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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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To recapitulate:

Oswald comes down from the fifth or sixth floor shortly after noon.

He goes for lunch in the first-floor domino room and picks up his apple and cheese sandwich.

Several minutes before the assassination, he goes upstairs to the second-floor lunchroom and buys a coke.

He brings the coke downstairs and, hearing the crescendo of applause and cheering for the motorcade, goes out onto the front steps.

PrayerManWiegmancokesandwich_zpsae0de9b9

Everyone else's attention is naturally riveted on the motorcade and then the loud bangs; Oswald's presence goes unnoticed.

Within seconds of the last shot, Marrion Baker has dismounted and is dashing to the front entrance of the TSBD.

Oswald's hands are down from his mouth as he begins to take in what's going on:

PrayerMan2markedw-gammacorrection_zpsff2

Baker reaches the front door and, needing directions for the stairs, notices Oswald and asks him if he works there.

Before Oswald can answer, Roy Truly arrives at the front lobby and offers to escort Baker upstairs.

Oswald at some point goes into the small storage room located just off the front lobby.

He is noticed in there by Ochus Campbell and Jeraldean Reid as that pair are re-entering the building to take the front stairs to the second-floor office.

**

How do we get from all that to this?:

AffidavitMLBaker_zps41c33e46.jpg

The red part is easy:

Baker is covering the time of his fleeting encounter with Oswald.

But he has no reason to remember Oswald--or, even if he does remember him, to single either the man or the encounter out for special mention.

He has, after all, got a much bigger fish to fry:

As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

**

If there is one question as momentous as, Where was Oswald at the time of the assassination?, it is surely:

Did Baker encounter a man other than Oswald, a man fitting the above description, who was evidently coming down the rear stairway on (in the words of Marvin Johnson, who took Baker's affidavit) "about the fourth floor"?

There are strong arguments to be made both ways but on balance--and I'm very much open to persuasion on this--I believe a close textual analysis of Baker's affidavit statement points to the answer: no, he didn't.

Bumped

Edited by Thomas Graves
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If Oswald is Prayerman, then neither Shelley nor Lovelady defended him by saying he was on the steps during the shooting, or it is not recorded that they did.

David, perhaps Lovelady nearly identified Oswald.

Mr. BALL - Who was with you?

Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me

Mr. BALL - What was that last name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.

Beautiful interruption by Ball. who never let Lovelady say who was behind him.

Edited by Ray Mitcham
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I hear you Ray. But anyone who would not be vociferous about defending someone standing next to him unarmed during a shooting has been made aware that the fix is in.

Were there notes made of what Lovelady said to the DPD, aware that Oswald had been marched past him for interrogation, as captured on news film?

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David, I think your point is very accurate - and very real. I've spoken to DPD members and a lot of other folks in Dallas who realized that "the fix was in" quite quickly - say within 48 hours. That applies to certain of the statements from the fellows on the fifth floor and perhaps most obviously to the sudden disappearance of remarks from the TSBD manager who was quoted on the first day as having seen Oswald in the entry way around the time of the shooting. Heck, even senior DPD officers knew and later commented that the fix was in - direct from D.C.

I'm not sure Oswald was that close to anybody who would have risked their job, their future in Dallas and maybe even more to move against the entire official story that was so quickly set in place. Still, some stubbornly tried. Last week I listened to Buell Frasier say again that the Oswald he knew was not the Oswald that was written and talked about so widely and that he still couldn't believe he had killed the President.

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I hear you Ray. But anyone who would not be vociferous about defending someone standing next to him unarmed during a shooting has been made aware that the fix is in.

Were there notes made of what Lovelady said to the DPD, aware that Oswald had been marched past him for interrogation, as captured on news film?

I don't disagree with anything you say, David. I was just suggesting a reason why Oswald might not have been mentioned.

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I've spoken to DPD members and a lot of other folks in Dallas who realized that "the fix was in" quite quickly - say within 48 hours. That applies to certain of the statements from the fellows on the fifth floor and perhaps most obviously to the sudden disappearance of remarks from the TSBD manager who was quoted on the first day as having seen Oswald in the entry way around the time of the shooting. Heck, even senior DPD officers knew and later commented that the fix was in - direct from D.C.

Larry, I have read quotes from various sources over the years regarding Truly's statement that he had seen LHO on the front steps around the time of the shooting, but I haven't found an original source. It seems that a media statement was likely, but I can't find it. Can you provide any additional information?

My personal belief is that several people could provide an alibis for Oswald and probably did. DPD was told by the FBI they had their man, and we have numerous statements that by Friday evening, DPD had no interest in hearing any statement other than "LHO acting alone." Anyone who came forward on Friday evening, or Saturday to speak for LHO would have been turned away and no statement from them would have been recorded. Perhaps they were even accused of being his accomplice, as Buell Wesley Frazier was.

At "high noon" the very next day, Oswald was publicly executed while inside the police station. Anyone who didn't take that "hint" and shut up, was told/threatened to shut up about it by law enforcement officers. They could no longer help Oswald, he was dead. Considering the way DPD operated in 1963, if you were told to shut up by DPD AND THE FEDS, you shut up. Additionally, they may well have heard "rumors" of DPD involvement in the assassination. They stayed silent.

Tom

Edited by Tom Neal
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Tom, actually I was not thinking of Truly - someone can help me but it was his boss (Otis or Orchus Campbell...probably wrong, it will no doubt come to me several hours from now) and the story appeared in a Saturday morning Dallas newspaper where he was quoted. After that there were no more quotes or remarks from him at all. I'm pretty sure that is in this this thread somewhere, possibly even with a link to the page.

I think its also important that Buell Frazier has now gone on record that Friday night, Fritz actually strong-armed him and tried to get him to sign a confession implicating himself in a conspiracy along with Oswald to shoot the President. He was arrested, photographed and finger printed, not simply brought in for questioning - and much earlier in the afternoon than many of us had understood.

Its pretty clear that anybody who might have thought of giving Oswald any sort of alibi had to see what that would imply for their well being, certainly by late Saturday and if not then by Sunday morning.

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To recapitulate:

Oswald comes down from the fifth or sixth floor shortly after noon.

He goes for lunch in the first-floor domino room and picks up his apple and cheese sandwich.

Several minutes before the assassination, he goes upstairs to the second-floor lunchroom and buys a coke.

He brings the coke downstairs and, hearing the crescendo of applause and cheering for the motorcade, goes out onto the front steps.

PrayerManWiegmancokesandwich_zpsae0de9b9

Everyone else's attention is naturally riveted on the motorcade and then the loud bangs; Oswald's presence goes unnoticed.

Within seconds of the last shot, Marrion Baker has dismounted and is dashing to the front entrance of the TSBD.

Oswald's hands are down from his mouth as he begins to take in what's going on:

PrayerMan2markedw-gammacorrection_zpsff2

Baker reaches the front door and, needing directions for the stairs, notices Oswald and asks him if he works there.

Before Oswald can answer, Roy Truly arrives at the front lobby and offers to escort Baker upstairs.

Oswald at some point goes into the small storage room located just off the front lobby.

He is noticed in there by Ochus Campbell and Jeraldean Reid as that pair are re-entering the building to take the front stairs to the second-floor office.

**

How do we get from all that to this?:

AffidavitMLBaker_zps41c33e46.jpg

The red part is easy:

Baker is covering the time of his fleeting encounter with Oswald.

But he has no reason to remember Oswald--or, even if he does remember him, to single either the man or the encounter out for special mention.

He has, after all, got a much bigger fish to fry:

As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

**

If there is one question as momentous as, Where was Oswald at the time of the assassination?, it is surely:

Did Baker encounter a man other than Oswald, a man fitting the above description, who was evidently coming down the rear stairway on (in the words of Marvin Johnson, who took Baker's affidavit) "about the fourth floor"?

There are strong arguments to be made both ways but on balance--and I'm very much open to persuasion on this--I believe a close textual analysis of Baker's affidavit statement points to the answer: no, he didn't.

Barrel-chested, Lovelady might be visible in a Couch clip, the one with the blue oval around Prayer Man. Lovelady isn't the tall guy on the top step (I think that's Frazier), but he might be a few steps lower and still near the hand railing that goes up the middle of the steps.

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I have been looking at an enhanced copy of the Hughes film, and I noticed, towards the end of it, what appears to be the front steps of the TSBD some amount of time after the assassination. Although hard to make out, I believe I can see Billy Lovelady at the bottom of the steps on the right hand side.

Does anyone know what time this footage was shot at?

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I have been looking at an enhanced copy of the Hughes film, and I noticed, towards the end of it, what appears to be the front steps of the TSBD some amount of time after the assassination. Although hard to make out, I believe I can see Billy Lovelady at the bottom of the steps on the right hand side.

Does anyone know what time this footage was shot at?

Robert,

Yes, that's Lovelady at 1:33 (wearing his partially unbuttoned red, grey, and black "plaid" shirt over his white t-shirt) directly under the letter "T" in "DEPOSITORY".

To answer your question, I think it was several minutes after the assassination as the police are letting workers into the building again. In fact at the very end you can see Lovelady start making his way up the stairs towards the front door.

Sorry I can't be more specific.

Perhaps another forum member can educate us.

--Tommy :sun

And now for a little followup.

From post # 1156, this thread, by Sean Murphy:

#2.

LOVELADY IS ASKED EXPLICITLY ABOUT A PRAYER MAN-STYLE SCENARIO.

First the HSCA interviewer asks Lovelady to identify himself in Altgens. Lovelady immediately does so.

Next Lovelady is shown an image he has never seen before: a frame from the John Martin film [contemporaneous with the Robert Hughes clip you're talking about, Mr Prudhomme] showing him (Lovelady) standing over by the east side of the entrance some 8-15 minutes post-assassination (a time estimate given by photographic consultant Robert Groden, who is present in the room). Lovelady identifies himself immediately. [...]

--Tommy :sun

And last but not least!

From a Robin Unger post # 142 on the "Neweusem Displays Oswald's Shirt" thread:

Martin / Hughes film sync TSBD doorway Credit: Gerda Dunckel

Give the Gif time to load

martinhughessynch100prkc9v.gif

(If you look closely at the Martin clip, you'll see that Lovelady is smoking. When he exhales through his mouth, it distorts his face because he juts his jaw out. Also note that when he turns his head away from the TSBD and exhales, a tiny vertical strip of Lovelady's t-shirt is visible in his chest area. So his shirt was unbuttoned, after all!)

Note: Lovelady is visible in the Hughes clip above, too, but you can't see much of his shirt. Just his huge bald spot. LOL

--Tommy :sun

PS Please note that Bonnie Ray Williams is visible in both clips, and Danny Arce is visible in the Martin clip.

Edited by Thomas Graves
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