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Evidence for the location of limo at moment first rifle shot is heard


Robert Mady

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MARY MOORMAN - AFFIDAVIT :” As President Kennedy was opposite me I took a picture of him. As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over.”

JEAN HILL – AFFIDAVIT: “Just as Mary Moorman started to take a picture we were looking at the president and Jackie in the back seat and they were looking at a little dog between them. Just as the president looked up toward us two shots rang out and I saw the President grab his chest and fall forward across Jackies [sic] lap and she fell across his back and said "My God he has been shot".”

EMMETT HUDSON – AFFIDAVIT: “At the same time the President's car was directly in front of us, I heard a shot and I saw the President fall over in the seat.”

MALCOLM SUMMERS – AFFIDAVIT: “The President's car had just come up in front of me when I heard a shot and saw the President slump down in the car and heard Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no,"”

Summation: these four witnesses place the limo location at Z-313 for the first shot that they heard.

Also please note, for each of these witnesses this is the moment they see the President 'slump' or 'fall over in the seat' they were unaware the President had been wounded prior to the shot that caused the fatal head wound or that a shot had occurred previous to this moment.

Edited by Robert Mady
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CHARLES BREHM – FBI : “When the President's automobile was very close to him and he could see the President's face very well, the President was seated, but was leaning forward when he stiffened perceptibly at the same instant what appeared to be a rifle shot sounded.”

“BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet.”

JACK FRANZEN – FBI: “He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President's car and noticed small fragments flying inside the President's car and immediately assumed that someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile.”

MRS. JACK FRANZEN – FBI: “she heard a noise which sounded to her as if someone had thrown a firecracker into the President's automobile. She advised at approximately the same time she noticed dust or small pieces of debris flying from the President's automobile.”

JEAN NEWMAN – AFFIDAVIT: “The motorcade had just passed me when I heard that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report, it just scared me, and I noticed that the President jumped, he sort of ducked his head down and I thought at the time that it probably scared him, too, just like it did me, because he flinched, like he jumped. I saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest.”

JEAN NEWMAN – FBI: “A car carrying the President and another person had just passed her when she heard a report and saw the President jump. raising hishands to his chest area. She stated she assumed the report to be a firecracker and thought how "human" the President was that he too would react by jumping at a sudden noise” ... "She stated the car had proceeded approximately 12 feet to her right when she heard a second report and saw the president slump to the front of the car. "

Summation: the location of the limo at the moment of hearing the first rifle shot is Z-313 for these four witnesses.

BREHM, continued to applaud as the limo passed his location, BREHM was unaware of an earlier shot or the fact that the President had already been wounded, the statement that that limo moves only 10-12 feet between first and third shots is also more key proof that precludes rifle shots coming at Z-230 or before.

Mr. and Mrs. FRANZENS description of the first shot causing the debris flying in the limo can only be describing the result of the President receiving the fatal head wound and the debris flying to the rear and left of the limo.

NEWMAN claims the limo passed her before hearing a shot, this puts the limo at Z-313. Also of note NEWMAN corroborates BREHM in the movement of the limo only taking about 12 feet between the first and second shots, also of note some witnesses did not detect the third shot because the last two shots were fired almost simultaneously.

Edited by Robert Mady
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MARY ELIZABETH WOODWARD – FBI” Just as the President and Mrs. KENNEDY went by, they turned and waved at them. Just a second or two later, she heard a loud noise. At this point, it appeared to her that President and Mrs. KENNEDY probably were about one hundred feet from her.”

HOWARD BRENNEN – AFFIDAVIT : “I proceeded to watch the President's car as it turned left at the corner where I was and about 50 yards from the intersection of Elm and Houston and to a point I would say the President's back was in line with the last windows I have previously described I heard what I thought was a back fire.”

JAMES TAGUE – FBI: “…when the motorcade was approximately 100 feet from him he heard a loud noise…”

WILLIAM SHELLEY – AFFIDAVIT: “The Presidents car was about half way from Houston Street to the triple underpass, when I heard what sounded like three shots.

Summation four witnesses claims equate to the first shot they heard to be at Z-313 or the rifle shot that causes the fatal head wound.

WOODWARD, 100 feet from her location is exactly the location of the limo at Z-313

BRENNEN, 50 yards from the intersection is approximately the location Z-313

TAGUE, 100 feet is closest to Z-313 and any shot earlier is not a possibility

SHELLEY, Z-313 is approximately 1/2 way down Elm to the Triple underpass.

Edited by Robert Mady
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This is the reason the FBI nor the WC attempted to establish the location of the limo for any of the shots, because this evidence reveals that the sequence established for the WC three shots is incorrect.

The only shot the WC was explicit about was the shot at Z-313, in which they were emphatic that this was the last shot fired. Which is a bold faced lie.

The shot at Z-313 was the second shot fired but the first rifle shot that was heard.

Twelve people bare witness to the first shot they heard to be when the limo was located at about Z-313, this is a fact according to twelve witnesses.

I know there are those that will say, it is just wrong, they got it wrong, Robert Mady got it wrong, will you still be so sure if I post another 12 witnesses that support the first shot they heard occurring at Z-313? How many witnesses accounts do I need to post for this to become real? Or are you totally convinced that the WC lies already entrenched in your mind are true? This is why you can't understand the assassination, this is why the testimony makes no sense, this is why the photographic evidence does not correlate to any story WC or conspiracy, because your timing of shots and number of shots is not correct.

For those awake enough to grasp this novel information, it will be the start to unveil the truth of the assassination.

Edited by Robert Mady
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Mary Moorman gave an interview not that long ago, in several parts, that can be viewed on Youtube in several instalments. In the second instalment, she describes to the interviewer the taking of her famous Polaroid. According to her, she heard the first shot at the time she took the photo, and two more shots following this one.

Simply Google "Mary Moorman Interview Part Two". I would post the link, but I do not seem to have posting privileges here.

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Robert, I have read MOORMANS Affidavit and FBI reports as well as listening or viewing all of the radio and tv media interviews from 11/22/1963.

There can be no doubt that both JEAN HILL and MARY MORMAN claimed the first shot heard occurred coincidentally when MOORMAN took the famous Polaroid that we are all familiar with at about Z-313. Most interesting is also the fact that this Polaroid was not included in the WC evidence nor was MOORMAN asked to give testimony... Nor, JEAN NEWMAN, MALCOLM SUMMERS, MR FRANZEN, MRS FRANZEN, MARY WOODWARD or CHARLES BREHM were asked to provide testimony. But the WC determined that it was somehow important that JAMES ROMACK who was not in DP during the assassination provide extensive testimony that could affirm that BAKER could have seen pigeons flying from the roofs of buildings during the assassination.

In a later thread I will go into the two additional rifle shots that followed the shot at Z-313 which was claimed by witnesses.

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Robert Mady, I accept what you say about what certain witnesses heard. I find what you report significant. The conclusion I draw is that different weapons, different types of weapons, were being fired at JFK. I think any reasonable person must draw the same conclusion, given that JFK apparently was struck by at least one bullet before the witnesses you cite heard the report of a weapon being fired.

I say "apparently" because I believe the extant Z-film is neither the camera original nor a copy of the camera original Z-film, and therefore I don't trust any of the information it contains to be true.

Thanks for your persistence.

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Jon, thank you for reading the thread, consideration of the evidence and your comments.

I agree with you Jon about alterations of the Zapruder Film, but consider the sequence of events is most likely still present and within it are those depicted thru inactions, actions and reactions which are of inestimable value to help determine the truth of the assassination.

More than this the Z-Film as well as all the other photographic media can now make sense when viewed in the proper perspective and all of this media corroborates the majority of testimony. In short the assassination is no longer a mystery.

much appreciated

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Well, we can agree on something Robert. In chapters 5 through 9 of my website I present the statements, testimony and comments of all the witnesses to the shooting. I did this to show that the first shot did not miss, as claimed by LNs. But I was surprised to find that the evidence also suggested that the second shot of the three shots heard by most witnesses was the head shot, and not the last shot.

Theconclusionthatshouldnthavebeen.jpg

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Ruth Smith (12-21-63 FBI interview, CD206 p.9) “She looked back toward President Kennedy’s car after the first shot and thinks he raised his hands to his face.”

I don't know how you count this but it is obvious that SMITH could not have heard a shot prior to Z-313 if twelve others nearer the limo were unaware of a shot prior to the rifle shot at Z-313, also the twelve witnesses much nearer were totally unaware that the President was wounded prior to the fatal head shot, it would be most likely that SMITH a half a block away could not have perceived KENNEDYS reaction when he was first wounded and reacted by leaning a little to his left, SMITHS description fits the first rifle shot at Z-313 where KENNEDYS reactions could even be discerned from far away.

SMITH also claimed the limo slowed or stopped after the first shot, this also describes the limos movement around the moments of Z-313 and not before

RUTH SMITH is describing the first rifle shot to have occurred at Z-313 and two more shots followed.

Edited by Robert Mady
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Pat, a question about the back wound, which Burkeley put at T3 and which many including I believe was a shallow wound.

I have read that the top of the back seat of the limo had a visible tear. I've come to suspect the back wound was caused by a bullet that struck and tore the top of the back seat before striking JFK's back. Do you have any view or information that is either consistent or inconsistent with what I suspect? Thanks.

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Mrs. MOONEYHAM heard a gunshot and observed President KENNEDY slump to the left of the seat of the car. At the time of the initial shot, Mrs. MOONEYHAM believed that a firecracker had gone off. Following the first shot, there was a slight pause and then two more shots were discharged, the second and third shots sounding closer together. Mrs. MOONEYHAM observed Mrs. KENNEDY climb up on the back of the car and her eyes were then diverted toward the left of the Presidential Motorcade on Elm Street toward a bystander, a man who had fallen to the ground.

Same discussion as with SMITH, MOONEYHAM must be describing the shot at Z-313, she is also a half a block away.

MOONEYHAM can not be describing JFK leaning to his left she is describing President KENNEDY falling into the seat after he is fatally wounded.

MOONEYHAM also describes accurately the third and fourth shots or second and third rifle shots to be close together.

MOONEYHAM is describing the first rifle shot to have occurred at Z-313 and two more shots followed.

Edited by Robert Mady
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CECIL AULT "Following the first shot Mr. AULT noted that President KENNEDY appeared to raise up in his seat in the Presidential automobile and after the second shot the President slumped into his seat."

Same discussion as with SMITH and MOONEYHAM, ALT must be describing the shot at Z-313, he is also a half a block away.

ALT can not be describing JFK leaning to his left he is describing President KENNEDY movements following being fatally wounded.

At Z-313 Alt notices a gross movement made by the bullet impacting KENNEDY, then after the next rifle shot, JACKIE gets out of the limo and as she does she lets go of KENNEDY and he falls into the seat, after the second rifle shot, this is what ALT is describing.

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Dr. Samuel Paternostro (1-20-64 FBI report, 24H536) “He said he estimated several seconds, possibly four or five more, elapsed between the first report and the second and third reports. He said he observed President John F. Kennedy when he appeared to grab his head and thought at the time he is “well-trained;” then, when the other reports followed in quick succession, he realized that the President had been shot.”

Same discussion as with SMITH, MOONEYHAM and ALT, PATERNOSTRO must be describing the shot at Z-313, he is also a half a block away.

PATERNOSTRO can not be describing JFK leaning to his left he is describing President KENNEDY reacting after being wounded at Z-313.

PATERNOSTRO also describes accurately the third and fourth shots or second and third rifle shots to be close together.

Edited by Robert Mady
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Harold Norman (3-24-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 3H186-198) "I can’t remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard a shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something."

I believe NORMAN had agreed to the dictates of the WC and had been scripted. Be that as it may.

The same argument is valid with NORMAN that was valid with SMITH, MOONEYHAM, ALT and PATERNOSTRO, the small movement KENNEDY made after being first wounded was unnoticed by every one in DP, if this is not true then a plausible explanation must be offered as to why 10 SSA failed to react to phenomenon that was obvious to witnesses all around DP who became immediately aware at the sight of KENNEDYS reaction and sound from a rifle shot.

NORMAN is describing KENNEDYS reaction when he is said to 'slump' after the rifle shot at Z-313

Edited by Robert Mady
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