Why Oswald is Innocent

[Duke Lane]

Duke, some good points as usual, it wont surprise you to learn I dont agree with most of them (I think you know my stand on Tippit) but excellent points to consider none the less.

Since you disagree with "most" of my "good points as usual," which one(s) and why?

• Hank Norman and Junior Jarman did not go upstairs until after the motorcade was announced as being on Main Street at or after 12:22 or 12:26; and/or
  
• Bonnie Ray Williams went to the fifth floor after Hank and Junior had already arrived there; and/or
  
• That means BRW was on the sixth floor until 12:25 to 12:28; and/or
  
• Jack Dougherty was standing "ten feet west of the west elevator" at the time of the shooting and thereafter; and/or
  
• Jack likely did hear the three men running across the fifth floor after the shooting; and/or
  
• Jack was standing directly in the path Oswald would have had to have taken if he'd come down from the sixth floor; and/or
  
• Jack didn't see Oswald pass within a couple of feet of him, ergo either
  • Jack was not where he claimed to be (and if so, where was he?); or
    
  • Oswald did not pass Jack; and/or
    

  [*]The freight elevator was a likely means of escape by whoever did do the shooting if Oswald didn't?

Clearly, you have reasons why you disagree ...?

[Greg Parker]

Duke, some good points as usual, it wont surprise you to learn I dont agree with most of them (I think you know my stand on Tippit) but excellent points to consider none the less.

Since you disagree with "most" of my "good points as usual," which one(s) and why?

• Hank Norman and Junior Jarman did not go upstairs until after the motorcade was announced as being on Main Street at or after 12:22 or 12:26; and/or
  
• Bonnie Ray Williams went to the fifth floor after Hank and Junior had already arrived there; and/or
  
• That means BRW was on the sixth floor until 12:25 to 12:28; and/or
  Clearly, you prefer Warren Commission testimony over original statements when any conflict between the two arises. It is the only way you put BRW on the 6th floor after breaking for lunch.
  Can you explain this preference, Duke?
  
• Jack Dougherty was standing "ten feet west of the west elevator" at the time of the shooting and thereafter; and/or
  
• Jack likely did hear the three men running across the fifth floor after the shooting; and/or
  
• Jack was standing directly in the path Oswald would have had to have taken if he'd come down from the sixth floor; and/or
  
• Jack didn't see Oswald pass within a couple of feet of him, ergo either
  • Jack was not where he claimed to be (and if so, where was he?); or
    
  • Oswald did not pass Jack; and/or
    

  [*]The freight elevator was a likely means of escape by whoever did do the shooting if Oswald didn't?

Clearly, you have reasons why you disagree ...?

[Denis Pointing]

Duke, some good points as usual, it wont surprise you to learn I dont agree with most of them (I think you know my stand on Tippit) but excellent points to consider none the less.

Since you disagree with "most" of my "good points as usual," which one(s) and why?

• Hank Norman and Junior Jarman did not go upstairs until after the motorcade was announced as being on Main Street at or after 12:22 or 12:26; and/or
  
• Bonnie Ray Williams went to the fifth floor after Hank and Junior had already arrived there; and/or
  
• That means BRW was on the sixth floor until 12:25 to 12:28; and/or
  
• Jack Dougherty was standing "ten feet west of the west elevator" at the time of the shooting and thereafter; and/or
  
• Jack likely did hear the three men running across the fifth floor after the shooting; and/or
  
• Jack was standing directly in the path Oswald would have had to have taken if he'd come down from the sixth floor; and/or
  
• Jack didn't see Oswald pass within a couple of feet of him, ergo either
  • Jack was not where he claimed to be (and if so, where was he?); or
    
  • Oswald did not pass Jack; and/or
    

  [*]The freight elevator was a likely means of escape by whoever did do the shooting if Oswald didn't?

Clearly, you have reasons why you disagree ...?

Duke, please go back and read the thread, you'll see that the post I was disagreeing with was #93, which is solely concerned with the Tippit murder. It has nothing what so ever to do with Hank Norman, Junior Jarman, Bonnie Ray Williams nor Jack Dougherty etc.

[Denis Pointing]

And, Denis, since you are 95% confident that Oswald shot Tippit at 10th and Patton, which direction was he walking. If he was walking towards Tippit, how did he get there? If he was walking in the same direciton as Tippit, why didn't all the people who were behind him - see him pass them a few seconds earlier?

Thanks,

Bill Kelly

Bill, I've never really been interested in all the hypothetical debates concerning Oswald's route to the murder scene, its always seemed a rather pointless exercise IMO, whats importaint is that its been shown, by independent researchers from both camps, that Oswald could indeed make the journey inside the time frame, I belive it was Gary Mack that showed if LHO followed a certain route (which bad memory stops me from quoting) he actually had 3/4 minutes to spare.

As for the actual shooting, I'm sure your more than aware there are at least 12 eyewitness which identified LHO. The ballistics are also very convincing, not so much the bullets, but certainly the shell casings found and handed over by the Davies sisters. These were positively proven to have been fired from Oswald's revolver to the exclusion of all other revolvers. That is to say the weapon that was found in Oswald's possession when arrested at the theater. And yes, I am aware of the claims that the revolver was planted on LHO but I dont see a scrap of evidence nor sensible argument to support that claim. Perhaps you have one ? Denis.

[William Kelly]

And, Denis, since you are 95% confident that Oswald shot Tippit at 10th and Patton, which direction was he walking. If he was walking towards Tippit, how did he get there? If he was walking in the same direciton as Tippit, why didn't all the people who were behind him - see him pass them a few seconds earlier?

Thanks,

Bill Kelly

Bill, I've never really been interested in all the hypothetical debates concerning Oswald's route to the murder scene, its always seemed a rather pointless exercise IMO, whats importaint is that its been shown, by independent researchers from both camps, that Oswald could indeed make the journey inside the time frame, I belive it was Gary Mack that showed if LHO followed a certain route (which bad memory stops me from quoting) he actually had 3/4 minutes to spare.

As for the actual shooting, I'm sure your more than aware there are at least 12 eyewitness which identified LHO. The ballistics are also very convincing, not so much the bullets, but certainly the shell casings found and handed over by the Davies sisters. These were positively proven to have been fired from Oswald's revolver to the exclusion of all other revolvers. That is to say the weapon that was found in Oswald's possession when arrested at the theater. And yes, I am aware of the claims that the revolver was planted on LHO but I dont see a scrap of evidence nor sensible argument to support that claim. Perhaps you have one ? Denis.

No, Denis, I don't have a logical explanation, though I would think that if Oswald walked passed those 12 people who later identified him as a cop killer would have said they saw him walk past them.

I don't really have any problem with Oswald killing Tippit, I just don't understand why the ballistics, which you are so positive of, didn't really match, and those witnesses who saw him, didn't see him walking past them earlier.

Thanks for getting back to me on this, as I thought you might have something more convincing.

And you certainly don't have anything to suggest that Oswald, even if he did kill Tippit, was the Sixth Floor Sniper?

Bill Kelly

Edited April 28, 2009 by William Kelly

[Peter McGuire]

Jim Marrs writes on page 52 in Crossfire, The Plot that Killed Kennedy:

" It strains one's imagination to believe that anyone could fire on the president of the United States, then run to the opposite corner of the sixth floor- - where the rifle was discovered a short time later--stash the weapon, race down five flights of stairs, and show no sign of exertion or anxiety when confronted by a policeman with drawn pistol."

Remember this same man totally freaked out in the theatre when he was caught there. I am sure it was because he was pissed off at that point knowing that he was double-crossed and hung out to dry.

The point is he showed his true emotions in the theatre, as he did in the Book Building, when he was unaware of his fate.

The man didn't kill Kennedy any more than MOST of the other employees in the building who were NOT framed.

[Don Jeffries]

And, Denis, since you are 95% confident that Oswald shot Tippit at 10th and Patton, which direction was he walking. If he was walking towards Tippit, how did he get there? If he was walking in the same direciton as Tippit, why didn't all the people who were behind him - see him pass them a few seconds earlier?

Thanks,

Bill Kelly

Bill, I've never really been interested in all the hypothetical debates concerning Oswald's route to the murder scene, its always seemed a rather pointless exercise IMO, whats importaint is that its been shown, by independent researchers from both camps, that Oswald could indeed make the journey inside the time frame, I belive it was Gary Mack that showed if LHO followed a certain route (which bad memory stops me from quoting) he actually had 3/4 minutes to spare.

As for the actual shooting, I'm sure your more than aware there are at least 12 eyewitness which identified LHO. The ballistics are also very convincing, not so much the bullets, but certainly the shell casings found and handed over by the Davies sisters. These were positively proven to have been fired from Oswald's revolver to the exclusion of all other revolvers. That is to say the weapon that was found in Oswald's possession when arrested at the theater. And yes, I am aware of the claims that the revolver was planted on LHO but I dont see a scrap of evidence nor sensible argument to support that claim. Perhaps you have one ? Denis.

Denis,

The reason why Oswald's route to the Tippit murder scene is important is because courageous citizen researchers like Harold Weisberg and Sylvia Meagher proved it was impossible for him to be there. I don't care about Gary Mack's ridiculous attempt to buttress a long discredited theory- every witness Oswald supposedly encountered along his fantastic post-assassination journey was completely uncredible, and every one of his alleged movements make no sense, regardless of what his role that day was. The fact remains that no one-not the Warren Commission, not Dale Myers and not Gary Mack-can offer a single shred of evidence to show what time Oswald left the TSBD after the shooting. They all just follow the official story that he left at 12:33. There is nothing to corroborate this- not even a laughable witness like Markham or Whaley. I asked Dale Myers about this on another forum years ago, and he responded by demanding I buy his book and then left the forum in a huff.

The best evidence for Oswald's whereabouts after the assassination are the handful of unconnected witness reports of him running from the TSBD and entering a Rambler. These witnesses all told the same basic story, and presumably would not have had the comedic quality of those Oswald allegedly encountered along the fairy tale-like flight postulated by the Warren Commission. Unfortunately, this promising lead was never investigated, much like nothing else about this crime was ever investigated, so what happened from that point until he was apprehended at the Texas Theater is unknown. What logic tells us, however, is that no one- neither fleeing lone nut assassin nor unwitting conspirator nor innocent patsy- walks a distance from the scene of the crime, then takes a bus back towards it, then hails a cab again away from it, and tells the hilarious driver to drop him off past his rooming house, so he can waste more time walking back to it. As Fidel Castro once said, "that does not happen even in your worst American movies."

So 12 witnesses identified Oswald as the killer of Tippit? Hmm. Are you including Warren Reynolds, who initially couldn't identify Oswald but changed his mind after he was shot and subsequently recovered? How about Domingo Benavides, who had a similar change of perspective when his brother Eddy was shot and killed? Are you aware of the circumstances of the lineups under which witnesses "identified" Oswald? William Whaley's testimony is entertaining in several respects, but his somewhat unwitting description of the way the lineups were conducted, and Oswald's loud and angry protests about that, provide a pretty clear picture of what was going on. I would hope that anyone concerned about civil liberties would dismiss any "identification" obtained under such circumstances as totally dubious.

As is the case with the assassination of JFK, none of the "evidence" against Oswald in the murder of Tippit would even have been able to be introduced in an honest court of law, on chain of possession issues alone. Oswald shot no one on November 22, 1963.

[Denis Pointing]

And, Denis, since you are 95% confident that Oswald shot Tippit at 10th and Patton, which direction was he walking. If he was walking towards Tippit, how did he get there? If he was walking in the same direciton as Tippit, why didn't all the people who were behind him - see him pass them a few seconds earlier?

Thanks,

Bill Kelly

Bill, I've never really been interested in all the hypothetical debates concerning Oswald's route to the murder scene, its always seemed a rather pointless exercise IMO, whats importaint is that its been shown, by independent researchers from both camps, that Oswald could indeed make the journey inside the time frame, I belive it was Gary Mack that showed if LHO followed a certain route (which bad memory stops me from quoting) he actually had 3/4 minutes to spare.

As for the actual shooting, I'm sure your more than aware there are at least 12 eyewitness which identified LHO. The ballistics are also very convincing, not so much the bullets, but certainly the shell casings found and handed over by the Davies sisters. These were positively proven to have been fired from Oswald's revolver to the exclusion of all other revolvers. That is to say the weapon that was found in Oswald's possession when arrested at the theater. And yes, I am aware of the claims that the revolver was planted on LHO but I dont see a scrap of evidence nor sensible argument to support that claim. Perhaps you have one ? Denis.

No, Denis, I don't have a logical explanation, though I would think that if Oswald walked passed those 12 people who later identified him as a cop killer would have said they saw him walk past them.

I don't really have any problem with Oswald killing Tippit, I just don't understand why the ballistics, which you are so positive of, didn't really match, and those witnesses who saw him, didn't see him walking past them earlier.

Thanks for getting back to me on this, as I thought you might have something more convincing.

And you certainly don't have anything to suggest that Oswald, even if he did kill Tippit, was the Sixth Floor Sniper?

Bill Kelly

No Bill, nothing new I'm afraid, but with a ballistic report such as this (see below) is anything new really needed? Whether you accept the conclusion's of the report or not you cant deny it is VERY convincing and unless we start adding even more people to the (already) long list of possible conspirators, inc private citizens, forensic experts, ballistic experts and yet even more members of the DPD, then the ballistic report must be accurate. I belive I'm right in saying that the report IN ITSELF has never been challenged, only unsubstantiated claims and allegations of evidence tampering.

And as for no one noticing Oswald as he walked to the scene, well frankly I would be surprised if anyone had noticed him, I must have walked or drove past at least 100 plus people today yet if asked I would be unable to describe or identify any one of them. Sad fact of life Bill, folk pay very little attention to other folk.

Finally, I never said I did "have anything" to suggest Oswald was the sixth floor shooter, furthermore I have never claimed that he was.

For me Bill, the big question is not, DID Oswald kill Tippit but WHY did he kill him, I've never been convinced they just met by chance. The evidence would seem to suggest Tippit was searching for Oswald even before a description went out.

---------------------------------------------------------------- Ballistic report.

When Oswald was arrested six live cartridges were found in the revolver. Three were Western .38 Specials, loaded with copper-coated lead bullets, and three were Remington-Peters .38 Specials, loaded with lead bullets. Five additional live cartridges were found in Oswald's pocket, all of which were Western .38 Specials, loaded with copper-coated bullets. The Western and Remington-Peters .88 Special cartridges are virtually identical--the copper coating on the Western bullets is not a full jacket, but only a gilding metal, put on principally for sales appeal.

Four expended cartridge cases were found near the site of the Tippit killing. Two of these cartridge cases were Remington-Peters .38 Specials and two were Western .38 Specials. Based on a comparison with test cartridge cases fired in the V510210 revolver, the four cartridge cases were identified as having been fired in the V510210 revolver.

Revolver Bullets

Four bullets were recovered from the body of Officer Tippit. In Nicol's opinion one of the four bullets could be positively identified with test bullets fired from V510210 revolver, and the other three could have been fired from that revolver. In Cunningham's opinion all four bullets could have been fired from the V510210 revolver, but none could be positively identified to the revolver --that is, in his opinion the bullets bore the revolver's rifling characteristics, but no conclusion could be drawn on the basis of microscopic characteristics. Cunningham did not conclude that the bullets had not been fired from the revolver, since he found that consecutive bullets fired in the revolver by the FBI could not even be identified with each other under the microscope. The apparent reasons for this was that while the revolver had been rechambered for a .38 Special cartridge, it had not been rebarreled for a .38 Special bullet. The barrel was therefore slightly oversized for a .38 Special bullet, which has a smaller diameter than a .38 S. & W. bullet. This would cause the passage of a .38 Special bullet through the barrel to be erratic, resulting in inconsistent microscopic markings.

Based on the number of grooves, groove widths, groove spacing, and knurling on the four recovered bullets, three were copper-coated lead bullets of Western-Winchester manufacture (Western and Winchester are divisions of the same company), and the fourth was a lead bullet of Remington-Peters manufacture. This contrasts with the four recovered cartridge cases, which consisted of two Remington-Peters and two Westerns. There are several possible explanations for this variance: (1) the killer fired five cartridges, three of which were Western-Winchester and two of which were Remington-Peters; one Remington-Peters bullet missed Tippit; and a Western-Winchester cartridge case and the Remington-Peters bullet that missed were simply not found. (2) The killer fired only four cartridges, three

of which were Western-Winchester and one of which was Remington-Peters; prior to the shooting the killer had an expended Remington-Peters cartridge case in his revolver, which was ejected with the three Western- Winchester and one Remington-Peters cases; and one of the Western-Winchester cases was not found. (3) The killer was using hand-loaded ammunition, that is, ammunition which is made with used cartridge cases to save money; thus he might have loaded one make of bullet into another make of cartridge case. This third possibility is extremely unlikely, because when a cartridge is fired the cartridge case expands, and before it can be reused it must be resized. There was, however, no evidence that any of the four recovered cartridge cases had been resized.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Denis Pointing

[Denis Pointing]

Denis,

The reason why Oswald's route to the Tippit murder scene is important is because courageous citizen researchers like Harold Weisberg and Sylvia Meagher proved it was impossible for him to be there. I don't care about Gary Mack's ridiculous attempt to buttress a long discredited theory- every witness Oswald supposedly encountered along his fantastic post-assassination journey was completely uncredible, and every one of his alleged movements make no sense, regardless of what his role that day was. The fact remains that no one-not the Warren Commission, not Dale Myers and not Gary Mack-can offer a single shred of evidence to show what time Oswald left the TSBD after the shooting. They all just follow the official story that he left at 12:33. There is nothing to corroborate this- not even a laughable witness like Markham or Whaley. I asked Dale Myers about this on another forum years ago, and he responded by demanding I buy his book and then left the forum in a huff.

The best evidence for Oswald's whereabouts after the assassination are the handful of unconnected witness reports of him running from the TSBD and entering a Rambler. These witnesses all told the same basic story, and presumably would not have had the comedic quality of those Oswald allegedly encountered along the fairy tale-like flight postulated by the Warren Commission. Unfortunately, this promising lead was never investigated, much like nothing else about this crime was ever investigated, so what happened from that point until he was apprehended at the Texas Theater is unknown. What logic tells us, however, is that no one- neither fleeing lone nut assassin nor unwitting conspirator nor innocent patsy- walks a distance from the scene of the crime, then takes a bus back towards it, then hails a cab again away from it, and tells the hilarious driver to drop him off past his rooming house, so he can waste more time walking back to it. As Fidel Castro once said, "that does not happen even in your worst American movies."

So 12 witnesses identified Oswald as the killer of Tippit? Hmm. Are you including Warren Reynolds, who initially couldn't identify Oswald but changed his mind after he was shot and subsequently recovered? How about Domingo Benavides, who had a similar change of perspective when his brother Eddy was shot and killed? Are you aware of the circumstances of the lineups under which witnesses "identified" Oswald? William Whaley's testimony is entertaining in several respects, but his somewhat unwitting description of the way the lineups were conducted, and Oswald's loud and angry protests about that, provide a pretty clear picture of what was going on. I would hope that anyone concerned about civil liberties would dismiss any "identification" obtained under such circumstances as totally dubious.

As is the case with the assassination of JFK, none of the "evidence" against Oswald in the murder of Tippit would even have been able to be introduced in an honest court of law, on chain of possession issues alone. Oswald shot no one on November 22, 1963.

Yes Don, but for every expert who can "prove" it impossible for Oswald to be at the scene there's a counter expert who can "prove" it was possible for Oswald to be there. Which is partly the reason why I maintain that debating hypothetical routes is a wast of time. As, to a large extent is discussing whether or not a particular witness is reliable or not, this is purely subjective, if an individual is already convinced Oswald was completely innocent then of course ANY witness testimony which contradicts that belief must be unreliable or lies. And of course this works vice versa. Personally, I find it inconceivable all 12 witnesses were mistaken, lying or terrorized into making false testimony.

I also completely disagree with you when you question the chain of possession. Below is PART of a post I wrote some time back together with some links, I belive it proves the chain of possession concerning the shells the Davies girls found and handed over (NOT the Poe shell) was well established. If your interested and would like to read the compleate post or the whole thread here's the link: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...mp;#entry159170

------------------------------------------------------------------------

.... below are three links to the sworn testimony of officers Brown, Dhority and Barnes. All three swore under oath that they marked the shells found at the Tippit murder scene.

If Oswald had gone to trial and those casings produced as evidence for those officers to identify, the chain of possession would have passed the criteria and they would have been accepted as admissible evidence......

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/dhority1.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brown_c.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/barnes.htm

Edited April 28, 2009 by Denis Pointing

[William Kelly]

The bottom line is Oswald is innocent of being the Sixth Floor Sniper, and whether or not he killed Tippit, since both crimes are related, they both remain legally unresolved, open cases.

Just as the Innocence Project has freed dozens of wrongfully convicted citizens, those actually responsible for those crimes remain free and unpersued.

The Till Bill would establish a multi-agency task force of federal, state and local law enforcement and prosecutors, and attempt to legally resolve those outstanding civil rights murders and assassinations of the 60s and 70s. That's the type of effort that would be necessary to reopen the investigations into the murders of JD Tippitt and JFK.

The murder of Tippit, as others have pointed out, is the Rosetta Stone of the assassination, and once it is solved, the details of what happened at Dealey Plaza will emerge.

Bill Kelly

[Greg Parker]

The bottom line is Oswald is innocent of being the Sixth Floor Sniper, and whether or not he killed Tippit, since both crimes are related, they both remain legally unresolved, open cases.

Bill, while what you say is quite true, you're giving ground here unnecessarily. The ball is not under any of Denis' cups, so why pick any of them?

Don't look at what he has offered up re the casings evidence chain. It's meaningless in light of what he hasn't offered up.

Just as the Innocence Project has freed dozens of wrongfully convicted citizens, those actually responsible for those crimes remain free and unpersued.

The Till Bill would establish a multi-agency task force of federal, state and local law enforcement and prosecutors, and attempt to legally resolve those outstanding civil rights murders and assassinations of the 60s and 70s. That's the type of effort that would be necessary to reopen the investigations into the murders of JD Tippitt and JFK.

The murder of Tippit, as others have pointed out, is the Rosetta Stone of the assassination, and once it is solved, the details of what happened at Dealey Plaza will emerge.

Bill Kelly

Edited April 29, 2009 by Greg Parker