Robin Unger Posted June 7, 2007 Author Share Posted June 7, 2007 (edited) Hi Miles :Check the photos I just posted, I had trouble attaching them.. Keep in mind please, just how much was fabricated within all.. the evidence, imo.. .Especially have a look at CE 351.. No, not away, just on the search, and reading....we women you know come and go at our own whim. B Nice job Bernice. Edited June 7, 2007 by Robin Unger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted June 7, 2007 Author Share Posted June 7, 2007 Notice that the drivers visor is now in the DOWN position conveniently covering the crack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 (edited) There is CONSIDERABLE EVIDENCE of a THROUGH-AND-THROUGH bullet hole(not a crack) in the windshield. A newsman said he STUCK A PENCIL THROUGH THE HOLE. See the work of Doug Weldon in Murder in Dealey Plaza. Jack ____________________ Jack, I agree. Just because it ain't visible in some of the photos don't mean it warn't there. If anyone want to read 'bout it a little bit on the famous Spartacus Website, all they got to do is click on this here link: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKweldonD.htm --Thomas P.S. Why did you post the link to the "University of Texas at Arlington Library" website? I'm sure you did so for a very pertinent reason, but what exactly are we supposed to click on??? --Thanks P.P.S. Go Froggies! Purple Haze, baby! ____________________ Edited June 7, 2007 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 There is CONSIDERABLE EVIDENCE of a THROUGH-AND-THROUGH bullet hole(not a crack) in the windshield. A newsman said he STUCK A PENCIL THROUGH THE HOLE. See the work of Doug Weldon in Murder in Dealey Plaza. Jack ____________________ Jack, I agree. Just because it ain't visible in some of the photos don't mean it warn't there. If anyone want to read 'bout it a little bit on the famous Spartacus Website, all they got to do is click on this here link: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKweldonD.htm --Thomas P.S. Why did you post the link to the "University of Texas at Arlington Library" website? I'm sure you did so for a very pertinent reason, but what exactly are we supposed to click on??? --Thanks P.P.S. Go Froggies! Purple Haze, baby! ____________________ Thomas...that link was originally kindly posted by John Simkin because it contains my biographical sketch. At some point after that, UTA revised its website and changed the URL. I sent a message giving the new URL (which I do not have at the moment because of a computer crash Tuesday), and asked John to please replace the obsolete URL with the new one. I never heard from John on this, but instead got a nasty reply from Andy telling me to go to hell and do it myself. I replied that I had no idea how to do it, since John Simkin had installed it originally. This evolved into a heated exchange in which Andy said they would not "baby" me just because I'm senile...and it went downhill from that point. The obsolete link never was changed to the correct one because I still do not know how. Thanks for asking. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 Thomas...that link was originally kindly posted by John Simkin because it contains my biographical sketch.At some point after that, UTA revised its website and changed the URL. I sent a message giving the new URL (which I do not have at the moment because of a computer crash Tuesday), and asked John to please replace the obsolete URL with the new one. I never heard from John on this, but instead got a nasty reply from Andy telling me to go to hell and do it myself. I replied that I had no idea how to do it, since John Simkin had installed it originally. This evolved into a heated exchange in which Andy said they would not "baby" me just because I'm senile...and it went downhill from that point. The obsolete link never was changed to the correct one because I still do not know how. Thanks for asking. Jack _______________________________ Jack, I understand. Thanks. Hope your computer is okay now.... --Thomas _______________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 (edited) There is CONSIDERABLE EVIDENCE of a THROUGH-AND-THROUGH bullet hole(not a crack) in the windshield. A newsman said he STUCK A PENCIL THROUGH THE HOLE. See the work of Doug Weldon in Murder in Dealey Plaza. Jack [...] http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKweldonD.htm --Thomas [...] Edited June 8, 2007 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 (edited) There is CONSIDERABLE EVIDENCE of a THROUGH-AND-THROUGH bullet hole(not a crack) in the windshield. A newsman said he STUCK A PENCIL THROUGH THE HOLE. See the work of Doug Weldon in Murder in Dealey Plaza. Jack [...] http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKweldonD.htm --Thomas [...] __________________________ bump a bagel for the dough-nut man.... __________________________ Edited June 8, 2007 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted June 12, 2007 Author Share Posted June 12, 2007 (edited) Credit Bernice: This is the first time i have actually seen a Secret Service report which mentions a " HOLE " in the windshield. Quote: Oh BTW....there was a hole in the Windshield see the SS Report below.......... Record Number 180-10099-10390 Agency File Number 002528 Originator-WC From: Taylor, Charles E. To: Date: 11/27/63 Pages: 4 Subjects: Kennedy, John, Autopsy Evidence, Medical Wound Ballistics USSS Date of release: 12/16/93 Contents: Secret Service Report dated 11/27/63 by Agents Charles E. Taylor, Jr. and Harry W. Geiglein on investigation of clues found in the Presidential limousine. Document follows in full. ORIGIN: White House Detail OFFICE: Washington, D.C. FILE NO.: CO-2-34,030 TYPE OF CASE: Protective Research STATUS: Closed INVESTIGATION MADE AT: Washington, D.C. PERIOD COVERED: November 22-23, 1963 INVESTIGATION MADE BY: SAIC Harry W. Geiglein SA Charles E. Taylor, Jr. TITLE OR CAPTION: Assassination of President John F. Kennedy SYNOPSIS This report relates to the measures employed to effect security of the President's car, 100-X, and the follow-up car, 679-X, on return from Dallas, Texas, following the assassination of President Kennedy. DETAILS OF INVESTIGATION This investigation was initiated on November 22, 1963, following receipt of instructions from ASAIC Floyd M. Boring, White House Detail, that steps be taken to effect security of the President's car (100-X) and the follow-up car (679-X) on their return from Dallas, Texas. President John F. Kennedy occupied the rear seat of SS-100-X when he was assassinated, and SS-679-X was directly behind the Presidential limousine at the time of the assassination. There two vehicles were driven to Love Field, Dallas, Texas, for immediate transportation to Andrews Air Force Base, Washington, D.C. Following the arrival of President Lyndon B. Johnson and the remains of President Kennedy at Andrews Air Force Base, the reporting Special Agents conferred with Captain Milton B. Hartenblower, Duty Operations Officer, and Lt. Colonel Robert Best, Provost Marshal, Andrews Air Force Base, to arrange for landing instruction of the Air Force cargo plane transporting the subject vehicles and to escort these vehicles from Andrews Air Force Base. Also, arrangements were made with the U.S. Park Police for motorcycle escort of these automobiles to the White House Garage. DISTRIBUTION: Chief Washington COPIES: Orig. & 2 cc 2 cc REPORT MADE BY: /s/ Charles E. Taylor, Jr. DATE: 11/27/63 Charles E. Taylor, Jr. APPROVED: /s/ Harry W. Geiglein DATE: 11/27/63 Harry W. Geiglein SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: Harry W. Geiglein CO-2-34,030 Page 2 At 8:00 P.M. on November 22, 1963, SS-100-X and SS-679-X arrived at Andrews Air Force Base on Air Force Cargo Plane No. 612373 (C-130-E), which plane was assigned to the 78th Air Transport Squadron from Charleston Air Force Base and piloted by Captain Thomason. The plane was taxied to a point just off of Runway 1028, approximately 100 yards from the Control Tower at Andrews AFB, and a security cordon was placed around the aircraft while these vehicles were being unloaded. On the plane accompanying these vehicles were Special Agents Kinney and Hickey. The Presidential vehicles were driven under escort to the White House Garage at 22nd and M Streets, N.W., Washington, D.C., arriving at approximately 9:00 P.M. SS-100-X was driven by SA Kinney, accompanied by SA Taylor, and SS-679-x was driven by SA Hickey, accompanied by Special Agents Keiser and Brett. On arrival, SS-100-X was backed into the designated parking bin and SS-679-X was parked a few feet away. A plastic cover was placed over SS-100-X and it was secured. The follow-up car, SS-679-X, was locked and secured. Special Agents Keiser, Brett, and the reporting Special Agent effected security, assisted by White House Policemen Snyder and Rubenstal. At 10:10 P.M., Deputy Chief Paterni, ASAIC Boring, and representatives from Dr. Burkley's office at the White House, William Martinell and Thomas Mills, inspected SS-100-X. At 12:01 A.M., November 23, 1963, the security detail was relieved by Special Agents Paraschos and Kennedy and White House Policeman J. W. Edwards. At 1:00 A.M., as per arrangements by Deputy Chief Paterni, a team of FBI Agents examined the Presidential limousine. This team was comprised of Orrin H. Bartlett, Charles L. Killian, Cortlandt Cunningham, Robert A. Frazier, and Walter E. Thomas . Mr. Orin Bartlett drove the Presidential vehicle out of the bin. The team of FBI Agents, assisted by the Secret Service Agents on duty, removed the leatherette convertible top and the plexi-glass bubbletop; also the molding strips that secure the floor matting, and the rear seat. What appeared to be bullet fragments were removed from the windshield and the floor rug in the rear of the car. CO-2-34,030 Page 3 The two blankets on the left and right rear doors were removed, inspected, and returned to the vehicle. The trunk of the vehicle was opened and the contents examined, and nothing was removed. A meticulous examination was made of the back seat to the car and the floor rug, and no evidence was found.In addition, of particular note was the small hole just to the left of center in the windshield from which what appeared to be bullet fragments were removed The team of agents also noted that the chrome molding strip above the windshield, inside the car, just right of center, was dented. The FBI Agents stated that this dent was made by the bullet fragment which was found imbedded in the front cushion. Edited June 12, 2007 by Robin Unger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Credit Bernice:This is the first time i have actually seen a Secret Service report which mentions a " HOLE " in the windshield. The two blankets on the left and right rear doors were removed, inspected, and returned to the vehicle. The trunk of the vehicle was opened and the contents examined, and nothing was removed. A meticulous examination was made of the back seat to the car and the floor rug, and no evidence was found.In addition, of particular note was the small hole just to the left of center in the windshield from which what appeared to be bullet fragments were removed The team of agents also noted that the chrome molding strip above the windshield, inside the car, just right of center, was dented. The FBI Agents stated that this dent was made by the bullet fragment which was found imbedded in the front cushion. Good point, Robin. The characterization or description of the hole ("small hole" "from which what appeared to be bullet fragments were removed") doesn't seem to suggest a through & through bullet puncture. "Small" would suggest a hole smaller than a bullet hole. Otherwise why not just call it an "apparent bullet hole?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 (edited) Credit Bernice:This is the first time i have actually seen a Secret Service report which mentions a " HOLE " in the windshield. The two blankets on the left and right rear doors were removed, inspected, and returned to the vehicle. The trunk of the vehicle was opened and the contents examined, and nothing was removed. A meticulous examination was made of the back seat to the car and the floor rug, and no evidence was found.In addition, of particular note was the small hole just to the left of center in the windshield from which what appeared to be bullet fragments were removed The team of agents also noted that the chrome molding strip above the windshield, inside the car, just right of center, was dented. The FBI Agents stated that this dent was made by the bullet fragment which was found imbedded in the front cushion. Good point, Robin. The characterization or description of the hole ("small hole" "from which what appeared to be bullet fragments were removed") doesn't seem to suggest a through & through bullet puncture. "Small" would suggest a hole smaller than a bullet hole. Otherwise why not just call it an "apparent bullet hole?" >>>>>>>>>> Hi Miles: I have to say and ..I will admit I found what you said hits me as being very funny..thanks......according to the .."Dictionary.....a.Hole.....1. an opening through something; gap; aperture: a hole in the roof; a hole in my sock. "" A hole is a hole through ,which means a hole is a hole..... I do not believe the SS were that backwards not to know, what a hole was, do you really ?? ""Otherwise why not just call it an "apparent bullet hole?"" Simple, they did not use your wording....they used their own..you were not there to advise them.. Have you seen the thickness of a standard pencil of late, I am sure none of the witnesses who mentioned such in reference to the diameter of the hole, was thinking of such as a carpenters thick pencil.....any shot through the windshield would have created fragments on the opposite side......Bullets make small entry wounds, unless you have an elephant gun..... Here again is the SS Agents Charles Taylor & Harry Geiglein report.. Record Number 180-10099-10390 Agency File Number 002528 Originator-WC From: Taylor, Charles E. To: Date: 11/27/63 Pages: 4 Subjects: Kennedy, John, Autopsy Evidence, Medical Wound Ballistics USSS Date of release: 12/16/93 Contents: Secret Service Report dated 11/27/63 by Agents Charles E. Taylor, Jr. and Harry W. Geiglein on investigation of clues found in the Presidential limousine. Document follows in full. ORIGIN: White House Detail OFFICE: Washington, D.C. FILE NO.: CO-2-34,030 TYPE OF CASE: Protective Research STATUS: Closed INVESTIGATION MADE AT: Washington, D.C. PERIOD COVERED: November 22-23, 1963 INVESTIGATION MADE BY: SAIC Harry W. Geiglein SA Charles E. Taylor, Jr. TITLE OR CAPTION: Assassination of President John F. Kennedy SYNOPSIS This report relates to the measures employed to effect security of the President's car, 100-X, and the follow-up car, 679-X, on return from Dallas, Texas, following the assassination of President Kennedy. DETAILS OF INVESTIGATION This investigation was initiated on November 22, 1963, following receipt of instructions from ASAIC Floyd M. Boring, White House Detail, that steps be taken to effect security of the President's car (100-X) and the follow-up car (679-X) on their return from Dallas, Texas. President John F. Kennedy occupied the rear seat of SS-100-X when he was assassinated, and SS-679-X was directly behind the Presidential limousine at the time of the assassination. There two vehicles were driven to Love Field, Dallas, Texas, for immediate transportation to Andrews Air Force Base, Washington, D.C. Following the arrival of President Lyndon B. Johnson and the remains of President Kennedy at Andrews Air Force Base, the reporting Special Agents conferred with Captain Milton B. Hartenblower, Duty Operations Officer, and Lt. Colonel Robert Best, Provost Marshal, Andrews Air Force Base, to arrange for landing instruction of the Air Force cargo plane transporting the subject vehicles and to escort these vehicles from Andrews Air Force Base. Also, arrangements were made with the U.S. Park Police for motorcycle escort of these automobiles to the White House Garage. DISTRIBUTION: Chief Washington COPIES: Orig. & 2 cc 2 cc REPORT MADE BY: /s/ Charles E. Taylor, Jr. DATE: 11/27/63 Charles E. Taylor, Jr. APPROVED: /s/ Harry W. Geiglein DATE: 11/27/63 Harry W. Geiglein SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: Harry W. Geiglein CO-2-34,030 Page 2 At 8:00 P.M. on November 22, 1963, SS-100-X and SS-679-X arrived at Andrews Air Force Base on Air Force Cargo Plane No. 612373 (C-130-E), which plane was assigned to the 78th Air Transport Squadron from Charleston Air Force Base and piloted by Captain Thomason. The plane was taxied to a point just off of Runway 1028, approximately 100 yards from the Control Tower at Andrews AFB, and a security cordon was placed around the aircraft while these vehicles were being unloaded. On the plane accompanying these vehicles were Special Agents Kinney and Hickey. The Presidential vehicles were driven under escort to the White House Garage at 22nd and M Streets, N.W., Washington, D.C., arriving at approximately 9:00 P.M. SS-100-X was driven by SA Kinney, accompanied by SA Taylor, and SS-679-x was driven by SA Hickey, accompanied by Special Agents Keiser and Brett. On arrival, SS-100-X was backed into the designated parking bin and SS-679-X was parked a few feet away. A plastic cover was placed over SS-100-X and it was secured. The follow-up car, SS-679-X, was locked and secured. Special Agents Keiser, Brett, and the reporting Special Agent effected security, assisted by White House Policemen Snyder and Rubenstal. At 10:10 P.M., Deputy Chief Paterni, ASAIC Boring, and representatives from Dr. Burkley's office at the White House, William Martinell and Thomas Mills, inspected SS-100-X. At 12:01 A.M., November 23, 1963, the security detail was relieved by Special Agents Paraschos and Kennedy and White House Policeman J. W. Edwards. At 1:00 A.M., as per arrangements by Deputy Chief Paterni, a team of FBI Agents examined the Presidential limousine. This team was comprised of Orrin H. Bartlett, Charles L. Killian, Cortlandt Cunningham, Robert A. Frazier, and Walter E. Thomas . Mr. Orin Bartlett drove the Presidential vehicle out of the bin. The team of FBI Agents, assisted by the Secret Service Agents on duty, removed the leatherette convertible top and the plexi-glass bubbletop; also the molding strips that secure the floor matting, and the rear seat. What appeared to be bullet fragments were removed from the windshield and the floor rug in the rear of the car. CO-2-34,030 Page 3 The two blankets on the left and right rear doors were removed, inspected, and returned to the vehicle. The trunk of the vehicle was opened and the contents examined, and nothing was removed. A meticulous examination was made of the back seat to the car and the floor rug, and no evidence was found. In addition, of particular note was the small hole just to the left of center in the windshield from which what appeared to be bullet fragments were removed. The team of agents also noted that the chrome molding strip above the windshield, inside the car, just right of center, was dented. The FBI Agents stated that this dent was made by the bullet fragment which was found imbedded in the front cushion. During the course of this examination, a number of color photos were taken by this FBI <"FBI" inserted in longhand with an arrow> search team. They concluded their examination at 4:30 A.M. and the President's car was reassembled and put back in the storage bin. At 8:00 A.M. on November 23, the security detail was relieved by Special Agents Hancock and Davis and White House Policeman J. C. Rowe. SA Gonzalez relieved SA Hancock at Noon and at 4:00 P.M., Messrs, Fox and Norton, Protective Research Section, photographed the Presidential limousine. At 4:30 P.M., SA Gonzalez contacted SAIC Bouck and Deputy Chief Paterni and, at their request, the flowers, torn pieces of paper, and other miscellaneous debris were removed from the floor of the car (SS-100-X) and taken to the Washington Field Office. At that time, the special detail securing the Presidential limousine and the follow-up car was discontinued. DISPOSITION This case is closed with the submission of this report. CET:mkd ************ Here also is a post by Ron Ecker Dec.04 on Kellerman's information....to the WC.. It is apparent from the WC testimony of SS agent Roy Kellerman that the damaged windshield was switched, not once but at least twice, between the shooting and the time that a windshield was brought into the WC hearing for Kellerman to examine. It should be noted, to begin with, that Kellerman believed there was a conspiracy, as is evident from his testimony that there had to be more than three shots. (And Senator Cooper obviously couldn’t believe what he heard.) I think that this would eliminate Kellerman as a conspirator. Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen. Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say? Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman? Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots. Representative FORD. Is that why you have described-- Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry. Representative FORD. The noise as a flurry? Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. Arlen Specter then gets Kellerman to admit that he didn’t actually remember hearing more than three shots. On to the windshield: Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the outside of the windshield? Mr. KELLERMAN. I did on that day; yes, sir. (“That day” refers to Nov. 27, in the White House garage, the first time Kellerman noted the damage.) Mr. SPECTER. What did you feel, if anything? Mr. KELLERMAN. Not a thing; it was real smooth. Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the inside of the windshield? Mr. KELLERMAN. I did. Mr. SPECTER. How did that feel to you? Mr. KELLERMAN. My comparison was that the broken glass, broken windshield, there was enough little roughness in there from the cracks and split that I was positive, or it was my belief, that whatever hit it came into the inside of the car. Several witnesses saw a through hole in the windshield. This is discussed in detail by Weldon in "Murder in Dealey Plaza." The windshield with no hole that Kellerman saw in the White House garage and described to the WC was therefore not the original windshield, but a replacement windshield that had been damaged by hitting it with something on the inside, making no hole and leaving the outside smooth. After the windshield is admitted into evidence: Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman. I would like for you at this time to actually touch the outside (of the windshield) and tell me, first of all, if it is the same or if it differs in any way from the sense of feel which you noted when you touched it on or about November 27? Mr. KELLERMAN. As I touch the outside on the impact, it would be the same as I noticed on the 27th of November. Mr. SPECTER. What do you notice, if anything? Mr. KELLERMAN. It is a smooth surface without any-- Mr. SPECTER. Without any--finish your answer. Mr. KELLERMAN. On the inside. Mr. SPECTER. No; before. It is a smooth surface without any what? Mr. KELLERMAN. Without any crack lines. Mr. SPECTER. On the outside? Mr. KELLERMAN. That can be felt. Mr. SPECTER. On the outside? Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; on the outside of the windshield. But now Specter makes a mistake similar to the one the prosecution made in the O.J. trial by having O.J. try on the glove (it didn’t fit!): Mr. SPECTER. Feel the inside and tell us, first of all, whether it is the same or different from the way you touched it on November 27? Mr. KELLERMAN. On November 27, when I felt the inside of this impact area, I was convinced that I could - that I felt an opening in one of these lines, which was indicative to me that the blow was struck from the inside of the car on this windshield. Mr. SPECTER. Does it feel the same to you today as it did on or about November 27? Mr. KELLERMAN. As a matter of fact, it feels rather smooth today. Mr. SPECTER. It feels somewhat differently today than it felt before? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; it does. Kellerman had to know at that moment that the windshield had been switched. And this was the second switch (at least) that had been made. (Having gotten rid of the hole with the first switch, why was a second switch made, to have both sides of the windshield smooth? I don’t have a clue.) Ron http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2731 Thanks......B......... Edited June 13, 2007 by Bernice Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Credit Bernice:This is the first time i have actually seen a Secret Service report which mentions a " HOLE " in the windshield. The two blankets on the left and right rear doors were removed, inspected, and returned to the vehicle. The trunk of the vehicle was opened and the contents examined, and nothing was removed. A meticulous examination was made of the back seat to the car and the floor rug, and no evidence was found.In addition, of particular note was the small hole just to the left of center in the windshield from which what appeared to be bullet fragments were removed The team of agents also noted that the chrome molding strip above the windshield, inside the car, just right of center, was dented. The FBI Agents stated that this dent was made by the bullet fragment which was found imbedded in the front cushion. Good point, Robin. The characterization or description of the hole ("small hole" "from which what appeared to be bullet fragments were removed") doesn't seem to suggest a through & through bullet puncture. "Small" would suggest a hole smaller than a bullet hole. Otherwise why not just call it an "apparent bullet hole?" >>>>>>>>>> Hi Miles: I have to say and ..I will admit I found what you said hits me as being very funny..thanks......according to the .."Dictionary.....a.Hole.....1. an opening through something; gap; aperture: a hole in the roof; a hole in my sock. "" A hole is a hole through ,which means a hole is a hole..... I do not believe the SS were that backwards not to know, what a hole was, do you really ?? ""Otherwise why not just call it an "apparent bullet hole?"" Simple, they did not use your wording....they used their own..you were not there to advise them.. Have you seen the thickness of a standard pencil of late, I am sure none of the witnesses who mentioned such in reference to the diameter of the hole, was thinking of such as a carpenters thick pencil.....any shot through the windshield would have created fragments on the opposite side......Bullets make small entry wounds, unless you have an elephant gun..... Here again is the SS Agents Charles Taylor & Harry Geiglein report.. Record Number 180-10099-10390 Agency File Number 002528 Originator-WC From: Taylor, Charles E. To: Date: 11/27/63 Pages: 4 Subjects: Kennedy, John, Autopsy Evidence, Medical Wound Ballistics USSS Date of release: 12/16/93 Contents: Secret Service Report dated 11/27/63 by Agents Charles E. Taylor, Jr. and Harry W. Geiglein on investigation of clues found in the Presidential limousine. Document follows in full. ORIGIN: White House Detail OFFICE: Washington, D.C. FILE NO.: CO-2-34,030 TYPE OF CASE: Protective Research STATUS: Closed INVESTIGATION MADE AT: Washington, D.C. PERIOD COVERED: November 22-23, 1963 INVESTIGATION MADE BY: SAIC Harry W. Geiglein SA Charles E. Taylor, Jr. TITLE OR CAPTION: Assassination of President John F. Kennedy SYNOPSIS This report relates to the measures employed to effect security of the President's car, 100-X, and the follow-up car, 679-X, on return from Dallas, Texas, following the assassination of President Kennedy. DETAILS OF INVESTIGATION This investigation was initiated on November 22, 1963, following receipt of instructions from ASAIC Floyd M. Boring, White House Detail, that steps be taken to effect security of the President's car (100-X) and the follow-up car (679-X) on their return from Dallas, Texas. President John F. Kennedy occupied the rear seat of SS-100-X when he was assassinated, and SS-679-X was directly behind the Presidential limousine at the time of the assassination. There two vehicles were driven to Love Field, Dallas, Texas, for immediate transportation to Andrews Air Force Base, Washington, D.C. Following the arrival of President Lyndon B. Johnson and the remains of President Kennedy at Andrews Air Force Base, the reporting Special Agents conferred with Captain Milton B. Hartenblower, Duty Operations Officer, and Lt. Colonel Robert Best, Provost Marshal, Andrews Air Force Base, to arrange for landing instruction of the Air Force cargo plane transporting the subject vehicles and to escort these vehicles from Andrews Air Force Base. Also, arrangements were made with the U.S. Park Police for motorcycle escort of these automobiles to the White House Garage. DISTRIBUTION: Chief Washington COPIES: Orig. & 2 cc 2 cc REPORT MADE BY: /s/ Charles E. Taylor, Jr. DATE: 11/27/63 Charles E. Taylor, Jr. APPROVED: /s/ Harry W. Geiglein DATE: 11/27/63 Harry W. Geiglein SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: Harry W. Geiglein CO-2-34,030 Page 2 At 8:00 P.M. on November 22, 1963, SS-100-X and SS-679-X arrived at Andrews Air Force Base on Air Force Cargo Plane No. 612373 (C-130-E), which plane was assigned to the 78th Air Transport Squadron from Charleston Air Force Base and piloted by Captain Thomason. The plane was taxied to a point just off of Runway 1028, approximately 100 yards from the Control Tower at Andrews AFB, and a security cordon was placed around the aircraft while these vehicles were being unloaded. On the plane accompanying these vehicles were Special Agents Kinney and Hickey. The Presidential vehicles were driven under escort to the White House Garage at 22nd and M Streets, N.W., Washington, D.C., arriving at approximately 9:00 P.M. SS-100-X was driven by SA Kinney, accompanied by SA Taylor, and SS-679-x was driven by SA Hickey, accompanied by Special Agents Keiser and Brett. On arrival, SS-100-X was backed into the designated parking bin and SS-679-X was parked a few feet away. A plastic cover was placed over SS-100-X and it was secured. The follow-up car, SS-679-X, was locked and secured. Special Agents Keiser, Brett, and the reporting Special Agent effected security, assisted by White House Policemen Snyder and Rubenstal. At 10:10 P.M., Deputy Chief Paterni, ASAIC Boring, and representatives from Dr. Burkley's office at the White House, William Martinell and Thomas Mills, inspected SS-100-X. At 12:01 A.M., November 23, 1963, the security detail was relieved by Special Agents Paraschos and Kennedy and White House Policeman J. W. Edwards. At 1:00 A.M., as per arrangements by Deputy Chief Paterni, a team of FBI Agents examined the Presidential limousine. This team was comprised of Orrin H. Bartlett, Charles L. Killian, Cortlandt Cunningham, Robert A. Frazier, and Walter E. Thomas . Mr. Orin Bartlett drove the Presidential vehicle out of the bin. The team of FBI Agents, assisted by the Secret Service Agents on duty, removed the leatherette convertible top and the plexi-glass bubbletop; also the molding strips that secure the floor matting, and the rear seat. What appeared to be bullet fragments were removed from the windshield and the floor rug in the rear of the car. CO-2-34,030 Page 3 The two blankets on the left and right rear doors were removed, inspected, and returned to the vehicle. The trunk of the vehicle was opened and the contents examined, and nothing was removed. A meticulous examination was made of the back seat to the car and the floor rug, and no evidence was found. In addition, of particular note was the small hole just to the left of center in the windshield from which what appeared to be bullet fragments were removed. The team of agents also noted that the chrome molding strip above the windshield, inside the car, just right of center, was dented. The FBI Agents stated that this dent was made by the bullet fragment which was found imbedded in the front cushion. During the course of this examination, a number of color photos were taken by this FBI <"FBI" inserted in longhand with an arrow> search team. They concluded their examination at 4:30 A.M. and the President's car was reassembled and put back in the storage bin. At 8:00 A.M. on November 23, the security detail was relieved by Special Agents Hancock and Davis and White House Policeman J. C. Rowe. SA Gonzalez relieved SA Hancock at Noon and at 4:00 P.M., Messrs, Fox and Norton, Protective Research Section, photographed the Presidential limousine. At 4:30 P.M., SA Gonzalez contacted SAIC Bouck and Deputy Chief Paterni and, at their request, the flowers, torn pieces of paper, and other miscellaneous debris were removed from the floor of the car (SS-100-X) and taken to the Washington Field Office. At that time, the special detail securing the Presidential limousine and the follow-up car was discontinued. DISPOSITION This case is closed with the submission of this report. CET:mkd ************ Here also is a post by Ron Ecker Dec.04 on Kellerman's information....to the WC.. It is apparent from the WC testimony of SS agent Roy Kellerman that the damaged windshield was switched, not once but at least twice, between the shooting and the time that a windshield was brought into the WC hearing for Kellerman to examine. It should be noted, to begin with, that Kellerman believed there was a conspiracy, as is evident from his testimony that there had to be more than three shots. (And Senator Cooper obviously couldn’t believe what he heard.) I think that this would eliminate Kellerman as a conspirator. Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen. Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say? Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman? Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots. Representative FORD. Is that why you have described-- Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry. Representative FORD. The noise as a flurry? Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. Arlen Specter then gets Kellerman to admit that he didn’t actually remember hearing more than three shots. On to the windshield: Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the outside of the windshield? Mr. KELLERMAN. I did on that day; yes, sir. (“That day” refers to Nov. 27, in the White House garage, the first time Kellerman noted the damage.) Mr. SPECTER. What did you feel, if anything? Mr. KELLERMAN. Not a thing; it was real smooth. Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the inside of the windshield? Mr. KELLERMAN. I did. Mr. SPECTER. How did that feel to you? Mr. KELLERMAN. My comparison was that the broken glass, broken windshield, there was enough little roughness in there from the cracks and split that I was positive, or it was my belief, that whatever hit it came into the inside of the car. Several witnesses saw a through hole in the windshield. This is discussed in detail by Weldon in "Murder in Dealey Plaza." The windshield with no hole that Kellerman saw in the White House garage and described to the WC was therefore not the original windshield, but a replacement windshield that had been damaged by hitting it with something on the inside, making no hole and leaving the outside smooth. After the windshield is admitted into evidence: Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman. I would like for you at this time to actually touch the outside (of the windshield) and tell me, first of all, if it is the same or if it differs in any way from the sense of feel which you noted when you touched it on or about November 27? Mr. KELLERMAN. As I touch the outside on the impact, it would be the same as I noticed on the 27th of November. Mr. SPECTER. What do you notice, if anything? Mr. KELLERMAN. It is a smooth surface without any-- Mr. SPECTER. Without any--finish your answer. Mr. KELLERMAN. On the inside. Mr. SPECTER. No; before. It is a smooth surface without any what? Mr. KELLERMAN. Without any crack lines. Mr. SPECTER. On the outside? Mr. KELLERMAN. That can be felt. Mr. SPECTER. On the outside? Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; on the outside of the windshield. But now Specter makes a mistake similar to the one the prosecution made in the O.J. trial by having O.J. try on the glove (it didn’t fit!): Mr. SPECTER. Feel the inside and tell us, first of all, whether it is the same or different from the way you touched it on November 27? Mr. KELLERMAN. On November 27, when I felt the inside of this impact area, I was convinced that I could - that I felt an opening in one of these lines, which was indicative to me that the blow was struck from the inside of the car on this windshield. Mr. SPECTER. Does it feel the same to you today as it did on or about November 27? Mr. KELLERMAN. As a matter of fact, it feels rather smooth today. Mr. SPECTER. It feels somewhat differently today than it felt before? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; it does. Kellerman had to know at that moment that the windshield had been switched. And this was the second switch (at least) that had been made. (Having gotten rid of the hole with the first switch, why was a second switch made, to have both sides of the windshield smooth? I don’t have a clue.) Ron http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2731 Thanks......B......... I do not believe the SS were that backwards not to know, what a hole was, do you really ?? -- Bernice Remember the SS were flashing SS ID in Dealey Plaza immediately after Z-313 when, of course, there were zero SS in Dealey Plaza. Conclusion? The SS didn't know their holes from holes in the ground! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Remember the SS were flashing SS ID in Dealey Plaza immediately after Z-313 when, of course, there were zero SS in Dealey Plaza.Conclusion? The SS didn't know their holes from holes in the ground! .... or there were individuals in DP just pretending to be SS agents that had nothing to do with the real SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Remember the SS were flashing SS ID in Dealey Plaza immediately after Z-313 when, of course, there were zero SS in Dealey Plaza.Conclusion? The SS didn't know their holes from holes in the ground! .... or there were individuals in DP just pretending to be SS agents that had nothing to do with the real SS. Right. The SS didn't know that they were not there. But somebody else knew. See Craig: I ran to the front of the Texas School Book Depository where I asked for anyone involved in the investigation. There was a man standing on the steps of the Book Depository Building and he turned to me and said, "I'm with the Secret Service." This man was about 40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit. I was naive enough at the time to believe that the only people there were actually officers -- after all, this was the command post. I gave him the information. He showed little interest in the persons leaving. However, he seemed extremely interested in the description of the Rambler. This was the only part of my statement which he wrote down in his little pad he was holding. Point: Mrs. Ruth Paine, the woman Marina Oswald lived with in Irving, Texas, owned a Rambler station wagon, at that time, of this same color. I learned nothing of this "Secret Service Agent's" identity until December 22, 1967 while we were living in New Orleans. The television was on as I came home from work one night and there on the screen was a picture of this man. I did not know what it was all about until my wife told me that Jim Garrison had charged him with being a part of the assassination plot. I called Jim Garrison then and told him that this was the man I had seen in Dallas on November 22, 1963. Jim then sent one of his investigators to see me with a better picture which I identified. I then learned that this man's name was Edgar Eugene Bradley. It was a relief to me to know his name for I had been bothered by the fact that I had failed to get his name when he had told me he was a Secret Service Agent and I had given him my information. On the night of the assassination when I had come home and discussed the day with my wife I had, of course, told her of this encounter and my failure to get his name. I said that I got a good look at the driver of the Rambler. The Warren Commission: I did not get a good look at the Rambler. (In Captain Fritz's office) I had said that Fritz had said to Oswald, "This man saw you leave" (indicating me). Oswald said, "I told you people I did." Fritz then said, "Now take it easy, son, we're just trying to find out what happened", and then (to Oswald), "What about the car?" to which Oswald replied, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to drag her into this." Fritz said car -- station wagon was not mentioned by anyone but Oswald. (I had told Fritz over the telephone that I saw a man get into a station wagon, before I went to the Dallas Police Department and I had also described the man. This is when Fritz asked me to come there.) Oswald then said, "Everybody will know who I am now;" the Warren Commission: Stated that the last statement by Oswald was made in a dramatic tone. This was not so. The Warren Commission also printed, "NOW everybody will know who I am", transposing the now. Oswald's tone and attitude was one of disappointment. If someone were attempting to conceal his identity as Deputy and he was found out, exposed -- his cover blown, his reaction would be dismay and disappointment. This was Oswald's tone and attitude -- disappointment at being exposed! IOW, Oswald assumed that the station wagon Fritz mentioned to him before Craig arrived was Ruth's. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Hi Miles: We are very aware there were some within Dealey that called themselves SS, and presented ID, By why try to confuse, them with the SS White House detail report of Nov 27/63...report.. With what was related after the Assn in Dealey Plaza...on Nov.23/63...to what may have been,IF they were SS men that is, they were not the White House Detail officers of the SS....in charge of the 100X... The SS that were continued on to Parkland, and then took custody of it immediately, drove it back to Love, where it was flown back, and driven to the WH garage.... Nothing to do with Craig nor the "supposed" SS men of Dealey.. B.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Hi Miles:We are very aware there were some within Dealey that called themselves SS, and presented ID, By why try to confuse, them with the SS White House detail report of Nov 27/63...report.. With what was related after the Assn in Dealey Plaza...on Nov.23/63...to what may have been,IF they were SS men that is, they were not the White House Detail officers of the SS....in charge of the 100X... The SS that were continued on to Parkland, and then took custody of it immediately, drove it back to Love, where it was flown back, and driven to the WH garage.... Nothing to do with Craig nor the "supposed" SS men of Dealey.. B.... You're right, B. Do you think that the crack & small hole could have been caused by a ricochet? I believe John had some idea of that? M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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