All Activity

If Seth Kantor was an FBI asset, why would he even testify that he saw Jack Ruby at Parkland Hospital? While he had published his siting shortly after the assassination and it had to be addressed, he could have simply been more equivocal in his testimony. And why did he continue to insist emphatically that he saw Ruby at Parkland?

Kantor "worked for the murderers ... scheming and murdering before any of us were born... ?" That's a rather serious charge there Richard. Would you care to say why you think Kantor was involved in the assassination of Kennedy? Reasons for your belief?

The material should not be new to you as it has been presented here by me over a month ago, repeatedly. There's more complexity than you acknowledge about what Powers says was the cause of his shoot-down, and most of it has nothing to do with Oswald, or whatever variant you claim of his existed where and when. First, the shoot-down was the result, according to most analyses, of the use of a proximity-fuse by the Soviets -- a technology which the Rosenbergs had given over. (That has significance with respect to Elizabeth Bentley, of course.) Second, there is the issue of Popov's claim that a mole in the U-2 program had given the Soviets tech details about the plane. We can discuss likely candidates for that, should you wish. Third, the history of Powers and what he said and what he was allowed to say after he came back to the US is highly detailed and any meaningful discussion would require getting into the complexities of that. The whole matter would carry on until about 1971 in fact. In short, the Kennedys were most concerned about what Powers might say after he got back and Robert Kennedy and John McMahon went to significant lengths to ensure that his statements were tightly controlled. McMahon had debriefed him, along with Golitsyn and Nosenko, and there is reason to believe that McMahon was "outed" by Powers in his interrogation by the Soviets in Moscow. Also, in addition to Oswald, Powers also pointed to NSA defectors as being responsible at least in part for the shoot-down. There's a lot more here to analyze and discuss; no work -- including John Newman's recent -- even comes close to approaching all the ins and outs in sufficient detail.

Perhaps you could direct me to where "we argue about the detail of whether LHO was being dangled in a mole hunt." That has actually, so far as I am aware, not been a significant topic of discussion within the context of the Kennedy assassination over the course of the 60+ year history. And it's not obvious he was a spy working for U.S. intelligence, no matter how many times you repeat that claim. It's not clear who he thinks he works for, who he in fact works for, who is running him, if anyone at all. Perhaps it would be helpful to acknowledge the basic fact of mole penetrations: they are intended to get the host to do things contrary to their interest, things which they would not normally do. Your dissatisfaction with the Warren Commission's explanation as to whether the state department was justified or not in 1963 in issuing him a passport skips right past that.

Those are really good points, Joe. Personally, I feel facial recognition is an area where at some point AI could come into its own as a helpful tool for JFKA researchers. I'm also heartened to read that people like Jefferson Morley are open to using AI and even though initial results have been disappointing they remain open-minded about its potential.

Here is a write up on Kantor on Sparticus..https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKkantorS.htm

Interesting that this should come up, because I’ve always wondered why we argue about the detail of whether LHO was being dangled in a mole hunt and ignore the OBVIOUS evidence that Oswald was a spy working for U.S. intelligence. As I’ve said before, even the cover story for the 1959 “defection” shows Oswald was a spy. But the circumstances around the 1963 passport is just more evidence that he worked for U.S. intelligence. On June 24, 1963, Russian-speaking Lee HARVEY Oswald (the same LHO who “defected” to Russia in 1959) appeared at the U.S. Passport Office in New Orleans and applied for a passport. The new passport was issued the very next day, despite the fact Oswald indicated on the application he was going to visit the USSR and then-Communist Poland. Sheesh. This obvious traitor, who should have already been prosecuted, was given the OK by State Department to possibly defect again! CLICK HERE to see the application and, in the document at the upper right, the evidence that Oswald stated he would, again, go to the USSR. Starting on page 773, the Warren Report includes an elaborate discussion of why the State Department simply HAD to issue Oswald a new passport in 1963, and I don’t believe a word of it. No doubt some people will say they do believe it, but I doubt anyone critical of the Warren findings would be so sanguine.

I've read the book "Admitted Assassin" and thought Edwards and Shaw did an excellent job. A few areas I might disagree but they provide documentation throughout.

Matt, Thanks for the above. This is interesting material, much of which is new to me. One thing on the U-2 flights…. A number of people (including Francis Gary Powers, if memory serves) said they believed Oswald had something to do with the shoot down. But this is actually just one of several examples of the real genius of the Oswald Project. Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald was never stationed in the radar bubble near the U-2 facilities in Japan. It was actually American-born LEE Harvey Oswald who was there. In 1995, John Armstrong interviewed Zack Stout, who was in the radar bubble at Atsugi with LHO. John asked Zack Stout if Oswald ever spoke Russian around him and he answered: "Where do people come up with these stupid ideas? That's ridiculous. No, he never spoke Russian or had a Russian book or a Russian newspaper. If he had any of those things, all of us would have known about it." It was Lee HARVEY Oswald who spoke Russian while in the Marines, not the LHO who served in the radar bubble.

Can you imagine if a reputable Facial Recognition analysis entity actually came up with a 99% accurate match regards any of the JFKA photos of possible nefarious characters taken in places like Dealey Plaza on 11,22,1963, Oswald's leaflet passing in New Orleans in August of 1963, or in the RFK primary crowd in the Los Angeles Ambassador Hotel the evening of June 6th, 1968? If Rip Roberston was in Dealey Plaza watching JFK's limo go past, if Bill Shelley was standing near Oswald in front of the N.O. Trade Mart in August of 1963, or if some high level intel covert team member was in the RFK crowd at the Ambassador Hotel, etc. etc., this would be a major revelation game changer in the least. Maybe we could find out the identity of the dark complexion man seated next to the Umbrella man on the grassy knoll curb just after JFK was shot? Or the odd gait and suit dressed man walking through the 3 tramps perp march line in front of the TXSBD building an hour after the JFK hit? How about running a tracking trace on facial photos of Lee Oswald and Jack Ruby themselves? Maybe even Roscoe White? Eventually someone is going to try this new and much more advanced technology in the JFKA and RFKA research realm. We have to.

You’re still repeating this obvious falsehood? Are you legally blind, cause that’s the only way someone would not have been able to see if the killer was leaning on the car from Markham’s position. This is clearly illustrated in CE525, a photo taken from Markham’s position. As I say in the thread linked below, I encourage everyone to look at CE525 and say with a straight face that you couldn’t tell if someone was leaning down and resting their hands on the window ledge from that spot. Keep in mind it was broad daylight.

Glad to see positive reaction to Dr. Mantik's work. (I still believe JFK received 3 bullets in the head on 11/22/63)

Interesting...

The following article written by Allan Eaglesham (who I have seen @James DiEugenio write highly of) is what I had believed to be a solution for the autopsy photograph landmarks (such as the wall telephone, tiles and head stirrup) that Bethesda techs Jim Jenkins and Paul O'Connor (as well as others) had said they did not recognize as being part of the Bethesda morgue they had worked in, but after seeing the LaPlante and Russo podcast, I'm not so sure. The article is on @Allan Eaglesham's website (the link for which is provided below), but it is rather aged and no longer has the autopsy photographs of William Pitzer attached to it (and for some reason the letter "s" is missing throughout the original, which I have corrected in the version below). 'Where Were the JFK Autopsy Photographs Taken?' --by Allan Eaglesham (Originally published in JFK/Deep Politics Quarterly XI(2) 30-36 January 2006) https://manuscriptservice.com/AutopsyRoom Floor Tiles The tiling on the autopsy room floor is visible in Figure 2 and 3, and in an overall shot of LCDR Pitzer's body on the table, part of the edge of which is shown in Figure 6. similarity in the tiling is striking. Although it is impossible to determine whether tile size is the same in Figure 3 and 6, it appears that they are of similar dimension. It is likely that the photograph shown in Figure 2 was taken in the same room as that in Figure 6. A controversial aspect of the aftermath of the Kennedy assassination lies with the available photographs that were purportedly taken before and during the autopsy at the Bethesda Naval Hospital (BNH), Maryland. My objective here is not to revisit that controversy -- the degree to which the wounds in the photographs match the memories of those who witnessed the autopsy and of those who attended the president at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas -- but rather to address just one component of it: were the photographs taken in the BNH morgue? Author Harrison E. Livingstone's description of the left-profile photograph (Figure 1) in High Treason 2 (Carroll & Graf, New York, 1992) include: "Note the vertical grout lines between the tile where the hair meets the forehead. The tiles to the left side of it are not full-size, as though this were a composite photograph. The autopsy crew says there was no phone at that position on the wall alongside the table." (emphasis added) 📷Figure 1 A meeting in Dallas organized by Mr. Livingstone in 1991 was attended by autopsy technician Paul O'Connor and James Jenkins and photographer Floyd Riebe. Part of the discussion is described in High Treason 2 as follows [1]: "There was a moment of quiet as the men studied the autopsy photographs. Then the bomb exploded: 'This doesn't even look like the morgue!' Paul said. 'What?' I exclaimed. 'That's true,' Jenkins said. 'It doesn't look like the morgue [at Bethesda].' Floyd Riebe said, 'No, I just noticed the floor.' 'What did the floor look like?' 'Well it was similar in design, but it was white!' The floor at Bethesda was stone tile. It was put in there so it would last for years.' 'What color was it?' 'It was white and black.' 'This area does not exist in that morgue,' Jenkins said. 'Does not!' Paul said. 'We have no wooden structure in the morgue.' 'The Bethesda floor had the small dots,' Floyd said. We saw them in the pictures. 'We didn't have anything wooden in there,' Paul said. 'It does not look like the morgue,' Jenkins said." This exchange is summarized by Livingstone as follows[2]: "All insist that the 'Death-stare' picture of the president (Figure 2) was not taken in the morgue at Bethesda." (emphasis added) 📷Figure 2. Yet, I do not deduce from the above discussion that there was consensus that the floor looks wrong. And the presence of the wooden structure (Figure 3)-- apparently a movable object -- does not preclude the possibility that the photograph was taken in the Bethesda morgue. 📷Figure 3. At the meeting in Dallas, O'Connor and Jenkins also stated that they had no recollection of the metal head-brace visible in some of the autopsy photographs (see Figure 1); rather, a block was placed under the neck to support the head. Lack of recognition of the head-brace was repeated by O'Connor and Jenkins in interviews with William Law in the late 1990s [3,4]. In a discussion in his book Bloody Treason (Laurel, Rancho Santa Fe, CA, 1997), of the photograph in Figure 1, Noel Twyman states [5]: "Paul O'Connor told me that the metal head rest...was not in use at the Bethesda autopsy room... [Figure 2] shows a wooden structure... According to O'Connor, no such structure was present at the Bethesda autopsy room during the autopsy. This is evidence that the president's body was intercepted before it arrived at Bethesda and, during that time, [Figure 1] and other photos were taken." (emphasis added) New Photograph The obvious problem is that judgment of the appearance of the autopsy room in the available photographs of President Kennedy's body is filtered through decades of human memory. No other photographs have been unearthed that show the autopsy room as it was in 1963. Furthermore, that part of the National Naval Medical Center (NNMC) has been refurbished and the morgue is now in a different location. However, photographs taken at the autopsy on the body of Lieutenant Commander William B. Pitzer (WBP) -- who died at the NNMC on October 29, 1966 -- have become available* [6], some of which show details of the autopsy room. (*Copies of the WBP autopsy photographs in the author's possession do not show the face or head of the deceased.) Wall Telephone One of the photographs of LCDR Pitzer's body is a left-profile close-up that reveals detail, albeit blurred, of the wall behind (Figure 4). Close examination of the Kennedy left-profile photograph (Figure 1) shows that Mr. Livingstone misinterpreted the different tile sizes. Tile-size differences resulted not from photographic fakery but from the fact that they were on a support column (Figure 1, inset). The right-hand edge of the column is visible in Figure 4 (see "column corner"), casting a shadow on the wall to the rear. The corner of the back wall at a junction with a passage to an adjacent room (top left of Figure 1) is also visible in Figure 4 ("corner"), and, as in Figure 1, the base of the telephone slightly overlaps the top edge of the wall tiles. 📷Figure 4. When the WBP photograph is laid over the JFK photographs such that the telephones are the same width (Figure 5), the wall corner at the passage to the adjacent room lines up as do the right-hand edge of the support columns. This is evidence that the photographs shown in Figures 1 and 4 were taken in the same room. 📷Figure 5. 📷Figure 6. Metal Head-Brace The picture from which Figure 6 was cropped -- an overall view of the body taken at the beginning of the WBP autopsy -- also shows a metal head-brace similar to that in Figure 1 (see Figure 7). It was removed for subsequent close-up picture of LCDR Pitzer's body; the brace is absent but the attachment fixture on the autopsy table is visible in another photograph (Figure 8), and is similar to that in Figure 1. 📷Figure 7. 📷Figure 8. Autopsy Table The JFK back-of-the-head photograph in Figure 9 shows what may be a blood spot or a drainage hole on or in the surface of the autopsy table (black arrow). The autopsy table visible in a WBP photograph (Figure 10, left and bottom right) shows that the table surface comprised removable stainless-steel plates that had spaced drainage holes. By lining up the "spot" in Figure 9 with a drainage hole, the distance to the edge of the autopsy table is approximately the same in both photographs (Figure 10, top right v. bottom right). A gap between the stainless-steel plate is visible in Figure 9 (white arrow). The photographs appear to be mutually consistent, and may show the same autopsy table. 📷Figure 9. 📷Figure 10. Location of the Pitzer Photographs The WBP autopsy report is typed on AUTOPSY PROTOCOL standard Form 503, which doesn't have an entry for location, possibly because it was simplified to have occurred at the NNMC. Two sources of documentary evidence tend to confirm that the autopsy on LCDR Pitzer's body took place at the Naval Hospital, NNMC, Bethesda, MD. In an FBI 302 report, the duty doctor (interviewed October 29, 1966, the day of LCDR Pitzer's death) is quoted as stating that the autopsy would be at the "National Naval Medical Center" on the morning of October 30 (Figure 11), and an investigation report by the Montgomery County Deputy Medical Examiner John G. Ball, dated October 29, 1966, states that the autopsy would take place at "Bethesda Naval Hospt." on October 30 (Figure 12). 📷Figure 11. 📷Figure 12. However, one of the WBP autopsy photographs caused me to question whether it was taken in the Bethesda morgue. With reference to the cadaver, it has a point-of-view similar to that in Figure 2, but shows more of the torso. In the background, vertical lines are visible, the nature of which was unclear. Lightening the photographs revealed that the vertical lines were bars of a barrier or railing (Figure 13). I consulted a "view from the gallery" sketch of the BNH autopsy room made by Harold Rydberg [7] and, indeed, it includes such a barrier (Figure 14). Although his sketch shows a single horizontal bar, Mr. Rydberg recently told me that it "could have had vertical bars." 📷Figure 13. 📷Figure14. William Law contacted Paul O'Connor and James Jenkins, seeking their recollection of any barrier. They agreed with Mr. Rydberg that one was situated in front of the gallery. Mr. O'Connor stated that it had no internal bars and Mr. Jenkins stated that the internal bars were vertical. I interpret their unanimity on the presence of a barrier to be consistent with what is seen in the Pitzer photographs. Furthermore, similar steps to the gallery are seen in Figure 2 and 13 (see Figure 15). 📷Figure 15. Conclusions The information presented indicates that the Kennedy-autopsy photographs shown in Figures 1, 2 and 9 were taken in the morgue at the Bethesda Naval hospital, National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, MD. This does not preclude the possibility that the president's body was intercepted before it arrived at the Bethesda morgue; however, the case for interception should now be appraised on evidence other than the appearance of the autopsy room in Figures 1, 2 and 9. The presence of the wooden object (Figure 3) and of the metal head-brace (Figures 2 and 9) do not exclude the possibility that these photographs were taken at the Naval Hospital. Paul O'Connor' and Jim Jenkins's lack of recollection of these objects in the autopsy room during the evening of 11/22/63 raises a different question: when were these photographs taken in the Bethesda morgue? In a 1998 interview with William Law, technician Jerrol Custer said that the wooden object is the base of the portable machine with which he X-rayed the president's body [8]. Furthermore, Custer stated that the metal head-brace was removed prior to his taking X-rays [9]. This suggests that the wooden object and the metal head-brace were present early in the proceedings and both were removed for the autopsy proper, which may explain why O'Connor and Jenkins have no recollection of them; on the other hand, neither O'Connor nor Jenkins is of the opinion that the wooden object was a portable X-ray machine [10,11]. If the wooden object was not Mr. Custer's, the question is begged again: when were these photographs taken? Acknowledgment The forbearance and generosity of the donor of the WBP autopsy photographs are most gratefully acknowledged. I am thankful also to Harold Rydberg for kind permission to use his sketch, to William Law for contacting Paul O'Connor and James Jenkins on my behalf, and to Bernice Moore for suggestions that led to improvements in the text. Notes [1] Livingstone HE (1992) High Treason 2. Carroll & Graf: New York, pp. 291-292. [2] ibid. p. 292. [3] Law WM Eagleham A (2004) In the Eye of History. JFK Lancer: Southlake, TX, p. 57. [4] ibid. p. 91. [5] Twyman NH (1997) Bloody Treason. Laurel: Rancho Santa Fe, CA, p. 241. [6] Eagleham A Hersh KF (2004) The Pitzer Case: Autopsy Photographs Released. JFK/Deep Politic Quarterly 9(2) 22-24. (Available here) [7] Mr. Rydberg's drawing was made for In the Eye of History [3], but not included. [8] Law loc. cit. p. 129. [9] Law loc. cit. p. 113. [10] Law loc. cit. p. 57n. [11] Law loc. cit. pp. 90-91. SCHEMATIC OF BETHESDA MORGUE BY PAUL O'CONNOR (1992) SKETCH OF BETHESDA MORGUE BY SKIP RYDBERG (2003) -- DONE FOR WILLIAM LAW

Below is an excerpt of a podcast by Dealey Plaza UK researchers Rick Russo and Brooks LaPlante about there being an "old" Bethesda morgue and a "new" Bethesda morgue which they claim holds the key to explaining why Bethesda technicians Jerrol Custer, Dennis David, Jim Jenkins, Paul O'Connor, and Floyd Reibe did not recognize some of the landmarks in the autopsy photographs (such as the wall telephone, tiles and head stirrup). According to them, the explanation is that some of the autopsy photographs were taken in the "old" Bethesda morgue, as opposed to the "new" Bethesda morgue where the autopsy was conducted. However, they are both advocates of the body substitution hypothesis which, to me, raises credibility issues, so I am making this post to seek information about what other members of this forum know about both the "old" and "new" Bethesda morgues (if, indeed, it is true that in 1963 there were both new and old Bethesda morgues), and about the autopsy photo anomalies which the above-named Bethesda technicians told David Lifton and William Law that they did not recognize (I had been aware of a possible solution, which I will provide in the following post, but this LaPlante/Russo video has me wondering whether it has actually been solved): The following is the source information for the podcast from which the above was excerpted: 'Brooks LaPlante and Rick Russo DPUK Talk Saturday 23rd March' Dealey Plaza UK | Apr 11, 2024 | https://youtu.be/vTabsL4AoA0?si=g_IBrpsJBYwyeB0Q Brooks LaPlante & Rick Russo re-examine the events at Bethesda on the evening of 22nd November 1963.

Ruth said she voted for Kennedy. I don't remember where I read it but thats what she said. No evidence she ever voted for or supported Nixon. I doubt very many Quakers voted for Nixon, despite Nixon claiming to be one. Ruth Paine as a member of the ACLU, supporter of civil rights, etc., would be "liberal"/JFK aligned. When I knew Ruth in the St. Petersburg Friends Meeting nobody else there was voting Republican (Bush II years), I doubt Ruth was. My father who grew up in the most conservative branch of Friends in North America, the Conservative Friends of Ohio who wear black and white, speak "thee" and "thou" and only a few hundred are left today, said when he grew up those rural farming Friends always voted Republican. That was before WW2 and Franklin D. Roosevelt where a shift happened. But before WW2 the Republicans were the party of Lincoln who freed the slaves, staunch quaker loyalty for that. Also, Herbert Hoover was a Quaker who became president and he was Republican (and Herbert Hoover was well-regarded among Quakers, unlike Nixon). But from FDR on, there was a shift to voting more Democratic.

It's more complicated than you make it out to be, and your certainty is not justified. But I don't need to waste my time. Kantor did change the time of his Ruby sighting and that time change aligns with the time of arrest change. If you know the evidence, you know that I am correct. Kantor was a good act, but he worked for the murderers. These guys were scheming and murdering before any of us were born. They aren't going to leave a document stating that they murdered JFK. The evidence must be interpreted.

Not a speck of evidence I am aware of that Kantor was an FBI asset, nor do you cite any even though making the allegation. Kantor was telling his Parkland sighting of Ruby from the beginning, I believe documented written by Kantor starting from as early as the first weekend, whereas Applin's claim to have seen Ruby in the Texas Theatre only became known years later. You say "the FBI knew about [it]" early but you cite no evidence for that. And "probably from Ruby himself" has no basis. As for who Applin saw, it definitely was not Ruby, even if Applin mistakenly thought so, for this reason: In the Sixth Floor Museum oral history of Texas Theatre patron Jack Davis, which can be found on the Sixth Floor Museum site, Davis tells of an unnamed (by Jack Davis) patron sitting across the aisle from him in the exact, specific seat where Applin located his "Jack Ruby". Well, the identity of the patron to whom Jack Davis referred, sitting precisely in the very seat Applin located his "Jack Ruby", is no mystery. It was another theater patron that day named John Gibson, manager of the nearby Elko Camera store, 239 W. Jefferson. Here is Gibson's Warren Commission testimony, https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/gibson.htm). What is missing is a photo of John Gibson, which would be interesting to see, to see how Applin could see Ruby on TV and mistakenly think John Gibson looked like Jack Ruby on TV. Remember how FBI agent Odum showed Marguerite Oswald a photo of that heavyset man in the Mexico City surveillance photo who was not Oswald, and Marguerite claimed forever after that that was a photo of Jack Ruby (it was not)? Same principle. But John Gibson is who that was, that Applin saw. Not Jack Ruby. To which may be added: there were a lot of police officers in the Texas Theatre that day, and as is well known, half the police force (or whatever percentage it was) knew Jack Ruby, several officers of whom specifically are known to have known Ruby very well personally (e.g. Cunningham, Courson). If it really had been Jack Ruby there, somebody would have recognized him other than just Applin. Applin saw Ruby on TV and simply made a mistaken identification from memory of some physical accidental resemblance. There was nothing to the Applin Jack Ruby claim, nor does it have anything to do with why Kantor said he saw Jack Ruby at Parkland. Kantor said he saw Ruby at Parkland ... because he saw Ruby at Parkland. Seth Kantor was an honest reporter. Ruby was at Parkland. It is a puzzle why the Warren Commission chose to say otherwise, against the evidence of Seth Kantor's highly credible witness. What comes to mind to me is that Ruby was there for some non-innocent reason, and it would open a can of worms for the Warren Commission to try to explain why he was there. Therefore, in the drive to wrap the case up around a LN Oswald killed two days later by an unplanned crime-of-passion LN Ruby, it was preferred in that narrative that Ruby not have been there. Therefore, that is what they wrote. Maybe there is a better explanation but that is my best guess as to why.

From Forum Tips & Tricks:

Are we sure the picture is of Geneva? Who has confirmed it is Geneva?

Trump Wanted to See Crowd Outside Trial. He Got 50 Randos. ‘LET’S GO GET SOME TACOS’ A couple of hungry Proud Boys, Laura Loomer, and some people from Queens. https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-wanted-to-see-crowd-outside-trial-he-got-50-randos?ref=home?ref=home

Is that the same place the WCR says he got out?

No, I don't support the WCRs conclusion, nor that or Posner's or Bugliosi's books.

Well, "concluded" would have been a better word.