Did Robert Kennedy's Love/Sex Affair with Jackie cause him to be SILENT on JFK assassination?

[Michael Hogan]

(To Robert Morrow)

Produce the PROOF of this illicit love affair! PRODUCE THE PROOF! instead of parroting what you have read elsewhere. The entire idea that they, including Joseph Kennedy, Sr., JFK & RFK, were all ultimately "black-mailable" due to their alleged sexual exploits is a claim beyond the pale; it's an unsupported assertion, and is absurd!

Here is another take on Heyman and his book.

http://www.ctka.net/reviews/heymann.html

Thanks for referencing that, Bill. Lisa Pease's methodology for fact-checking an author's footnotes should be fundamental. Too often, it's not.

For someone that brags about skimming books and interprets so many unsupported assertions as facts, her advice is unlikely to be heeded.

[Guest Robert Morrow]

(To Robert Morrow)

Produce the PROOF of this illicit love affair! PRODUCE THE PROOF! instead of parroting what you have read elsewhere. The entire idea that they, including Joseph Kennedy, Sr., JFK & RFK, were all ultimately "black-mailable" due to their alleged sexual exploits is a claim beyond the pale; it's an unsupported assertion, and is absurd!

Here is another take on Heyman and his book.

http://www.ctka.net/reviews/heymann.html

Thanks for referencing that, Bill. Lisa Pease's methodology for fact-checking an author's footnotes should be fundamental. Too often, it's not.

For someone that brags about skimming books and interprets so many unsupported assertions as facts, her advice is unlikely to be heeded.

For the "Kennedy groupies" it literally does not matter how many MOUNTAINS of documented and sourced evidence there is on 1) JFK's sex addiction or 2) Robert Kennedy's and Jackie Kennedy's affair. And both of these things are facts and extremely well supported.

Because these people have lost their ability to think objectively about the Kennedys; they approach history as if they were school girls cheering for the Beatles in the 1960's.

[David Andrews]

If everybody was so absolutely blackmailable - then why were bullets ultimately necessarily?

Why?

Why?

WHY?

[David G. Healy]

(To Robert Morrow)

Produce the PROOF of this illicit love affair! PRODUCE THE PROOF! instead of parroting what you have read elsewhere. The entire idea that they, including Joseph Kennedy, Sr., JFK & RFK, were all ultimately "black-mailable" due to their alleged sexual exploits is a claim beyond the pale; it's an unsupported assertion, and is absurd!

Here is another take on Heyman and his book.

http://www.ctka.net/reviews/heymann.html

Thanks for referencing that, Bill. Lisa Pease's methodology for fact-checking an author's footnotes should be fundamental. Too often, it's not.

For someone that brags about skimming books and interprets so many unsupported assertions as facts, her advice is unlikely to be heeded.

For the "Kennedy groupies" it literally does not matter how many MOUNTAINS of documented and sourced evidence there is on 1) JFK's sex addiction or 2) Robert Kennedy's and Jackie Kennedy's affair. And both of these things are facts and extremely well supported.

Because these people have lost their ability to think objectively about the Kennedys; they approach history as if they were school girls cheering for the Beatles in the 1960's.

Now calm yourself, son.... most here aren't "Kennedy groupies", those that are, LURK. Having said that, there does seem a predisposition of others here to fall into that LBJ did it trap-camp... and when THEY (as you're feeling at the moment) get knocked downcause you can't provide evidence and/or case testimony, they simply seem to revert to unsupported, simpleminded, non-sensical rumor and innuendo concerning JFK's sexual life, as if its any business of there's (unless your a voayer of course)...

Your going to have to do better than this, youngster.... ya know, when cdddraftsman on alt.conspiracy.jfk finally knocked off his obsession with JFK's sex life (after 5 years of nonstop postings) he came to find out, he didn't have a damn thing to say -- the xxxxx went from 600 posts a month to 10-20 and none of those are responded to...

[Ron Ecker]

If everybody was so absolutely blackmailable - then why were bullets ultimately necessarily?

Blackmail couldn't be blamed on Castro. Neither could poison or a small plane crash or (to quote Nixon) "so forth and so on." Shooting from a distance with high-powered rifles, now that sounds like Castro (or the Russians or so forth and so on).

Blackmail also doesn't send any message to others, other than don't play around or take bribes.

[Greg Burnham]

If everybody was so absolutely blackmailable - then why were bullets ultimately necessarily?

Why?

Why?

WHY?

Bingo!

[Dean Hagerman]

If everybody was so absolutely blackmailable - then why were bullets ultimately necessarily?

Why?

Why?

WHY?

Bingo!

Bingo is right

Cant wait to watch Robert fumble around with this one

[Karl Kinaski]

Morrow: "I have always wondered WHY both Robert and Jackie Kennedy remained so publicly SILENT about their true thinking that an elite domestic political conspiracy murdered John Kennedy."

Kinaski: " Reason of state?"

[Jim Root]

This quote interests me and perhaps I can put a little different spin on what has usually been suggested:

"[David Heymann, Bobby and Jackie: a Love Story, pp. 117-118]:

'Over lunch that afternoon, Smathers asked Bobby why he’d aborted his personal investigation into his brother’s assassination.

'Because every time I pump the FBI or CIA for information,' RFK responded, 'I end up with a death threat in the mail. So does Teddy. I don’t care about my own life, but I do care about my brother’s. My using the CIA in conjunction with the Mafia to go after Castro may have led to Jack’s death. One in the family is enough.”

As the Cuban Missle Crisis was developing John J. McCloy was called in to negotiate with the Russians. McCloy was very proud of the part he played in these negotiations and they are well documented. One of the points were that the US was not to go after Castro......Bobby defied this part of the agreement.....and as I have pointed out reviously, one does not defy John J. McCloy without consequences.

Jim Root

[Guest Robert Morrow]

This quote interests me and perhaps I can put a little different spin on what has usually been suggested:

"[David Heymann, Bobby and Jackie: a Love Story, pp. 117-118]:

'Over lunch that afternoon, Smathers asked Bobby why hed aborted his personal investigation into his brothers assassination.

'Because every time I pump the FBI or CIA for information,' RFK responded, 'I end up with a death threat in the mail. So does Teddy. I dont care about my own life, but I do care about my brothers. My using the CIA in conjunction with the Mafia to go after Castro may have led to Jacks death. One in the family is enough.

As the Cuban Missle Crisis was developing John J. McCloy was called in to negotiate with the Russians. McCloy was very proud of the part he played in these negotiations and they are well documented. One of the points were that the US was not to go after Castro......Bobby defied this part of the agreement.....and as I have pointed out reviously, one does not defy John J. McCloy without consequences.

Jim Root

John J. McCloy wanted to attack the Cubans from the beginning. John Kennedy did not. This could have caused WWIII. The mafia involvement with CIA plots on Castro were BEFORE October, 1962. Supposedly Robert Kennedy put a stop to them.

John J. McCloy was also very close to Clint Murchison, Sr who was pretty much the LEADER of the Texas backers of Lyndon Johnson. Murchison hated the Kennedys and was stunned when LBJ joined Kennedy on the ticket in 1960. Ominously, McCloy went dove hunting in summer 1963 with Clint Murchison, Sr. on his ranch in Mexico.

I do not currently think John J. McCloy was involved in the planning of the JFK assassination, but he certainly was deeply involved in the cover up of it.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Robert Morrow

[Jim Root]

Robert

Can you give a site for this statement?

"John J. McCloy wanted to attack the Cubans from the beginning."

Jim Root

[Ron Ecker]

Jim,

I don't think you mentioned the footnote in Heymann's book in which he quotes Robert Kennedy as thinking about having an airliner full of passengers blown up in a false flag operation. As I recall, Heymann's apparent source for this was a Kennedy aide (I think it was O'Donnell) to whom RFK expressed the idea and who was (surprise!) dead when the book was published. The aide more or less told RFK that he thought blowing up an airliner was a bad idea.

[Guest Robert Morrow]

Let's get back to the nutshell of this thread: Did Robert Kennedy's Love/Sex Affair with Jackie cause him to be SILENT on JFK assassination and pull back from investigating it.

http://www.amazon.com/Bobby-Jackie-C-David-Heymann/dp/141655629X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1296281237&sr=1-1

I think that death threats from CIA/FBI or LBJ - in the form of anonymous letters - were probably the #1 reason Robert Kennedy pulled back from openly investigating his brother's murder. That makes sense; RFK figured out he was up against something to strong to be openly confronted. But in my opinion, he should have confronted it, because they were going to kill him anyway if he ran for president.

Secondly, I do think RFK's affair with Jackie was certainly an inhibiting factor in his silence; RFK simply did not want to draw undue attention to what he, a married man with 10 kids, and his brother's widow were doing: having a torrid affair from 1964 -1968.

Even if David Heymann has a history of being sloppy with footnotes or fabricating quotes in previous books, or even if he is a Mossad or CIA agent ... Heymann STILL makes a compelling case of an affair between Robert Kennedy and Jackie. Unlike some folks who can't handle the reality, I have actually READ this excellent book. And there is page after page after page of evidence, anecdotes, and details of varying sorts from CLOSE Kennedy friends like Truman Capote, Chuck Spalding, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Jr., Morton Downy, Ken O'Donnell, Dave Powers, Jack Newfield, Kenneth McKnight, Gore Vidal, Douglas Dillon, Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., Pierre Salinger,... of Bobbie and Jackie holding hands, massaging and kissing necks on the beach, fondling boobs, Jackie sitting in his lap with her arms around his neck at the office, RFK spending all this time with her and away from his huge family, RFK buying Jackie a $12,000 jade Buddha (like a guy does for his girl; invoice to Kennedy Foundation!), having a quickie under deck of the yacht Sequoia (Arthur Schlesinger), being found kissing in the horse stables (Douglass Dillon), Jackie having no pictures of JFK in her apartment yet one BIG portrait of RFK, etc. They were hanging all over each other, behaving like lovestruck teenagers. It was blatant among friends and family.

Folks, RFK and Jackie were obviously having an affair ... and it is important because it inhibited them both from pursuing the truth in the JFK assassination.

After reviewing this book again, I am upping my percent from 99% to 99.9% that RFK and Jackie were having a love/sex affair.

Even if Heymann is making up half the book, sloppy with footnotes on 25%, ... whatever, Heymann has proven to me that RFK and Jackie were having a love affair. Just too much evidence of it.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/item_vUuGxPY7ZwSCuJiY9bsW1O;jsessionid=B4779B000A90B9ADDACF878AFBAF3F2A

JACKIE'S DOOMED LOVE - WITH RFK

By JEANE MacINTOSH

Last Updated: 9:02 AM, July 6, 2009

Posted: 1:55 AM, July 6, 2009

Jackie Kennedy had a four-year love affair with Bobby Kennedy that began not long after JFK's assassination and grew so intense that when RFK was gunned down, it was she -- not his wife -- who instructed doctors to pull the plug, an explosive new book claims.

The married senator and father of 11 kids was the former first lady's one "true love" -- and his wife, Ethel, along with the rest of the Kennedy clan, knew about their romance, according to "Bobby and Jackie: A Love Story."

"Everybody knew about the affair. The two of them carried on like a pair of lovesick teenagers," the late Franklin Roosevelt Jr., who served as JFK's undersecretary of commerce, says in the book.

"I suspect Bobby would've liked to dump Ethel and marry Jackie, but, of course, that wasn't possible."

The book, which hits shelves this month, also includes recollections of the steamy affair from a host of other Kennedy family intimates, including Pierre Salinger, Arthur Schlesinger, Jack Newfield, Gore Vidal, Truman Capote and Morton Downey Jr.

Author C. David Heymann said he spent nearly two decades researching the tome, even digging through old FBI and Secret Service files about the clandestine couple. Tapes of his exhaustive interviews are available at the SUNY Stony Brook library.

The book's most shocking claims include:

* Six months after JFK's death, during a May 1964 dinner cruise on the presidential yacht the USS Sequoia, Bobby and Jackie "exchanged poignant glances" before disappearing below deck, leaving Ethel upstairs. "When they returned, they looked as chummy and relaxed as a pair of Cheshire cats," according to Schlesinger

* At the Kennedys' Palm Beach estate during Christmas 1964, socialite Mary Harrington saw Jackie sunbathing topless, with Bobby kneeling at her side.

"As they began to kiss, he placed one hand on her breast and the other inside of her bikini bottom," Harrington recalled.

"I was shocked. It was clear that Bobby was sleeping with his sister-in-law."

RFK later told Harrington -- who had her own affair with RFK -- he loved Ethel but "felt just as strongly about Jackie."

* When Commerce Department administrator Kenneth McKnight arrived for a late-evening meeting with Sen. Kennedy in July 1966, he found Bobby sitting on a sofa -- with Jackie "straddling his lap, her arms around his neck."

* At one point, Ethel Kennedy implored family friend Frank Moore to "tell Bobby to stop sleeping with Jackie." Instead, Moore told her to find a marriage counselor.

* Shipping tycoon Aristotle Onassis -- RFK's rival for Jackie's attention -- once threatened to "bring down" Bobby by going public with details of the affair. "I could bury that sucker," Onassis said, "although I'd lose Jackie in the process."

By all accounts, the romance between Jackie and Bobby sprang from their shared grief over the Nov. 22, 1963, assassination of John F. Kennedy.

"It was the coming together of a man and a woman as a result of his bereavement and her mental suffering at the hands of her late, lecherous husband," according to Jackie confidant Truman Capote.

"It was passionate, [but] it was doomed."

According to Gore Vidal, "The one person Jackie ever loved . . . was Robert Kennedy."

"You had to be deaf, dumb and blind not to see it," recalled Kennedy family friend Chuck Spalding, who often traveled with the pair.

Ethel -- who stayed home with the kids in Virginia -- knew about their relationship, but "evidently chose to ignore it," Heymann writes. She was confident RFK would never leave her or their family.

Still, whenever Jackie visited Bobby in Hyannis Port, "Ethel would jump up and leave the room."

By mid-1967, Jackie -- who had also been dating Onassis -- was contemplating marriage to him. She agreed to wait until after Bobby's 1968 presidential run.

RFK told Pierre Salinger, "She'll marry that man over my dead body."

On March 16, 1968, Bobby announced his bid for president. The next morning, a "morose" RFK called Jack Newfield from Jackie's apartment.

"If I had to hazard a guess," the late Post columnist recalled, "I'd say this must have been their last romantic occasion together."

On June 4, minutes after winning the California primary, Bobby was fatally shot by Sirhan Sirhan at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles.

Jackie flew to his bedside -- and Ethel allowed her time alone with the dying RFK, according to the book.

Bobby was brain-dead, but a distraught Ethel refused to pull the plug, and brother Ted Kennedy was in no shape to make the call, Heymann writes.

At 1:20 a.m. June 6, 1968, Jackie Kennedy ordered the respirator shut down and signed the consent form, the book reveals.

That October, she married Onassis.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Robert Morrow

[William Kelly]

David Heymann is a xxxx and fabricator who actually puts words in the mouths of people he never interviewed after they are dead and cannot deny it.

Lisa proved this, but if you need more proof, read below from my article on Regicide:

"When I criticized the sourcing of Talbot's book on the Meyer episode, Simkin commented that in two cases I was discounting the sources on insubstantial grounds. The two sources were David Heymann and James Angleton. In this day and age, I would have thought that discrediting these two men would be kind of redundant. In my review, I compared the sleazy Heymann to Kitty Kelley -- which on second thought is being unfair to Kelley. To go through his two books on the Kennedys -- A Woman Called Jackie, and RFK: A Candid Biography -- and point out all the errors of fact and attribution, the questionable interview subjects, the haphazard sourcing, the unrelenting appetite for sleaze that emits from almost every page, and the important things he leaves out -- to do all that would literally take a hundred pages. But since Simkin and Janney like him, and since Talbot sourced him, I will point out several things as a sampling of why he cannot be used or trusted.

In the first book, Heymann writes that JFK's messy autopsy was orchestrated by Robert Kennedy and some other members of the family. (p. 410) This has been proven wrong by too many sources to be listed here. When describing the assassination of JFK, Heymann lists three shots: two into JFK and one into Connally. Although he is kind of hazy on the issue, he leans toward the Krazy Kid Oswald scenario. He can keep to that myth since he does not tell the reader about the hit to James Tague. (p. 399) Which would mean four shots and a conspiracy. Incredibly, Heymann tries to say that when Jackie was leaning out the back of the car she really was not trying to recover parts of Kennedy's blown out skull. What she was actually doing was trying to escape the fusillade! (p. 400) One might ask then: How did she end up with the tissue and skin, which she turned over to the doctors at Parkland? Predictably, Heymann leaves that out of his hatchet job.

The book on RFK is more of the same. Heymann discovered something about RFK that no one else did. Between his time on Joe McCarthy's committee and the McClellan Committee RFK moonlighted with the Bureau of Narcotics and Drugs. What did he do there? Well on their raids, he would switch from mild-mannered Dr. Jekyll to wild man Mr. Hyde. He seized bags of cocaine and distributed it among his buddies. If the drug suspects were female he would make them serve him sexually before busting them. He would watch idly as some of his cohorts threw drug runners out of windows. (p. 100) Now that he knew about drugs, when Ethel's parents died in a plane crash, Bobby sent her to a Canadian facility in order to get LSD treatments to cure her grief. (pgs 104-105) Did you know that RFK was secretly a bisexual who both made out and shared a homosexual lover with Rudolf Nureyev? (p. 419) According to Heymann (p. 361), Jim Garrison called RFK up in 1964 to discuss his JFK assassination ideas but RFK hung up on him. (Since Garrison had stopped investigating the case by 1964, this call has to be mythological.) About RFK's assassination, those who try and explain the many oddities that abound over the crime scene are quickly dismissed as "looking for a complex explanation to what seems a simple story." (p. 501) Therefore, he puts terms like the Manchurian Candidate, and the girl in the polka dot dress in belittling quotes. (He actually prefaces the latter with the term "so-called", like she doesn't really exist in that form.) Unbelievably, Heymann mentions the name of pathologist Thomas Noguchi in regard to his case shattering work on RFK exactly once. (p. 508) And this is in a note at the bottom of the page. In other words with Heymann, Oswald shot JFK, and Sirhan killed RFK. And if they didn't, it doesn't really matter.

Some of the things Heymann's interview subjects tell him are just plain risible -- to everyone except him. Jeanne Carmen was exposed years ago by Marilyn Monroe biographer Donald Spoto (see p. 472) as very likely not even knowing her. Heymann acts as if this never happened. So he lets her now expand on the dubious things she said before. Apparently she forgot to tell Anthony Summers that she herself also had an affair with JFK, "And he wasn't even good in bed." (p. 313) Carmen also now miraculously recalls that Bobby, Marilyn and her, actually used to go nude bathing at Malibu. (p. 314) The whole myth about Bernard Spindel wiretapping Monroe's phone has also been exposed for years. But Heymann ignores that, and adds that it wasn't just Spindel and Hoffa but also the FBI and CIA who were wiretapping Marilyn's phone. The whole chapter on Monroe had me rocking in my chair with laughter. It concludes with Carmen saying that the cover up of Monroe's murder was so extensive that the perpetrators broke into her home too! (p. 324) One of the things Heymann relies on in this Saturday Night Live chapter is an interview he says Peter Lawford gave him. Which is kind of weird. For two reasons. Apparently Lawford told him things he never told anyone else. Second, Heymann says he interviewed Lawford in 1983, which is the year before the actor died. It actually had to be that year. Why? Because Heymann's book on Barbara Hutton came out in 1983. And there was no point in interviewing Lawford for that book. When it came out, Heymann got into trouble and was actually investigated for charges of fraud. The original publisher had to shred 58, 000 copies of the book. It got so bad Heymann fled the country to Israel and reportedly joined the Mossad. But, amid all this hurly burly he somehow was prescient enough to know that he should interview Lawford before he left since he knew he would eventually be writing about the Kennedys. And Lawford trusted this writer under suspicion with sensational disclosures he never duplicated for anyone else.

Or did he? One of the many problems with Heymann is his very loose footnoting. Very often he quotes generic sources like "FBI files", without naming the series number, the office of origination, or even the date on the document. So an interested reader cannot check them for accuracy. This is fortunate for Heymann, since, like with his interviews, he finds things in government files that apparently no one else has -- like Secret Service agents writing about the sexual details of JFK's affairs. In his book on Robert Kennedy, again, people say things that they have said nowhere else. He writes that in 1997 Gerald Ford admitted that, as president, he had suppressed FBI and CIA surveillance files which indicated President Kennedy was caught in a crossfire in Dealey Plaza and that John Roselli and Carlos Marcello had orchestrated it. (p. 361) In 1997 Ford was saying what he always said. That Oswald did it and there was no cover up. He did have to defend against evidence he had moved up the wound in Kennedy's back to his neck. But during that controversy he never came close to saying what Heymann attributes to him.

But it gets worse. Apparently either Heymann is clairvoyant, or like the boy in The Sixth Sense he is so attuned to the spirit world that he can speak with the dead. In his RFK book he of course wants to place Bobby amid the plots to kill Castro. And it would be more convincing if he actually got that information from RFK's friends and trusted associates. So he goes to people like JFK's lifelong pal Lem Billings and White House counselor Ken O'Donnell. Naturally, they both tell Heymann that RFK was hot to off Fidel. There is a big time sequence problem with both these interviews. Now if you look in his chapter notes, Heymann simply lists people he says he interviewed for a chapter -- with no dates for the interview. This is shrewd of him. The RFK book was published in 1998. Lem Billings died in 1981. So we are to believe that while working on a book about Barbara Hutton, Heymann just happened to run into Billings and asked him about RFK and Castro. Even though Bobby Kennedy is never even mentioned in the Hutton book! Further, in Jack and Lem, a full length biography of Billings published this year, there is not even a hint of this disclosure. The O'Donnell instance is even worse. He died in 1977. At that time Heymann was working on a book about the literary Lowell family. Why on earth would he interview O'Donnell for that? Did he know that 20 years later he would be writing a book about RFK? But Heymann has been accused of faking interviews as far back as 1976 for his book on Ezra Pound. (For more evidence of Heymann's penchant for fabrication, click here.)

This is the author who Janney has sat and talked with many times. Whom Simkin vouched for as a source for their Mary Meyer/JFK construction. All I can say is that if I ever met Heymann, the last thing I would do is sit and talk with him. I'd leave the room. The fact that Janney and Simkin appear to be ignorant about the appalling history of this dreadful and ludicrous hack says a good deal about their work. But if they did know, and endorsed him anyway, it says a lot more."

Anyone who practices this kind of journalism is contemptible. To actually use interviews he never did with people who are dead and cannot deny it, well what can you say?

But further, the evidence is pretty strong that Heymann was recruited by the Mossad to escape his legal problems. Everyone knows the Mossad is in tight with the CIA. Heymann wanted back into the country, so ipso facto, he did his deal with the Devil.

Interesting how Morrow misses all this stuff.

I forgot that Heymann was responsible for that Barbara Hutton "biography," but Hutton actually had a house - Spanis Mission style mansion on the bay in West Atlantic City, and there were many local stories about her.

But when the book came out, there was no mention of her Atlantic City property, that she ever lived there or any of the stories that I had heard from locals, but at the time I didn't think the whole book was fabricated.

It apparently was, and no, you can't beleive Heymann or use him as a credible source on anything. I don't know Simkin's position on Heymann is today, but I'm pretty sure that Janney will not use him as a reliable source, since he has

some very reliable sources and his own reputation to maintain, and think he will. I am looking forward to Peter's book on Mary Meyer.

And the with holding of RFK's records has nothing to do his relationship with Jackie, and everything to do with JFK's assassination.

BK

[Dean Hagerman]

his brother's widow were doing: having a torrid affair from 1964 -1968

You sound like a sleazy Romance Novelist

You just love writing these posts dont you Robert?

And are you ever going to answer my question? Do you like JFK?

Why do you keep ducking and dodging my question?

Are you scared to answer? I know that you hate JFK, you think he is a "Sex Freak" and deserved to be assassinated because you dont agree with his moral standards

Answer my question Robert, its a simple yes or no