Is there a toxicologist in the house? Re: Sen Tim Johnson

[Myra Bronstein]

Exhibit A:

" Wednesday, December 13

POSTED: 11:13 p.m. EST, December 13, 2006

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Sen. Tim Johnson of South Dakota was undergoing brain surgery Wednesday night at George Washington University Hospital after being hospitalized earlier in the day due to stroke-like symptoms, two Democratic sources familiar with his condition told CNN.

Johnson, 59, was taken to the hospital Wednesday morning after he appeared to suffer stroke-like symptoms, although a spokeswoman for the senator said subsequent evaluation showed he did not suffer a stroke or a heart attack. Staffers told CNN Johnson was conscious when he was transported to the hospital."

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file.../w162040S94.DTL

"Democrats won a 51-49 majority in the November election. South Dakota's governor, who would appoint any temporary replacement, is a Republican."

...

If the Senate is split 50-50, the vice president breaks ties. That is Republican Dick Cheney at present."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061213/ap_on_go_co/johnson

Exhibit B:

"He said, "Did you want to pull off the perfect murder?" I said, "How would that be, Dave?" He said, "Well, you would need - he had a tendency to get a chalkboard or piece of paper and he began to write down these chemical equations which I don't know if they were accurate or truthful or not--C-6, H-12, you know, and all these other letters and I don't know if they even work. He said, "Now get this. What this does is you either ingest or inject it." He says, "if you ingest it over a period of time, it does damage and if you inject it, it will do it rather quickly. He said the person then dies and he says the chemicals will break down in the system. He says, "What does he die of?" "He dies of an aneurysm in the brain." I said, "what is an aneurysm, Dave?"

And Dave said, "That's where you have an artery and it explodes and fills the brain. It's weak wall in the artery. It causes the weak wall. I said it would show up in the autopsy. He (Dave) said, "No, after 72 hours, the chemical will have broken down and it would appear to be normal unless you have it injected and they would find a hole for an injection" "If it was ingested", he said, "it would come out as an aneurysm. And he says the person would look like he dies of natural causes." I said to Russo, "isn't that something." "On his death certificate", Perry said, "died of stroke brought on by aneurysm of the brain.

" Flooding the brain, the cranial wall, you know, the chamber" "His death", I asked Russo, "happened not long before it hit the papers that he was involved in the Garrison Case, right?" "Yeah", Russo said, "and so Garrison then quickly called Dr. Cheda, who was a Coroner and asked for a second autopsy. They went through elaborate toxicology tests that were state of the art in 1963. Not exactly the state of the art in 1993", Perry said. "So they did another autopsy. And it didn't show anything. So officially, he dies of natural causes."

http://www.jfklancer.com/Perry4.html

I think the tie in with President Kenendy's murder, and the general focus of this forum, is obvious.

[Myra Bronstein]

I rather think we're being desensitized to the possibility, or likelyhood, that the conveniently Rethuglican governor of SD will appoint a replacement, GOP, senator. The mockingbirds have blown right past reporting on the Senator's condition, and is already telling us what will happen next. So when it happens it won't spook the herd?

"Sen. Tim Johnson, D-South Dakota, underwent brain surgery early today at George Washington University Hospital after suffering stroke-like symptoms, two Democratic sources familiar with his condition told CNN. Should Johnson not be able to complete his term, which ends in 2008, South Dakota Gov. Mike Rounds, a Republican, could appoint his replacement -- which could shift the balance of power in the Senate."

http://www.cnn.com/

Ah, watching history unfold. It's much like watching history in retrospect.

[Len Colby]

Even I’m a bit suspicious over the good senator’s sudden illness. Hopefully he’ll recover. If he is incapacitated but survives the Dems could try retaining control by having him continue nominally as senator. According to CNN, “Although the issue of incapacitation is not spelled out in state law, South Dakota Secretary of State Chris Nelson said he believes there would be "precedent at the federal level." ”*.There is a precedent for this according to the NY Times, “According to information from the Senate historian cited on CQ.com, at least nine senators have taken extended absences from the Senate for health reasons since 1942. Robert F. Wagner, Democrat of New York, was unable to attend any sessions of the 80th or 81st Congress from 1947 to 1949 because of a heart ailment.”** Curiously enough Wagner’s appointed successor was John Foster Dulles. Such a move would not be popular politically but would leave the senate split 50 - 49.

* http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/12/14/joh....ill/index.html

** http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/14/washingt...artner=homepage the CQ article is for paid subscribers only

[John Simkin]

Another old trick is to put a stong 'knock-out' agent with DSMO on a car steering wheel....it will soak in through the skin and after a short while the driver will be so sleepy they will surely have an accident...looking natural. This agent is not detectable. They usually do this at night and when the person will be on mountain road etc...to add 'realism' - Karen Silkwood was likely killed via this method IMO...and many others. This can be done with plane pilots also. When Johnson said about 'a murder incorporated' the only thing he got 'wrong' was limiting it to the Carribbean....it was worldwide and often at home.

Mac Wallace was also probably killed in this way.

[Jack White]

Other mysterious one-car one-driver "accidental" deaths:

Witness Lee Bowers, ran into bridge abutment in daylight, no witnesses

Researcher Larry Ray Harris, "fell asleep at wheel" returning home from seeing mother, car ran off road

Researcher Larry Howard, brain stroke while driving, but no car crash, car just came to a stop in a field

LHO cab driver William Whaley, first Dallas cab driver to die in crash while on duty, details not remembered

Others I don't recall at the moment.

Jack

Edited December 14, 2006 by Jack White

[JL Allen]

It's astounding that such a circumstance could even exist in the continuously heralded "greatest country in the world" - that the national upset over the mind-boggling ineptitude concerning the prosecution of this bloody mess over the last few years - and the culmination of that repulsiveness which was made plain in the recent election and formed into a demand by citizens for a cessation of the madness - could all possibly be overturned and negated by the governor of South Dakota? We have allowed too much pure crap to be written into our laws. If the state elected a Democrat to represent them - he should be replaced by a Democrat. He's a governor - not "Lord of All He Surveys". To allow a situation where one man from a small state can repudiate the expressed will of the entire nation over a technicality is completely ludicrous - it's not sane.

Edited December 15, 2006 by JL Allen

[Greg Parker]

"Most people with neurological AVMs [Arteriovenous Malformations] experience few, if any, significant symptoms, and the malformations tend to be discovered only incidentally, usually either at autopsy or during treatment for an unrelated disorder. But for about 12 percent of the affected population (about 36,000 of the estimated 300,000 Americans with AVMs), these abnormalities cause symptoms that vary greatly in severity. For a small fraction of the individuals within this group, such symptoms are severe enough to become debilitating or even life-threatening. Each year about 1 percent of those with AVMs will die as a direct result of the AVM."

"Symptoms caused by AVMs can appear at any age, but because these abnormalities tend to result from a slow buildup of neurological damage over time they are most often noticed when people are in their twenties, thirties, or forties. If AVMs do not become symptomatic by the time people reach their late forties or early fifties, they tend to remain stable and rarely produce symptoms."

I believe Johnson is in his late 50s? If so, he has to be one unlucky guy... and I think that really is all there is to it. The diagnosis itself rules out foul play on the basis that not even the CIA could replicate a congenital disorder. The only conspiratorial spin that could now be levelled is that the doctors are lying about the diagnosis.

A more likely case of the CIA bumping off a senator happened in fact, in Australia in 1975. The progressive Labour Party then held power, with Gough Whitlam as Prime Minister. The Senate however, was on a knife's edge, with the balance being tipped in favour of the conservative party in June when a Labour Senator named Bert Milliner died of a "massive heart attack" during a late night senate sitting. Convention held that the state replacing the senator would fill the vacancy with a member of the same party. This convention was broken by the conservative Queensland Premiere who sent a member of his own party. The Senate, now under the control of the conservatives, blocked the supply of money for government business. This manufactured crisis was then "overcome" by the Governor General who, by tradition, has only a ceremonial role, but who, on this occasion, used constitutional powers few knew he had by sacking the Whitlam government, and installing the conservative party as a "caretaker" government while new elections were held. Whitlam, with the full fury of the media against him, never stood a chance. The CIA has long been suspected in engineering this bloodless coup, with the book and subsequent movie, "The Falcon and the Snowman", providing confirmation. Bottom line: without the "massive heart attack" - the coup could not have happened.

After the dust settled, the Labour Party was taken over by its Right Wing faction. In maintaining that leadership over the years, it has become less and less distinguishable from the Conservatives.

In his last speech, Whitlam urged his supporters to "maintain the rage". Well, at least some of us have.

In 1977, a constitutional amendment proposed by the conservative Fraser government was carried at a referendum which requires that Senate vacancies be filled by members from the same party or political group as the departed senator.

[Myra Bronstein]

It's astounding that such a circumstance could even exist in the continuously heralded "greatest country in the world" - that the national upset over the mind-boggling ineptitude concerning the prosecution of this bloody mess over the last few years - and the culmination of that repulsiveness which was made plain in the recent election and formed into a demand by citizens for a cessation of the madness - could all possibly be overturned and negated by the governor of South Dakota? We have allowed too much pure crap to be written into our laws. If the state elected a Democrat to represent them - he should be replaced by a Democrat. He's a governor - not "Lord of All He Surveys". To allow a situation where one man from a small state can repudiate the expressed will of the entire nation over a technicality is completely ludicrous - it's not sane.

Really good point JL.

There are so many provisions to bypass the people's will...

[John Dolva]

"A more likely case of the CIA bumping off a senator happened in fact, in Australia in 1975. The progressive Labour Party then held power, with Gough Whitlam as Prime Minister. The Senate however, was on a knife's edge, with the balance being tipped in favour of the conservative party in June when a Labour Senator named Bert Milliner died of a "massive heart attack" during a late night senate sitting. Convention held that the state replacing the senator would fill the vacancy with a member of the same party. This convention was broken by the conservative Queensland Premiere who sent a member of his own party. The Senate, now under the control of the conservatives, blocked the supply of money for government business. This manufactured crisis was then "overcome" by the Governor General who, by tradition, has only a ceremonial role, but who, on this occasion, used constitutional powers few knew he had by sacking the Whitlam government, and installing the conservative party as a "caretaker" government while new elections were held. Whitlam, with the full fury of the media against him, never stood a chance."

I remember these events clearly. The replacement from Queensland was a thoroughly dissolute dingbat (a bit like the Governor General). One wonders how exactly they may have gotten to where they were so that they could fulfill the devastating roles they played. After, they were largely abandoned and forgotten. I remember that when the dismissal happened, a massive groundswell arose from the working class, and to keep it in check, leaders like Hawke got out there and hence the 'maintain your rage till election time' theme. I think that led to the ALP's demise. Possibly a country wide 'show your rage now' could have been more effective in reversing this coup.

EDIT:: I always forget about Hayden. He was kind of 'bland'. But I wonder about the part he played.

Edited December 16, 2006 by John Dolva

[Len Colby]

I rather think we're being desensitized to the possibility, or likelyhood, that the conveniently Rethuglican governor of SD will appoint a replacement, GOP, senator. The mockingbirds have blown right past reporting on the Senator's condition, and is already telling us what will happen next. So when it happens it won't spook the herd?

"Sen. Tim Johnson, D-South Dakota, underwent brain surgery early today at George Washington University Hospital after suffering stroke-like symptoms, two Democratic sources familiar with his condition told CNN. Should Johnson not be able to complete his term, which ends in 2008, South Dakota Gov. Mike Rounds, a Republican, could appoint his replacement -- which could shift the balance of power in the Senate."

http://www.cnn.com/

Ah, watching history unfold. It's much like watching history in retrospect.

How would you expect them to have reported the story differently if they weren’t “in on it”?

It's astounding that such a circumstance could even exist in the continuously heralded "greatest country in the world" - that the national upset over the mind-boggling ineptitude concerning the prosecution of this bloody mess over the last few years - and the culmination of that repulsiveness which was made plain in the recent election and formed into a demand by citizens for a cessation of the madness - could all possibly be overturned and negated by the governor of South Dakota? We have allowed too much pure crap to be written into our laws. If the state elected a Democrat to represent them - he should be replaced by a Democrat. He's a governor - not "Lord of All He Surveys". To allow a situation where one man from a small state can repudiate the expressed will of the entire nation over a technicality is completely ludicrous - it's not sane.

Really good point JL.

There are so many provisions to bypass the people's will...

The rule of course doesn't inherently favor either party. Let’s not forget that the governor was elected by the people of his state. Would anyone here object if the situation were reversed? Also it's not accurate to say the governor could "repudiate the expressed will of the entire nation" Almost half of America's voters were misguided enough to vote Republican. What should happen in a case when due to death, resignation or removal a house or senate seat becomes vacant? In Brazil they have a better system, every senator is elected with 2 (or is it 3?) designated successors. This better preserves the will of the people but I believe would require an amendment in the US. In Alaska the governor is now prohibited from filling vacant seats. They changed the law after a senator was elected governor and named his own daughter to succeed him. The move was so unpopular that he came in third place with only 19% of the vote in the next GOP primary*. Apparently two other states don’t allow the governor to fill vacancies. Does anybody know how the vacancies would be filled in those states? I’m also curious what happens in situations like this in other countries.

Len

*This is AFAIK unprecedented, does anyone know of any other cases of an incumbent loosing so humiliatingly in a primary?

Edited December 16, 2006 by Len Colby

[Myra Bronstein]

I rather think we're being desensitized to the possibility, or likelyhood, that the conveniently Rethuglican governor of SD will appoint a replacement, GOP, senator. The mockingbirds have blown right past reporting on the Senator's condition, and is already telling us what will happen next. So when it happens it won't spook the herd?

"Sen. Tim Johnson, D-South Dakota, underwent brain surgery early today at George Washington University Hospital after suffering stroke-like symptoms, two Democratic sources familiar with his condition told CNN. Should Johnson not be able to complete his term, which ends in 2008, South Dakota Gov. Mike Rounds, a Republican, could appoint his replacement -- which could shift the balance of power in the Senate."

http://www.cnn.com/

Ah, watching history unfold. It's much like watching history in retrospect.

How would you expect them to have reported the story differently if they weren’t “in on it”?

I would think that they could refrain from talking about the senator's replacement while he was in surgery. They were in way to much of a hurry to write him off. Perhaps they could focus on the man's health and prognosis, at least for the first day, before they brush him aside.

(And just so there's no confusion, I didn't use the term "in on it.")

...

I believe Johnson is in his late 50s? If so, he has to be one unlucky guy... and I think that really is all there is to it. The diagnosis itself rules out foul play on the basis that not even the CIA could replicate a congenital disorder. The only conspiratorial spin that could now be levelled is that the doctors are lying about the diagnosis.

...

Thanks Greg, I was hoping you'd weigh in on this.

[Pat Speer]

If memory serves, in the 1950's, between 1953 and 1956, NINE senators died in office. Several of these were replaced by governors of a different party with senators from a different party. A number of these deaths were suspicious. As a result of these deaths, the contol of the senate changed hands three or four times. At one point during this period JFK was deathly ill on his back. Nixon is purported to have sent word that should there be a tie vote, and his vote as veep be the tie-breaker, he wouldn't take advantage of JFK's illness and vote any way different than JFK. If this is true, it was Nixon at his best. Anyhow, the net result of all these deaths was that another JOHNSON came to power--LBJ. And then he had a heart attack and almost lost it all. Since that time, only a handful of senators have died in office, most by accidents of one kind or another. It makes me wonder if there wasn't some curare in the drinking water up on Capitol Hill.