The Phil Ochs Question

[Jim Glover]

Sure they could have chopped him in the neck also ....Wendy knew about the other incident somehow but they all could be true. Wendy died of cancer.

I just remembered the first words of the special version Phil sang in Chicago in reply to my request to say something about Dallas, was: "The Golden Idol is the King, I was at his crowning

My life just flashed before my eyes, I must be Drowning."

I don't think he would be thinking of his death in a song about Elvis.

Or why he would need a one way ticket home from an Elvis Concert.

Jim

******************************************************

Is that a song about Elvis? It could be about President Kennedy.

Kathy

I think it really is about his resentment and confusion about being set up in Dallas.

During that second set in Chicago Phil also told about how he wrote Crucifixion about JFK WHILE HE WAS IN ENGLAND AND TALKED WITH SOME FOLKS WHO TOLD HIM THAT IT WAS AN ANCIENT SACRIFICIAL RITUAL TO KILL THE BEST!

Which reminds me of where I read many years ago how the Dallas police found a religious pamphlet next to the Snipers nest that said something about the redemption of Jesus and other weird stuff.

Phil's rationalization for our predicament was that it was some kind of mysterious thing...but he also said that a Para Military squad did it...he was confused and he was compromised.

I think they thought that I would keep quiet because any investigation would reveal that my dad worked with the CPUSA.

They are not as smart as we sometimes think they are.

Jim

[Kathleen Collins]

Sure they could have chopped him in the neck also ....Wendy knew about the other incident somehow but they all could be true. Wendy died of cancer.

Jim

******************************************************

Phil also told about how he wrote Crucifixion about JFK WHILE HE WAS IN ENGLAND AND TALKED WITH SOME FOLKS WHO TOLD HIM THAT IT WAS AN ANCIENT SACRIFICIAL RITUAL TO KILL THE BEST!

Which reminds me of where I read many years ago how the Dallas police found a religious pamphlet next to the Snipers nest that said something about the redemption of Jesus and other weird stuff.Jim

Maybe Gary Mack could tell me. Was there any religious/occult material found near the "Sniper's Nest," as stated above?

Kathy

[Jim Glover]

Sure they could have chopped him in the neck also ....Wendy knew about the other incident somehow but they all could be true. Wendy died of cancer.

Jim

******************************************************

Phil also told about how he wrote Crucifixion about JFK WHILE HE WAS IN ENGLAND AND TALKED WITH SOME FOLKS WHO TOLD HIM THAT IT WAS AN ANCIENT SACRIFICIAL RITUAL TO KILL THE BEST!

Which reminds me of where I read many years ago how the Dallas police found a religious pamphlet next to the Snipers nest that said something about the redemption of Jesus and other weird stuff.Jim

Maybe Gary Mack could tell me. Was there any religious/occult material found near the "Sniper's Nest," as stated above?

Kathy

Maybe He can.

He won't reply to me anymore.

Gary seems to promote stories (Badge man) ect and then acts like the truth teller in debunking what he originally promoted.

His latest is that the crowd that ran towards the Grassy Knoll were chasing echos of shots from his now 6th Floor Museum.

I guess that leaves out the possibility of the Badge Man shooting... he can't have it both ways in my way of thinking.

Echos need something to bounce off of and everyone knows the difference of the source of sound and Echos except folks who are bull*%%## Us.

Jim

[Kathleen Collins]

"Jerry Rubin ... Somewhat of a friend to John Lennon." ? - John describes meeting Jerry with some trepidation. In a short time, he recognised, what he already knew in principle, that the persona created by the Media is frequently different from the truth, and saw in Jerry a true artist, Jerry responded that he saw in John a true revolutionary. Jerry, and other people John and Yoko met in NY were a significant part of John 'falling in love' with NYC.

[\QUOTE]

Jerry Rubin used John Lennon. It was because of the likes of Jerry Rubin, who -- as Lennon termed it -- got a "cushy job" -- that Lennon died. And Rubin: do you think his getting hit by a car was an accident?

Kathy

[William Kelly]

My friend Mike Tierson has done a show on songs related to the JFK assassination.

Among them was a song by Phil Ochs, Crusifixion, with Jim Clover.

Thanks for your imput on Phil being at Dealey Plaza Jim,

BK

[William Kelly]

"Jerry Rubin ... Somewhat of a friend to John Lennon." ? - John describes meeting Jerry with some trepidation. In a short time, he recognised, what he already knew in principle, that the persona created by the Media is frequently different from the truth, and saw in Jerry a true artist, Jerry responded that he saw in John a true revolutionary. Jerry, and other people John and Yoko met in NY were a significant part of John 'falling in love' with NYC.

"Peter, I always wondered about the death of the photographer James Altgens because he and his wife were found dead in their house. I haven't found anything about the autopsy but from an article I saved from St Pete times DEC 15, 1995.

"the Bodies of Mr Altgens and his wife Clara, were found Tuesday at their home in Dallas, according to an employee of Sparkman-Hillcrest Funeral Home. Autopsies were ordered and toxicology tests were under way....said Laurie Nazzreno of the Dallas County medical examiners office" "

I understand the verdict was carbon monoxide poisoning. (If found in the house and not in a car, there are precedents in murder where a hose is introduced through an opening into a closed room like a bed room for example.)

http://hyderabadin.org/wiki-Bob_Dylan

"By 1963, Dylan and Baez were both prominent in the civil rights movement, singing together at rallies including the March on Washington where Martin Luther King, Jr. gave his "I have a dream" speech.Dylan performed "Only a Pawn in their Game" and "When the Ship Comes In"... His next album, "The Times They Are a-Changin", reflected a more sophisticated, politicized and cynical Dylan...The Brechtian-influenced "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" describes a young socialite's killing of a hotel maid. The song never explicitly mentions race, but many sources wrote it leaves no doubt that the killer is white, the victim black....

By the end of 1963, Dylan felt both manipulated and constrained by the folk-protest movement. Accepting the "Tom Paine Award" from the National Emergency Civil Liberties Committee at a ceremony shortly after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, a drunken, rambling Dylan questioned the role of the committee, insulted its members as old and balding, and claimed to see something of himself (and of every man) in assassin Lee Harvey Oswald..."

"You said you'd never compromise

With the mystery tramp, but now you realize

He's not selling any alibis

As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes

And ask him do you want to make a deal?"

----------------

Thanks John, you are jogging my memories.

I always wondered if Phil told Dylan the whole story. I wonder if Phil and Dylan's first manager, Albert Grossman knew because he was his manager when Phil went to Dallas.

Here is what I recently found and sent to John Simkin that makes me wonder even more.

"I just found something I forgot about Phil....Al Grossman was his earlyest manager...Phil used to say Grossman was the smartest and he was in awe and kind of feared Grossman in the sense that Phil got nervous in his presence.

Now a few weeks ago when I was trying to pin down exactly where the first Hootenanny tour bus was when JFK was shot....One of the singers in the group the Yaghtsmen said "the gig in Dallas was cancelled Just before we left LA".

That made me think maybe I was not the only one who had pre knowledge...so when I got back the records from the library at SMU in Dallas, an early summer article said Peter Paul and Mary will be appearing Nov 22.

So when I followed up on that I thought "OK JFK was killed and then there should be an announcement that due to the Assassination, the Gig was cancelled.

But I found out that was not the case.

As late as Nov 8th there was an announcement that the date was now Nov 23 and then another that that gig was cancelled due to the Assassination...Strange that the concert only had a two week notice!

PP&M were big stars and not on our Little star Tour which was advertised in Corpus Christie comming on Nov 5th as being possibly the same as the TV Show.....There was a Folk scare in the Month before JFK was killed in that modern Folk music was goin to be in Texas and Southern colleges for the first time.

The FBI mentions in the beginning of Phil Och's files that Folk singers and subversives were the same bunch.

This does not prove anything but if Phil and I knew and the man who talked me into going on the Hootenanny tour knew that JfK was going to be killed even if He only knew because I told him ..but he did say "I know and that is why we want you to go...but don't write anything down or interfere because it is too dangerous"

Well, It seems that the record shows to me anyway that there is now circumstantial evidence that Albert Grossman as well as others in Show biz would have heard about the rumor which turned out to be true.

Another interesting thing is that Jim and Jean (me and my ex wife) were not listed as being on the Tour at all....I guess if we had to be taken care of, who would know we were anywhere at the time."

************

When we were Back at Ohio State, Phil would read me articles about the defection of Lee Harvey Oswald and I would say "yes I have thought of goin to Russia too".

Just like "the Family Jewels" released yesterday by the CIA, Phil told me that the CIA would assassinate Castro. I didn't think they could actually do it.. we bet 5 bucks on that but Phil never paid me on that one. I don't even think that Phil thought for sure that Oswald was a real Defector...I Didn't.

Phil and Sam Hood at the GasLight were kind of excited when they read that someone took a pot shot at General Walker in Dallas because it was the first time in history that a left winger (we supposed) showed some balls. Ruth Pain thinks this proves Oswald shot JFK, but the police report waas that there were two other men with a car .

Oswald didn't drive, remember? and how is he gonna get his rifle back home...on a bus?

Here is a letter I just got from a friend from Ohio State about RFK and JFK....He also was Physically attacked for his research.

They hit him on the head with a brick and told him to get out of DC.

"Jim:

It's your old friend Rusty from Columbus. If you remember, I told you about the RFK assassination - Bobby had always suspected a combination of the Mafia, Cuban exiles and ex-CIA due to Bobby's crackdown on the Mafia and the failed Cuban expedition. He had mentioned to someone that the first thing he was going to do once elected was open an investigation - next thing you know he's gone. It was widely accepted in Washington and well known when I worked for Mark Lane. Nothing really new.

Rusty"

------

I guess there are no real secrets anymore.

I hope somebody tells me something in the Family Jewels that we didn't already know when it was goin down.

Jim

[William Kelly]

Dylan and Oswald

Bob Dylan's speech given to the E.C.L.C.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/sear...=clnk&gl=us

BOB DYLAN'S REMARKS AT THE BILL OF RIGHTS DINNER

at the Americana Hotel on 12/13/63

"I haven't got any guitar, I can talk though. I want to thank you for the Tom Paine award in behalf everybody that went down to Cuba. First of all because they're all young and it's took me a long time to get young and now I consider myself young. And I'm proud of it. I'm proud that I'm young. And I only wish that all you people who are sitting out here today or tonight weren't here and I could see all kinds of faces with hair on their head - and everything like that, everything leading to youngness, celebrating the anniversary when we overthrew the House Un-American Activities just yesterday, - Because you people should be at the beach. You should be out there and you should be swimming and you should be just relaxing in the time you have to relax. (Laughter) It is not an old peoples' world. It is not an old peoples' world. It has nothing to do with old people. Old people when their hair grows out, they should go out. (Laughter) And I look down to see the people that are governing me and making my rules - and they haven't got any hair on their head - I get very uptight about it. (Laughter)

And they talk about Negroes, and they talk about black and white. And they talk about colors of red and blue and yellow. Man, I just don't see any colors at all when I look out. I don't see any colors at all and if people have taught through the years to look at colors - I've read history books, I've never seen one history book that tells how anybody feels. I've found facts about our history, I've found out what people know about what goes on but I never found anything about anybody feels about anything happens. It's all just plain facts. And it don't help me one little bit to look back.

I wish sometimes I could have come in here in the 1930's like my first idol - used to have an idol, Woody Guthrie, who came in the 1930's (Applause). But it has sure changed in the time Woody's been here and the time I've been here. It's not that easy any more. People seem to have more fears.

I get different presents from people that I play for and they bring presents to me backstage - very weird, weird presents - presents that I couldn't buy. They buy - they bring me presents that - I've got George Lincoln Rockwell's tie clip that somebody robbed for me. (Laughter) I have General Walker's car trunk keys - keys to his trunk that somebody robbed for me. Now these are my presents. I have fallout shelter signs that people robbed for me from Philadelphia and these are the little signs. There's no black and white, left and right to me anymore; there's only up and down and down is very close to the ground. And I'm trying to go up without thinking about anything trivial such as politics. They has got nothing to do with it. I'm thinking about the general people and when they get hurt.

I want to accept this award, the Tom Paine Award, from the Emergency Civil Liberties Committee. I want to accept it in my name but I'm not really accepting it in my name and I'm not accepting it in any kind of group's name, any Negro group or any other kind of group. There are Negroes - I was on the march on Washington up on the platform and I looked around at all the Negroes there and I didn't see any Negroes that looked like none of my friends. My friends don't wear suits. My friends don't have to wear suits. My friends don't have to wear any kind of thing to prove that they're respectable Negroes. My friends are my friends, and they're kind, gentle people if they're my friends. And I'm not going to try to push nothing over.

So, I accept this reward - not reward, (Laughter) award in behalf of Phillip Luce who led the group to Cuba which all people should go down to Cuba. I don't see why anybody can't go to Cuba. I don't see what's going to hurt by going any place. I don't know what's going to hurt anybody's eyes to see anything. On the other hand, Phillip is a friend of mine who went to Cuba. I'll stand up and to get uncompromisable about it, which I have to be to be honest, I just got to be, as I got to admit that the man who shot President Kennedy, Lee Oswald, I don't know exactly where —what he thought he was doing, but I got to admit honestly that I too - I saw some of myself in him. I don't think it would have gone - I don't think it could go that far. But I got to stand up and say I saw things that he felt, in me - not to go that far and shoot. (Boos and hisses) You can boo but booing's got nothing to do with it. It's a - I just a - I've got to tell you, man, it's Bill of Rights is free speech and I just want to admit that I accept this Tom Paine Award in behalf of James Forman of the Students Non-Violent Coordinating Committee and on behalf of the people who went to Cuba. (Boos and Applause)"

December 19, 1963

Dear Friend:

Many of our friends disapproved our choice of Bob Dylan for the Tom Paine award. Without defending his acceptance speech, I would like to tell you why we feel he deserved the award. Bob Dylan has sent us a message which more clearly conveys his feelings. It is enclosed and I urge you to read it carefully.

E.C.L.C. defends the right of all Americans to advocate their beliefs. This is not confined to ideology or political groups. It should certainly be extended to our own youth, who according to many experts are becoming increasingly alienated and lost in our present society.

Whether we approve or not, Bob Dylan has become the idol of the progressive youngsters of today, regardless of their political factions. He is speaking to them in terms of protest that they understand and applaud. (see the enclosed review from The New York Times).

E.C.L.C. feels that it is urgent to recognize the protest of youth today and to help make it understood by the older generation. Walt Whitman and Woody Guthrie, the culture antecedents of Bob Dylan, were not appreciated by their society until they were very old. We think that it would be better to make the effort now to comprehend what Bob Dylan is saying to and for the youth. It is true that he is not as respectable as Lord Russell, the winner of last year's award, but neither was Tom Paine, and our history is too full of disregard for important messages which were unrespectable at the time.

The annual celebration of Bill of Rights Day is not just a fund-raising affair - although we hope that our friends will help us carry on our work - it is also an opportunity for us to present to our supporters the problems of our democracy which in their daily lives they are apt to over-look.

This year over 1400 people were at the largest civil liberties dinner on record. We appreciate the understanding and support we received from many of those present and we hope that others will gain from the reading of the enclosed message by Bob Dylan an understanding which his speech did not convey.

Yours sincerely,

Corliss Lamont

A MESSAGE

from Bob Dylan

(Sent to the Emergency Civil Liberties Committee

after he received the Tom Paine Award at the

Bill of Rights dinner on December 13, 1963.)

to anybody it may concern...

clark?

mairi?

phillip?

edith?

mr lamont?

countless faces I do not know

an all fighters for good things that I can not see

when I speak of bald heads, I mean bald minds

when I speak of the seashore, I mean the restin shore

I dont know why I mentioned either of them

my life runs in a series of moods

in private an in personal ways, sometimes,

I, myself, can change the mood I'm in t the

mood I'd like t be in. when I walked thru the

doors of the americana hotel, I needed to change

my mood... for reasons inside myself.

I am a restless soul

hungry

perhaps wretched

it is hard to hear someone you dont know, say

"this is what he meant t say" about something

you just said

for no one can say what I meant t say

absolutely no one

at times I even cant

that was one of those times

my life is lived out daily in the places I feel

most confortable in. these places are places where

I am unknown an unstared at. I perform rarely, an

when I do, there is a constant commotion burnin

at my body an at my mind because of the attention

aimed at me. instincts fight my emotions an fears

fight my instincts...

I do not claim t be smart by the standards set up

I dont even claim to be normal by the standards

set up

an I do not claim to know any kind of truth

but like an artist who puts his painting (after

he's painted it) in front of thousands of unknown

eyes, I also put my song there that way

(after I've made it)

it is as easy an as simple as that

I can not speak. I can not talk

I can only write an I can only sing

perhaps I should've sung a song

but that wouldn't a been right either

for I was given an award not to sing

but rather on what I have sung

no what I should've said was

"thank you very much ladies an gentlemen"

yes that is what I should've said

but unfortunatly... I didn't

an I didn't because I did not know

I thought something else was expected of me

other than just sayin "thank you"

an I did not know what it was

it is a fierce heavy feeling

thinkin something is expected of you

but you dont know what exactly it is...

it brings forth a wierd form of guilt

I should've remembered

"I am BOB DYLAN an I dont have t speak

I dont have t say nothin if I dont wanna"

but

I didn't remember

I constantly asked myself while eatin supper

"what should I say? what should I tell 'm?

everybody else is gonna tell 'm something"

but I could not answer myself

I even asked someone who was sittin nex t me

an he couldn't tell me neither. my mind blew

up an needless t say I had t get it back in its

rightful shape (whatever that might be) an so

I escaped from the big room... only t hear my

name being shouted an the words "git in here

git in here" overlappin with the findin of my

hand being pulled across hundreds of tables

with the lights turned on strong... guidin me

back t where I tried t escape from

"what should I say? what should I say?"

over an over again

oh God, I'd a given anything not t be there

"shut the lights off at least"

people were coughin an my head was poundin

an the sounds of mumble jumble sank deep in

my skull from all sides of the room

until I tore everything loose from my mind

an said "just be honest, dylan, just be honest"

an so I found myself in front of the plank

like I found myself once in the path of a car

an I jumped...

jumped with all my bloody might

just tryin t get out a the way

but first screamin one last song

when I spoke of Lee Oswald, I was speakin of the times

I was not speakin of his deed if it was his deed.

the deed speaks for itself

but I am sick

so sick

at hearin "we all share the blame" for every

church bombing, gun battle, mine disaster,

poverty explosion, an president killing that

comes about.

it is so easy t say "we" an bow our heads together

I must say "I" alone an bow my head alone

for it is I alone who is livin my life

I have beloved companions but they do not

eat nor sleep for me

an even they must say "I"

yes if there's violence in the times then

there must be violence in me

I am not a perfect mute.

I hear the thunder an I cant avoid hearin it

once this is straight between us, it's then an

only then that we can say "we" an really mean

it... an go on from there t do something about

it

When I spoke of Negroes

I was speakin of my Negro friends

from harlem

an Jackson

selma an birmingham

atlanta pittsburg, an all points east

west, north, south an wherever else they

might happen t be.

in rat filled rooms

an dirt land farms

schools, dimestores, factories

pool halls an street corners

the ones that dont own ties

but know proudly they dont have to

not one little bit

they dont have t be like they naturally aint

t get what they naturally own no more 'n anybody

else does

it only gets things complicated

an leads people into thinkin the wrong things

black skin is black skin

It cant be covered by clothes an made t seem

acceptable, well liked an respectable...

t teach that or t think that just tends the

flames of another monster myth...

it is naked black skin an nothin else

if a Negro has t wear a tie t be a Negro

then I must cut off all ties with who he has

t do it for.

I do not know why I wanted t say this that

nite.

perhaps it was just one of the many things

in my mind

born from the confusion of my times

when I spoke about the people that went t Cuba

I was speakin of the free right t travel

I am not afraid t see things

I challenge seein things

I am insulted t the depths of my soul

when someone I dont know commands that I

cant see this an gives me mysterious reasons

why I'll get hurt if I do see it... tellin me

at the same time about goodness an badness in

people that again I dont know...

I've been told about people all my life

about niggers, kikes, wops, bohunks, spicks, chinks,

an I been told how they eat, dress, walk, talk,

steal, rob, an kill but nobody tells me how any

of 'm feels... nobody tells me how any of 'm cries

or laughs or kisses. I'm fed up with most newspapers,

radios, tv an movies an the like t tell me. I want

now t see an know for myself...

an I accepted that award for all others like me

who want t see for themselves... an who dont want

that God-given right taken away

stolen away

or snuck out from beneath them

yes a travel ban in the south would protect

Americans more, I'm sure, than the one t Cuba

but in all honesty I would want t crash that

one too

do you understand?

do you really understand?

I mean I want t see. I want t see all I can

everyplace there is t see it

my life carries eyes

an they're there for one reason

the reason t see thru them

my country is the Minnesota-North Dakota territory

that's where I was born an learned how t walk an

it's where I was raised an went t school... my

youth was spent wildly among the snowy hills an

sky blue lakes, willow fields an abandoned open

pit mines. contrary t rumors, I am very proud of

where I'm from an also of the many blood streams that

run in my roots. but I would not be doing what

I'm doing today if I hadn't come t New York. I was

given my direction from new york. I was fed in

new york. I was beaten down by new york an I was

picked up by new york. I was made t keep going on

by new york. I'm speakin now of the people I've met

who were strugglin for their lives an other peoples'

lives in the thirties an forties an the fifties

an I look t their times

I reach out t their times

an, in a sense, am jealous of their times

t think I have no use for "old" people is a betrayin thought

those that know me know otherwise

those that dont, probably're baffled

like a friend of mine, jack elliott, who says he

was reborn in Oklahoma, I say I was reborn in

New York...

there is no age limit stuck on it

an no one is more conscious of it than I

yes it is a fierce feeling, knowin something you

dont know about's expected of you. but it's worse

if you blindly try t follow with explodin words

(for that's all they can do is explode)

an the explodin words're misunderstood

I've heard I was misunderstood

I do not apologize for myself nor my fears

I do not apologize for any statement which led

some t believe "oh my God! I think he's the one

that really shot the president"

I am a writer an a singer of the words I write

I am no speaker nor any politician

an my songs speak for me because I write them

in the confinement of my own mind an have t cope

with no one except my own self. I dont have t face

anyone with them until long after they're done

no I do not apologize for being me nor any part of me

but I can return what is rightfully yours at any

given time. I have stared at it for a long while

now. it is a beautiful award. there is a kindness

t Mr Paine's face an there is almost a sadness in

his smile. his trials show thru his eyes. I know

really not much about him but somehow I would like

t sing for him. there is a gentleness t his way.

yes thru all my flounderin wildness, I am, when it

comes down to it, very proud that you have given this

t me. I would hang it high, an let my friends see in

it what I see, but I also would give it back if

you wish. There is no sense in keepin it if you've

made a mistake in givin it. for it means more'n any

store bought thing an it'd only be cheatin t keep it

also I did not know that the dinner was a donation

dinner. I did not know you were gonna ask anyone

for money. an I understand you lost money on the

masterful way I expressed myself... then I am in debt t you

not a money debt but rather a moral debt

if you'd a sold me something, then it'd be a money debt

but you sold nothin, so it is a moral debt

an moral debts're worse 'n money debts

for they have t be paid back in whatever is missin

an in this case, it's money

please send me my bill

an I shall pay it

no matter what the sum

I have a hatred of debts an want t be even in

the best way I can

you needn't think about this, for money means

very little t me

so then

I'll return once again t the road

I cant tell you why other people write, but I

write in order to keep from going insane.

my head, I expect'd turn inside out if my hands

were t leave me.

but I hardly ever talk about why I write. an I

scarcely ever think about it. the thought of it is

too alarmin

an I never ever talk about why I speak

but that's because I never do it. this is the

first time I am talkin about it... an I pray

the last

the thought of doing it again is too scary

ha! it's a scary world

but only once in a while huh?

I love you all up there an the ones I dont love,

it's only because I do not know them an have not

seen them... God it's so hard hatin. it's so

tiresome... an after hatin something to death,

it's never worth the bother an trouble

out! out! brief candle

life's but an open window

an I must jump back thru it now

see yuh

respectfully an unrespectfully

bob dylan

Edited May 23, 2010 by William Kelly

[John Dolva]

Reminds me of Lennon heeding a warning not to go to the 68 convention if he wanted to live.

[William Kelly]

Is Jim Glover still a member of this forum?

If so I'd like to know if he's seen Phil Och's FBI records?

Or if anybody has?

BK

"Jerry Rubin ... Somewhat of a friend to John Lennon." ? - John describes meeting Jerry with some trepidation. In a short time, he recognised, what he already knew in principle, that the persona created by the Media is frequently different from the truth, and saw in Jerry a true artist, Jerry responded that he saw in John a true revolutionary. Jerry, and other people John and Yoko met in NY were a significant part of John 'falling in love' with NYC.

"Peter, I always wondered about the death of the photographer James Altgens because he and his wife were found dead in their house. I haven't found anything about the autopsy but from an article I saved from St Pete times DEC 15, 1995.

"the Bodies of Mr Altgens and his wife Clara, were found Tuesday at their home in Dallas, according to an employee of Sparkman-Hillcrest Funeral Home. Autopsies were ordered and toxicology tests were under way....said Laurie Nazzreno of the Dallas County medical examiners office" "

I understand the verdict was carbon monoxide poisoning. (If found in the house and not in a car, there are precedents in murder where a hose is introduced through an opening into a closed room like a bed room for example.)

http://hyderabadin.org/wiki-Bob_Dylan

"By 1963, Dylan and Baez were both prominent in the civil rights movement, singing together at rallies including the March on Washington where Martin Luther King, Jr. gave his "I have a dream" speech.Dylan performed "Only a Pawn in their Game" and "When the Ship Comes In"... His next album, "The Times They Are a-Changin", reflected a more sophisticated, politicized and cynical Dylan...The Brechtian-influenced "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" describes a young socialite's killing of a hotel maid. The song never explicitly mentions race, but many sources wrote it leaves no doubt that the killer is white, the victim black....

By the end of 1963, Dylan felt both manipulated and constrained by the folk-protest movement. Accepting the "Tom Paine Award" from the National Emergency Civil Liberties Committee at a ceremony shortly after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, a drunken, rambling Dylan questioned the role of the committee, insulted its members as old and balding, and claimed to see something of himself (and of every man) in assassin Lee Harvey Oswald..."

"You said you'd never compromise

With the mystery tramp, but now you realize

He's not selling any alibis

As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes

And ask him do you want to make a deal?"

----------------

Thanks John, you are jogging my memories.

I always wondered if Phil told Dylan the whole story. I wonder if Phil and Dylan's first manager, Albert Grossman knew because he was his manager when Phil went to Dallas.

Here is what I recently found and sent to John Simkin that makes me wonder even more.

"I just found something I forgot about Phil....Al Grossman was his earlyest manager...Phil used to say Grossman was the smartest and he was in awe and kind of feared Grossman in the sense that Phil got nervous in his presence.

Now a few weeks ago when I was trying to pin down exactly where the first Hootenanny tour bus was when JFK was shot....One of the singers in the group the Yaghtsmen said "the gig in Dallas was cancelled Just before we left LA".

That made me think maybe I was not the only one who had pre knowledge...so when I got back the records from the library at SMU in Dallas, an early summer article said Peter Paul and Mary will be appearing Nov 22.

So when I followed up on that I thought "OK JFK was killed and then there should be an announcement that due to the Assassination, the Gig was cancelled.

But I found out that was not the case.

As late as Nov 8th there was an announcement that the date was now Nov 23 and then another that that gig was cancelled due to the Assassination...Strange that the concert only had a two week notice!

PP&M were big stars and not on our Little star Tour which was advertised in Corpus Christie comming on Nov 5th as being possibly the same as the TV Show.....There was a Folk scare in the Month before JFK was killed in that modern Folk music was goin to be in Texas and Southern colleges for the first time.

The FBI mentions in the beginning of Phil Och's files that Folk singers and subversives were the same bunch.

This does not prove anything but if Phil and I knew and the man who talked me into going on the Hootenanny tour knew that JfK was going to be killed even if He only knew because I told him ..but he did say "I know and that is why we want you to go...but don't write anything down or interfere because it is too dangerous"

Well, It seems that the record shows to me anyway that there is now circumstantial evidence that Albert Grossman as well as others in Show biz would have heard about the rumor which turned out to be true.

Another interesting thing is that Jim and Jean (me and my ex wife) were not listed as being on the Tour at all....I guess if we had to be taken care of, who would know we were anywhere at the time."

************

When we were Back at Ohio State, Phil would read me articles about the defection of Lee Harvey Oswald and I would say "yes I have thought of goin to Russia too".

Just like "the Family Jewels" released yesterday by the CIA, Phil told me that the CIA would assassinate Castro. I didn't think they could actually do it.. we bet 5 bucks on that but Phil never paid me on that one. I don't even think that Phil thought for sure that Oswald was a real Defector...I Didn't.

Phil and Sam Hood at the GasLight were kind of excited when they read that someone took a pot shot at General Walker in Dallas because it was the first time in history that a left winger (we supposed) showed some balls. Ruth Pain thinks this proves Oswald shot JFK, but the police report waas that there were two other men with a car .

Oswald didn't drive, remember? and how is he gonna get his rifle back home...on a bus?

Here is a letter I just got from a friend from Ohio State about RFK and JFK....He also was Physically attacked for his research.

They hit him on the head with a brick and told him to get out of DC.

"Jim:

It's your old friend Rusty from Columbus. If you remember, I told you about the RFK assassination - Bobby had always suspected a combination of the Mafia, Cuban exiles and ex-CIA due to Bobby's crackdown on the Mafia and the failed Cuban expedition. He had mentioned to someone that the first thing he was going to do once elected was open an investigation - next thing you know he's gone. It was widely accepted in Washington and well known when I worked for Mark Lane. Nothing really new.

Rusty"

------

I guess there are no real secrets anymore.

I hope somebody tells me something in the Family Jewels that we didn't already know when it was goin down.

Jim

[Jim Glover]

Yes, I read the pages over 300 many years ago. Of course Half of it was blacked out.

Woody Guthrie, Bob Dylan and Phil's names were mentioned in the beginning as I recall.

The Director didn't like Folk Singers or anyone on the left and with CIA counter/intell they were looking for "moles" including anyone under Commie influence and that could be the Washington Post or JFK.

Jim

Is Jim Glover still a member of this forum?

If so I'd like to know if he's seen Phil Och's FBI records?

Or if anybody has?

BK

[Jim Glover]

Sorry, I misquoted Ed Saunders above.

They got together at RFK's Senate Office which now I am sure that He would think was bugged.

Jim, you don't by any chance mean Ed Sanders of the Fugs, do you?

Ed's book on Manson was far superior to Bugliosi's. He actually did some deep investigative work - unlike Bugliosi who merely presented what he needed to present as a prosecutor... that is, a conviction didn't require deep background work.

I bet Ed could write a better book on the assassination, too.

sorry so late in responding ... sure it was ED from the Fugs.

Speakin of Manson I picked him up hitch hiking in Topanga canyon on my way home... he was with 2 girls and he talked about bein in prison a lot and how the Beach Boys were helping him in the music biz....

I am glad I got home after I dropped them off somewhere on Topanga road... where that was I forget.

I think it was around that time folks were scared about murders in the area and the rumor was it was "Bigfoot" killing people, but I never believed in the Big Foot legend.

[Jim Glover]

Sure they could have chopped him in the neck also ....Wendy knew about the other incident somehow but they all could be true. Wendy died of cancer.

Jim

******************************************************

Phil also told about how he wrote Crucifixion about JFK WHILE HE WAS IN ENGLAND AND TALKED WITH SOME FOLKS WHO TOLD HIM THAT IT WAS AN ANCIENT SACRIFICIAL RITUAL TO KILL THE BEST!

Which reminds me of where I read many years ago how the Dallas police found a religious pamphlet next to the Snipers nest that said something about the redemption of Jesus and other weird stuff.Jim

Maybe Gary Mack could tell me. Was there any religious/occult material found near the "Sniper's Nest," as stated above?

Kathy

Hi Kathy,

I would like to add that I read after I posted this above, the Religious leaflet was a "Jesus Saves" message and I think found by the chicken bones... weather the 5th or 5th floor I am not sure.

Another thing about Phil's song "One way ticket home" is he sings about goin to the Theater and then on the plane and he can't wait to get home and watch TV and call friends on the phone.

After some research of the Warren files a couple years ago I found that one of the witnesses in the theater saw a man who acted strange or scared when Oswald was being arrested, And I thought Man, maybe someone told Phil to go to the Texas Theater too.

That was also where the usher Butch Burrows told me in 93 he saw them taken a taller Oswald look- a- like out the side door.

a Dallas cop also stated in the Warren files as I recall that two Dallas Cops he knew went into the Theater but did not come out with the squad that had Lee Oswald arrested.

This Blew my mind because at that time, I was kind of abducted and forced onto a 2nd shadow Hollywood Hootenanny Tour bus near Huntsville and later at a small airport is where the two Dallas cops with the 2nd Oswald in their custody got on with lots of suits and more mean looking characters including David Ferrie who asked me if I knew The man who was getting on at one point.. at the airport or just afterwards... it was George Bush SR. sitting next to Hoover. I recognized Bush from when he was with his son little George in Willowick Ohio when he was just gettin started in the oil Biz and I found out Dresser was the Family connected oil tool company he was connected to in Cleveland. That was around 53 or 54.

The CIA (pre CIA in those days) were playing Spy games with my family I believe before I was Born.

I found out from my uncle Ben that Dads first job as a life guard was at the big rich Country Club in North Columbus Ohio...and I found the founder of the club and Golf Course was Sam Bush, Prescott Bush's Father.

I don't think I told Ferrie that I knew Bush... We both would be Dead I am sure.

That day JFK got shot, I thought I would be next... a scary night and I would have done anything for a one way ticket home myself...but they knew I knew and where to find me so I just kept very quiet so I could make it home.

I wonder if anyone could research if Tommy Gambino knew Phil Ochs.

I read all about how Jimmy Hoffa, Carlos Marcello and Trafficante wanted JFK dead, but they couldn't have engineered what I witnessed and they sure couldn't cover it up.

They did know before the hit that LBJ would get rid of Bobby and all their phones were tapped and even their lawyer Frank Ragano was being spied on.

My suspicion is that one power never mentioned was the Mob's Banker, Meyer Lansky, and his mob had to have ties to Mossad.

The hit not only saved the jobs of LBJ, Hoover but boosted the future of Bush and with JFK gone, Israel got what it wanted, the Bomb.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Jim Glover

[Robert Newell]

Bill.. Thank-you for posting the message from Dylan to the e.c.l.c. It was great...Robert

[Greg Parker]

Sure they could have chopped him in the neck also ....Wendy knew about the other incident somehow but they all could be true. Wendy died of cancer.

Jim

******************************************************

Phil also told about how he wrote Crucifixion about JFK WHILE HE WAS IN ENGLAND AND TALKED WITH SOME FOLKS WHO TOLD HIM THAT IT WAS AN ANCIENT SACRIFICIAL RITUAL TO KILL THE BEST!

Which reminds me of where I read many years ago how the Dallas police found a religious pamphlet next to the Snipers nest that said something about the redemption of Jesus and other weird stuff.Jim

Maybe Gary Mack could tell me. Was there any religious/occult material found near the "Sniper's Nest," as stated above?

Kathy

Hi Kathy,

I would like to add that I read after I posted this above, the Religious leaflet was a "Jesus Saves" message and I think found by the chicken bones... weather the 5th or 5th floor I am not sure.

Another thing about Phil's song "One way ticket home" is he sings about goin to the Theater and then on the plane and he can't wait to get home and watch TV and call friends on the phone.

After some research of the Warren files a couple years ago I found that one of the witnesses in the theater saw a man who acted strange or scared when Oswald was being arrested, And I thought Man, maybe someone told Phil to go to the Texas Theater too.

That was also where the usher Butch Burrows told me in 93 he saw them taken a taller Oswald look- a- like out the side door.

a Dallas cop also stated in the Warren files as I recall that two Dallas Cops he knew went into the Theater but did not come out with the squad that had Lee Oswald arrested.

This Blew my mind because at that time, I was kind of abducted and forced onto a 2nd shadow Hollywood Hootenanny Tour bus near Huntsville and later at a small airport is where the two Dallas cops with the 2nd Oswald in their custody got on with lots of suits and more mean looking characters including David Ferrie who asked me if I knew The man who was getting on at one point.. at the airport or just afterwards... it was George Bush SR. sitting next to Hoover. I recognized Bush from when he was with his son little George in Willowick Ohio when he was just gettin started in the oil Biz and I found out Dresser was the Family connected oil tool company he was connected to in Cleveland. That was around 53 or 54.

The CIA (pre CIA in those days) were playing Spy games with my family I believe before I was Born.

I found out from my uncle Ben that Dads first job as a life guard was at the big rich Country Club in North Columbus Ohio...and I found the founder of the club and Golf Course was Sam Bush, Prescott Bush's Father.

I don't think I told Ferrie that I knew Bush... We both would be Dead I am sure.

That day JFK got shot, I thought I would be next... a scary night and I would have done anything for a one way ticket home myself...but they knew I knew and where to find me so I just kept very quiet so I could make it home.

I wonder if anyone could research if Tommy Gambino knew Phil Ochs.

I read all about how Jimmy Hoffa, Carlos Marcello and Trafficante wanted JFK dead, but they couldn't have engineered what I witnessed and they sure couldn't cover it up.

They did know before the hit that LBJ would get rid of Bobby and all their phones were tapped and even their lawyer Frank Ragano was being spied on.

My suspicion is that one power never mentioned was the Mob's Banker, Meyer Lansky, and his mob had to have ties to Mossad.

The hit not only saved the jobs of LBJ, Hoover but boosted the future of Bush and with JFK gone, Israel got what it wanted, the Bomb.

"While we were standing there, someone brought the word that the President was dead. Even with the large number of people there, you coukd have heard a pin drop. There wasn't a sound. Ithen looked over between someone's feet and there lay a carton of books broken open withg the lid flapped back. Inside the carton was a paperback book and on the cover was 'Christ Leads the Way' with a picture of Jesus." Interview with Luke Mooney, No More Silence, p227.

I believe these were Catholic religious studies books in the Kerygmatic style - which ironically has crucifixion as a central theme...

Speaking of which... I listened to the Jim and Jean version last night on Youtube. Great job! Right up there with my favourite version by Jeannie Lewis.

Tears Of Steel & The Clowning Cavaleras

Jeannie's 3rd record was the ambitious double-album set Tears of Steel & The Clowning Calaveras (1976) which recreated her series of concerts held in November 1975. She drew the initial inspiration for the project from the poem Tears of Steel by Chilean writer Pablo Neruda, and from the 'Day of the Dead' ceremony, held annually in Mexico on the Catholic feast of All Soul's Day. This unique festival, in which people parade with `calaveras' (mock skeletons) in "a burlesque parody of life and death", is ostensibly a Catholic riutal, but is in fact a remnant of far more ancient pre-Columbian Aztec ceremonies. Again, Lewis and musical director Carlos put together an powerful and eclectic set of songs, including Phil Ochs' The Crucifixion, Graham Lowndes' Rising of the Tide, Jimmy Webb's The Moon's a Harsh Mistress, The Fugs' When the Mode of the Music Changes, Bowie's All the Madmen and Dory Previn's The Game.

Had the album once... lost or stolen somewhere along the way and now almost impossible to get...

[William Kelly]

Sure they could have chopped him in the neck also ....Wendy knew about the other incident somehow but they all could be true. Wendy died of cancer.

Jim

******************************************************

Phil also told about how he wrote Crucifixion about JFK WHILE HE WAS IN ENGLAND AND TALKED WITH SOME FOLKS WHO TOLD HIM THAT IT WAS AN ANCIENT SACRIFICIAL RITUAL TO KILL THE BEST!

Which reminds me of where I read many years ago how the Dallas police found a religious pamphlet next to the Snipers nest that said something about the redemption of Jesus and other weird stuff.Jim

Maybe Gary Mack could tell me. Was there any religious/occult material found near the "Sniper's Nest," as stated above?

Kathy

Hi Kathy,

I would like to add that I read after I posted this above, the Religious leaflet was a "Jesus Saves" message and I think found by the chicken bones... weather the 5th or 5th floor I am not sure.

Another thing about Phil's song "One way ticket home" is he sings about goin to the Theater and then on the plane and he can't wait to get home and watch TV and call friends on the phone.

After some research of the Warren files a couple years ago I found that one of the witnesses in the theater saw a man who acted strange or scared when Oswald was being arrested, And I thought Man, maybe someone told Phil to go to the Texas Theater too.

That was also where the usher Butch Burrows told me in 93 he saw them taken a taller Oswald look- a- like out the side door.

a Dallas cop also stated in the Warren files as I recall that two Dallas Cops he knew went into the Theater but did not come out with the squad that had Lee Oswald arrested.

This Blew my mind because at that time, I was kind of abducted and forced onto a 2nd shadow Hollywood Hootenanny Tour bus near Huntsville and later at a small airport is where the two Dallas cops with the 2nd Oswald in their custody got on with lots of suits and more mean looking characters including David Ferrie who asked me if I knew The man who was getting on at one point.. at the airport or just afterwards... it was George Bush SR. sitting next to Hoover. I recognized Bush from when he was with his son little George in Willowick Ohio when he was just gettin started in the oil Biz and I found out Dresser was the Family connected oil tool company he was connected to in Cleveland. That was around 53 or 54.

The CIA (pre CIA in those days) were playing Spy games with my family I believe before I was Born.

I found out from my uncle Ben that Dads first job as a life guard was at the big rich Country Club in North Columbus Ohio...and I found the founder of the club and Golf Course was Sam Bush, Prescott Bush's Father.

I don't think I told Ferrie that I knew Bush... We both would be Dead I am sure.

That day JFK got shot, I thought I would be next... a scary night and I would have done anything for a one way ticket home myself...but they knew I knew and where to find me so I just kept very quiet so I could make it home.

I wonder if anyone could research if Tommy Gambino knew Phil Ochs.

I read all about how Jimmy Hoffa, Carlos Marcello and Trafficante wanted JFK dead, but they couldn't have engineered what I witnessed and they sure couldn't cover it up.

They did know before the hit that LBJ would get rid of Bobby and all their phones were tapped and even their lawyer Frank Ragano was being spied on.

My suspicion is that one power never mentioned was the Mob's Banker, Meyer Lansky, and his mob had to have ties to Mossad.

The hit not only saved the jobs of LBJ, Hoover but boosted the future of Bush and with JFK gone, Israel got what it wanted, the Bomb.

"While we were standing there, someone brought the word that the President was dead. Even with the large number of people there, you coukd have heard a pin drop. There wasn't a sound. Ithen looked over between someone's feet and there lay a carton of books broken open withg the lid flapped back. Inside the carton was a paperback book and on the cover was 'Christ Leads the Way' with a picture of Jesus." Interview with Luke Mooney, No More Silence, p227.

I believe these were Catholic religious studies books in the Kerygmatic style - which ironically has crucifixion as a central theme...

Speaking of which... I listened to the Jim and Jean version last night on Youtube. Great job! Right up there with my favourite version by Jeannie Lewis.

Tears Of Steel & The Clowning Cavaleras

Jeannie's 3rd record was the ambitious double-album set Tears of Steel & The Clowning Calaveras (1976) which recreated her series of concerts held in November 1975. She drew the initial inspiration for the project from the poem Tears of Steel by Chilean writer Pablo Neruda, and from the 'Day of the Dead' ceremony, held annually in Mexico on the Catholic feast of All Soul's Day. This unique festival, in which people parade with `calaveras' (mock skeletons) in "a burlesque parody of life and death", is ostensibly a Catholic riutal, but is in fact a remnant of far more ancient pre-Columbian Aztec ceremonies. Again, Lewis and musical director Carlos put together an powerful and eclectic set of songs, including Phil Ochs' The Crucifixion, Graham Lowndes' Rising of the Tide, Jimmy Webb's The Moon's a Harsh Mistress, The Fugs' When the Mode of the Music Changes, Bowie's All the Madmen and Dory Previn's The Game.

Had the album once... lost or stolen somewhere along the way and now almost impossible to get...

Gee Greg, Did Luke Mooney REALLY say that? That's pretty incredible, if you ask me. How did Phil know that?

"While we were standing there, someone brought the word that the President was dead. Even with the large number of people there, you coukd have heard a pin drop. There wasn't a sound. I then looked over between someone's feet and there lay a carton of books broken open withg the lid flapped back. Inside the carton was a paperback book and on the cover was 'Christ Leads the Way' with a picture of Jesus."

Interview with Luke Mooney, No More Silence, p227.