Angel Murgado (Angelo Kennedy)

[James Richards]

Just trying to get things straight. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Annie Odio the one who said that the three men had actually come to the door? I also recall that they initially asked for Sarita Odio but when 'married' was mentioned, Annie assumed they were referring to Sylvia. I don't know if any context was put to the 'married' term. Could that mean already married or about to be married? In August of 1964, Sarita married Jim Meier. I do not know if the couple were engaged in September of 1963?

Something else to ponder, the imprisonment of Amador and Sarah Odio did receive some press coverage and the faces of those stories were Sarita and Annie Odio. Given that Sylvia didn't arrive in Dallas until March of 1963, could the Odio visitors have actually been seeking Sarita?

In addition, didn't Amador after his release from the Cuban prison, talk about the letter he received from his daughter?

Like I said, just trying to get things straight.

Annie and Sarita below.

James

Edited November 8, 2005 by James Richards

[Larry Hancock]

James, a couple of references to the letter from Armador Odio...

WC 20, p. 690

also, Exhibit 2 if you have my book CD, which is the HSCA memo on the

interview of Armador Odio.

There is also the interview with Sylvia's Doctor who confirmed her

mentioned the visit prior to the assassination, as I recall she

mentioned it to him because it had her worried about who the men

were and what their motives were...

-- Larry

[Stuart Wexler]

Hi Amaury:

Quick question... we have recent pictures of your father and some of us are wondering if you could post any circa-1963 pictures of your father. That would be much appreciated.

-Stu

[John Simkin]

Murgado now claims he was Angelo, Bernardo de Torres was Leopoldo and Leon was Oswald. Joan Mellen adds: "Angelo had been betrayed by a companion he believed he could trust, a man not so much dedicated to the overthrow of Fidel Castro, as Angelo believed, as involved in arranging for Oswald to be blamed for the murder of the President, what the Odio visit was really about."

The key question concerns why Murgado has waited so long before coming forward with this story. I suppose it could be argued that he did not because he was scared of Bernardo de Torres. However, Torres is still alive and other witnesses have suggested that he is the key reason why they have not told the full story.

Robert Charles-Dunne has suggested that Murgado’s story may be an attempt to discredit Joan Mellen’s book. I find this argument convincing, especially as Tim Gratz has been so keen to push the credibility of Murgado’s evidence.

The three best sources on the Silvia Odio story are Gaeton Fonzi, The Last Investigation (pages 108-116 and 250-259), Dick Russell, The Man Who Knew Too Much (308-311) and Tony Summers, The Kennedy Conspiracy (296-301 and 446-447). All three of these authors interviewed her and came to the conclusion she was telling the truth. G. Robert Blakey also points out that the House Select Committee on Assassinations also believed that she was telling the truth (The Plot to Kill the President, pages 162-165).

I agree that Silvia Odio is telling the truth. This is why:

(1) Her story is corroborated by her sister, Annie Odio, who was in the apartment when they had the visit from Leopoldo, Angel and Leon Oswald.

(2) The day after the visit Silvia received a phone call from Leopoldo. He told her that Leon was a former Marine and that he was an expert marksman. He added that Leon had said “we Cubans, we did not have the guts because we should have assassinated Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs”.

(3) Silvia told the story of Leopoldo, Angel and Leon to her father Amador in a letter a few days after the meeting took place. The letter did not survive but his reply has. In it Amador confirms that she has good reason to be worried by these three men who are not known to him.

(4) Silvia told her story to her psychiatrist, Dr. Burton Einspruch before the assassination took place.

(5) It is also believed Silvia told her story to Father McChann, a Catholic priest in Dallas. See William Kelly’s post on this here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5347

(6) Silvia and Annie both identified Lee Harvey Oswald as Leon when his photograph appeared on the television following the assassination of JFK. However, they did not go to the police with this information. Silvia’s sister, Sarita, told her friend Lucille Connell about these events. She in turn told a friend who passed this information onto the FBI.

In her article for the Key West Citizen (2nd September, 2005) Joan Mellen claims that she is the first person in print to name Bernardo De Torres as Leopoldo. However, as long-term members will know, he was named on this Forum sometime ago. This information also appears on my webpage on Torres. Maybe that is why it was removed from the Goggle database for so long (it is now 1st out of 1,430,000 pages).

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtorres.htm

Of course, I also name Edwin Collins and not Angel Murgado as Angelo.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKcollinsE.htm

My page on Silvia Odio is also ranked first out of 269,000 pages. I have placed a photograph of Bernardo De Torres and Edwin Collins taken in 1963. If she surfs the net she will no doubt come across this page and picture. Maybe she could contacts me and identify Leopoldo and Angel as Torres and Collins.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKodioS.htm

[Tim Gratz]

John, the above information must be carefully evaluated, of course.

Obviously since she included the story in her book, Professor Mellen believed Mr. Murgado was a truth-teller.

I understand David Talbot also interviewed Mr. Murgado. Do you know what he thinks?

[John Simkin]

Obviously since she included the story in her book, Professor Mellen believed Mr. Murgado was a truth-teller.

I understand David Talbot also interviewed Mr. Murgado. Do you know what he thinks?

But Murgado told Joan Mellen a different story to the one he is telling the Forum. During the interview Murgado told Mellen that Bernardo De Torres, Oswald and himself entered the apartment together. This of course fits in with Silvia Odio’s story. It is also not true to say that Joan did not take notes. She did and she has a record of what he said.

I do know what David Talbot thinks about Murgado but it is not up to me to reveal this information. It will of course be clear when he publishes his book on the Kennedy brothers next year. Maybe he will even use information from this thread in the book.

[Tim Gratz]

John it is certainly an interesting story that has developed in front of us in the past few months. Although the Mellen story in the Solares Hill supplement to the Key West Citizen states that the three traveled together it is my understanding that the version in her book is consistent with what Angel Murgado says: that he and deTorres went to the Odio apartment alone and Oswald was already there when they arrived.

If the story in the Citizen correctly summarized her interview with Mr. Murgado, why would she change it for her book?

Edited November 9, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[John Simkin]

John it is certainly an interesting story that has developed in front of us in the past few months. Although the Mellen story in the Solares Hill supplement to the Key West Citizen states that the three traveled together it is my understanding that the version in her book is consistent with what Angel Murgado says: that he and deTorres went to the Odio apartment alone and Oswald was already there when they arrived.

If the story in the Citizen correctly summarized her interview with Mr. Murgado, why would she change it for her book?

What is so interesting is that a Forum provides dates and a chronology of the way information is released. The postings on this Forum will show that Robert Charles-Dunne, Pat Speer and myself were highly suspicious of Murgado’s story from the beginning. We were not alone. I also received emails from several other researchers who shared these views.

My own view was this was part of a campaign to discredit Joan Mellen’s book. That it would be revealed later that Murgado was not telling the truth. I emailed Joan expressing these views. I also communicated them to two other authors who were working on books about the JFK assassination who intended to use Murgado as a source.

According to Tim, Joan has two different versions of the Silvia Odio incident. One in the article and one in the book. The account in the article is consistent with Odio’s own account. The one in the book contradicts Odio’s account.

In other words, the article exposes Bernardo De Torres as someone who helped set up Oswald. That is also my belief and this is reflected in what I had to say about him on my webpage. However, the revised story that appears on this Forum, provides an alibi for De Torres. According to the new story, De Torres was only playing a social visit and like Murgado did not know Oswald. The main beneficiary of this new story is Bernardo De Torres. I suspect that he is the true motivator behind this development.

Bernardo De Torres is an interesting character. His name has rarely appeared in any book as being involved in the assassination. Donald Freed (Death in Washington, page 195) and Taylor Branch & Eugene Propper (Labyrinth, page 185) suggest he might have been involved in the killing of Orlando Letelier. Peter Dale Scott (Deep Politics, page 105) provides evidence that he had links to the CIA and the drug trade.

William Turner (Rearview Mirror, page 143) points out he turned up as a disinformation agent in the Jim Garrison inquiry and that an informant told the HSCA that he was in Dallas on the day JFK was assassinated and had pictures of “Dealey Plaza in a safe-deposit box”. These points are also repeated in James DiEugenio article, Rose Cheramie” that appeared in The Assassinations (page 236).

However, Bernardo De Torres was not looked at in any depth until the publication of Larry Hancock’s Someone Would Have Talked (pages 221-222). It was Larry who revealed that De Torres used the name of Carlos. If that is the case, is Bernardo De Torres the “Carlos” who appears in Gaeton Fonzi’s The Last Investigation (232-241)? Rolando Otero told Fonzi that Carlos was posing as a photographer in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November, 1963. Otero also claimed that Carlos was one of a five men team from Miami who assassinated JFK. Fonzi claims that Carlos was linked to Frank Sturgis and Gerry Hemming via the Anti-Communist Brigade. He also had links to Ken Burnstine, a South Florida real estate developer and Mitch WerBell, the arms dealer.

Fonzi also points out that Carlos turned up in New Orleans to volunteer their services in Jim Garrison’s investigation. Fonzi adds that the HSCA discovered that the CIA planted a number of agents on Garrison’s staff.

Another informant, Ten-One, claimed that Carlos and an associate fitted the description of “Angel” and “Leopoldo”. However, G. Robert Blakey stopped Fonzi from showing the picture of Carlos and his friend to Silvia Odio.

Carlos received a subpoena to testify before the HSCA. What Carlos did not know was that his telephone calls were being monitored. When these were checked it was discovered that one of his first calls after receiving the subpoena was to McLean, Virginia.

[Robert Howard]

John it is certainly an interesting story that has developed in front of us in the past few months. Although the Mellen story in the Solares Hill supplement to the Key West Citizen states that the three traveled together it is my understanding that the version in her book is consistent with what Angel Murgado says: that he and deTorres went to the Odio apartment alone and Oswald was already there when they arrived.

If the story in the Citizen correctly summarized her interview with Mr. Murgado, why would she change it for her book?

What is so interesting is that a Forum provides dates and a chronology of the way information is released. The postings on this Forum will show that Robert Charles-Dunne, Pat Speer and myself were highly suspicious of Murgado’s story from the beginning. We were not alone. I also received emails from several other researchers who shared these views.

My own view was this was part of a campaign to discredit Joan Mellen’s book. That it would be revealed later that Murgado was not telling the truth. I emailed Joan expressing these views. I also communicated them to two other authors who were working on books about the JFK assassination who intended to use Murgado as a source.

According to Tim, Joan has two different versions of the Silvia Odio incident. One in the article and one in the book. The account in the article is consistent with Odio’s own account. The one in the book contradicts Odio’s account.

In other words, the article exposes Bernardo De Torres as someone who helped set up Oswald. That is also my belief and this is reflected in what I had to say about him on my webpage. However, the revised story that appears on this Forum, provides an alibi for De Torres. According to the new story, De Torres was only playing a social visit and like Murgado did not know Oswald. The main beneficiary of this new story is Bernardo De Torres. I suspect that he is the true motivator behind this development.

Bernardo De Torres is an interesting character. His name has rarely appeared in any book as being involved in the assassination. Donald Freed (Death in Washington, page 195) and Taylor Branch & Eugene Propper (Labyrinth, page 185) suggest he might have been involved in the killing of Orlando Letelier. Peter Dale Scott (Deep Politics, page 105) provides evidence that he had links to the CIA and the drug trade.

William Turner (Rearview Mirror, page 143) points out he turned up as a disinformation agent in the Jim Garrison inquiry and that an informant told the HSCA that he was in Dallas on the day JFK was assassinated and had pictures of “Dealey Plaza in a safe-deposit box”. These points are also repeated in James DiEugenio article, Rose Cheramie” that appeared in The Assassinations (page 236).

However, Bernardo De Torres was not looked at in any depth until the publication of Larry Hancock’s Someone Would Have Talked (pages 221-222). It was Larry who revealed that De Torres used the name of Carlos. If that is the case, is Bernardo De Torres the “Carlos” who appears in Gaeton Fonzi’s The Last Investigation (232-241)? Rolando Otero told Fonzi that Carlos was posing as a photographer in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November, 1963. Otero also claimed that Carlos was one of a five men team from Miami who assassinated JFK. Fonzi claims that Carlos was linked to Frank Sturgis and Gerry Hemming via the Anti-Communist Brigade. He also had links to Ken Burnstine, a South Florida real estate developer and Mitch WerBell, the arms dealer.

Fonzi also points out that Carlos turned up in New Orleans to volunteer their services in Jim Garrison’s investigation. Fonzi adds that the HSCA discovered that the CIA planted a number of agents on Garrison’s staff.

Another informant, Ten-One, claimed that Carlos and an associate fitted the description of “Angel” and “Leopoldo”. However, G. Robert Blakey stopped Fonzi from showing the picture of Carlos and his friend to Silvia Odio.

Carlos received a subpoena to testify before the HSCA. What Carlos did not know was that his telephone calls were being monitored. When these were checked it was discovered that one of his first calls after receiving the subpoena was to McLean, Virginia.

Another informant, Ten-One, claimed that Carlos and an associate fitted the description of “Angel” and “Leopoldo”. However, G. Robert Blakey stopped Fonzi from showing the picture of Carlos and his friend to Silvia Odio.

At the risk of being controversial, I would mention that G. Robt. Blakey's name crops up several times in AFTJ in most unflattering terms. If the above paragraph is correct, I would urge Forum members to connect the dots, and draw the obvious inference. Accordingly, past experience has taught me and others an important lesson.

1. When an extremly critical aspect of information related to the assassination is delved into such as the Odio story.....

2. And there are a myriad of conjectures across the board that contradict each other......

3. You can be damn sure that what you are looking at is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, and MUST form your conclusions, carefully and with EXTREME attention to detail. Case in Point

Oswald Talked - "It takes a Woman to Know," Counterpoint/Rebuttal "What the LaFontaines Didn't Tell You" see Link

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/odio1.txt

I think the above cited conflict is an example of poor research by the LaFontaines rather than deliberate disinformation on either party's part, but the LaFontaine story does offer some interesting points, i.e. Sarita.

I would like to hear what Larry Hancock makes of all of this, and is certainly invited to jump in and offer his analysis, "Did Oswald attend any anti-Castro meetings in Dallas, (I am aware of the meetings Oswald attended with Edwin Walker present on Oct. 23 and the ACLU meeting the next evening with Michael Paine, but these weren't Alpha 66 meetings, obviously. I suspect John is absolutely right about the so-called "discrepancies" in Mellen's book. I.E. Differences in the Solares Hill, article and final version of AFTJ, if, and obviously there is a difference in the versions, I think it is only common sense to interpret this as Joan taking the right path, remember the allegation that she conducted the interview without being "sufficiently prepared" shall we say is classic B.S. deception, a/k/a when youre close to the truth, lie like hell, let the researcher beware.

Edited November 9, 2005 by Robert Howard

[Larry Hancock]

John, I can verify from discussions with Fonzi that "Carlos" was a code name assigned to de Torres because the HSCA had to agree to interview him under cofidentiality. Actually Joan Mellen describes some of the interesting restraints that they were placed under even for that interview. As I recall "Carlos" may have been Bernardo's brothers name (haven't looked that up this morning but it rings a bell). So indeed one can read Gaeton's book and equate Carlos with Bernardo.

As to Tim's question, Joan does not recant the entire story Murgado story as initially described but clearly as an author she has to responsibility to integrate qualifying remarks at her sources request and has done so. On page 381 she comments that "It may seem that Mr. Murgado is distancing himself from Oswald, whom he acknowledges, however that he had him under surveillance."

As I read it she has not changed anything in regard to de Torres or his call back to Sylvia...and as usual I would encourage everyone to read Joan's book and evaluate this all for themselves. Joan has some fascinating pieces of information including an interview with Dr. Silva at East La Hospital (Bill Kelly will enjoy this) who talks about Oswald behaving wildly during his visit there and "ranting about killing Fidel Castro".

This is extremely important information and the Silva interview is a very important piece of work.

-- Larry

John it is certainly an interesting story that has developed in front of us in the past few months. Although the Mellen story in the Solares Hill supplement to the Key West Citizen states that the three traveled together it is my understanding that the version in her book is consistent with what Angel Murgado says: that he and deTorres went to the Odio apartment alone and Oswald was already there when they arrived.

If the story in the Citizen correctly summarized her interview with Mr. Murgado, why would she change it for her book?

What is so interesting is that a Forum provides dates and a chronology of the way information is released. The postings on this Forum will show that Robert Charles-Dunne, Pat Speer and myself were highly suspicious of Murgado’s story from the beginning. We were not alone. I also received emails from several other researchers who shared these views.

My own view was this was part of a campaign to discredit Joan Mellen’s book. That it would be revealed later that Murgado was not telling the truth. I emailed Joan expressing these views. I also communicated them to two other authors who were working on books about the JFK assassination who intended to use Murgado as a source.

According to Tim, Joan has two different versions of the Silvia Odio incident. One in the article and one in the book. The account in the article is consistent with Odio’s own account. The one in the book contradicts Odio’s account.

In other words, the article exposes Bernardo De Torres as someone who helped set up Oswald. That is also my belief and this is reflected in what I had to say about him on my webpage. However, the revised story that appears on this Forum, provides an alibi for De Torres. According to the new story, De Torres was only playing a social visit and like Murgado did not know Oswald. The main beneficiary of this new story is Bernardo De Torres. I suspect that he is the true motivator behind this development.

Bernardo De Torres is an interesting character. His name has rarely appeared in any book as being involved in the assassination. Donald Freed (Death in Washington, page 195) and Taylor Branch & Eugene Propper (Labyrinth, page 185) suggest he might have been involved in the killing of Orlando Letelier. Peter Dale Scott (Deep Politics, page 105) provides evidence that he had links to the CIA and the drug trade.

William Turner (Rearview Mirror, page 143) points out he turned up as a disinformation agent in the Jim Garrison inquiry and that an informant told the HSCA that he was in Dallas on the day JFK was assassinated and had pictures of “Dealey Plaza in a safe-deposit box”. These points are also repeated in James DiEugenio article, Rose Cheramie” that appeared in The Assassinations (page 236).

However, Bernardo De Torres was not looked at in any depth until the publication of Larry Hancock’s Someone Would Have Talked (pages 221-222). It was Larry who revealed that De Torres used the name of Carlos. If that is the case, is Bernardo De Torres the “Carlos” who appears in Gaeton Fonzi’s The Last Investigation (232-241)? Rolando Otero told Fonzi that Carlos was posing as a photographer in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November, 1963. Otero also claimed that Carlos was one of a five men team from Miami who assassinated JFK. Fonzi claims that Carlos was linked to Frank Sturgis and Gerry Hemming via the Anti-Communist Brigade. He also had links to Ken Burnstine, a South Florida real estate developer and Mitch WerBell, the arms dealer.

Fonzi also points out that Carlos turned up in New Orleans to volunteer their services in Jim Garrison’s investigation. Fonzi adds that the HSCA discovered that the CIA planted a number of agents on Garrison’s staff.

Another informant, Ten-One, claimed that Carlos and an associate fitted the description of “Angel” and “Leopoldo”. However, G. Robert Blakey stopped Fonzi from showing the picture of Carlos and his friend to Silvia Odio.

Carlos received a subpoena to testify before the HSCA. What Carlos did not know was that his telephone calls were being monitored. When these were checked it was discovered that one of his first calls after receiving the subpoena was to McLean, Virginia.

[Gerry Hemming]

John, I can verify from discussions with Fonzi that "Carlos" was a code name assigned to

de Torres because the HSCA had to agree to interview him under cofidentiality. Actually

Joan Mellen describes some of the interesting restraints that they were placed under even

for that interview. As I recall "Carlos" may have been Bernardo's brothers name (haven't

looked that up this morning but it rings a bell). So indeed one can read Gaeton's book and

equate Carlos with Bernardo.

As to Tim's question, Joan does not recant the entire story Murgado story as initially

described but clearly as an author she has to responsibility to integrate qualifying remarks at her

sources request and has done so. On page 381 she comments that "It may seem that Mr.

Murgado is distancing himself from Oswald, whom he acknowledges, however that he had

him under surveillance."

As I read it she has not changed anything in regard to de Torres or his call back to Sylvia.

...and as usual I would encourage everyone to read Joan's book and evaluate this

all for themselves. Joan has some fascinating pieces of information including an interview

with Dr. Silva at East La Hospital (Bill Kelly will enjoy this) who talks about Oswald behaving

wildly during his visit there and "ranting about killing Fidel Castro".

This is extremely important information and the Silva interview is a very important piece of

work.

-- Larry

John it is certainly an interesting story that has developed in front of us in the past few months. Although the Mellen story in the Solares Hill supplement to the Key West Citizen states that the three traveled together it is my understanding that the version in her book is consistent with what Angel Murgado says: that he and deTorres went to the Odio apartment alone and Oswald was already there when they arrived.

If the story in the Citizen correctly summarized her interview with Mr. Murgado, why would she change it for her book?

What is so interesting is that a Forum provides dates and a chronology of the way information is released. The postings on this Forum will show that Robert Charles-Dunne, Pat Speer and myself were highly suspicious of Murgado’s story from the beginning. We were not alone. I also received emails from several other researchers who shared these views.

My own view was this was part of a campaign to discredit Joan Mellen’s book. That it would be revealed later that Murgado was not telling the truth. I emailed Joan expressing these views. I also communicated them to two other authors who were working on books about the JFK assassination who intended to use Murgado as a source.

According to Tim, Joan has two different versions of the Silvia Odio incident. One in the article and one in the book. The account in the article is consistent with Odio’s own account. The one in the book contradicts Odio’s account.

In other words, the article exposes Bernardo De Torres as someone who helped set up Oswald. That is also my belief and this is reflected in what I had to say about him on my webpage. However, the revised story that appears on this Forum, provides an alibi for De Torres. According to the new story, De Torres was only playing a social visit and like Murgado did not know Oswald. The main beneficiary of this new story is Bernardo De Torres. I suspect that he is the true motivator behind this development.

Bernardo De Torres is an interesting character. His name has rarely appeared in any book as being involved in the assassination. Donald Freed (Death in Washington, page 195) and Taylor Branch & Eugene Propper (Labyrinth, page 185) suggest he might have been involved in the killing of Orlando Letelier. Peter Dale Scott (Deep Politics, page 105) provides evidence that he had links to the CIA and the drug trade.

William Turner (Rearview Mirror, page 143) points out he turned up as a disinformation agent in the Jim Garrison inquiry and that an informant told the HSCA that he was in Dallas on the day JFK was assassinated and had pictures of “Dealey Plaza in a safe-deposit box”. These points are also repeated in James DiEugenio article, Rose Cheramie” that appeared in The Assassinations (page 236).

However, Bernardo De Torres was not looked at in any depth until the publication of Larry Hancock’s Someone Would Have Talked (pages 221-222). It was Larry who revealed that De Torres used the name of Carlos. If that is the case, is Bernardo De Torres the “Carlos” who appears in Gaeton Fonzi’s The Last Investigation (232-241)? Rolando Otero told Fonzi that Carlos was posing as a photographer in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November, 1963. Otero also claimed that Carlos was one of a five men team from Miami who assassinated JFK. Fonzi claims that Carlos was linked to Frank Sturgis and Gerry Hemming via the Anti-Communist Brigade. He also had links to Ken Burnstine, a South Florida real estate developer and Mitch WerBell, the arms dealer.

Fonzi also points out that Carlos turned up in New Orleans to volunteer their services in Jim Garrison’s investigation. Fonzi adds that the HSCA discovered that the CIA planted a number of agents on Garrison’s staff.

Another informant, Ten-One, claimed that Carlos and an associate fitted the description of “Angel” and “Leopoldo”. However, G. Robert Blakey stopped Fonzi from showing the picture of Carlos and his friend to Silvia Odio.

Carlos received a subpoena to testify before the HSCA. What Carlos did not know was that his telephone calls were being monitored. When these were checked it was discovered that one of his first calls after receiving the subpoena was to McLean, Virginia.

-------------------------------------

Larry: This is the same Larry who has exchanged e-mails with me over many years ??

I will make this short and unsweetened. I'm sorry that you've been spoofed by some phony Hargraves/Twyman transcripts, etc. !! I arranged for the interviews,and set ALL of the rules that would be adhered to. The agreement was that ALL interviews would be held ONLY at my brother's law offices; would be recorded both by tape and paid outside & certified court reporter (Steno) who would execute a sworn & notarized statement (Affidavit) that she had not only NOT ever worked for my brother, but had never even been to the offices prior thereto.

ALL present at every session agreed that attorney/client privileged had been invoked, as Hargraves still feared a murder charge in California. Said homicide allegation centered on the Black Panther (FBI-MH/Chaos informant) who later died of burns subsequent to being blown out through a plate glass window by Roy "Baby Bomber" Hargraves IED.

[Hargraves was christened as "Baby Bomber" after the Miami News whined that Luis Balbuena's young child had been in the rear bedroom when Hargraves and "Bayo's" dynamite/hand grenade exploded on the front porch. Balbuena, known as "Gordo" was a DGI agent who penetrated the ONI operations at GITMO, and thereafter compromised several of "Bayo's" missions. Balbuena caused the arrest and courtsmartial of two Marine officers who were later convicted of killing a suspected DGI agent on the navy base. Said deceased/victim? in actuality was Balbuena's prime DGI corier at GITMO, and confessed to same. That is: just before he escaped through the barbed wire, and was killed by Castro LCB troops while still inside the Castro minefield surrounding GITMO !!]

At the time of Roy's interviews, we was a fugitive from justice [from Florida], "hiding-in-plain-sight" under his pre-adoptive birth name, Mings -- in Hemet, California.

His daughter removed his hard-drive and recovered ALL journals with an hour of his death on Easter Sunday.

As per stipulation: My brother holds ALL original materials, includings steno tapes and recordings. My brother is completely aware of the Weberman tactic of instigating a libel suit in order that the cause of action might serve as as a fishing expedition; mainly because we taught Weberman this tactic. It this matter it will fail, as there will never be any libel suits, however: there will, without a doubt, be grand jury subpoenas issued in abundance.

"Carlos" was a "literary pseudonym" for Bernie, and was never used by anybody associated with the HSCA, CIA,YMCA, et al. !!

I "outed" Bernie for the Letelier murder at a briefing held at DEA/HQ, Koger Center, Miami on a Sunday afternoon [1977]. De Torres "bailed" upon our arrival at the ATF parking lot, and ran away and telephoned Janet Reno at her home on Kendall Drive within the hour.

Present at my DEA/HQ briefing were Eugene Propper (A/US-Atty, D.C.); Lawrence Barcella (A/US-Atty, D.C.); FBI S/A Carter Kornick; FBI S/A Kevin Walsh; Newsday reporter John Cummings (on deep background) and others. Propper, et al. had been ORDERED to fly to Miami for that briefing by two powerful Democrat Senators.

I briefed on exactly (step-by-step) how the plot emerged, and up to the placing of the IED. Moreover, I explained that should they not ALL be fired from their employ within days of this briefing, somewhere down the line an 'OSWALD" would be surfaced. S/A Carter Kornick was the only person present who didn't laugh.

ONE of the LHOs has been Michael Townley, who currently remains in the "Alias Program" [Witness Protection Program] !!

Gene Propper opted to use "pseudos" for Bernie ["TB" & "Tomboy"] when covering classifed areas in his book "Labyrinth"; whilst Gaeton opted spontaneously [sua sponte] to employ "Carlos" and thereby not violate his HSCA N.D.A.s !!

Don Freed tried his best writing "..Embassy Row"; and was not surprised to hear [during one of our telephone chats] that L.I.E.U. ("Chairman") Lt. Hendricks of the Long Beach Police Dept. had instructed Hargraves to set him up for a grenades/explosives "sting" arrest during 1968.

So Larry, when to we get to see copies of these Hargraves forgeries. His surviving family is very much interested in same !!

Chairs,

GPH

____________________________

[Joan Mellen]

John it is certainly an interesting story that has developed in front of us in the past few months. Although the Mellen story in the Solares Hill supplement to the Key West Citizen states that the three traveled together it is my understanding that the version in her book is consistent with what Angel Murgado says: that he and deTorres went to the Odio apartment alone and Oswald was already there when they arrived.

If the story in the Citizen correctly summarized her interview with Mr. Murgado, why would she change it for her book?

Angelo Murgado says, repeat says, that Oswald was there when he arrived. This is attributed to him, not to me. He is on the record as saying Oswald was already there. So I must say he says that is what happened....HE SAYS.....Fairness decreed that I give his side of the story. So I added the attribution: HE CLAIMS. HE SAYS.

[Larry Hancock]

Larry: This is the same Larry who has exchanged e-mails with me over many years ??

I will make this short and unsweetened. I'm sorry that you've been spoofed by some phony Hargraves/Twyman transcripts, etc. !! I arranged for the interviews,and set ALL of the rules that would be adhered to. The agreement was that ALL interviews would be held ONLY at my brother's law offices; would be recorded both by tape and paid outside & certified court reporter (Steno) who would execute a sworn & notarized statement (Affidavit) that she had not only NOT ever worked for my brother, but had never even been to the offices prior thereto.

Hi Gerry, yep its the same Larry from your email list...couldn't seem to add this in the correct thread so I'll put it here.

.....to clarify a bit, what I have in my possession are the transcripts from a tape recorded session with Roy and and your brother. The transcript seems to cover the arrangements for the taping and the agreement for the interview with Roy.... the transcript was provided by Noel Twyman who related to me the circumstances and fee arrangement for the interview etc. If there is any spoofing being done it would have to be directly from Noel who holds the tapes of the interviews and the transcripts. Do I understand that you or Roy's family have made legal representations to Noel Twyman over this material? Is it true that Roy did not encourage Noel to publish material from the interview in a new edition of his book as the transcript relates?

-- Larry

[Gerry Hemming]

Larry: This is the same Larry who has exchanged e-mails with me over many years ??

I will make this short and unsweetened. I'm sorry that you've been spoofed by some phony Hargraves/Twyman transcripts, etc. !! I arranged for the interviews,and set ALL of the rules that would be adhered to. The agreement was that ALL interviews would be held ONLY at my brother's law offices; would be recorded both by tape and paid outside & certified court reporter (Steno) who would execute a sworn & notarized statement (Affidavit) that she had not only NOT ever worked for my brother, but had never even been to the offices prior thereto.

Hi Gerry, yep its the same Larry from your email list...couldn't seem to add this in the correct thread so I'll put it here.

.....to clarify a bit, what I have in my possession are the transcripts from a tape recorded session with Roy and and your brother. The transcript seems to cover the arrangements for the taping and the agreement for the interview with Roy.... the transcript was provided by Noel Twyman who related to me the circumstances and fee arrangement for the interview etc. If there is any spoofing being done it would have to be directly from Noel who holds the tapes of the interviews and the transcripts. Do I understand that you or Roy's family have made legal representations to Noel Twyman over this material? Is it true that Roy did not encourage Noel to publish material from the interview in a new edition of his book as the transcript relates?

-- Larry

------------------------------

Larry:

I haven't spoken with Noel in years, in fact many researchers told me he had died. One suggested that he might have joined with a 2nd "Heavens Gate" trek to the great UFO hiding behind comets in the northern skies.

As you know, the 1st H.G. "Trekkers" were neighbors of his, who had leased a palatial home in the closed compound "Rancho" community north of San Diego.

I warned my brother to discreetly advise Noel that: after the "controlled" interviews, Roy, always the hustler, would attempt to bilk the old man out of a large chunk of buck$ in the near term. He began this very scheme within weeks of the final interviews at my brother's law offices.

He was so sure of his abilties at inventing some new Dealey Plaza confabulation, he asked my brother to contact a family member -- who was then a Florida prosecutor, engineer an attempt to quash the warrants, enter a nolo contendere plea -- which would be based upon his swearing to re-imburse the thousands of dollars he wrote bad checks on.

Perhaps he indeed "spoofed" Twyman out of considerable cash, I don't know; but his newly found Mings family heard him boast oftentimes of this fait acompli !! Roy was heavily addicted to Heroin, and frequently drank to excess, so most of the family ignored his boasting.

Others were shocked and dismayed that he would go along with Twyman's fervent agenda of placing both Felipe Vidal Santiago and he on the scene that day. Moreover, others were stunned that he failed to name one of his sons after Felipe, as I did. It was soon apparent that Felipe had been conned just as bad as Rosemarie Vernell had been. Twyman's strange impetus against Felipe began with Escalante's bullxxxx stories in nassau.

[Many thought it was strange that an engineer who retired from the CIA controlled Bechtel Corp. would scribble a JFK conspiracy tome while approaching his senior 70s]

Rosemarie Vernell was a CIA asset who infrequently penetrated the RFK/JFK millieu during 1962. While the "2nd Unit" of the movie production company was filming "PT-109" at a locale just south of No Name key; "Dutch" Henry [2nd Unit Director] sent Ms. Vernell to No name asking us to lunch on the set.

Once there, "Dutch" asked us to honor our pledge to RFK that we would not hijack the 2 ex-coast guard ASR-81 boats which had been converted to resemble WWII PT Boats. He further stated that, however: once the film was "in the can" it wouldn't be bad publicity if said "PT Boats [both painted with bow numbers "109" actually were "hijacked" and used on a raid into Cuba. RFK didn't think that was very funny.

Rosemarie's brother, Louis Vernell, was an aide to Meyer lanskey. and was in and out of trouble [and the press] into the 1980s.

Hargraves opted to abandon No name, and thereafter "shack-up" with Rosemarie at the Alqazar hotel on Biscayne Blvd. -- where she was the boss P.R. person. Roy serviced her and was paid to write poetry [some of it good] which was placed with the napkin holders on the dining room tables. I actually spent a few freebies there, but due to the "Crisis" crap -- I had business elsewhere.

Hargraves was banished forever from No Name soon, and he was labled "A Poet and City Commando" by Whatley and others. When he made one attempt to return to No name, Whatley invited him to a duel, Dick's "Arkansas Toothpick" [large Bowie Knife - which he threw very expertly] versus Roy's unholstered .45 Colt.

[This was long before "Magnificent 7" and Coburn's famous knife bit].

Bobby Willis stood as "second" [as the sun went down", and held a pistol at his side to take out Roy if he won. Little Joe Garman had his Springfield "03" pointed at the back of Bobby's head to prevent said retaliation. Jim Lewis had a carbine pointed from the shadows at little Joe. I had a cocked "Tommy Gun" with a full 30 round magazine; declared the duel as a draw, and placed hargraves on a boat "out-of-Dodge" !!

I am in very infrequent contact with Roy's daughter & Son-in-Law, but he is learned in the law; and sure as hell will not permit his kids grandfather to be portrayed as a DP participant. Moreover, he has a degree in computer engineering -- is a skilled "hacker-hunter'; and therefore knows how to arrange the full panoply of DOS, worm, keylogger, trojan, etc. operations.

Moreover, he is extremely violent when aroused, as I witnessed when he almost beat a meter reader to death for spraying his dog with pepper spray. I doubt that if I learned of their intentions reference the matter, I would ever be inclined to disclose same. More importantly, I would take more serious precautions in this instance than I would ever in the case of even Bernardo de Torres. "Watch Your 6" is the byword to all concerned !!

Saludos,

GPH

__________________________

[John Simkin]

John it is certainly an interesting story that has developed in front of us in the past few months. Although the Mellen story in the Solares Hill supplement to the Key West Citizen states that the three traveled together it is my understanding that the version in her book is consistent with what Angel Murgado says: that he and deTorres went to the Odio apartment alone and Oswald was already there when they arrived.

If the story in the Citizen correctly summarized her interview with Mr. Murgado, why would she change it for her book?

Angelo Murgado says, repeat says, that Oswald was there when he arrived. This is attributed to him, not to me. He is on the record as saying Oswald was already there. So I must say he says that is what happened....HE SAYS.....Fairness decreed that I give his side of the story. So I added the attribution: HE CLAIMS. HE SAYS.

Any comments Tim?