J. D. Tippit: Was he part of the conspiracy?

[Steve Thomas]

Duke,

There were two "Tippits" (phonetic) on DPD ... but the other was spelled Tippett. I don't recall the details offhand, but I recall that the latter was assigned downtown and frequented the Carousel. The pronunciation being the same, it is easy to understand how one could be confused with the other.

Yes, there were two Tippit's on the force. The other was G.M. Tippit. He was in Special Services - Vice.

He knew Jack when Jack was running the Silver Spur. They liked each other.

And as James has mentioned, there was a Tippett on the force as well.

Steve Thomas

[Chuck Robbins]

What difference does it make to Tippit's possible involvement whether Ruby knew Oswald?  Do you mean that Tippit knew Ruby, or that Tippit knew Oswald?

Eva Grant said that Ruby knew Tippit. As Grant was Ruby's sister this information needs to be taken seriously. The point that Buchanan is making is that Oswald, Ruby and Tippit were all involved in the original conspiracy. Most researchers are if the opinion that Ruby was only involved in the cover-up.

When Ruby mentioned Tippit's death, he said how sorry he was to hear of "Slick's" death.

How does one call Officer Tippit by an obvious nickname, "Slick", if he did not know him personally?

Just one more little slip that allows the truth to trickle out...no matter how deeply the B. S. has been spread.

Chuck

Chuck,

There were two "Tippits" (phonetic) on DPD ... but the other was spelled Tippett. I don't recall the details offhand, but I recall that the latter was assigned downtown and frequented the Carousel. The pronunciation being the same, it is easy to understand how one could be confused with the other.

I appreciate your response.

Yes, there was more than one "Tippit".

That was not the response I expected from my post.

In 1963, just as today, when police officers are killed in the line of duty their full name and photos are generally shown on TV. I find it hard to believe, especially with his contacts within the dept., that Ruby would not have known exactly which Tippit had been killed.

It would be interesting to find out which of these guys was known as "Slick".

If the "Slick" nick is found to have been one used by J. D. Tippit...we will then have established a connection between Ruby and Tippit which could not be explained away as a misidentification.

I am puzzled by the responses to my post. I expected at least one raised eyebrow to the possibility of a positive Ruby and Tippit link being established.

Is the concept so out there that it should be explained away without inquiry?

I am in CA and do not have any idea how to go about finding out this information.

Anyone in Dallas know whether this info is able to be confirmed through contact with Tippit's friends or fellow officers?

Chuck

Edited August 29, 2006 by Chuck Robbins

[William O'Neil]

... Given what we know about Tippit before 11/22/63, the context of the situation right before Tippit is killed (the president has just been assassinated, Tippit is looking frantically for someone, etc), would you agree with me that the fact that Tippit's gun was found OUT OF its holster, tends to suggest that whoever killed Tippit did so in self defense?

Actually, I just remembered something which totally destroys this theory, and just to show just how "openminded" I am, I will play the role of Devil's Advocate here: Didn't one of the witnesses testify that he/she had seen (the/one of the) killer(s) start walking away from the scene and then actually walk back to Tippit's body and administer a "coup de grace" pistol shot to Tippit's head? If so, this would argue against the killer(s) having shot Tippit out of self defense in the first place..... ???!

FWIW, Thomas

Thomas,

As I recall (without looking anything up), the "coup de grace" witness came up during the HSCA hearings. He was driving a car eastward toward Patton and watched the whole thing, he said. In any case, I have a copy of the Tippit autopsy (somewhere!) and photos from it, and he clearly has a hole in his right temple; what I cannot remember offhand is whether there was any notation in the autopsy report of "powder burns" or other indications that the bullet was fired from closer than the others that hit him in the thorax.

Lacking those references immediately, to pursue the "self defense" angle, you'd have to suggest that whomever it was that JDT stopped was a "quick draw" since the inference would be that an experienced police officer got out of the car pulling his own gun, and the person JDT "pulled over" noticed this and was able to draw and shoot his weapon before the cop — whose weapon was either already drawn or in the process of being drawn — could bring his own weapon to bear against the "suspect."

There is also the question whether the "suspect" could have seen that with the car between him and the cop. Think about it: a cop pulls up beside you in a hard-topped vehicle. You might even lean in toward his window to "converse" through the closed window (if pulling over a suspect, I can't imagine a cop leaning across the car to manually roll down the window to talk rather than simply getting out of the car, can you? Go through the motions yourself and tell me if you find yourself in a position of "control"), but once the cop starts to get up and out of his car the roof will be in your line of sight, you won't be seeing him draw his gun.

On the other hand — or, from the opposite perspective — you can imagine JDT getting out of the car, noticing that the "suspect" was drawing on him, reaching for his own gun and managing to get it out of the holster — but not to where he could use it against the "suspect" — before he was hit and fell down, with the gun beneath him.

Too, if JDT was drawing down on the "suspect," who drew and fired after seeing the cop's gun being drawn against him, one might possibly expect that, if JDT was prepared to fire in the first place (rule of thumb: don't draw unless prepared to fire), the gun might end up elsewhere than under his body, perhaps beside it.

This is hardly conclusive in any respect, but frankly, an "innocent civilian" should hardly be expected to draw on and fire at a police officer whether or not the officer is drawing his gun or already has it drawn. Perhaps that might be mitigated when, unprovoked, the officer draws a bead on you, but by that point, it's pretty well too late: you're not going to get your gun out and shoot him first.

Today (i.e., in the last 20 years or so), police are trained to draw quickly and to train their gun on a suspect immediately. This is not a casual endeavor: they don't "pull a Barney Fife" and get out with their hands on their guns as if they might draw, but to draw with certainty and intent. Drawing a gun is not a casual affair: it signals someone that you are prepared to fire upon them, and if you fire upon them, you are prepared to kill them. How many "innocent civilians" are willing to "duel" with a trained professional who intends, if necessary, to kill them?

The only testimony regarding "state of mind" is that of Helen Markham, who characterized it as a "friendly" conversation or encounter. If there were conflicting testimony, I might be inclined to discount HM's characterization, but lacking it, I'd be hard pressed to manufacture this scenario beyond mere speculation. What — beyond speculation — would suggest "self-defense," even leaving the "coup de grace" out of the equation?

Duke: It seems something must have been said or done, during the time that the "gunman" was talking to Tippet thru the passenger side window, to cause him to exit the patrol car and approach the suspect . This may have given the suspect a few seconds advantage, to draw down on the approaching cop. The front of the patrol car was low enough for someone to see Tippet draw or reach for his weapon.

Lee; The Tippet murder sight has changed alot over the years, some of the alleys/driveways you are interested in may not be there anymore. Good Luck!

[James Richards]

Yes, there were two Tippit's on the force. The other was G.M. Tippit. He was in Special Services - Vice. (Steve Thomas)

Steve,

Yes, you are indeed correct. I had forgotten about him.

As a footnote, during the mid 1970's, G.M. Tippit was the project co-ordinator for securing new helicopters for the DPD. The money came in the form of a grant handed out by the Texas Criminal Justice Council.

FWIW.

James

[Steve Thomas]

James,

Steve,

Yes, you are indeed correct. I had forgotten about him.

As a footnote, during the mid 1970's, G.M. Tippit was the project co-ordinator for securing new helicopters for the DPD. The money came in the form of a grant handed out by the Texas Criminal Justice Council.

G.M. was also the first Secretary of the Dallas Police Association - an early form of union activity. It caused an awful lot of heartbreak and division within the DPD ranks at the time.

Steve Thomas

[Dawn Meredith]

That was not the response I expected from my post.

I am puzzled by the responses to my post. I expected at least one raised eyebrow to the possibility of a positive Ruby and Tippit link being established.

Chuck

Chuck:

It's always been my understanding that all the local cops hung out at Ruby's club. So that Ruby knew Tippit is not surprising to me. (Unless of course Tippit kept out of strip joints, and I have not ever read/heard this).

Another question I wish I could ask J Harrsion who knew Tippit and his routine.

Dawn

[James Richards]

In an interview with Chicago attorney Elmer Gertz (who was part of the legal team which won the reversal of the death sentence given to Ruby in 1964), Bernard Gavzer wrote that when Ruby was asked about knowing Tippit, he said, "First of all, there were three Tippits in the police department. The one who was shot I never knew, never heard of. One of the other Tippits I knew."

FWIW.

James

[Chuck Robbins]

When Ruby mentioned Tippit's death, he said how sorry he was to hear of "Slick's" death.

How does one call Officer Tippit by an obvious nickname, "Slick", if he did not know him personally?

Just one more little slip that allows the truth to trickle out...no matter how deeply the B. S. has been spread.

Chuck

What Ruby said later could well be a prepared statement to fit a WC-esque scenario. Chuck or anyone else, where does this 'Slick' comment come from....and can we pin down which of the 3[!] Tippits on the force Ruby knew by that name....perhaps from one of his staff or friends?

I'll dig it up and post it.

I am pretty sure it was in a statement given to fritz.?

Bear with me....I've got tons of stuff to sift through to find it.

Edited August 30, 2006 by Chuck Robbins

[Duke Lane]

... Given what we know about Tippit before 11/22/63, the context of the situation right before Tippit is killed (the president has just been assassinated, Tippit is looking frantically for someone, etc), would you agree with me that the fact that Tippit's gun was found OUT OF its holster, tends to suggest that whoever killed Tippit did so in self defense? ....

...The only testimony regarding "state of mind" is that of Helen Markham, who characterized it as a "friendly" conversation or encounter. If there were conflicting testimony, I might be inclined to discount HM's characterization, but lacking it, I'd be hard pressed to manufacture this scenario beyond mere speculation. What — beyond speculation — would suggest "self-defense," even leaving the "coup de grace" out of the equation?

Duke: It seems something must have been said or done, during the time that the "gunman" was talking to Tippet thru the passenger side window, to cause him to exit the patrol car and approach the suspect . This may have given the suspect a few seconds advantage, to draw down on the approaching cop. The front of the patrol car was low enough for someone to see Tippet draw or reach for his weapon.

In my initial post, I used the term "suspect" as a hypothetical notion, as if the person was indeed a suspect, and as if JD Tippit was even looking for a suspect.

That hypothetical is not supported by any facts. At the time Tippit was ordered into Oak Cliff, there were no reports of any suspects, per se, at large (if the broadcast description from TSBD did, in fact, originate with Howard Brennan, it did not describe a fleeing suspect, but only one that had been "seen" in a window ... if Brennan actually saw anyone!), and there was certainly no notion that any had slipped off into Oak Cliff to the exclusion of any other location in Dallas. Indeed, "all downtown units" were ordered to Dealey Plaza in response to the "Signal 19 [shooting] involving the President," and none were ordered out of there ... not even after Tippit had been shot.

Contrary to popular mythology, Oswald was not the only TSBD employee "not present during a roll call." Not only were there other employees who had left the vicinity (including one man who said he had gone home for lunch), but a "roll call" never actually occurred. Moreover, it could not have occurred even if someone had thought of it because quite a number of TSBD employees were outside and were not allowed back into the building (and neither were those inside allowed out) until after 1:30, at which point Tippit was already indisputably dead. So how would this "roll call" have been made?

There was no apparent suspicion that any suspect had escaped the area since none of those "all downtown units" were dispatched beyond the immediate area of Elm & Houston to search for one ... and clearly any suspect fleeing anywhere would have to go through an area intermediate to TSBD and anywhere else before they could actually get to wherever "anywhere else" might have been.

There had not even been a report that someone had seen a suspect of any description leaving the area, evidenced by the fact that there is nothing on record indicating that anyone had left the TSBD area and railroad yards to search for anyone. The railroad yards, incidentally, lead away from Oak Cliff, not toward it.

"Anywhere else" could, of course, have included areas north, east and west of downtown with just as much likelihood as it could have included areas south of downtown, such as Oak Cliff is. It is therefore noteworthy not so much that Tippit was singled out to patrol any area at all, but that Oak Cliff was singled out as the ONLY area to be patrolled. NO other units were dispatched to ANY other area of town for ANY reason. It is even more noteworthy when you consider that DPD knew that there were already two other patrolmen, including the one who normally patrolled the area in the central Oak Cliff area. In fact, Tippit was dispatched to Oak Cliff about two minutes after DPD had already verified that one of those officers was in the area.

All of that, incidentally, is a matter of record, not speculation or theory.

If there was no roll call and if Oswald hadn't been the only person missing, then there was still no reason to link the Oak Cliff area with him or any suspect. Indeed, in just twenty minutes time, even if there had been a roll call and Oswald was the only person missing, there simply wasn't time to connect his absence with either his going home or where "home" was. The most accessible information about him would have come from TSBD, which indicated that he lived in Irving, several miles west, not south.

Tippit was not told to be on the lookout for anyone suspicious, and there is no reason to think that DPD considered it possible that any suspect might have gone to Oak Cliff. Rather, Tippit was told to "be at large for any emergency that might come in." What sort of "emergency" was envisioned there, and why only there? Nobody was dispatched to any of the ritzier areas of town, like Turtle Creek or University Park, nor to any industrialized area or even run-down section of town, only Oak Cliff which was then very much "middle-class."

(That the area was not considered a particularly important area - other than for the fact that it, alone, was singled out for an "at large" patrol - is evidenced by the fact that RC Nelson, who had also been told to go to Oak Cliff, radioed in twice to effectively tell them that he was ignoring their order, and nobody countermanded what he said that he was doing - which was crossing the viaduct into downtown and getting "out down here" at TSBD - and that nobody thought to try contacting Tippit during the time he was "at large.")

A friend of mine has observed that "all dead cops are heroes," even if nobody even remotely thought of them that way before their deaths (have you ever heard, for example, that "the corrupt officer was shot down and thus avoided being fired and prosecuted?"). As an alert "hero," Tippit never even radioed in at any time, not while he was supposedly "looking for a suspect" and certainly not when he supposedly thought he'd found one. Since he did not, and since the only "state of mind" characterization of the encounter between Tippit and his assailant was as "real friendly like," there is no cause to think that Tippit thought he was encountering a "suspect" or that he even remotely thought of whoever it was he met as being a suspect.

The encounter being as it was described - "real friendly like" - whatever "cause[d] him to exit the patrol car" could simply be the ease of talking with whomever he'd met without a closed window being in the way or having to reach across the car to roll it down (putting himself at a disadvantage, if that was a consideration). Indeed, since there is no real indication that he was in any way on "high alert," it is as likely as anything else that Tippit may have envisioned leaning against the side of his car and having a friendly chat with someone he knew on a cool, sunny autumn afternoon in a quiet neighborhood.

Indeed, every indication - absent the blind faith (and that's what it is) that Tippit was being a hero and was looking for a suspect even tho' he hadn't been ordered to and did encounter Oswald rather than someone else - is that that's exactly what occurred. Contrary to his expectations, however, he got shot and killed. Poor dumb cop.

So the important question, then, is "why Oak Cliff?" It's not "why Tippit" (as people seem to like to focus on, although that, too, is a legitimate question ... but in a different context) or why Tippit did anything any particular way, but "why Oak Cliff?" Since there were two cops already there, what possible purpose did his presence there "at large" serve ... other than to get him killed and thence to get a large number of cops away from Dealey Plaza?

The bottom-line answer? None.

[William O'Neil]

Exellent reasoning Duke, the best synopsis of the situation I've come across.

-Bill

[Chuck Robbins]

It is even more noteworthy when you consider that DPD knew that there were already two other patrolmen, including the one who normally patrolled the area in the central Oak Cliff area. In fact, Tippit was dispatched to Oak Cliff about two minutes after DPD had already verified that one of those officers was in the area.

All of that, incidentally, is a matter of record, not speculation or theory.

So the important question, then, is "why Oak Cliff?" It's not "why Tippit" (as people seem to like to focus on, although that, too, is a legitimate question ... but in a different context) or why Tippit did anything any particular way, but "why Oak Cliff?" Since there were two cops already there, what possible purpose did his presence there "at large" serve ... other than to get him killed and thence to get a large number of cops away from Dealey Plaza?

The bottom-line answer? None.

Duke,

The colored text highlights what I believe to be the key to the Tippit murder.

You and I have discussed this before. Officer Parker, I believe it was, notified dispatch that he would be on E. Jefferson.

This is in the immediate vicinity of where Tippit was killed. Is it coincidence that Tippit is sent there only after Parker indicates he is to be in the area?

The recent posting of information, indicating another police car was seen in the alley, which had been blocked by Tippit's car, leads me to believe that Parker and Tippit had met there for some unknown reason. (I believe it was Parker because you indicated previously the other officer was in a diner at that time)

If there is a picture of Parker from 1963 available it would be interesting to see whether or not he resembled Oswald in any manner.

I have read the available transcripts and Parker makes no further contact with dispatch that day. Cops normally maintain contact with dispatch throughout their shift.

The friendly exchange witnessed between Tippit and his killer makes sense if the person he was speaking with was another police officer.

***This is purely speculation on my part. I welcome all responses.

Edited August 30, 2006 by Chuck Robbins

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

In an interview with Chicago attorney Elmer Gertz (who was part of the legal team which won the reversal of the death sentence given to Ruby in 1964), Bernard Gavzer wrote that when Ruby was asked about knowing Tippit, he said, "First of all, there were three Tippits in the police department. The one who was shot I never knew, never heard of. One of the other Tippits I knew."

FWIW.

James

On December 5, 1963, during a telephone interview, Ruby's sister Eva Grant told the New York Herald Tribune that: "Jack knew [Officer Tippit] and I knew him.... Jack called him "buddy." [i've read a single reference, though I cannot currently recall where, that among Tippit's nicknames was "Buddy," giving the Eva Grant quote a slightly different connotation than was inferred by the writer.]

On the same date, Eva Grant told the Boston Globe that: "Jack knew J.D. Tippit - I knew him too. He used to come into both the Vegas Club and the Carousel Club many times. He was a fine man."

Needless to say, Eva Grant's appearance before the Warren Commission saw her saying something else, in order that the Commission could conclude there was no evidence Tippit and Ruby knew each other. To wit:

"Speculation.--Ruby's sister, Mrs. Eva Grant, said that Ruby and Tippit were "like two brothers."

Commission finding.--Mrs. Grant has denied ever making this statement or any statement like it, saying it was untrue and without foundation. Ruby was acquainted with another Dallas policeman named Tippit, but this was G. M. Tippit of the special services bureau of the department, not the Tippit who was killed."

How did Eva Grant recant what she'd told several reporters some months earlier? By confusing the issue by naming all the DPD cops who had a similar name:

Mr. Burleson: Do you know whether or not Jack knew Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mrs. Grant: He said he knew a Tippit but it's like me there was a Tipton, a Tippit, and a Tipin (spelling) p-i-n, and a Tipton, and as far as I was concerned, even when Payton was talking to me, they were all the same man, until much later I found out there are three Tippits, there is a Tipton and a Tipin.

This non-denial response served to confuse more than explain. Unfortunately for Mrs. Grant's credibility, others recalled only too well precisely the same information she's earlier shared with news reporters, only to deny it to the Commission.

For example, here's what the FBI learned from Stella Coffman, Ruby's head waitress from 1948 to 1953 at the Silver Spur: "Officer Tippit had patrolled the area of the Silver Spur, which Jack used to own. He made numerous visits to the club and was a close friend of Jack's."

Here's what Larry Crafard, Ruby's Carousel Club gofer told the Commission about Ruby's response upon learning of Tippit's death: "Ruby said he knew Tippit, and Ruby referred to him by his first name, or a nickname, neither of which I can remember now. He said he knew him quite well. He was definitely referring to J.D. Tippit, the Dallas Police Officer who was shot on the day of the assassination."

Andrew Armstrong, the Carousel Club assistant manager and general factotum, was also present when Ruby learned of Tippit's death, and corroborated Crafard's account:

Mr. Hubert: Did you know Officer Tippit, the man that was shot by Oswald?

Mr. Armstrong: No, sir.

Mr. Hubert: Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew him?

Mr. Armstrong: He said that he knew Officer Tippit, but from what I gather later on--Mrs. Grant told me it was a different Officer Tippit that he knew. In other words, there was two officers that had the name of Tippit, from what I gather, and Jack said when the news was coming over the radio about the policeman being shot, that it was Officer Tippit; Jack jumped straight up and said, "I know him--I know him." Just like that.

From the foregoing, it seems clear that Ruby knew Tippit reasonably well. His sister told reporters that this was so. Stella Coffman, who'd worked for Ruby a decade earlier at the Silver Spur recalled seeing Tippit there and called him Ruby's "close friend." Ruby's contemporary employees said it was true by Ruby's own spontaneous admission [with Crafard accommodatingly specifying that it was "J.D." and no other Tippit]. Eva Grant's subsequent attempt to persuade Armstrong otherwise, and to obfuscate before the Commission, was a poor attempt to lock the barn door well after the horses had already bolted.

[Duke Lane]

It is even more noteworthy when you consider that DPD knew that there were already two other patrolmen, including the one who normally patrolled the area in the central Oak Cliff area. In fact, Tippit was dispatched to Oak Cliff about two minutes after DPD had already verified that one of those officers was in the area.

Duke,

The colored text highlights what I believe to be the key to the Tippit murder. You and I have discussed this before. Officer Parker, I believe it was, notified dispatch that he would be on E. Jefferson. This is in the immediate vicinity of where Tippit was killed. Is it coincidence that Tippit is sent there only after Parker indicates he is to be in the area?

Actually, it was the unit number assigned to Parker - not necessarily Parker - that indicated that he would be "out for five" with no location given ... until the dispatcher asked for his location, which he replied was "East Jefferson." The call to Tippit to report to central Oak Cliff was the next call made.

Parker's assigned patrol area was ten miles to the east, on the Garland town line. All of East Jefferson is in Oak Cliff.

No, I don't think it's a coincidence ... any more than I think it's a coincidence that dispatch next asks Tippit his whereabouts in exactly the amount of time it has taken me to travel from where he was to where he'd gotten to, eight minutes. Watch for "What Was Harry Hiding?" sometime in the not-too-distant future for an explanation (tho' I don't know that here is where you'll find it).

(continued)

The recent posting of information, indicating another police car was seen in the alley, which had been blocked by Tippit's car, leads me to believe that Parker and Tippit had met there for some unknown reason. (I believe it was Parker because you indicated previously the other officer was in a diner at that time.)

If there is a picture of Parker from 1963 available it would be interesting to see whether or not he resembled Oswald in any manner.

I have read the available transcripts and Parker makes no further contact with dispatch that day. Cops normally maintain contact with dispatch throughout their shift.

The friendly exchange witnessed between Tippit and his killer makes sense if the person he was speaking with was another police officer.

***This is purely speculation on my part. I welcome all responses.

The other officer was WD Mentzel, the regular patrol officer for that district, the only one that was singled out to be "augmented" by an additional "at large" patrol (Tippit). He was in Luby's Cafeteria on Jefferson at the time, the only patrol officer in Dallas taking lunch at that time.

I don't believe that Parker could have been the shooter if only because it is indisputable that the shooter ran two blocks away from where the patrol car (even assuming it was Parker's) was supposedly parked between two houses, and the patrol car supposedly started up and backed up toward the alley almost immediately after the shooting.

I say "supposedly" because all of that would depend upon the veracity of the storyteller, who had died by the time the story came out. The identity of the shooter could also depend on the veracity of another story - I'm thinking that it's one told by Frank Ellsworth? - of a man seen at DPD following LHO's arrest, or if I'm remembering it correctly.

According to Officer Tom Tilson ("The Black Car Chase" made famous by Jim Marrs, and infamous by my related mini-story "Tom Tilson Tells Tall Tales"), that Tippit had been dating someone who lived on the south side of 10th Street was a matter of "common knowledge" among DPD. If both of those things are true (whether or not Tilson knew them himself), Tippit's being shot by another officer makes a lot of sense, and would explain why the conversation was "real friendly like" as well as why he'd not only have gotten out of the car, but had been slowing down, maybe even stopping there on 10th, in the first place.

It would also explain a lot of other things that I don't have time to get into right now, but the explanation of "controlling the evidence" leaps to the fore.

[James Richards]

From the foregoing, it seems clear that Ruby knew Tippit reasonably well. His sister told reporters that this was so. Stella Coffman, who'd worked for Ruby a decade earlier at the Silver Spur recalled seeing Tippit there and called him Ruby's "close friend." Ruby's contemporary employees said it was true by Ruby's own spontaneous admission [with Crafard accommodatingly specifying that it was "J.D." and no other Tippit]. Eva Grant's subsequent attempt to persuade Armstrong otherwise, and to obfuscate before the Commission, was a poor attempt to lock the barn door well after the horses had already bolted. (Robert Charles-Dunne)

Thanks, Robert. Most interesting.

BTW, given Duke's mention of W.D. Mentzel, I thought it would be worth noting that his very close friend and fellow police officer, Wilson F. Warren was also known as 'Slick'.

In the image below, that is Mentzel on the left and Warren on the right.

FWIW.

James

Edited August 31, 2006 by James Richards

[Ron Ecker]

James,

There must be some mistake. That looks to me like a picture of George H.W. Bush and William Harvey. (I wonder what they could be talking about.)

Ron