mexico City arrived at HQS, its significance would not be understood by those responsible for reacting to it. Finally, the plot required that, on 22 November, Oswald's CIA files would establish his connection to Castro and the Kremlin.

The person who designed this plot had to have access to all of the information on Oswald at CIA HQS. The person who designed this plot had to have the authority to alter how information on Oswald was kept at CIA HQS. The person who designed this plot had the authority to alter how information on Oswald was kept at CIA HQS. The person who designed this plot had to have access to project TUMBLEWEED, the sensitive joint agency operation against the KGB assassin, Valery Kosikov. The person who designed this plot had the authority to instigate a counterintelligence operation in the Cuban affairs staff (SAS) at CIA HQS. In my view, there is only one person whose hands fit into these gloves: James Jesus Angleton, Chief of CIA's Counterintelligence Staff.

Angleton and his molehunters had always held Oswald's files very close to the vest - from the time of the young Marine's defection in October 1959 and his offer to provide classified radar information to the Soviets. That offer had lit up the counterintelligence circuits in Washington, D.C. like a Christmas tree. Angleton was the only person who knew - except for perhaps one of his direct subordinates - both the Cuban and Soviet parts of Oswald's story. He was the only one in the Counterintelligence Staff with enough authority to instigate a counterintelligence operation in the SAS against the FPCC.

In my view, whoever Oswald's direct handler or handlers were, we must now seriously consider the possibility that Angleton was probably their general manager. No one else in the Agency had the access, the authority, and the diabolically ingenious mind to manage this sophisticated plot. No one else had the means necessary to plant the WWIII virus in Oswald's files and keep it dormant for six weeks until the president's assassination. Whoever those who were ultimately responsible for the decision to kill Kennedy were, their reach extended into the national intelligence apparatus to such a degree that they could call upon a person who knew its inner secrets and workings so well that he could design a failsafe mechanism into the fabric of the plot. The only person who could ensure that a national security cover-up of an apparent counterintelligence nightmare was the head of counterintelligence.

[Robert Howard]

John Newman has just published a second edition of Oswald and the CIA.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Oswald-CIA-Documen...9758&sr=1-1

It includes a new chapter entitled "The Plot to Murder President Kennedy": Here is a quote from pages 636-637:

It is now apparent that the World War III pretext for a national security cover-up was built into the fabric of the plot to assassinate President Kennedy. The plot required that Oswald be maneuvered into place in Mexico City and his activities there carefully monitored, controlled, and, if necessary, embellished and choreographed. the plot required that, prior to 22 November, Oswald's profile at CIA HQS and the Mexico station be lowered; his 201 file had to be manipulated and restricted from incoming traffic on his Cuban activities. The plot required that, when the story from Mexico City arrived at HQS, its significance would not be understood by those responsible for reacting to it. Finally, the plot required that, on 22 November, Oswald's CIA files would establish his connection to Castro and the Kremlin.

The person who designed this plot had to have access to all of the information on Oswald at CIA HQS. The person who designed this plot had to have the authority to alter how information on Oswald was kept at CIA HQS. The person who designed this plot had the authority to alter how information on Oswald was kept at CIA HQS. The person who designed this plot had to have access to project TUMBLEWEED, the sensitive joint agency operation against the KGB assassin, Valery Kosikov. The person who designed this plot had the authority to instigate a counterintelligence operation in the Cuban affairs staff (SAS) at CIA HQS. In my view, there is only one person whose hands fit into these gloves: James Jesus Angleton, Chief of CIA's Counterintelligence Staff.

Angleton and his molehunters had always held Oswald's files very close to the vest - from the time of the young Marine's defection in October 1959 and his offer to provide classified radar information to the Soviets. That offer had lit up the counterintelligence circuits in Washington, D.C. like a Christmas tree. Angleton was the only person who knew - except for perhaps one of his direct subordinates - both the Cuban and Soviet parts of Oswald's story. He was the only one in the Counterintelligence Staff with enough authority to instigate a counterintelligence operation in the SAS against the FPCC.

In my view, whoever Oswald's direct handler or handlers were, we must now seriously consider the possibility that Angleton was probably their general manager. No one else in the Agency had the access, the authority, and the diabolically ingenious mind to manage this sophisticated plot. No one else had the means necessary to plant the WWIII virus in Oswald's files and keep it dormant for six weeks until the president's assassination. Whoever those who were ultimately responsible for the decision to kill Kennedy were, their reach extended into the national intelligence apparatus to such a degree that they could call upon a person who knew its inner secrets and workings so well that he could design a failsafe mechanism into the fabric of the plot. The only person who could ensure that a national security cover-up of an apparent counterintelligence nightmare was the head of counterintelligence.

There is a online version of one of John Newman's presentations written since Oswald and The CIA was first published.....

If you are one of those people who tries to cover all the bases, the crux of the whole immediate Mexico City investigation was the fact that the CIA and FBI had transcripts, not just the agency.

According to Newman, who is about as impeccable as they come....The Oswald/Kostikov cables were in effect just sitting there like a time bomb waiting to go off on November 22, 1963.....Dimming the switches, I think, is the term he used.

But TUMBLEWEED is the story to me......Accordingly, someone mentioned Gunter Schulz as a possibility........Anyone seen any interesting photos of him......

Nevertheless, there are some interesting conclusions one can draw from some of the statements made that have seemed? so puzzling over the years....Like Hoover telling Robert Kennedy that Oswald had been to Cuba several times, when he knew it wasn't true.......Sturgis rattled the same cage years after the assassination, but with him it was Ruby, instead of Oswald.

Just an opinion.

Or how about the comment attributed to Oswald "I could not take a chance on requesting a new visa unless I used my real name, so I returned to the United States."

I will catch it for saying this, but considering the propensity for falsification of everything under the sun, relating to Oswald's ostensible guilt, it seems no one has ever stopped to consider that maybe the above statement was written by someone other than Oswald, I mean the quote is from a letter, isn't it? Did anybody see Lee Harvey Oswald mail the letter? The point is that everything has to be questioned that is still a mystery, and this particular area is certainly apropos.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Robert Howard

[Jim Root]

Let me drop a few thoughts here and attempt to open up the discussion a little further based upon some speculation generated from research that I have done.

First: "It is now apparent that the World War III pretext for a national security cover-up was built into the fabric of the plot to assassinate President Kennedy. The plot required that Oswald be maneuvered into place in Mexico City and his activities there carefully monitored, controlled, and, if necessary, embellished and choreographed."

I am led to agree with this statement for various reasons. Three thoughts on this:

A) A picture of a man reported to be Oswald was released, whom we know was not Oswald, perhaps providing a clear message to someone (or country) that they could be associated with the assassination.

I believe that it is possible that while in Mexico City, Oswald may have been provided with a cut out phone number to call and told to make a person to person collect call to "John Hurt" in Raleigh, North Carolina if he were to get into trouble. This may have resulted in motivating US Intelligence to rally behind and create a plan to eliminate Oswald after the assassination.

C) We know that both these events (false picture that was released and Raleigh call) in fact occured. I tend to agree that only the "Big Fish" would have been capable of these "maneuvers."

Second: "The person who designed this plot had to have access to all of the information on Oswald at CIA HQS. The person who designed this plot had to have the authority to alter how information on Oswald was kept at CIA HQS. The person who designed this plot had the authority to alter how information on Oswald was kept at CIA HQS. The person who designed this plot had to have access to project TUMBLEWEED, the sensitive joint agency operation against the KGB assassin, Valery Kosikov. The person who designed this plot had the authority to instigate a counterintelligence operation in the Cuban affairs staff (SAS) at CIA HQS. In my view, there is only one person whose hands fit into these gloves: James Jesus Angleton, Chief of CIA's Counterintelligence Staff.

I am led to disagree with the conclusion of this statement. My research points to a different person, a man that was involved in the creation of both the OSS and the CIA and the NSA. He is also a man that I can prove was associated with NSA linguist John Hurt and a man that was closely associated with Secret Intelligence (SI) head Whitney Shepardson. I have information that it was Whitney Shepardson, in June of 1959, who was meeting with and collecting information in association with Richard Helms (another former SI man) that centered on Stockhom, Sweden and Helsinki, Finland. While this collection of information was occuring Wilho Tikander, another former SI man, speculated that a very important operation was about to occur centered on Helsinki. Shepardson was a close associate of Demitri de Mohrenschildt (brother of George), John J. McCloy and John Grombach (the head of a shadowy organization known as "The Pond").

Third: "He ((Angelton) was the only one in the Counterintelligence Staff with enough authority to instigate a counterintelligence operation in the SAS against the FPCC."

I will be so bold as to suggest that it is my belief that a parallel organization to the CIA always existed that had "enough authority to instigate a couterintelligence operation" against any organization within or outside of the United States. While I believe that Angleton may well have been aware of the existance of the organization he was not the "Big Fish."

Forth: "Angleton and his molehunters had always held Oswald's files very close to the vest - from the time of the young Marine's defection in October 1959 and his offer to provide classified radar information to the Soviets. That offer had lit up the counterintelligence circuits in Washington, D.C. like a Christmas tree. Angleton was the only person who knew - except for perhaps one of his direct subordinates - both the Cuban and Soviet parts of Oswald's story. He was the only one in the Counterintelligence Staff with enough authority to instigate a counterintelligence operation in the SAS against the FPCC."

In my previous post on this thread I pointed out that both Angelton and Helms were involved in the mail opening sceme dirceted by the CIA. It must also be remembered that Nuclear Arms negotiator John J. McCloy was very concerned that the US would be forced into signing the Limited Test Ban Treaty at the Paris Summit (May 1960) that McCloy and others felt would be detrimental to the security of the United States. Oswald's defection to the Soviet Union and the downplaying of his 201 File, in perspective, suggests the possibility that the downing of Francis Gary Powers and the failure of the Paris Summit may have been an event that was manipulated by a very powerful force within US Intelligence. Adding to this speculation we find that Richard Helms, who would be managing Oswald's 201 File was working with Whitney Shepardson (friend of Demitri de Mohrenschildt) as he collected information about Helsinki, Finland in the later half of 1959. In the Dulles biography it is pointed out the Richard Helms maintained a "private" intelligence network. Since Helms had been part of SI (as was Shepardson) and SI had been created under the watchful eye of John J. McCloy during WWII we find an interesting network of people surround this Oswald guy.

Five months prior to the assassination of John F. Kennedy, John J. McCloy would engage in a dispute with the President and refused to negotiate the Limited Test Ban Treaty of 1963. After the death of JFK, McCloy would once again become the lead arms negotiator for the United States.

McCloy would also participate in the Warren Commission.....

1) Which did not provide information on Oswald's trip from London to Helsinki

2) Did not enter FBI Agent Hosty's third note (which provided information to US Intelligence on exactly where Lee Harvey Oswald was working prior to the planning of the motorcade route) into evidence and that note has never turned up on any CIA list of documents althouth Hosty's privious two notes went directly to the Office of Richard Helms!

3) Information on the Raleigh Call never made it into the Commission Report although the name of the person that the call was directed to matches the name of a man that McCloy quoted during discussion with President Truman dealing with the surrender of Japan and the need to use atomic weapons to end WWII. The two men assigned (indirectly) by the Warren Commission) to investigate Oswald's potential intelligence connection were in fact directly associated with NSA linguist John Hurt and on (Frank Rowlett) directly associated with John J. McCloy.

Jim Root

[Robert Howard]

Let me drop a few thoughts here and attempt to open up the discussion a little further based upon some speculation generated from research that I have done.

First: "It is now apparent that the World War III pretext for a national security cover-up was built into the fabric of the plot to assassinate President Kennedy. The plot required that Oswald be maneuvered into place in Mexico City and his activities there carefully monitored, controlled, and, if necessary, embellished and choreographed."

I am led to agree with this statement for various reasons. Three thoughts on this:

A) A picture of a man reported to be Oswald was released, whom we know was not Oswald, perhaps providing a clear message to someone (or country) that they could be associated with the assassination.

I believe that it is possible that while in Mexico City, Oswald may have been provided with a cut out phone number to call and told to make a person to person collect call to "John Hurt" in Raleigh, North Carolina if he were to get into trouble. This may have resulted in motivating US Intelligence to rally behind and create a plan to eliminate Oswald after the assassination.

C) We know that both these events (false picture that was released and Raleigh call) in fact occured. I tend to agree that only the "Big Fish" would have been capable of these "maneuvers."

Second: "The person who designed this plot had to have access to all of the information on Oswald at CIA HQS. The person who designed this plot had to have the authority to alter how information on Oswald was kept at CIA HQS. The person who designed this plot had the authority to alter how information on Oswald was kept at CIA HQS. The person who designed this plot had to have access to project TUMBLEWEED, the sensitive joint agency operation against the KGB assassin, Valery Kosikov. The person who designed this plot had the authority to instigate a counterintelligence operation in the Cuban affairs staff (SAS) at CIA HQS. In my view, there is only one person whose hands fit into these gloves: James Jesus Angleton, Chief of CIA's Counterintelligence Staff.

I am led to disagree with the conclusion of this statement. My research points to a different person, a man that was involved in the creation of both the OSS and the CIA and the NSA. He is also a man that I can prove was associated with NSA linguist John Hurt and a man that was closely associated with Secret Intelligence (SI) head Whitney Shepardson. I have information that it was Whitney Shepardson, in June of 1959, who was meeting with and collecting information in association with Richard Helms (another former SI man) that centered on Stockhom, Sweden and Helsinki, Finland. While this collection of information was occuring Wilho Tikander, another former SI man, speculated that a very important operation was about to occur centered on Helsinki. Shepardson was a close associate of Demitri de Mohrenschildt (brother of George), John J. McCloy and John Grombach (the head of a shadowy organization known as "The Pond").

Third: "He ((Angelton) was the only one in the Counterintelligence Staff with enough authority to instigate a counterintelligence operation in the SAS against the FPCC."

I will be so bold as to suggest that it is my belief that a parallel organization to the CIA always existed that had "enough authority to instigate a couterintelligence operation" against any organization within or outside of the United States. While I believe that Angleton may well have been aware of the existance of the organization he was not the "Big Fish."

Forth: "Angleton and his molehunters had always held Oswald's files very close to the vest - from the time of the young Marine's defection in October 1959 and his offer to provide classified radar information to the Soviets. That offer had lit up the counterintelligence circuits in Washington, D.C. like a Christmas tree. Angleton was the only person who knew - except for perhaps one of his direct subordinates - both the Cuban and Soviet parts of Oswald's story. He was the only one in the Counterintelligence Staff with enough authority to instigate a counterintelligence operation in the SAS against the FPCC."

In my previous post on this thread I pointed out that both Angelton and Helms were involved in the mail opening sceme dirceted by the CIA. It must also be remembered that Nuclear Arms negotiator John J. McCloy was very concerned that the US would be forced into signing the Limited Test Ban Treaty at the Paris Summit (May 1960) that McCloy and others felt would be detrimental to the security of the United States. Oswald's defection to the Soviet Union and the downplaying of his 201 File, in perspective, suggests the possibility that the downing of Francis Gary Powers and the failure of the Paris Summit may have been an event that was manipulated by a very powerful force within US Intelligence. Adding to this speculation we find that Richard Helms, who would be managing Oswald's 201 File was working with Whitney Shepardson (friend of Demitri de Mohrenschildt) as he collected information about Helsinki, Finland in the later half of 1959. In the Dulles biography it is pointed out the Richard Helms maintained a "private" intelligence network. Since Helms had been part of SI (as was Shepardson) and SI had been created under the watchful eye of John J. McCloy during WWII we find an interesting network of people surround this Oswald guy.

Five months prior to the assassination of John F. Kennedy, John J. McCloy would engage in a dispute with the President and refused to negotiate the Limited Test Ban Treaty of 1963. After the death of JFK, McCloy would once again become the lead arms negotiator for the United States.

McCloy would also participate in the Warren Commission.....

1) Which did not provide information on Oswald's trip from London to Helsinki

2) Did not enter FBI Agent Hosty's third note (which provided information to US Intelligence on exactly where Lee Harvey Oswald was working prior to the planning of the motorcade route) into evidence and that note has never turned up on any CIA list of documents althouth Hosty's privious two notes went directly to the Office of Richard Helms!

3) Information on the Raleigh Call never made it into the Commission Report although the name of the person that the call was directed to matches the name of a man that McCloy quoted during discussion with President Truman dealing with the surrender of Japan and the need to use atomic weapons to end WWII. The two men assigned (indirectly) by the Warren Commission) to investigate Oswald's potential intelligence connection were in fact directly associated with NSA linguist John Hurt and on (Frank Rowlett) directly associated with John J. McCloy.

Jim Root

Well, as they used to say in the old day's "Capital, Capital." Very succinct and well articulated. I must admit, I was not aware that McCloy had refused to negotiate the 1963 Test Ban Treaty. Have you ever seen any internal memorandum between McCloy and JFK over the fallout over the disagreement?

Here is the link to the Newman Presentation I alluded to earlier.

Courtesy of JFK Lancer and Debra Conway

http://www.jfklancer.com/backes/newman/newman_1.html

John Newman is a very gifted researcher, I really wonder where the research community would be without his expertise.....

It is worth mentioning that in addition to Oswald & The CIA, he is also the author of JFK & Vietnam.

A book that does not recieve as much attention as the former, but is also a very intense book......

It also got a little bit of flak from the mainstream media, over certain issues raised in that work, I believe his suspicions about some of the activities taking place at the Honolulu Conference, or maybe I should say the fact that some of the documents associated with the Conference are still classified, at least the last time I looked. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why......

Thanks for your insights, Jim.....

[Jim Root]

Peter

Thank you for the kind words.

You asked:

"Jim, could you elaborate a bit more on your view of a 'parallel organization' to the CIA?"

On June 27, 1947 a secret meeting of the House Committee on Expenditures in the Executive Departments (there was no such thing as an intelligence oversight committee at that time) heard testimony from three people. The firs was the then Director of the Central Intelligence Group, Lt. Gen. Hoyt S. Vandenberg. His remarks contained this statement:

"The clandestine field, sir, is a very complicated one, as it is very difficult...I have spent days going through the ramifications of it. Roughly, the way it works is that you have an expert in the clandestine field, or as near an expert as the United States has, and who we can hire for the money that we can pay.

They go to a certain locality and live in that locality and build up an acquaintance and they know the politics and the intrigue that is going on in that nation. They pick a man, after very careful study with records back here, from what we know in G-2 (Army intelligence) and the Navy and State and from friends, and they start him out as a nucleus. He then builds a chain of people that he knows.

Then, we have to have another man picked, in whom we have full confidence, who builds a chain alongside, who is just watching him. Then you have to keep these two people and their reports, to make sure that this man is not giving you information and receiving pay from a foreign government. Then, this man who has established this is pushed out in front here, and he then has a contact back with what we call the letter box or the place through which we got this information; and the man who originally set up the net ostensibly has no connection with any person or any department of the government. That is what we term a 'cut-out';....if he gets in trouble, we wash our hands of it.......we wash our hands of him, and we say we know nothing about him.

That is a very rough description of a very difficult business."

It has been said that, "In this nervous and rambling statement, Vandenberg gave Congress a generic description (quite likely the most down-to-earth it would ever hear) of the intelligence collection process, including the parallel role of counterespionage." Peter Grose

At this time the Central Intelligence Group had no agents in the field, no authority to engage in any "Great Game." Collection in those early days was largely the preserve of shadowy freelancers under contract.

The second man to speak on this day was John Grombach who had been assigned the task, during WWII of organizing SI (Secrete Intelligence). We still do not have a totally clear understanding of all the ramification of this organization. But all the principal people that I named above were a part of it including Richard Helms. We do know that Grombach maintained his "contract organization" into the 1950's and I have documents (those mentioned above) that show that members/former members of this organization were meeting together and information was being provided to Richard Helms from this group as late as the second half of 1959.

The third and final speaker of that day was Allen Dulles.

We also know (and I have been in correspondence with a much published historian on this subject) that Herbert Yardley became a member of Grombach's organization. This is of particular interest (NSA employee John Hurt) because Yardley had ran the predecessor organization to William Friedman's team (of which Hurt and Frank Rowlett were original members of) which then became the NSA.

For instance Winston Scott was recruited into the OSS but became SI as a cryptologist which would place him under Grombach or Whitney Shepardson. I foud Morley's description of this particular part of Scott's entrance in the world of intelligence interesting because it places him within this same parallel group at least prior to his assignment to Mexico. One thing cannot be denied, Scott was familiar with the Lee Harvey Oswald and Whitney Shepardson’s friend Demitri de Mohrenschildt's brother George was perhaps Lee Harvey Oswald's closest friend in Dallas.

We have people watching Oswald that can be associated with Grombach's parallel/contract organization. We have members of that organization meeting together prior to Oswald's entry into the Soviet Union. We can tie Oswald's willingness to betray U-2 intelligence to the Soviets to the downing of the U-2 which doomed the Paris Summit, which John J. McCloy did not want to see happen!

If we are to believe the Warren Commission report in relationship to George de Mohrenschildt's conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald following the assassination attempt on Gen. Edwin Walker.....then this same group was aware of Oswald's willingness to kill and that he possessed a weapon capable of carrying out the deed.

The CIA psychological report provided to Counsel Bellin declared that if it would have been known that Oswald had attempted to assassinate Walker it would have been predictable to assume that he would kill the President. All that this group needed was to have the ability to divert the motorcade in such a way as to give Oswald an opportunity to accomplish the deed.

The withholding of Hosty's third note (with this perspective in mind) would allow us to use Bugliosi's own perspective that a persons willingness to withhold information that could be used against themselves is admissible as evidence of guilt (does not alone prove guilt but is evidence of guilt) in a crime.

Hosty's third note (Oswald work location) does not appear on any CIA documents list to this day!

And the final building along the motorcade route was where a man worked that was willing to kill the President.

Jim Root

Edited December 12, 2008 by Jim Root

[Jim Root]

Robert

You stated and asked:

"Well, as they used to say in the old day's "Capital, Capital." Very succinct and well articulated. I must admit, I was not aware that McCloy had refused to negotiate the 1963 Test Ban Treaty. Have you ever seen any internal memorandum between McCloy and JFK over the fallout over the disagreement?

A while back I initiated a thread asking who had access to the Kennedy records immediately following the assassination. The reason for my inquiry into that particular subject is because the answer to your question is NO! It is the lack of documentation between Kennedy and his lead arms negotiator anywhere, including within the Kennedy library that I find as intriguing as anything that we might speculate to have been in any correspondence between the two.

Please remember that after the funeral of JFK, Jackie Kennedy spoke with the Soviet representative and (to me at least) her statements about nuclear arms negotiations was on point to this particular line of reasoning!

McCloy does appear in the picture when the signing of this treaty occurred in the White House. But you can relate McCloy's letter to Walker and the flurry of interest in the movements of Lee Harvey Oswald by US intelligence agencies to McCloy's falling out with Kennedy. Coincidence perhaps but if all my threads are woven together the fabric shows that McCloy would have first used Oswald to sabotage the Paris Summit and would have him used again to eliminate an obstacle to the negotiation of a comprehensive nuclear treaty.

Jim Root

[Robert Howard]

Robert

You stated and asked:

"Well, as they used to say in the old day's "Capital, Capital." Very succinct and well articulated. I must admit, I was not aware that McCloy had refused to negotiate the 1963 Test Ban Treaty. Have you ever seen any internal memorandum between McCloy and JFK over the fallout over the disagreement?

A while back I initiated a thread asking who had access to the Kennedy records immediately following the assassination. The reason for my inquiry into that particular subject is because the answer to your question is NO! It is the lack of documentation between Kennedy and his lead arms negotiator anywhere, including within the Kennedy library that I find as intriguing as anything that we might speculate to have been in any correspondence between the two.

Please remember that after the funeral of JFK, Jackie Kennedy spoke with the Soviet representative and (to me at least) her statements about nuclear arms negotiations was on point to this particular line of reasoning!

McCloy does appear in the picture when the signing of this treaty occurred in the White House. But you can relate McCloy's letter to Walker and the flurry of interest in the movements of Lee Harvey Oswald by US intelligence agencies to McCloy's falling out with Kennedy. Coincidence perhaps but if all my threads are woven together the fabric shows that McCloy would have first used Oswald to sabotage the Paris Summit and would have him used again to eliminate an obstacle to the negotiation of a comprehensive nuclear treaty.

Jim Root

One of the things I really like about you Jim is the fact that you have constructed, even in this thread, what I consider to be something similar to what the really great JFK researchers, such as Peter Dale Scott, John Newman and other luminaries, a "peeling back of the onion."

My reaction to your last two posts, is to say that it is rather obvious in my opinion, that the Eisenhower Peace Summit was opposed by individuals in the United States government at some very high level. My personal view is that those who come to mind to me are James Angleton and Richard Nixon....Certainly mine is a purely speculative statement.....certainly McCloy can't be ruled out. The problem, I suppose is that I would not hold my breath for any type of confirmation of this speculative area to come from the remaining classified documents. But I am speaking pessimistically.

Regarding Grombach and the parallel organization to the CIA you referenced. All I can say is I am relatively certain we have both explored chronological timelines regarding various individuals in both the political and intelligence sphere, and no doubt have some similar perceptions regarding the same. For me personally, there are three areas that have fell under my scrutiny.

Individuals who were affiliated with the OSS, Office of Naval Intelligence and the State Department. Many politicians such as John Connally, John F Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson either were in the Navy or, as in Connally's case was the Secretary of the Navy before the assassination.....Just to mention one area. Then there are specific individuals like Robert Morris, Helliwell, Maheu, Roselli and even more obscurant is the fact that one of the higher ranking Dallas Police officials had worked in the FBI in Latin America before the formation of the CIA, but I can't recall his name. Getting older I guess.

Lastly, I would mention that if there was an area in which I have a lot of interest in that falls into unresolved areas peripheral to the assassination, it would be

different geographical areas around November 22, 1963 particularly the Paris CIA station, and Spain.......That the Paris CIA station should be of interest is a no-brainer consdidering the fact that the meetings between Rolando Cubela and CIA personnel regarding AMLASH.......But some seem to get a little confused when Spain comes up...Why Spain.....

To answer that question one only has to consider the following information, the following individuals haver definite links to Spain, either through factual information or rumors, such as one rumor that in April/May 1963 Jean Souetre had met E Howard Hunt in Spain. See The Man Who Knew Too Much, source Gilbert Lecavelier page 562, 786].

Regarding Spain......Albert Alexander Osborne, Charles Willoughby, Pedro del Valle and Arthur W A Cowan who died in Spain in 1964 under conditions not fully known, at least by myself to cite just four names....

If one is tempted to think that Spain has little relevance to the JFK Assassinatin consider the following information posted on a newsgroup some time ago regarding Pedro del Valle.

Pedro del Valle appeared on the surface to be a somewhat

unconventional military man turned super patriot who appealed to the

heritage of George Washington and the Founding Fathers. An examination

of his personal papers, however, provides a much more complex picture.

Although del Valle regularly denounced "big government" for limiting

individual freedom – even calling for the abolition of both the IRS

and the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) – he clearly admired

Mussolini's Italy. After the war del Valle maintained good ties with

Italy's "Black Prince" Junio Valerio Borghese, whom he had first met

during the Ethiopia campaign. A convicted war criminal, Borghese

became one of Italy's most powerful postwar far rightists as well as

the first president of Italy's neo-fascist Movimento Sociale Italiano

(MSI). Del Valle also argued that America should back Eastern

European governments-in-exile in order to encourage "so-called

‘fascist' groups" to build a new "underground" should the Soviet Union

overrun Europe militarily.

Del Valle was also close to Franco's Spain. In a 2/23/50 letter to

Nevada Senator Pat McCarran, del Valle even offered to become the

first U.S. Ambassador to Spain should America recognize Franco.

Through his good friend, the Madrid-based Marques de Prat y

Nantouillet, who headed a rightwing religious movement called Active

United Christians, del Valle met Franco in 1952. He returned to Spain

on other occasions, most notably in 1964 when he tried to help the

Marques put together an anti-communist "worldwide Christian movement"

with proposed financing from Arab nations and far right Texas

millionaires. During this visit, del Valle also met with another good

friend, General José Diaz Villegas, a member of the Spanish Army

general staff who had a special interest in Africa.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...68663c3cab5?hl=

Even though it is old information, I will close with this......

also from The Man Who Knew Too Much original edition pages 561-562

Russell also wrote......On a ten-day trip to Paris in 1982, among Fensterwald’s meetings was with Jean Claude Perez, former chief of the OAS’s intelligence branch. Perez confirmed that the OAS had dispatched a three-man team to try to assassinate de Gaulle in Mexico City in March 1964, and further, that the OAS had contact in New Orleans with an anti-Castro group.....Peter Dale Scott uncovered that, after deGaulle reached a truce with the OAS in early 1963, the French President helped arrange for its members to start going to other parts of the world. Some turned up in Latin America. At the same time, certain Cuban exiles have said they were transferred from CIA case officers to new handlers— some of them OAS veterans.

Russell cites the last information as a conversation between himself and Peter Dale Scott, January 16, 1981

Edited December 14, 2008 by Robert Howard

[Charles Drago]

My reaction to your last two posts, is to say that it is rather obvious in my opinion, that the Eisenhower Peace Summit was opposed by individuals in the United States government at some very high level.

We're almost there.

The Peace Summit was opposed by individuals in the United States and Soviet governments at very high levels -- and their Cold War masters.

[Robert Howard]

My reaction to your last two posts, is to say that it is rather obvious in my opinion, that the Eisenhower Peace Summit was opposed by individuals in the United States government at some very high level.

We're almost there.

The Peace Summit was opposed by individuals in the United States and Soviet governments at very high levels -- and their Cold War masters.

I have no doubt you are correct Charles, additionally if those find this thread interesting, I strongly suugest you observe the most recent update I have made to the thread on the WARE Group.....Especially to you Jim....

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13385

[Robert Howard]

My reaction to your last two posts, is to say that it is rather obvious in my opinion, that the Eisenhower Peace Summit was opposed by individuals in the United States government at some very high level.

We're almost there.

The Peace Summit was opposed by individuals in the United States and Soviet governments at very high levels -- and their Cold War masters.

I have no doubt you are correct Charles, additionally if those find this thread interesting, I strongly suugest you observe the most recent update I have made to the thread on the WARE Group.....Especially to you Jim....

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13385

Regarding Charles Drago's comments regarding mutual interests between officials of both the United States and the former Soviet Union in seeing the Peace Summit come to naught, led me to reflect on various interpretations of the Cold War relationship between the two superpowers. Anthony Sutton, who is noted as one of the first to write about the Yale/Skull and Bones fraternity, before it was a hot topic, also wrote a book that is virtually obscure in comparison, entitled

National Suicide: Military Aid to the Soviet Union - Arlington House 1974

While Sutton had his critics in mainstream media circles as a conspiracy theorist in regards to both Skull and Bones and the US/USSR exchange of technology over the 20th century, conversely the argument holds true that his treatise on the latter cites not only declassified documents, but examines various interpretations of this relationship, and in effect, withholds making any rush to judgment as to the deeper aspects of same......While some might chose to focus on the Armand Hammer, Averill Harriman's et cetera in pointing out a conspiratorial interpretation of these dynamics, personally I chose to focus on the factual information cited as adding and providing more information to the historical record of that time period.

One passage in Sutton's book states, "Lloyd Mallan wrote Russia and the Big Red Lie in 1958, after an almost unrestricted 14,000 mile trip through Russia to visit thirty-eight Soviet scientists. He took 6,000 photographs. It was Mallan who first drew attention to the Soviet practice of illustrating space-program press releases with photographs from the American trade and scientific press. The Remington Rand Univac computer was used in the fifties to illustrate an article in Red Star on the Soviet computer program-- the captions were translated into Russian."

page 196, Anthony Sutton National Suicide: Military Aid to the Soviet Union - Arlington House 1974.

So, after Sutton wrote his book in 1974, eighteen years later in 1992, Dick Russell released The Man Who Knew Too Much.

In that book, Dick Russell mentions an interview he did with Forrest Sawyer regarding the then-release of the KGB Oswald file, a event that seemed to many to have all the earmarks of a information redaction job regarding any real controversial passages......

Dick Russell would write..."In 1991 when Nightline scored a TV news coup by getting access to the Soviet’s Oswald file, at first KGB officials indicated they were willing simply to turn over the entire dossier to correspondent Forrest Sawyer. Then shortly before the hour-long special was to air on November 22, the KGB got cold feet. Sawyer was permitted to look at a portion of the faded material and to interview a few former acquaintances of Oswald. The Oswald that came across was, in nightline anchor Ted Koppel’s words was that of “an unstable, incompetent dolt.” But Sawyer, in a phone conversation we had two months after the broadcast. expressed some reservations. “I had no reason to believe they had suddenly manufactured documents for me to look at,” Sawyer told me. “But maybe they had in 1964, when nobody dreamed the KGB files would ever see the light of day. I think what I saw was absolutely real, but they could have and probably did launder them in the past. It’s not at all believable to me that they never debriefed Oswald.”

Sawyer, a few sentences later stated to Dick Russell....”These days, you can bet that a Russian intelligence agency will not put out anything that would upset the CIA.”

pages 222-223, The Man Who Knew Too Much - Dick Russell Carroll & Graf Publishers 1992.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Robert Howard

[Mark Knight]

In the late '60's/early '70's, I had a friend who espoused a theory that, as he expressed it then, "The United States owns Russia." Or, expressed in more detail, the USSR/Big Red Bogeyman owed its very existence to certain elements of the US government...and that elements of the US government actively supported the continued existence of the "Iron Curtain." His theory was that, in order for the defense industries to operate at anything approaching full employment, the US had to have a constant military threat...even if it was only a paper tiger [or, more appropriately, a paper bear].

His theory went on [and on], to the conclusion that, if the USSR ever failed--and the way they practiced communism, that was extremely likely--the US would have to manufacture another equally terrifying nemesis...for example, radical Islamists.

From the direction this thread is going, I'm starting to believe that, rather than being the crackpot we thought he was, my friend may have actually been a genius...especially for figuring this stuff out in the 1960's time frame he did.