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Did O'Donnell select the Trade Mart ?


Gil Jesus

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I contend that they not only hoodwinked O'Donnell on the Trade Mart and motorcade route, they did the same thing to hijack AF1 for the return flight to DC.

You actually think that LBJ was so desperate to fly on AF1 (instead of AF2) on the trip back to Washington, that he was willing to practically "hijack" (your word) the aircraft to do so?

LOL.

What difference does it make whether LBJ flew back on Air Force 1 or Air Force 2?

You CTers get goofier by the day.

David, first off I resent your attempt to dismiss me along with all other CTs, which include 80% of the people of the USA, as you previously listed a number of popular conspiracy theories, none of which I subscribe to.

You can laugh and consider the Air Force One issues goofy, but that's okay, it just allows those who do not consider them goofy to dismiss you as irrelevant.

As for what difference does it make whether LBJ flew back on Air Force 1 or Air Force 2, that is a question that I have been trying to answer, and learn why LBJ did just that, something that the Kennedy people who flew in on AF1 also thought as bizarre - or goofy. It would also be interesting to learn why LBJ later lied about it, saying that he asked Kenny O'Donnell and HE said to take AF1, and the reason was because it had superior communication equipment.

Now, to bring this thread back on track, is there anything we can learn from the fact that Kenny O'Donnell was used as the Scapegoat for two major decisions - the location of the luncheon at the Trade Mart, that ensured the motorcade would go through DP, and the decision for LBJ to take AF1 back to DC rather than the plane he flew in on?

Of course if JFK were alive, the President and VP would not be permitted to fly on the same plane - by security protocols, and it was only because he was dead that they could make the trip together.

BK

JFKcountercoup

Edited by William Kelly
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DiEugenio apparently wants to play the part of Village Idiot and act as if the motorcade route was actually changed, even though there's ample proof that the route was positively not changed at all.

But, as usual, to a conspiracy theorist like DiEugenio, it doesn't matter how stale and debunked a tired conspiracy theory might be, it's never TOO stale for the likes of some CTers who want to totally ignore the facts (which are presented below).

Was The Motorcade Route Changed?

Your calling DiEugenio the village idiot sounds like a case of the pot calling the kettle "black".

--Tommy :)

Your calling DiEugenio the village idiot sounds like a case of the pot calling the kettle "black".

Tommy,

I agree with you, there seems to be a few out there, I have no idea what this lady is on, but I'm sure she could be arrested.

President Kennedy's trip to Dallas was first announced to the public in September 1963.[4] The exact motorcade route was finalized on November 18 and announced to the public a few days before November 22. There was NO change in the motorcade route. On Friday, November 22, 1963, at 11:40 AM CST, Kennedy, his wife Jacqueline, and the rest of the presidential entourage arrived at Love Field in Dallas, Texas, aboard Air Force One after a very short flight from nearby Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth. The motorcade cars had been lined up in a certain order earlier that morning. The original schedule was for the president to proceed in a long motorcade from Love Field through downtown Dallas, and end at the Dallas Business and Trade Mart.

The motorcade was scheduled to enter Dealey Plaza at 12:10 PM, followed by a 12:15 PM arrival at the Dallas Business and Trade Mart so President Kennedy could deliver a speech and share in a steak luncheon with Dallas government, business, religious, and civic leaders and their spouses. Invitations that were sent out specify a 12:00 PM start time to the luncheon while SS agent Lawson told Chief Curry that after arriving at Love Field and leaving at 11:30 the 38-45 minute trip would get them to the Trade Mart on time. Air Force One touched down at 11:39 AM and did not leave Love Field until approximately fifteen minutes later.

Dallas' three television stations were given separate assignments. As Bob Walker of WFAA-TV 8 (ABC) was providing live coverage of the President's arrival at Love Field, KRLD-TV 4 (CBS) with Eddie Barker was set up at the Trade Mart for Kennedy's luncheon speech. WBAP-TV 5 (NBC), being a Dallas/Fort Worth network based in the latter, had done live coverage of the President's breakfast speech in Fort Worth earlier that day. On hand to report the arrival on radio was Joe Long of KLIF 1190.

The route scheduled to be driven was as follows: left turn from the south end of Love Field to West Mockingbird Lane, right on Lemmon Ave., right at the "Y" on Turtle Creek Blvd, straight on Cedar Springs Rd, left on North Harwood St, right on Main St, right on Houston St, sharp left on Elm St, through Triple Underpass, right turn up ramp to North Stemmons Freeway, to Dallas Trade Mart at 2100 North Stemmons (This same exact route cannot be driven today; there is a NO RIGHT TURN sign on the corner of Main and Houston as well as highway progressions in other areas)

The original route had the motorcade continue straight onto Main instead of turning onto Houston, but it was discovered that Elm Street provided the only direct link from Dealey Plaza to the Stemmons Freeway, thus the route was altered.

The presidential motorcade began its route without incident, stopping twice so President Kennedy could shake hands with some Catholic nuns, then some school children.

The route taken by the motorcade within Dealey Plaza. North is towards the almost direct-left At 12:29 p.m. CST, the presidential limousine entered Dealey Plaza after a 90-degree right turn from Main Street onto Houston Street. Over two dozen known and unknown amateur and professional still and motion-picture photographers captured the last living images of President Kennedy.

Just before 12:30 p.m. CST, President Kennedy was riding on Houston Street and slowly approached the Texas School Book Depository head-on. This point in the route gives birth to one of the better conspiracy theories that there were several shooters, for if there was only a single shooter in the sixth floor in the Book Depository, the shooter would have had a much better view of the President on Houston Street, slowly coming towards the shooter, not when the President was moving away from the shooter on Elm Street. Then the limousine made the 120-degree left turn directly in front of the depository, now only 65 feet (20 meters) away.

[edit] 12:30 PM (CST): Shots are fired

According to witnesses, the shooting began shortly after the limousine made the turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Most of these witnesses recalled the first shot happened after the president had started waving with his right hand. Most of these witnesses recalled hearing three shots, with the last two bunched distinctly much closer together than the first two. As seen in the Zapruder film, when the president first emerges from being temporarily behind the Stemmons Freeway sign at Zapruder film frame 224 to 225 his mouth is widely open in a shocked expression and his hands clench into fists, then he quickly raises his arms dramatically upwards towards his throat as he turned leftwards towards his wife. Secret Service Agent Clint Hill testified that he heard one shot, then jumped off the running board of the Secret Service follow-up car directly behind Kennedy (Hill was filmed jumping off his follow-up car at the equivalent of Zapruder frame 308; about a quarter of a second before the president's head exploded at frame 313). Hill then rapidly ran towards the Presidential limo and then a shot hit Kennedy in the head, opening up the right side of his head. As the gore-splattered limousine began speeding up, Mrs. Kennedy was heard to scream[19] and she climbed out of the back seat onto the rear of the limo. At the same time, Hill managed to climb aboard and hang onto the suddenly accelerating limo, and Mrs. Kennedy returned to the back seat. Hill then shielded her and the President. Both of the Connallys stated they heard Mrs. Kennedy say, "I have his brains in my hand!" The limo driver and police motorcycles turned on their sirens and raced at full speed to Parkland Hospital, passing their intended destination of the Dallas Trade Mart along the way, and arriving at about 12:38 PM.

During the shots Governor Connally was also struck, and his wife pulled him closer to her. He suffered several severe wounds that he survived; a bullet entry wound in his upper right back located just behind his right armpit; four inches of his right, fifth chest rib was pulverised; a two-and-a-half inch sized chest exit wound; his right arm's wrist bone was fractured into seven pieces; and he had a bullet entry wound in his left inner thigh. Although there is controversy about exactly when he was wounded, analysts from both the Warren Commission (1964) and House Select Committee on Assassinations (1979) believed that his wounds had been inflicted nearly simultaneously with President Kennedy's in their theories that the two men were struck by a single bullet. The Commission theorized both men were hit nearly simultaneously between Zapruder film frames 210 to 225, while the Committee theorized it happened at frame 190.

During the shots a witness, James Tague, was also wounded when he received a minor facial wound on his right cheek. The Main Street south curb he had been standing 23.5' away from was struck by a bullet or bullet fragment that had no copper sheath, and the richocheting bullet fragment struck Tague. At Zapruder frame 313 Tague's head top was located 271' away from and 16.4' below President Kennedy's head top. The bullet or bullet fragment that struck the cement curb was never found.

Lee Harvey Oswald was confronted by an armed Dallas policeman, Marion Baker, in the depository second floor lunchroom only 74 to 90 seconds (according to a Warren Commission time recreation) after the last shot.[20] Baker first testified that the first shot he remembered hearing as he approached the depository and the Dallas Textile Building had originated from the "building in front of me, or, the one to the right."

In the second floor lunch room, Oswald was identified by the superintendent of the building, Roy Truly, then released. Both Baker and Truly testified that Oswald appeared completely "calm, cool, normal, and was not out of breath in any way," and was not sweating. According to the Warren Commission, Oswald was next seen by a depository secretary as he crossed through the second floor business office carrying a soda bottle.[21] He left the Texas School Book Depository at approximately 12:33 p.m. through its front door.[22]

The Warren Commission concluded that Oswald had traveled from the sixth floor easternmost window, and hid an 8 pound, Italian-made 1938 Mannlicher-Carcano, 6.5 millimeter rifle equipped with a four-power scope along the way. The rifle was reported discovered by a Dallas police detective at 1:22 p.m., having been placed between stacks of boxes. After being discovered, the rifle was photographed before being touched.

Estimates of when the Depository Building was sealed off by police range from 12:33 to 12:50 p.m.[23] The Dealey Plaza immediate area streets and blocks were never sealed-off, and within only nine minutes of the assassination, photographs show that vehicles were still driving unhampered down Elm Street, through the crime scene kill zone.

About 1:00 p.m., after a bus and taxi ride, Oswald arrived back at his boarding room (1026 North Beckley Ave.), and according to his housekeeper Earlene Roberts, left three or four minutes later. She last saw him standing and waiting at a bus stop.[24]

At 1:15 p.m, Dallas police officer J. D. Tippit was shot dead near the intersection of 10th St. and Patton Ave.[25][26][27] This was 0.86 mile from Oswald's rooming house. Thirteen people witnessed the man shooting Tippit or fleeing the immediate scene.[28][29] By that evening, five of the witnesses had identified Oswald in police lineups, and a sixth identified him the following day. Four others subsequently identified Oswald from a photograph.[28][29]

After the Tippit murder, Oswald was witnessed traveling on foot toward the Texas Theatre on West Jefferson Blvd. About 1:35 p.m. Johnny Calvin Brewer, who worked as a manager at Hardy's Shoe Store in the same block as the Texas Theatre on Jefferson Blvd. saw Oswald turning his face away from the street and duck into the entranceway of the shoe store as Dallas squad cars drove up the street with sirens on. When Oswald left the store, Brewer followed Oswald and watched him go into the Texas Theater movie house without paying while ticket attendant Julie Postal was distracted. Brewer notified Postal, who in turn informed the Dallas Police at 1:40 p.m.

Almost two dozen policemen, sheriffs, and detectives in several patrol cars arrived at Texas Theatre because they believed Tippit's killer was inside. When an arrest attempt was made at 1:50 p.m. inside the theater, Oswald resisted arrest and, according to the police, attempted to shoot a patrolman after yelling once, "Well, it's all over now!" then punching a patrolman.[30]

At 3:01 p.m. Dallas time, only an hour after Oswald was taken into the Dallas jail, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover wrote a memo to his assistant directors in which he stated, "I called the Attorney General at his home and told him I thought we had the man who killed the President down in Dallas, at the present time."

Meanwhile, the situation at Parkland Hospital had deteriorated. Even as the press contingent grew, a Roman Catholic priest had been summoned to perform the last rites for President Kennedy.[31] Dr. Malcolm Perry, assistant professor of surgery at UT Southwestern and a vascular surgeon on the Parkland staff was the first to treat Kennedy and he performed a tracheotomy, followed by a cardiopulmonary resuscitation performed with another surgeon.[32][33] Other doctors and surgeons who gathered worked frantically to save the president's life, but his wounds were too great.[34]

At 1:00 p.m. CST, after all the activity had ceased, and after the priest administered the last rites, President Kennedy was pronounced dead. Personnel at Parkland Hospital Trauma Room #1, who treated the President, observed that the President's condition was "moribund",[35] meaning he had no chance of survival upon arrival at the hospital. "We never had any hope of saving his life," Dr. Perry said.[30][36] "I am absolutely sure he never knew what hit him," said Dr. Tom Shires, Parkland's chief of surgery.[37] The Very Reverend Oscar L. Huber, the priest who administered the last rites to the president, told The New York Times that the president was already dead upon the priest's arrival at the hospital and had to draw back a sheet covering the President's face so that the last rites could be given.[38][39] Governor Connally, meanwhile, was soon taken to emergency surgery where he underwent two operations that day.

Although President Kennedy was pronounced dead at 1:00 PM CST, the official announcement would not come for another half-hour. Immediately after receiving word of the president's death, acting White House press secretary Malcolm Kilduff entered the room where Vice President Johnson, who was constitutionally now the President, and his wife were sitting.[40] Kilduff approached them and said to Johnson, "Mr. President, I have to announce the death of President Kennedy. Is it OK with you that the announcement be made now?"[40] The new president ordered that the announcement be made only after he left the hospital.[41] When asking that the announcement be delayed, Johnson told Kilduff: "I think I had better get out of here...before you announce it. We don't know whether this is a worldwide conspiracy, whether they are after me as well as well as they were after President Kennedy, or whether they are after Speaker (John W.) McCormack, or Senator (Carl) Hayden. We just don't know."[17]

At 1:33 p.m. CST, Kilduff entered a nurses' classroom at the hospital filled with press reporters and made the official announcement:[42][34]

“President John F. Kennedy died at approximately 1:00 CST today, here in Dallas. He died of a gunshot wound to the brain. I have no other details regarding the assassination of the president."[40]”

A few minutes after 2:00 p.m. CST, and after a ten to fifteen minute confrontation between cursing and weapons-brandishing Secret Service agents and doctors, President Kennedy's body was removed from Parkland Hospital and driven to Air Force One.[43] According to some Assassination researchers, this removal may have been illegal, as the body was removed before undergoing a forensic examination by the Dallas coroner, and against Texas state laws.[44] The murder of the president was, at that time, listed on the books as a state-level crime and not a federal one, and as such legally occurred under Texas jurisdiction. To this date, however, no official legal body has ruled on this matter, quite possibly as the point is now somewhat disregarded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_John_F._Kennedy_assassination

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/findings.html

Deaths connected to Kennedy's assassination

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/jfkdeaths.htm

LBJ Night Before JFK Assassination: "Those SOB's Will Never Embarrass Me Again"

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=15167

Why We Should Still Study the Cuban Missile Crisis

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20120124/news/701249841/video/23564656/

JFK library releases last of his secret tapes

http://www.usip.org/files/resources/sr205.pdf

Anniversary of The Assassination of John F. Kennedy

http://www.hisofamerica.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51:anniversary-of-the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy

Edited by Scott Kaiser
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David, first off I resent your attempt to dismiss me along with all other CTs, which include 80% of the people of the USA, as you previously listed a number of popular conspiracy theories, none of which I subscribe to.

Boo-hoo. Cry me the Ohio River, Bill.

I just can't muster too much respect and support for a person who says silly things like this:

"I say that LBJ used Kenny O'Donnell not only to get JFK to Dealey Plaza but to hijack AF1 for the return trip to D.C." -- William Kelly

And this:

"The evidence indicates Oswald didn't kill anyone." -- William Kelly

That last quote is so incredibly silly, bizarre, and dead wrong that Bill Kelly should be beet-red with embarrassment.

http://Oswald-Is-Guilty.blogspot.com

Edited by David Von Pein
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David, first off I resent your attempt to dismiss me along with all other CTs, which include 80% of the people of the USA, as you previously listed a number of popular conspiracy theories, none of which I subscribe to.

Boo-hoo. Cry me the Ohio River, Bill.

I just can't muster too much respect and support for a person who says silly things like this:

"I say that LBJ used Kenny O'Donnell not only to get JFK to Dealey Plaza but to hijack AF1 for the return trip to D.C." -- William Kelly

And this:

"The evidence indicates Oswald didn't kill anyone." -- William Kelly

That last quote is so incredibly silly (and dead wrong) that Bill Kelly should be beet-red with embarrassment.

http://Oswald-Is-Guilty.blogspot.com

Deleted

Edited by Scott Kaiser
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What makes you think that Oswald is guilty?

You're kidding, right Scott?

I assume that you ARE aware that every single piece of physical evidence in the entire JFK case points directly at Lee H. Oswald. You are aware of that fact, right?

Is ALL of the stuff mentioned at my websites below supposedly faked, manufactured, forged, planted, or otherwise tainted evidence? If not, then your patsy is guilty. Simple as that.

So if you'll be so kind as to provide me with you[r] information, I'll be more then [sic] happy to provide [you] with mine.

Okay:

http://Oswald-Is-Guilty.blogspot.com

http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com

http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/dvp-vs-dieugenio-complete-series.html

http://DavidVonPein.blogspot.com

Edited by David Von Pein
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David, first off I resent your attempt to dismiss me along with all other CTs, which include 80% of the people of the USA, as you previously listed a number of popular conspiracy theories, none of which I subscribe to.

Boo-hoo. Cry me the Ohio River, Bill.

I just can't muster too much respect and support for a person who says silly things like this:

"I say that LBJ used Kenny O'Donnell not only to get JFK to Dealey Plaza but to hijack AF1 for the return trip to D.C." -- William Kelly

And this:

"The evidence indicates Oswald didn't kill anyone." -- William Kelly

That last quote is so incredibly silly, bizarre, and dead wrong that Bill Kelly should be beet-red with embarrassment.

http://Oswald-Is-Guilty.blogspot.com

Well, since most of the believable evidence supports those two contentions, that LBJ lied about O'Donnell telling him to take AF1 and since Oswald was not on the Sixth Floor ten minutes before the assassination, when others were seen in the Sniper's window, and he wasn't there at the time of the assassination, and he doesn't have a bald spot on his head, as the Sixth Floor sniper had, and he wore a brown shirt and not the white shirt that the Sixth Floor Sniper had on, and he wasn't on the Sixth Floor two minutes later when someone was seen in the Sniper's window, I have only to conclude that Oswald wasn't the Sixth Floor Sniper.

You can believe anything you want, but the evidence does not indicate Oswald was the Sixth Floor Sniper, and since a reliable witness has reported that the Dallas Police said that Tippit was killed by someone other than Oswald, it does not appear that Oswald killed anyone that day.

If you want to consider this information incredibly silly, bizarre and dead wrong, then that's why few people respect your opinion and it is irrelevant.

I have offered you every opportunity to present the case against Oswald, and all you can do is insult those who sincerely study this case.

And the main point being that even if everything in the Oswald-is-Guilty blogspot is true, then because of Oswald's clear background as a covert intelligence operative, then whatever you believe happened at Dealey Plaza, it was a covert intelligence operation and not the result of a deranged loner.

Bill Kelly

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David, first off I resent your attempt to dismiss me along with all other CTs, which include 80% of the people of the USA, as you previously listed a number of popular conspiracy theories, none of which I subscribe to.

Boo-hoo. Cry me the Ohio River, Bill.

I just can't muster too much respect and support for a person who says silly things like this:

"I say that LBJ used Kenny O'Donnell not only to get JFK to Dealey Plaza but to hijack AF1 for the return trip to D.C." -- William Kelly

And this:

"The evidence indicates Oswald didn't kill anyone." -- William Kelly

That last quote is so incredibly silly, bizarre, and dead wrong that Bill Kelly should be beet-red with embarrassment.

http://Oswald-Is-Guilty.blogspot.com

Well, since most of the believable evidence supports those two contentions, that LBJ lied about O'Donnell telling him to take AF1 and since Oswald was not on the Sixth Floor ten minutes before the assassination, when others were seen in the Sniper's window, and he wasn't there at the time of the assassination, and he doesn't have a bald spot on his head, as the Sixth Floor sniper had, and he wore a brown shirt and not the white shirt that the Sixth Floor Sniper had on, and he wasn't on the Sixth Floor two minutes later when someone was seen in the Sniper's window, I have only to conclude that Oswald wasn't the Sixth Floor Sniper.

You can believe anything you want, but the evidence does not indicate Oswald was the Sixth Floor Sniper, and since a reliable witness has reported that the Dallas Police said that Tippit was killed by someone other than Oswald, it does not appear that Oswald killed anyone that day.

If you want to consider this information incredibly silly, bizarre and dead wrong, then that's why few people respect your opinion and it is irrelevant.

I have offered you every opportunity to present the case against Oswald, and all you can do is insult those who sincerely study this case.

And the main point being that even if everything in the Oswald-is-Guilty blogspot is true, then because of Oswald's clear background as a covert intelligence operative, then whatever you believe happened at Dealey Plaza, it was a covert intelligence operation and not the result of a deranged loner.

Bill Kelly

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David, first off I resent your attempt to dismiss me along with all other CTs, which include 80% of the people of the USA, as you previously listed a number of popular conspiracy theories, none of which I subscribe to.

Boo-hoo. Cry me the Ohio River, Bill.

I just can't muster too much respect and support for a person who says silly things like this:

"I say that LBJ used Kenny O'Donnell not only to get JFK to Dealey Plaza but to hijack AF1 for the return trip to D.C." -- William Kelly

And this:

"The evidence indicates Oswald didn't kill anyone." -- William Kelly

That last quote is so incredibly silly, bizarre, and dead wrong that Bill Kelly should be beet-red with embarrassment.

http://Oswald-Is-Guilty.blogspot.com

Well, since most of the believable evidence supports those two contentions, that LBJ lied about O'Donnell telling him to take AF1 and since Oswald was not on the Sixth Floor ten minutes before the assassination, when others were seen in the Sniper's window, and he wasn't there at the time of the assassination, and he doesn't have a bald spot on his head, as the Sixth Floor sniper had, and he wore a brown shirt and not the white shirt that the Sixth Floor Sniper had on, and he wasn't on the Sixth Floor two minutes later when someone was seen in the Sniper's window, I have only to conclude that Oswald wasn't the Sixth Floor Sniper.

You can believe anything you want, but the evidence does not indicate Oswald was the Sixth Floor Sniper, and since a reliable witness has reported that the Dallas Police said that Tippit was killed by someone other than Oswald, it does not appear that Oswald killed anyone that day.

If you want to consider this information incredibly silly, bizarre and dead wrong, then that's why few people respect your opinion and it is irrelevant.

I have offered you every opportunity to present the case against Oswald, and all you can do is insult those who sincerely study this case.

And the main point being that even if everything in the Oswald-is-Guilty blogspot is true, then because of Oswald's clear background as a covert intelligence operative, then whatever you believe happened at Dealey Plaza, it was a covert intelligence operation and not the result of a deranged loner.

Bill Kelly

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David, first off I resent your attempt to dismiss me along with all other CTs, which include 80% of the people of the USA, as you previously listed a number of popular conspiracy theories, none of which I subscribe to.

Boo-hoo. Cry me the Ohio River, Bill.

I just can't muster too much respect and support for a person who says silly things like this:

"I say that LBJ used Kenny O'Donnell not only to get JFK to Dealey Plaza but to hijack AF1 for the return trip to D.C." -- William Kelly

And this:

"The evidence indicates Oswald didn't kill anyone." -- William Kelly

That last quote is so incredibly silly, bizarre, and dead wrong that Bill Kelly should be beet-red with embarrassment.

http://Oswald-Is-Guilty.blogspot.com

Well, since most of the believable evidence supports those two contentions, that LBJ lied about O'Donnell telling him to take AF1 and since Oswald was not on the Sixth Floor ten minutes before the assassination, when others were seen in the Sniper's window, and he wasn't there at the time of the assassination, and he doesn't have a bald spot on his head, as the Sixth Floor sniper had, and he wore a brown shirt and not the white shirt that the Sixth Floor Sniper had on, and he wasn't on the Sixth Floor two minutes later when someone was seen in the Sniper's window, I have only to conclude that Oswald wasn't the Sixth Floor Sniper.

You can believe anything you want, but the evidence does not indicate Oswald was the Sixth Floor Sniper, and since a reliable witness has reported that the Dallas Police said that Tippit was killed by someone other than Oswald, it does not appear that Oswald killed anyone that day.

If you want to consider this information incredibly silly, bizarre and dead wrong, then that's why few people respect your opinion and it is irrelevant.

I have offered you every opportunity to present the case against Oswald, and all you can do is insult those who sincerely study this case.

And the main point being that even if everything in the Oswald-is-Guilty blogspot is true, then because of Oswald's clear background as a covert intelligence operative, then whatever you believe happened at Dealey Plaza, it was a covert intelligence operation and not the result of a deranged loner.

Bill Kelly

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20673422/Tippet.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20673422/Oswald%201.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20673422/Oswald%202.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20673422/Oswald%203.jpg

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David, first off I resent your attempt to dismiss me along with all other CTs, which include 80% of the people of the USA, as you previously listed a number of popular conspiracy theories, none of which I subscribe to.

Boo-hoo. Cry me the Ohio River, Bill.

I just can't muster too much respect and support for a person who says silly things like this:

"I say that LBJ used Kenny O'Donnell not only to get JFK to Dealey Plaza but to hijack AF1 for the return trip to D.C." -- William Kelly

And this:

"The evidence indicates Oswald didn't kill anyone." -- William Kelly

That last quote is so incredibly silly, bizarre, and dead wrong that Bill Kelly should be beet-red with embarrassment.

http://Oswald-Is-Guilty.blogspot.com

Well, since most of the believable evidence supports those two contentions, that LBJ lied about O'Donnell telling him to take AF1 and since Oswald was not on the Sixth Floor ten minutes before the assassination, when others were seen in the Sniper's window, and he wasn't there at the time of the assassination, and he doesn't have a bald spot on his head, as the Sixth Floor sniper had, and he wore a brown shirt and not the white shirt that the Sixth Floor Sniper had on, and he wasn't on the Sixth Floor two minutes later when someone was seen in the Sniper's window, I have only to conclude that Oswald wasn't the Sixth Floor Sniper.

You can believe anything you want, but the evidence does not indicate Oswald was the Sixth Floor Sniper, and since a reliable witness has reported that the Dallas Police said that Tippit was killed by someone other than Oswald, it does not appear that Oswald killed anyone that day.

If you want to consider this information incredibly silly, bizarre and dead wrong, then that's why few people respect your opinion and it is irrelevant.

I have offered you every opportunity to present the case against Oswald, and all you can do is insult those who sincerely study this case.

And the main point being that even if everything in the Oswald-is-Guilty blogspot is true, then because of Oswald's clear background as a covert intelligence operative, then whatever you believe happened at Dealey Plaza, it was a covert intelligence operation and not the result of a deranged loner.

Bill Kelly

Deleted

Edited by Scott Kaiser
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You won't need to convince me Oswald acted alone, I don't buy those kind of books, not even for humor or pleasure.

Yeah, I feel the same way about the kookbooks, like the ones written by Mark Lane, James H. Fetzer, John Armstrong, Jim DiEugenio, and all other CTers.

Also:

I can see your point, Scott. After all, why should anybody pay attention to the actual physical evidence in the JFK and Tippit murder cases? We should just assume it was all planted to frame Saint Oswald, right?

Edited by David Von Pein
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Thank You for posting that which I have already stated. Does that prove your point ? The Warren Report made statements that were NOT supported by the testimony. There's a BIG difference between the White House yielding to Connally and putting "the final stamp of approval" on the location.

That's like saying that a parent who doesn't want her kid to go to the mall, after hours of arguing with the kid and finally gives in, approves of it.

Your interpretation of the facts, as usual, is ridiculous.

PLEASE NOTE: The sequence of Dallas Morning News articles mentioned below was corrected after this was originally posted.

Gil,

I agree with your basic interpretation as to what happened, but, in some ways, it doesn't go far enough. To get the full picture, the analysis should not stop with O’Donnell. You have to include Jerry Bruno, JFK’s advance man, and the insights he affords.

Bruno’s 1971 book, Advance Man –co-written with Jeff Greenfield, and published in 1971—laid out the full story of what happened. There’s a whole chapter on Dallas. Bruno is a most important witness in this affair, and it’s scandalous that he was not called as a Warren Commission witness. Worse yet, he wasn't even interviewed by the FBI--and I have always found it hard to believe that that was simply an innocent oversight. He was intimately involved with the planning of the trip, for G-d's sake, so he had detailed knowledge of why the motorcade passed by the building where Oswald was employed.

When people point fingers at the Warren Commission and allege cover-up, the failure to call Bruno is critical. Innocent error? Oh pleez. . .

Now let’s return to the bigger picture, and the basic geometry of this crime. You must remember: if Oswald did not shoot JFK—and if the autopsy in this case was falsified, he certainly did not—then the creation of a “crossed-paths” situation between Oswald and Kennedy was crucial to the implementation of the plot. Oswald was the “politically correct” explanation to the Kennedy assassination; he had to be “on site” for this to work.

So the creation of a crossed-paths situation between the President to be killed, and the patsy to be framed, was one of several critical elements that were central to the implementation of this crime.

Of course, none of this will—or perhaps can not—be conceded by DVP, because were he to even think along these lines, then the numerous fault lines of this great “coincidence” suddenly appear, and the whole thing falls apart.

Let me limn in briefly some of my own past work in this area.

January, 1976: My input to the HSCA

After Bruno’s book was published, I managed to corner him at an appearance in Los Angeles, and he was vehement in his insistence that he would not talk about Dallas. (I’ll have more to say about that in a future writing).

In January, 1977, just after the HSCA was formed, I met with Belford Lawson (at the HSCA offices in Washington) and gave Lawson a fairly complete briefing on Bruno (who he’d never heard of before!). I stressed that Bruno was of critical importance and that he must be called as an HSCA witness. Lawson then wrote a memo to Blakey, mentioning me by name, the conversation we had just had, and my statement about the importance of Bruno. Subsequently (August, 1978), Bruno was called as a witness, and gave a very detailed deposition.

FYI: I have no problem with the Bruno deposition. Its as critical to anyone discussing the trip planning as the autopsy doctor’s testimony is to the post-mortem.

Bruno’s testimony, and the related documents he brought to his deposition are must reading. For one thing, they make very clear that, up until about November 7 or so, Bruno had every intention of having this affair at the Women’s Building, in Fair Park.

What also becomes very clear (both from the book, and the Bruno deposition) is that Connally—who was probably acting on behalf of LBJ and/or Dallas business interests—wanted the Trade Mart (and, btw, he had good reasons for wanting the Trade Mart, but that’s another story). Most important, Connally made made it crystal clear that if he didn’t get his way, he might even call off the trip.

THE HOTELS AND THE LIES OF CLIFF CARTER

Meanwhile, Bruno came up with certain alternate possibilities--specifically, other hotels as the possible luncheon site--and LBJ aide Clifton Carter lied to Bruno—that’s right, lied to Bruno—about the supposed non-availability of one of them—to keep the motorcade destination such that it would pass through Dealey Plaza.

But I digress. . . let’s get back to Bruno.

O'Donnell and the "decision"

I have no doubt that, technically speaking, Kenny O’Donnell made “the decision,” but it was a decision made because of Connally’s insistence: “my way or the highway."

The Trade Mart (as destination) of course assured that the motorcade would pass east-to-west through Dealey Plaza (and that meant going north on Houston, to then go west on Elm, in order to enter the Stemmons Freeway).

The “no motorcade”/ “yes motorcade” switcheroo:

But here’s something you’re not taking into account—and I doubt DVP is aware of it, either. While Connally wanted the Trade Mart as a speaking site, Connally did not want a motorcade, and made his position on that very clear.

So the “Trade Mart decision” was—from Connally’s POV—made in the context of there being “no motorcade.” The Dallas Trade Mart was simply a speaking site; the location where Kennedy would deliver a “luncheon speech.” This is reflected in the information as published in Friday morning's Dallas News. On Friday, November 15, 1963, the Dallas Morning News ran a “no-motorcade” story under the headline “JFK Motorcade Seems Unlikely”. The Dallas News made clear the time-source of its information. Specifically, The story states that the information was based on what the “the Dallas News was told Thursday [11/14].”

Here's the lead to that (written by Carl Freund): "A motorcade for President Kennedy appears unlikely when he visits the Dallas-Fort Worth area Nov. 22 despite numerous requests that he drive through the downtown areas of the two cities, The Dallas News was told Thursday."

Then, the next day—i.e., about 12 hours after the “Trade Mart decision” was made (and announced in the Dallas newspapers—another announcement was made: in effect: “Surprise! There’s going to be a motorcade after all!” On Saturday, November 16, the Dallas Morning News ran a story (by the same reporter, Carl Freund, that said the opposite, under the headline “JFK Due Dallas Motorcade.”

Here's the lead to that story, also written by Carl Freund: "The White Hosue flashed the green light Friday for President Kennedy to ride in a motorcade through Downtown Dallas, the Dallas News learned Friday. The President and Mrs. Kennedy are expected to drive west on Main Street at noon next Friday while en route to a luncheon in the Dallas Trade Mart on Stemmons Freeway."

That story (published on Saturday morning, 11/16) constituted the first announcement of a Dallas motorcade, and was based on information that “the Dallas News learned Friday. [11/15]”. Both news stories—written by the same reporter (Carl Freund)—are published as Warren Commission Exhibits (see WCE ___ and ___ , respectively). The two stories make clear that the “yes-motorcade” decision was made on Friday, November 15, the day after the Trade Mart was chosen as the Dallas luncheon site.

So basically, here’s the way the chronology unfolded, in three (count 'em, 3) distinct steps:

On Nov 14,1963 (in Washington) the decision was made to accede to Gov Connally and choose the Trade Mart;

Meanwhile, on that day, the Dallas Morning News was furnished information that there would be no

motorcade.

On November 15, 1963—it was publicly announced (based on 11/14 data) that there would be “no motorcade."

That story ran under the headline: "JFK Motorcade Seems Unlikely"

But then, as soon as the Trade Mart decision was locked up, and announced. . .

On November 16, 1963—it was announced that (yes) there would be a motorcade.

(That story ran on page one, under the headline: "JFK Due Dallas Motorcade")

Note: from the way the information was handled, Connally insisted upon (and won) the "luncheon site debate" before he knew there would be a "downtown motorcade" to that site.

I think that any reasonable reading of this evidence demonstrates that Connally was manipulated. He was used as the lobbyist to get the luncheon site chosen, while the information that there would be a motorcade to that site, was withheld (and not only from him, but from the public as well).

I can assure you that Connally was against a motorcade—so much so that, when he learned there would (in fact) be a motorcade, he then contacted Billy Graham, and tried to get Billy Graham to contact Kennedy and call off the Dallas trip.

THE ROLE OF BILL MOYERS

Furthermore, at the White House, Bill Moyers was sent to Austin, Texas, on Thursday night (or early Friday morning, 11/15). Moyers met with Connally (and his wife), in their kitchen, early on Friday morning, for an hour or more, imploring Connally to lay off, and to stop objecting to a “downtown motorcade”.

This is all described in the unpublished HSCA testimony of Bill Moyers (and Betty Harris); and I will be having plenty to say about all this in a future writing.

HOW CONNALLY WAS USED (probably by Lyndon)

The bottom line: Connally was “used” to lobby the White House (i.e., O'Donnell) and get the Trade Mart decision (as the luncheon site) made; and then, within a day, and over Connally’s objections, it was then announced that (yes) there would be a motorcade.

You must read what I just wrote carefully: Connally was definitely an enabler for the Trade Mart decision, but that decision was made out of context of there being any motorcade.

But then, within 12-24 hours, he realized what had just happened. In plain English, that’s when Connally had the realization that, by choosing the Trade Mart as the luncheon site, he was choosing the terminus of a motorcade route. I would guestimate that he understood this by Friday evening, November 15.

DID CONNALLY SMELL A RAT?

I think Connally smelled a rat from that point on, because then (later that weekend) he met with Billy Graham—i.e., after he had met with Moyers,in his kitchen—and tried to get Graham to get through to the President and call off the Dallas leg of the trip.

DVP—who more and more looks like nothing more than a shill for Bugliosi—is not going to accept any of this. Because he, like his buddy Bugliosi, sees Oswald as if he were Charles Manson, and the entire event as contingent on "coincidence". But beware: he is technically correct when he says that O’Donnell “chose” or “selected” the Trade Mart, but that is only part of the story: (a) it was under duress and (b ) it was done out of context (and here, I emphasize, “Connally’s context”) that there would even be a motorcade.

To the contrary, it was explicitly announced in the Dallas newspapers—prior to the Trade Mart being given a “green light”—that there would be “no motorcade.”

So this whole business is one big manipulation.

KENNETH O’DONNELL AND THE QUESTION OF MOTORCADES

One other point: let me assure you that Kenneth O’Donnell knew there would be a motorcade. He just assumed it. Kennedy “loved” motorcades—that’s just a fact. However, given Connally’s objections to a downtown motorcade, I would assume he soft-pedaled that in any conversations he had with Connally.

To recap: I do not think that Connally was part of the plot to kill Kennedy, but he was used to ram trough the Trade Mart decision, and then immediately smelled a rat, when he realized he had chosen a motorcade route, and then tried to call the trip off.

Furthermore, I have information that when he was on that very brief flight from Fort Worth to Dallas, Connally was told that the long (12 mile) “looping motorcade” through downtown was canceled, and that they’d be going at normal highway speed directly to the Trade Mart. In other words, Connally was lied to on the flight to Dallas.

But when he emerged from the plane, he saw otherwise—and realized he’d been lied to.

Just look at his face, standing next to Nellie, under the wing of the plane. I think he knew something was up; even if he didn’t know what (and I truly do not believe he knew “what”).

As we all know, his spontaneous exclamation when shot was, “Oh no no no, they are going to kill us all!”

Anyway, these are the subtleties, and some of the “moving parts” of how the Dallas motorcade came to follow the route it did, and pass by the building where the ex-Marine and (in Bobby Kennedy's words, "professed Marxist") who had lived in the USSR for 2-1/2 years plus, was employed.

DSL

2/11/12; 5:20 AM PST

Los Angeles, California

Edited by David Lifton
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