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Pat Speer

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  1. It's called research, Sandy. If you read the statements of those in attendance at the autopsy you will see that no one mentions the CIA's involvement. They were not there. They had nothing to do with it. The military assumed responsibility for the autopsy. If you're gonna search for a boogey man, there's your boogey man. You can say the CIA killed Kennedy and the military covered it up if you like, and it might even be true, but to say the CIA ran the autopsy is just ridiculous.
  2. That's the most back-assword thing I've ever read. It would be funny if it weren't so symbolic of what's going on in the world, where people out to deceive point at those trying to hold them accountable, while claiming, "Witch!" The majority of witnesses to JFK's head wound in Dallas placed it near the top of the back of his head. I suspect it was a few inches forward of that, but that a flap of bone opened up while JFK was on his back, and this gave the illusion of the wound's being more rearward. I am in good company when it comes to this suspicion, moreover. It is not throwing the witnesses under the bus to say some of their recollections could be slightly off. And it is hypocritical for people pushing the back of the head was blown out, and only the back of the head was blown out, to pretend as much. Most everyone to claim there was blow-out wound on the back of the head, after all, claims the bulk of the witnesses placing their hands above their ear to designate this wound's location were in error, and insists the wound was actually located at the level of the ear. And virtually everyone to claim there was a blow-out wound low on the back of the head, for what's worse, claims the numerous witnesses in the plaza and at the hospital who placed the wound at the top and side of the head were either mistaken, or lying. And it's worse than that... Many of the back of the head crowd believe the bulk of the men most involved in Kennedy's treatment in Dallas, who later claimed they'd been mistaken in implying the wound was on the far back of the head, were lying and even complicit in the cover-up of Kennedy's murder. One prominent researcher even went so far as to claim some of these men were willing conspirators in Kennedy's murder. So it is not I who is bashing the witnesses. I mean, if you read through this forum, you will find numerous threads claiming Buell Frazier, Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, Roy Truly, and Abraham Zapruder were part of a conspiracy to cover up JFK's murder, along with numerous Secret Service agents. Never mind the numerous statements by these men supportive of Oswald's innocence. They performed the SIN of saying something that upset someone with a pet theory--so they are now marked with a digital letter on their chests--a C, for conspirator. It's a disgrace, IMO.
  3. Who? Sibert and O'Neill made a list of those in attendance. No CIA agents were present. Plenty of military officers, and a number of SS agents. But no CIA agents. P.S. As soon as I wrote this I started thinking that the CIA would want someone present. But I just can't think of who that would be. I'm drawing a blank. And I think that's because they had no one present. This was a domestic crime, after all. And was not exactly their responsibility. That responsibility rested on the Secret Service (which was tasked with presidential protection), the military (over which Kennedy served as Commander-in-Chief) and the FBI (which was tasked with investigating domestic crimes). The CIA had no role to play at the autopsy.
  4. I hope I'm not the only one who notices how some people are willing to throw EVERY WITNESS under the bus to support their reckless theories. Sibert And O'Neill, who refused to play along with the single-bullet theory, and who later made claims suggesting the back of the head was blown out? Well, they are an impediment to the pet theory of some that the body was paraded into the morgue multiple times in a number of different caskets...so they MUST be part of the conspiracy. And Greer, who said the last two shots were simultaneous, and thereby cast doubt on the Oswald-did-it-theory? Well, he slowed the limo down while looking back at the President...so he MUST have been part of the conspiracy? And Kellerman, who said a flurry of shots came into limo at the time of the head shot, and who made a drawing for the HSCA consistent with the back of the head's being blown out? Well, he took the body from the Dallas Coroner--something EVERYONE in the the Federal Government at that time, including EVERYONE in the Kennedy Administration, and family, thought needed to be done--so he MUST be part of the conspiracy. If you look back at the title of this thread you'll see that it was started because I had said publicly that I thought a person--who I had met and deemed a nice man--was incorrect on some key points, and had enjoyed the attention he had received from conspiracy theorists. And yet here, several pages into the thread, we can all see what's really going on--that those upset by my statements are full of nasty and disrespectful suspicions of long-term public servants, and are more than willing to claim these men were not mistaken, as I said of McClelland, but active participants in a cover-up of the President's murder. I mean, there would be no body alteration theory without the Sibert and O'Neill report--which opened a door for Lifton. And Kellerman's description of a "flurry of shots" undoubtedly convinced a lot of LNs into becoming CTs. Should one actually study the evidence, moreover, one will find that Earl Warren was so disturbed by Kellerman and Greer's testimony that he met with the staff and told them he wanted to have a clean record and that he thought it would be fine if the staff pre-interviewed their witnesses and omitted questions which might lead to answers that would dirty the record. So, no, they weren't witting members of a plot to kill the man they'd been charged with protecting. Because if they had been they'd have provided Warren with the "clean" record he was seeking. And the same goes for Sibert and O'Neill, who wouldn't play along with the single-bullet theory, and were consequently not called to testify. They are among the best witnesses for a conspiracy, and elaborate attempts to undermine their credibility are either counter-productive, or suspect.
  5. G-men is slang for FBI agents. The only FBI agents at the autopsy were Sibert and O'Neill, who made many statements helpful to the claims of conspiracy, and were interviewed by Arlen Specter for the WC, and then not called to testify, because he thought their statements might prove damaging. So who the heck are you talking about?
  6. You're being weird here, Cliff. The belief among many that shots came from the front has almost nothing to do with the BDM. Everyone I've ever known who thought shots came from the front, with the possible exception of...you...believed the shooter was either behind the fence or on the South Knoll. In the eyes of these people, pretty much everyone, BDM is a distraction. Heck, the HSCA, which you seem to believe suspected BDM was a shooter, said nothing of the sort. As far as Groden and Roberdeau...they thought the shots came from the front, from behind the picket fence. I don't recall either of them saying they believed BDM was a shooter.
  7. It's not "opinions, Cliff. You have cited two of the three researchers who told me about Chism's brother and his girlfriend as support for your fantastical idea the BDM was a shooter, when I feel certain these men don't believe this. They told me this after talking to Faye Chism. I think the three men who told me this were Groden. Brownlow and Roberdeau. But I could be mistaken. Maybe it was only two of the three. But if Groden did not tell me this, then I feel fairly certain he does not believe BDM was a shooter, because I have stood by him in his booth and talked to tourists with him, and he has always pointed out the picket fence as the likely location for a shooter. If you can get him to claim otherwise, and that BDM was a shooter, well, I'd be surprised. But not shocked.
  8. BDM would have been in clear view of Zaptuder and Sitzman, and for the three men on the steps should they have looked in that direction after hearing a sound. Are you really pushing that they had a sniper out in public, who would have to run across 30 feet or more to get out of sight? And, if so, why would they have done that? The best angles for a sniper were from behind. Being that close while the limo was passing would make the tracking of their target much much harder, not easier. P.S. the HSCA panel looked into BDM at the urging of one of its members, Robert Groden, right? As I recall, Groden is among those who told me this issue had been resolved, as it was Faye Chism's brother's girlfriend, or wife, I don't remember. In any event, feel free to track down Groden and see if he still believes "BDM" was part of the assassination team. I suspect he does not. But it's Groden. So who knows?
  9. Black Dog Man was not behind the fence. That's Badge Man. Black Dog Man can be seen in one of the Willis photos, and also in the Moorman photo, and is simply a black figure by the short white concrete wall where a soda pop bottle was found...in clear view of Zapruder's and Sitzman's location. The presumption I believe is that the bottle on the wall was the boyfriend's soda pop bottle, and that the girlfriend dropped her bottle. I think Sitzman thought it was done deliberately, moreover. While I haven't collected quotes about black dog man, a quick google search shows you that the black dog man figure was right out in the open halfway between Zapruder and Sitzman and the men on the steps. There was simply no way for that person to fire a rifle at Kennedy and not be noticed.
  10. I believe I heard the story about Chism's brother and his girlfriend from two if not three different researchers. I don't know if I believe it, but they seemed to believe it. As far as "black dog man", the figure is so indistinct I don't think we can tell if it's a man or a woman. As I sit here right now, I think the image is consistent with a dark-skinned African-American woman dressed all in black's eating her lunch. If I'm not mistaken Marilyn Sitzman supported this possibility by claiming a black woman broke a bottle on the sidewalk just after the shots. And, come to think of it, I think there's footage of this spilled soft drink somewhere--is it in Darnell's footage? I don't recall. But as I recall there's footage of a soda spill right by where this woman was supposedly sitting.
  11. Seeing as some have taken to claiming President Kennedy was killed by a shot fired from the front, and suffered no wound of any substance on the front or top of his head beyond a small entrance wound on his forehead, I present some quotes as a reminder of why most long-time researchers believe this to be bunkum. First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy (11-29-63 interview with Theodore White, notes released 5-26-95, and subsequently published in the September 1995 Kennedy Assassination Chronicles) “They were gunning the motorcycles; there were these little backfires; there was one noise like that; I thought it was a backfire. Then next I saw Connally grabbing his arm and saying no no no nonono, with his fist beating—then Jack turned and I turned—all I remember was a blue gray building up ahead, then Jack turned back, so neatly; his last expression was so neat; he had his hand out, I could see a piece of his skull coming off; it was flesh colored not white—he was holding out his hand—and I can see this perfectly clean piece detaching itself from his head; then he slumped in my lap.” (When describing the immediate aftermath of the shots) "All the ride to the hospital, I kept bending over him saying, "Jack, Jack, can you hear me, I love you, Jack." I kept holding the top of his head down trying to keep the..." (When describing her husband's condition upon arrival at the hospital) "From here down"--and here she made a gesture indicating her husband's forehead--"his head was so beautiful. I'd tried to hold the top of his head down, maybe I could keep it in...I knew he was dead." (4-7-64, 5-4-64, 5-7-64, 5-8-64, and 7-20-64 interviews with William Manchester, as represented in The Death of a President, 1967) (On the first shot) "Jacqueline Kennedy believed it was a motorcycle noise." (On Connally's screaming) "Jacqueline Kennedy heard him. In a daze she wondered 'Why is he screaming?' Already she had started to turn anxiously to her husband." (On the final shot) "The First Lady, in her last act as First Lady, leaned solicitously toward the President. His face was quizzical. She had seen that expression so often, when he was puzzling over a difficult press conference question. Now, in a gesture of infinite grace, he raised his right hand, as though to brush back his tousled chestnut hair. But the motion faltered. The hand fell back empty. He had been reaching for the top of his head. But it wasn't there any more." Governor John Connally (12-13-63 FBI report on a 12-11 interview, CD188, p. 3-5) “I was conscious of a third shot and heard it…we were all splattered with what I thought was brain tissue from President Kennedy." (4-21-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 4H129-146) “I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open, and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something…I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear…Immediately, I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on the interior of the car…brain tissue….on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb..." Nellie Connally (12-13-63 FBI report, CD188, p.6-7) “she was facing the front of the car when the first shot was fired and turned to her right towards President Kennedy and saw him with his hand at his throat and then slump down. …almost immediately Governor Connally recoiled in the opposite direction from her and was heard to remark “My God, they are going to kill us all.” She had feelings that buck shot was falling all around them and then she realized it was probably brain matter from President Kennedy’s head…" (4-21-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 4H146-149) “I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot…I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me…The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too, could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us..." Motorcycle Officer James Chaney, who was traveling just behind Kennedy and on his right. (11-22-63 interview with KLIF radio, reportedly around 12:45 PM--but not broadcast at that time--as presented on the KLIF album The Fateful Hours. Note: parts of this interview were also played in the 1976 CFTR radio program Thou Shalt Not Kill.) "On the first shot we thought it was a motorcycle backfire. I looked to my left and so did President Kennedy, looking back over his left shoulder, and when the second shot struck him in the face then we knew that someone was shooting at the President." (When then asked if he saw where the bullet had come from) "No, all I knew is it come over my right shoulder." Motorcycle Officer Douglas Jackson rode to the right of Chaney. (Notes written on the night of 11-22-63 as reprinted in The Kennedy Assassination Tapes, 1979): "I looked then back to my right and behind me then looked back toward Mr. Kennedy and saw him hit in the head; he appeared to have been hit just above the right ear. The top of his head flew off away from me." (On what happened after they arrived at Parkland Hospital and he approached the limo) "An agent opened the car door and started to get Mrs. Kennedy out but Mrs. Kennedy said no. It's no need she said and raised up from over Mr. Kennedy. I could see the top of his head was gone, his left eye was bulged out of socket. The agent said "Oh no!" and started crying, pulled his coat off, and placed it over Mr. Kennedy's head." Abraham Zapruder stood on a pedestal in the arcade on the North side of Elm. (11-22-63 notes of an unknown reporter found in the files of the Dallas Times Herald, and quoted in Pictures of the Pain by Richard Trask, p. 149, published 1998.) “Abraham Zapruder…heard 3 shots///after first one Pres slumped over grabed stomac…hit in stomac…two more shots///looked like head opened up and everything came out…blood spattered everywhere…side of his face…looked like blobs out of his temple… forehead… Jackie first reached over to the Pres. And after second shot…she crawled over to back of car…after that she was lying…” Marilyn Sitzman, Zapruder's secretary who was standing beside and in back of him. (11-22-63 notes on an interview of Sitzman by a Dallas Times-Herald reporter, presumably Darwin Payne, as presented in The Zapruder Film by David Wrone, 2003) "Shot hit pres. Right in the temple." William Newman was standing on the north side of Elm Street with his wife and two kids and can be seen in the Muchmore film just behind Kennedy as the fatal shot is fired. (11-22-63 interview on WFAA, prior to the announcement of the President's death, at approximately 12:45) “I don't know who was hit first but the President jumped up in his seat, and I thought it scared him, I thought it was a firecracker, cause he looked, you know, fear. And then as the car got directly in front of us well a gunshot apparently from behind us hit the President in the side of the temple.” (11-22-63 third interview on WFAA, at approximately 1:10 PM) “My wife and my two sons were standing at the curb, looking at the President approaching us, when we heard a blast. And the President looked like that he right jumped up in his seat, and by that time he was directly in front of us. And then he......we seen him get shot in the side of the head. And he fell back in his seat and Governor Connally was holding his stomach. Frances Gayle Newman was Bill Newman's wife 11-22-63 second interview on WFAA, at approximately 1:17 PM) “We were standing next to the curb so the children could see the President. And the car was just up apiece from us and this shot fired out, and I thought it was a firecracker, and the President kind of raised up in his seat. And I thought, you know, he was kind of going along with a gag or something. And then all of a sudden the next one popped, and Governor Connally grabbed his stomach and kind of laid over to the side. And then another one—it was just awful fast. And President Kennedy reached up (with both hands she reaches for her right temple) and grabbed--it looked like he grabbed--his ear and blood just started gushing out. (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 24H218) “Just about the time President Kennedy was in front of us, I heard another shot ring out and the President put his hands up to his head, I saw blood all over the side of his head.” Emmett Hudson was standing on the grassy knoll steps to the right and In front of the President. (7-22-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H558-565) “I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him, the second shot…it looked like it hit him somewhere along a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear." (8-2-68 interview with Barry Ernest recounted in The Girl on the Stairs, published 2011) "When I inquired about the shots, he repeated what he had said to the Commission: they sounded as if they came from above, behind, and to the left. 'Above, behind, and to the left of what?' I asked. 'Above and behind the motorcade, and to the left of me' he replied." James Altgens was on the opposite side of the street from Hudson and was pretty much in front of Kennedy, due to the curvature of the street. (7-22-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H517-525) “There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. Also, the fact that his head was covered with blood, the hairline included, on the left side all the way down, with no blood on his forehead or face--- suggested to me, too, that the shot came from the opposite side, meaning in the direction of this Depository Building" Note: this is just a small sample of the dozens of eyewitness statements which either describe a wound on the top or side of Kennedy's head, or an ejection of matter forwards from his position when hit. These witness statements are incompatible with the pet theory of some that there was no wound on the top or side of JFK's head, and that all films showing as much are fake.
  12. One of my earliest "discoveries" if you will was that Tink Thompson had misrepresented the statements of F. Lee Mudd in Six Seconds in Dallas, and that Mudd is most probably the man on the steps by Hudson. As far as the man behind them who immediately takes off and runs back into the train yards, I have heard from several researchers that he was Faye Chism's brother, and that he and his girlfriend at the time--who was sitting behind the short wall, and who people called "black dog man"--had no interest in coming forward, and wanted to be left alone. Perhaps someone else on this forum has more information... If so, please share...
  13. Unfortunately, Charles, there are circles, in academia, in law enforcement, and the media, for example, where the belief Oswald was the sole shooter, and all this talk of conspiracy paranoid nonsense, is worn like a badge of honor. A lot of these people never studied the case beyond reading a few news articles, and maybe watching a TV program or two, but they are convinced (and want others to be convinced) that Oswald was guilty because they look at the LN side and see the Warren Commission, Arlen Specter, J. Edgar Hoover, Walter Cronkite, and Vincent Bugliosi, and then look at the CT side and see Mark Lane, Jim Garrison, Robert Groden, David Lifton, Oliver Stone, and James Fetzer. The one side seems reasonable and the other side not so much.
  14. Thanks, Stu. I was hoping you'd weigh in. And yes, you are correct, the elements within specific types of bullets are not random. But the larger point I was trying to make was that two samples from the same bullet can have enough variation where one can not say they came from the same bullet, and two bullets from the same box can have enough variation where one can't say they came from the same box. So the use of NAA to support that the wrist fragment matched the magic bullet was smoke, and its subsequent denouncement as junk science is proper. What gets lost in the process, however, is that the protocols established by Guinn prior to his testimony were that a bullet would need to match on three key elements before you could claim it was a match. And it only matched on one, really--antimony. The wrist fragment matched roughly half the other fragments on silver, and failed to match at all on copper. Now, Guinn claimed the sample was tainted by the copper jacket so he threw that one out. But his papers reveal that arsenic was to be used as a back-up in such circumstances, and no results for arsenic were revealed. So the fragment and magic bullet did not match...according to Guinn's science papers. And it follows that his testimony was a deliberate deception.
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