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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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[...]

[...]

Here is a direct link to a thread containing static images and moving Gifs ot the man and the area in question.

It's a long thread with many interesting diversions and fantastic graphical analysis by some of the most talented and dedicated photo analysis people in the JFK community.

Here is one example of the standard of stabilized Gif construction which is a major feature at my forum.

This one shows clearly the man in question, and Baker running towards the entrance.

Credit Gerda Dunckel

prayermandesh12fps100c4k1m.gif

Enjoy the thread - Link Below

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,6724.0.html

Has anyone noticed the person who slowly stands up or goes up one step, backwards, in front of "Prayer Man?"

Also, notice the suit-wearing man at the base of the steps who waves Baker up the steps with his left hand and pivots out of the way. Could that be Truly?

--Tommy :sun

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Edited by Thomas Graves
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Hello Pat

I recall seeing a photo of the 5th floor landing, between lower and upper staircases, in the TSBD. In that photo, a large "5" was painted on the wall where anyone going up or down the stairs could not miss it.

Are you familiar with that photo, and is it possible each of the floors was so marked?

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If Oswald was on the 1st floor at the time of the assassination AND on the 2nd floor when Officer Baker stopped him with a Coke in his hand AND Oswald obtained change for the Coke machine on a daily basis from Miss Hine (or Mrs. Reid? no one seems to clarify exactly who he got change from),

BK: HE GOT THE CHANGE FROM MRS. HINE, WHOSE DESK WAS CLOSEST TO THE DOOR.

this leaves us with a couple of questions to contemplate.

1. Where did he get change from on that day to buy a Coke, if he regularly received change from Mrs. Reid? (SIC MRS. HINE)

bk: ACCORDING TO SOME REPORTS OUT OF DALLAS ROBERT GRODEN TALKED TO MRS HINE AND SHE CONFIRMED TO HIM THAT SHE GAVE OSWALD CHANGE AROUND THE TIME THE SHOTS RANG OUT - SO HE COULDN'T HAVE SHOT THEM, A FACT THAT MAY BE IN THE NEXT EDITION OF GRODEN'S BOOK DUE OUT SOON. STAY TUNED.

2. If he had to stop to get change from Miss Hine, before purchasing his Coke, would that not make him late for his appointment with Officer Baker, considering the split second timing we are dealing with here? Remember, the WC themselves only gave Oswald 90 seconds from the time of the last shot to be on the 2nd floor and seen by Baker.

BK; OSWALD DIDN'T HAVE AN APPOINTMENT WITH BAKER - IT WAS A COINCIDENTAL RENDEZVOUS - IF OSWALD OR BAKER WERE SECONDS SLOWER OR FASTER, BAKER WOULD HAVE MISSED OSWALD WALKING PAST THE WINDOW OF THE SECOND FLOOR LUNCHROOM DOOR - AND WOULD HAVE CONTINUED UP THE STEPS BEHIND TRULY AND LIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT FOR EVERYBODY.

BK: I DON''T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION RE: SIGNS DESIGNATION EACH FLOOR. BUT I HAVE ADDED ANOTHER BLOG POST ON THE SUBJECT OF MRS. HINE AND THE PUBLISHERS:

JFKCountercoup2: Geneva Hine and TSBD Book Publishers

Edited by William Kelly
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Great work, Sean, for which many thanks. Keep going.

It's worth recalling that there were two powerful additional incentives for the FBI to embark upon hasty revisions - the objective of which was simply to banish Oswald from the doorway of the TSBD almost irrespective of the problems this initial change brought with it - during the late afternoon of November 22:

1) the Parkland doctors' press conference on Kennedy, which insisted upon a shot (or shots) from the front;

2) and Altgens 6 (specifically, the identity of doorway man).

The second consideration above does not require the reader to accept the identification of the patsy as doorway man; merely, rather, to have the honesty to acknowledge what is plainly true from the FBI's own internal documentation - the question was, at that juncture, unresolved, at least to the Bureau's satisfaction.

The cover-up is, after all, a process, not an event, with many errors, early inadequacies, and/or improvisations, many of them subsequently abandoned.

Paul

Thanks very much, Paul.

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If Oswald was on the 1st floor at the time of the assassination AND on the 2nd floor when Officer Baker stopped him with a Coke in his hand AND Oswald obtained change for the Coke machine on a daily basis from Miss Hine (or Mrs. Reid? no one seems to clarify exactly who he got change from),

BK: HE GOT THE CHANGE FROM MRS. HINE, WHOSE DESK WAS CLOSEST TO THE DOOR.

this leaves us with a couple of questions to contemplate.

1. Where did he get change from on that day to buy a Coke, if he regularly received change from Mrs. Reid? (SIC MRS. HINE)

bk: ACCORDING TO SOME REPORTS OUT OF DALLAS ROBERT GRODEN TALKED TO MRS HINE AND SHE CONFIRMED TO HIM THAT SHE GAVE OSWALD CHANGE AROUND THE TIME THE SHOTS RANG OUT - SO HE COULDN'T HAVE SHOT THEM, A FACT THAT MAY BE IN THE NEXT EDITION OF GRODEN'S BOOK DUE OUT SOON. STAY TUNED.

2. If he had to stop to get change from Miss Hine, before purchasing his Coke, would that not make him late for his appointment with Officer Baker, considering the split second timing we are dealing with here? Remember, the WC themselves only gave Oswald 90 seconds from the time of the last shot to be on the 2nd floor and seen by Baker.

BK; OSWALD DIDN'T HAVE AN APPOINTMENT WITH BAKER - IT WAS A COINCIDENTAL RENDEZVOUS - IF OSWALD OR BAKER WERE SECONDS SLOWER OR FASTER, BAKER WOULD HAVE MISSED OSWALD WALKING PAST THE WINDOW OF THE SECOND FLOOR LUNCHROOM DOOR - AND WOULD HAVE CONTINUED UP THE STEPS BEHIND TRULY AND LIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT FOR EVERYBODY.

BK: I DON''T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION RE: SIGNS DESIGNATION EACH FLOOR. BUT I HAVE ADDED ANOTHER BLOG POST ON THE SUBJECT OF MRS. HINE AND THE PUBLISHERS:

JFKCountercoup2: Geneva Hine and TSBD Book Publishers

Hello Bill

Yes, if Mrs. (Miss?) Hine gave change to Oswald that day, it would certainly change everything. I seriously doubt that Prayer Man could be Oswald if this were true, as I cannot see Oswald having enough time to not only go up to the 2nd floor and purchase a Coke, but to obtain change from Ms. Hine before doing so. This is supported by the fact that Prayer Man is still at the entrance to the TSBD as Baker is running up the stairs. Even if Oswald took the front stairs up to the 2nd floor and Baker and Truly took the far stairs, the distance to their meeting point would be almost identical. The only edge Oswald might have is that Truly and Baker stopped long enough to establish the elevators were not working and, with the elevators directly beside the stairwell, this would not have slowed them down much.

If Baker and Truly were faster or slower, there is a good chance they would not have encountered the man on the 3rd or 4th floor, either.

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According to Captain Will Fritz's interrogation report, prepared for the WC, Lee Oswald claimed to have been on the first floor at the time of the assassination but that "he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola when the officer came in".

FBI Agent James Bookhout's solo second account of Oswald's first interrogation has Oswald makes a near-identical claim: "at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there."

If Oswald really made these claims, then either he was lying or else Marion Baker was lying about the circumstances under which he first glimpsed Oswald on the second floor. This is because Baker's story to the WC involves Oswald's being en route into the second-floor lunchroom, not being already inside it at or near the coke machine.

The fact that both Fritz and Bookhout's reports speak of Oswald not as having been on his way to buy a coke but as being already in possession of one should give pause to any conspiracy-oriented researcher minded to cite those reports as compelling evidence that Oswald confirmed the story Baker would tell to the WC.

**

I submit that both Fritz and Bookhout really did hear Oswald say he was drinking a coca-cola, which he had just purchased from the machine in the second-floor lunchroom, when an officer came in with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. But the officer was not coming into the lunchroom, he was coming into the building.

And I submit that Oswald, in saying these things, was telling the truth.

**

In March 1964 the managing editor of the Dallas Morning News gathered together the personal recollections of fifty-one press people relating to the assassination and its aftermath.

DMN reporter Kent Biffle was one of these fifty-one. Included in his piece is the moment when Roy Truly alerted the police to the 'missing' status of employee Lee Oswald. Biffle then adds the following fact:

"The [TSBD] superintendent [Truly] would recall later that he & a policeman met Oswald as they charged into the building after the shots were fired."

As they charged into the building.

Not: as they charged up the building.

Not: as they charged through the building.

As they charged into it.

**

I submit once again that the posture of Prayer Man's arms in the Darnell film indicates clearly that he must be holding something--and that we have strong reasons for identifying this man as Lee Oswald holding the very bottle of coca-cola that will find itself transplanted in time and space by Fritz and Bookhout.

prayermandesh12fps100c4k1m.gif

**

To summarise where we are so far:

a ) Oswald did exactly what his co-workers Billy Lovelady and Harold Norman had done several minutes earlier that day: gone up to the second-floor lunchroom to buy a Coca-Cola to go with his lunch

b ) Oswald informed Fritz of this pre-assassination visit to the lunchroom

c ) The Bookhout/Hosty joint report accurately reflected this fact

d ) Bookhout later wrote a solo report in order to bury this fact by ‘clarifying’ what (the now dead) Oswald had actually said

e ) Fritz weeks later 'confirmed' Oswald's 'confirmation' of the apocryphal lunchroom incident.

Were it not for Harry Holmes’ delightfully ‘off-message’ comments in his Warren Commission testimony, as well as Carolyn Arnold’s later insistence that she had seen Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom before the assassination, the switch from front entrance to second-floor lunchroom would probably have remained undetected.

Edited by Sean Murphy
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If Baker and Truly were faster or slower, there is a good chance they would not have encountered the man on the 3rd or 4th floor, either.

Was there an encounter with a man by the rear stairway on the 3rd or 4th floor?

That's the next question we need to explore.

Hello Sean

I've looked just about everywhere I can think of for that photo of the 5th floor stair entrance in the TSBD with the large "5" painted on the wall, to no avail. It would seem to make sense that the other floors would also have their own number somewhere on the wall to let people know which floor they were on.

As I said before, Baker only went up one flight of stairs before encountering Oswald. How could he possibly believe he was on the 3rd or 4th floor?

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According to Armstrong and Bakers first day affadavit there was a meeting on the third

Or fourth floor involving Truly and a man in a tan jacket.

Officer Denham arrested a man on the third/fourth floor acting suspiciously

Also seen by sawyer and officer Hill and is in Trenthams report!

FLORER/BRADEN were apprehended acter third floor incidents.

If they can switch floors how much more difficult to switch buildings?

Denham was on traffic at Elm and Houston is there a mix up useful to

Confuse like all the double evidence we see right through this case?

If prayer man is Oswald then Baker did not recognise him on three occassions

The stairs outside ,the lunchroom and sitting next to him when giving his

First day affadavit?. And why would Truly run ahead of an officer with gun drawn

Whilst he could possibly encounter a gunman coming down. He could have been caught

In a crossfire himself. Unless of course he knew something at that time others did not.

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According to Captain Will Fritz's interrogation report, prepared for the WC, Lee Oswald claimed to have been on the first floor at the time of the assassination but that "he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola when the officer came in".

FBI Agent James Bookhout's solo second account of Oswald's first interrogation has Oswald makes a near-identical claim: "at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there."

If Oswald really made these claims, then either he was lying or else Marion Baker was lying about the circumstances under which he first glimpsed Oswald on the second floor. This is because Baker's story to the WC involves Oswald's being en route into the second-floor lunchroom, not being already inside it at or near the coke machine.

The fact that both Fritz and Bookhout's reports speak of Oswald not as having been on his way to buy a coke but as being already in possession of one should give pause to any conspiracy-oriented researcher minded to cite those reports as compelling evidence that Oswald confirmed the story Baker would tell to the WC.

**

I submit that both Fritz and Bookhout really did hear Oswald say he was drinking a coca-cola, which he had just purchased from the machine in the second-floor lunchroom, when an officer came in with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. But the officer was not coming into the lunchroom, he was coming into the building.

And I submit that Oswald, in saying these things, was telling the truth.

**

In March 1964 the managing editor of the Dallas Morning News gathered together the personal recollections of fifty-one press people relating to the assassination and its aftermath.

DMN reporter Kent Biffle was one of these fifty-one. Included in his piece is the moment when Roy Truly alerted the police to the 'missing' status of employee Lee Oswald. Biffle then adds the following fact:

"The [TSBD] superintendent [Truly] would recall later that he & a policeman met Oswald as they charged into the building after the shots were fired."

As they charged into the building.

Not: as they charged up the building.

Not: as they charged through the building.

As they charged into it.

**

I submit once again that the posture of Prayer Man's arms in the Darnell film indicates clearly that he must be holding something--and that we have strong reasons for identifying this man as Lee Oswald holding the very bottle of coca-cola that will find itself transplanted in time and space by Fritz and Bookhout.

prayermandesh12fps100c4k1m.gif

**

To summarise where we are so far:

a ) Oswald did exactly what his co-workers Billy Lovelady and Harold Norman had done several minutes earlier that day: gone up to the second-floor lunchroom to buy a Coca-Cola to go with his lunch

b ) Oswald informed Fritz of this pre-assassination visit to the lunchroom

c ) The Bookhout/Hosty joint report accurately reflected this fact

d ) Bookhout later wrote a solo report in order to bury this fact by ‘clarifying’ what (the now dead) Oswald had actually said

e ) Fritz weeks later 'confirmed' Oswald's 'confirmation' of the apocryphal lunchroom incident.

Were it not for Harry Holmes’ delightfully ‘off-message’ comments in his Warren Commission testimony, as well as Carolyn Arnold’s later insistence that she had seen Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom before the assassination, the switch from front entrance to second-floor lunchroom would probably have remained undetected.

Hi Sean. Makes a lot of sense. I raise my glass of Midleton. Sláinte!

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Fritz's notes say that Lee said he was

"out with Bill Shelley in front,"

As Richard Hocking points out, the only time he could have been out front with Shelley

was prior to and during the actual shooting, because Shelley left the front steps immediately after

and went to explore the grassy knoll.

It is a long time since I seriously studied the interrogation reports, but I propose a theory and invite pot-shots from members:

This answer by Oz does not appear in Hosty or Bookhout, correct?

If not, why not?

I suggest it happened BEFORE Hosty and Bookhout arrived,

and so the FBI reports are foggy because Hosty and Bookhout are relying on what Fritz told them.

I thought I'd run that up the flagpole

and see if anyone salutes!

Edited by J. Raymond Carroll
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Fritz's notes say that Lee said he was

"out with Bill Shelley in front,"

As Richard Hocking points out, the only time he could have been out front with Shelley

was prior to and during the actual shooting, because Shelley left the front steps immediately after

and went to explore the grassy knoll.

It is a long time since I seriously studied the interrogation reports, but I propose a theory and invite pot-shots from members:

This answer by Oz does not appear in Hosty or Bookhout, correct?

If not, why not?

I suggest it happened BEFORE Hosty and Bookhout arrived,

and so the FBI reports are foggy because Hosty and Bookhout are relying on what Fritz told them.

I thought I'd run that up the flagpole

and see if anyone salutes!

It's one possibility, Ray.

One item that leaps out of Fritz's WC testimony is the commotion of various DPD personnel, SS Agents, and FBI agents coming and leaving the room during the Oswald interviews. There were times when Bookhout was there; other times when Hosty was there; and at least one occasion when Hosty and Bookhout were there together.

We are also stuck with Fritz being unable to remember on what day Oswald gave some of the relevant answers to some of the questions.

I am not aware of an Interrogation Timeline showing who was present at which interviews, but it might be handy to put one together as a reference.

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[...]

[...]

Here is a direct link to a thread containing static images and moving Gifs ot the man and the area in question.

It's a long thread with many interesting diversions and fantastic graphical analysis by some of the most talented and dedicated photo analysis people in the JFK community.

Here is one example of the standard of stabilized Gif construction which is a major feature at my forum.

This one shows clearly the man in question, and Baker running towards the entrance.

Credit Gerda Dunckel

prayermandesh12fps100c4k1m.gif

Enjoy the thread - Link Below

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,6724.0.html

Has anyone noticed the person who slowly stands up or goes up one step, backwards, in front of Prayer Man?

Also, notice the suit-wearing man at the base of the steps on the left who waves Baker up the steps with his left hand and pivots out of the way. Could that be Roy Truly?

--Tommy :sun

PS: Unrelated comment. It seems that the main purpose of this thread is to try to prove that "Prayer Man" was Oswald and, therefore, that Oswald couldn't possibly have been a shooter.

Rhetorical question: If we can do that, would it prove that Oswald wasn't wittingly involved in the conspiracy? (No, I'm not saying that he was.)

augmented and bumped

Edited by Thomas Graves
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