Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Ian Kingsbury]

I think they would have to admit that Bill Hicks was correct

"No fkin Oswald in the window"

[Pat Speer]

Beyond that I think "Prayer Man" looks like a woman, I think those pushing that Prayer Man must be Oswald are missing something. The TSBD had a second building just up Houston. The employees from that building had access to the TSBD and may very well have mingled with their co-workers on the steps.

Now, is there a full accounting of those employees, so that we can see who was on Elm during the shooting? I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

[Sean Murphy]

Beyond that I think "Prayer Man" looks like a woman, I think those pushing that Prayer Man must be Oswald are missing something. The TSBD had a second building just up Houston. The employees from that building had access to the TSBD and may very well have mingled with their co-workers on the steps.

Now, is there a full accounting of those employees, so that we can see who was on Elm during the shooting? I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

Pat, which do you think is more likely:

a ) Prayer Man would be a TSBD (Elm Street) employee

or

b ) Prayer would not be a TSBD (Elm Street) employee?

And how likely is it that someone from the other building would "mingle with" co-workers and have their presence there noticed by not a single one of those co-workers?

Why such resistance to the obvious explanation: it's Oswald?

[Pat Speer]

Beyond that I think "Prayer Man" looks like a woman, I think those pushing that Prayer Man must be Oswald are missing something. The TSBD had a second building just up Houston. The employees from that building had access to the TSBD and may very well have mingled with their co-workers on the steps.

Now, is there a full accounting of those employees, so that we can see who was on Elm during the shooting? I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

Pat, which do you think is more likely:

a ) Prayer Man would be a TSBD (Elm Street) employee

or

b ) Prayer would not be a TSBD (Elm Street) employee?

And how likely is it that someone from the other building would "mingle with" co-workers and have their presence there noticed by not a single one of those co-workers?

Why such resistance to the obvious explanation: it's Oswald?

Obvious? You've got to be kidding.

We have a blurry unidentified figure in a photograph that some think looks like Oswald. It could be any one of a number of people, the number of which is unclear. It could even be a woman. From what we have uncovered, nobody standing near this person ever said this person was Oswald. And the existing record suggests that Oswald himself never said he was in this location at the time of the shooting. I mean, nothing. If it was Oswald, he could have said "Don't worry, Marina, I was out front when the shots were fired with lots of people nearby." But no, nothing.

So, there's no one saying it was Oswald...up against a number of people whose stories become problematic if it was Oswald.

And that's where it's likely to rest.

Now, that said, I still find this topic intriguing and worthwhile. Why? A whole bunch of reasons. 1) it arouses interest in the case. 2) it invites study of the record. 3) it may lead somewhere. Several years back, I had this vague notion that the paper bag photographed outside the building was not the paper bag in the FBI photographs. It sounded kinda loopy. But as I dug deeper, I found many indications that this was indeed the case. Did I prove it? Probably not. But was it worthwhile? Yep.

In this instance, you have found some evidence supporting that Baker and Truly saw Oswald as they entered the building. Have you proved it? No. It would be almost impossible to prove it at this point. But have you succeeded in blurring the once accepted fact that after the shooting Oswald was first observed by Baker in the second floor lunch room? And even raised the possibility Oswald was outside when the shots were fired?

For many, the answer will be yes.

[Sean Murphy]

Obvious? You've got to be kidding.

We have a blurry unidentified figure in a photograph that some think looks like Oswald. It could be any one of a number of people, the number of which is unclear. It could even be a woman. From what we have uncovered, nobody standing near this person ever said this person was Oswald. And the existing record suggests that Oswald himself never said he was in this location at the time of the shooting. I mean, nothing. If it was Oswald, he could have said "Don't worry, Marina, I was out front when the shots were fired with lots of people nearby." But no, nothing.

So, there's no one saying it was Oswald...up against a number of people whose stories become problematic if it was Oswald.

And that's where it's likely to rest.

Now, that said, I still find this topic intriguing and worthwhile. Why? A whole bunch of reasons. 1) it arouses interest in the case. 2) it invites study of the record. 3) it may lead somewhere. Several years back, I had this vague notion that the paper bag photographed outside the building was not the paper bag in the FBI photographs. It sounded kinda loopy. But as I dug deeper, I found many indications that this was indeed the case. Did I prove it? Probably not. But was it worthwhile? Yep.

In this instance, you have found some evidence supporting that Baker and Truly saw Oswald as they entered the building. Have you proved it? No. It would be almost impossible to prove it at this point. But have you succeeded in blurring the once accepted fact that after the shooting Oswald was first observed by Baker in the second floor lunch room? And even raised the possibility Oswald was outside when the shots were fired?

For many, the answer will be yes.

Pat,

If this were simply a matter of plucking out a rather blurry image and, solely on the basis of that image, rushing to the judgment, 'Look, it's obviously Oswald!', then your point would be well taken.

But that is not what has happened here. Not even close.

The Prayer Man images relate in a powerful way to a body of evidence putting Oswald, and the Oswald-Baker-Truly encounter, on the first floor and at the front entrance of the first floor.

Wiegman and Darnell show us

1. a white man (I know you don't agree, and we'll come to that)
2. who is neither besuited nor wearing the white shirt of an office worker
3. who has short hair
4. who has dark hair
5. who appears to be holding at least one item
6. who appears to be holding at least one item up to his lower face area during the assassination sequence (Wiegman)
7. who appears to have lowered his right arm again just seconds after the shooting (Darnell)
8. who is right in Baker's entry route as he rushes up the front steps.

All things being equal, which would you say is the more likely scenario?

a ) this is a TSBD (Elm St) person amongst lots of other TSBD (Elm St) people?

b ) this is a non-TSBD (Elm St) person amongst lots of TSBD (Elm St) people?

It's a no-brainer: the more likely scenario, by far, is a)

There have been intensive efforts in recent days to propose a single viable candidate from amidst the ranks of the TSBD personnel. We've been told it's probably Lovelady, Frazier, Molina, Williams, etc. I'm still waiting for someone to nominate the 'confused' Jack Dougherty.

Every single effort along these lines has come up blank.

Except one: TSBD (Elm St) employee Lee Oswald.

So we're left, by a process of simple elimination, with the explanation to the best and most obvious inference:

It's Oswald, eating his lunch

And if you're telling me that Prayer Man looks so unlike Oswald as to force us to look elsewhere for a more far-fetched explanation, well I really must beg to differ.

If an image this clear had been found at the SN window, I and I suspect most other CTs would have no choice but to wave the white flag and accept that Oswald was indeed the sixth floor shooter.

**

Now you have several times offered the suggestion that Prayer Man is in fact a woman.

At one point you even suggested 'she' was holding "a large purse in her hands".

Can you, with reference to actual images from Darnell, back up this idea?

Data, please.

[Richard Hocking]

Regarding a full accounting of all employees who were in the TSBD, the FBI did exactly that.

On March 16, 1964, WC General Counsel Lee Rankin sent a letter to the FBI (Hoover) requesting a signed statement be obtained from each person known to have been in the building on November 22, 1963.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11104&relPageId=2

The FBI complied with that request and more. On April 3, 1964 J. Edgar Hoover sent Rankin copies of 73 signed statements. There were not only statements from all known individuals from the TSBD Building, but also statements from 3 employees who worked at the warehouse at 1917 North Houston Street (none of them were in the TSBD that day).

Haddon Spurgeion Aiken was at the warehouse on North Houston

Edward Shields was at Mullendorf’s café with James Lacy and Givens

Franklin Emmet Wester, Stockman at Warehouse ate lunch in the warehouse

The FBI also took statements from several employees who did not show up for work or had left the building earlier to go somewhere for lunch that day.

Virginia Barnum worked at Mcgraw Hill that day but went out for lunch.

Jack Cason, President of the TSBD, left the building at 12:10 and went home

Warren Caster, District Manager for Southwestern Publishing, was at N Texas State University that day

Spaulding Earnest Jones, Manager of the Macmillan Co. was out for lunch sitting at the Blue Front Restaurant

Herbert Junker was having lunch with Jones at the Blue Front when news of the assassination came.

Helen Palmer of McGraw Hill did not go to work that day, but she did go to Love Field

The FBI did not obtain a statement from Joe Bergin.

He was a Regional Manager for Scott Foresman and was in a passenger airliner that day and did not go to work.

The FBI made a comprehensive effort to locate every employee and their whereabouts that day.

To suggest that both the FBI and the entire group of TBSD employees failed to notice another employee, or a stranger standing on the steps is walking on thin ice.

*Edited to specify the location of the person in question (PM).

Edited September 17, 2013 by Richard Hocking

[Robert Prudhomme]

I hate to keep bringing this up, and it may not be such a great idea but, seeing that we have so clearly identified Buell Wesley Frazier on the top steps and, as far as I know, he is still alive and healthy, has anyone ever thought about just asking him outright who the fellow was in the corner beside him?

Edited September 17, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Mark Knight]

Beyond that I think "Prayer Man" looks like a woman, I think those pushing that Prayer Man must be Oswald are missing something. The TSBD had a second building just up Houston. The employees from that building had access to the TSBD and may very well have mingled with their co-workers on the steps.

Now, is there a full accounting of those employees, so that we can see who was on Elm during the shooting? I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

Pat, which do you think is more likely:

a ) Prayer Man would be a TSBD (Elm Street) employee

or

b ) Prayer would not be a TSBD (Elm Street) employee?

And how likely is it that someone from the other building would "mingle with" co-workers and have their presence there noticed by not a single one of those co-workers?

Why such resistance to the obvious explanation: it's Oswald?

Obvious? You've got to be kidding.

We have a blurry unidentified figure in a photograph that some think looks like Oswald. It could be any one of a number of people, the number of which is unclear. It could even be a woman. From what we have uncovered, nobody standing near this person ever said this person was Oswald. And the existing record suggests that Oswald himself never said he was in this location at the time of the shooting. I mean, nothing. If it was Oswald, he could have said "Don't worry, Marina, I was out front when the shots were fired with lots of people nearby." But no, nothing.

So, there's no one saying it was Oswald...up against a number of people whose stories become problematic if it was Oswald.

And that's where it's likely to rest.

Now, that said, I still find this topic intriguing and worthwhile. Why? A whole bunch of reasons. 1) it arouses interest in the case. 2) it invites study of the record. 3) it may lead somewhere. Several years back, I had this vague notion that the paper bag photographed outside the building was not the paper bag in the FBI photographs. It sounded kinda loopy. But as I dug deeper, I found many indications that this was indeed the case. Did I prove it? Probably not. But was it worthwhile? Yep.

In this instance, you have found some evidence supporting that Baker and Truly saw Oswald as they entered the building. Have you proved it? No. It would be almost impossible to prove it at this point. But have you succeeded in blurring the once accepted fact that after the shooting Oswald was first observed by Baker in the second floor lunch room? And even raised the possibility Oswald was outside when the shots were fired?

For many, the answer will be yes.

Pat:

One thing you're NOT using here is something I heard over and over and over when I first came here:

Occam's razor.

"The principle in philosophy and science that assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity, and hence the simplest of several hypotheses is always the best in accounting for unexplained facts."

And the simplest hypothesis in THIS case is that, rather than an unidentified spectator "imported" from another building, perhaps Oswald slipped out the door and onto the top step, unnoticed, at the last possible moment.

It would explain why no one remembered Oswald being there. It would explain why "Prayer Man" resembles Oswald. It would be a logical place for an encounter with Officer Baker, and for Roy Truly to intercede.

Occam's razor.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Beyond that I think "Prayer Man" looks like a woman, I think those pushing that Prayer Man must be Oswald are missing something. The TSBD had a second building just up Houston. The employees from that building had access to the TSBD and may very well have mingled with their co-workers on the steps.

Now, is there a full accounting of those employees, so that we can see who was on Elm during the shooting? I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

Pat, which do you think is more likely:

a ) Prayer Man would be a TSBD (Elm Street) employee

or

b ) Prayer would not be a TSBD (Elm Street) employee?

And how likely is it that someone from the other building would "mingle with" co-workers and have their presence there noticed by not a single one of those co-workers?

Why such resistance to the obvious explanation: it's Oswald?

Obvious? You've got to be kidding.

We have a blurry unidentified figure in a photograph that some think looks like Oswald. It could be any one of a number of people, the number of which is unclear. It could even be a woman. From what we have uncovered, nobody standing near this person ever said this person was Oswald. And the existing record suggests that Oswald himself never said he was in this location at the time of the shooting. I mean, nothing. If it was Oswald, he could have said "Don't worry, Marina, I was out front when the shots were fired with lots of people nearby." But no, nothing.

So, there's no one saying it was Oswald...up against a number of people whose stories become problematic if it was Oswald.

And that's where it's likely to rest.

Now, that said, I still find this topic intriguing and worthwhile. Why? A whole bunch of reasons. 1) it arouses interest in the case. 2) it invites study of the record. 3) it may lead somewhere. Several years back, I had this vague notion that the paper bag photographed outside the building was not the paper bag in the FBI photographs. It sounded kinda loopy. But as I dug deeper, I found many indications that this was indeed the case. Did I prove it? Probably not. But was it worthwhile? Yep.

In this instance, you have found some evidence supporting that Baker and Truly saw Oswald as they entered the building. Have you proved it? No. It would be almost impossible to prove it at this point. But have you succeeded in blurring the once accepted fact that after the shooting Oswald was first observed by Baker in the second floor lunch room? And even raised the possibility Oswald was outside when the shots were fired?

For many, the answer will be yes.

Pat:

One thing you're NOT using here is something I heard over and over and over when I first came here:

Occam's razor.

"The principle in philosophy and science that assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity, and hence the simplest of several hypotheses is always the best in accounting for unexplained facts."

And the simplest hypothesis in THIS case is that, rather than an unidentified spectator "imported" from another building, perhaps Oswald slipped out the door and onto the top step, unnoticed, at the last possible moment.

It would explain why no one remembered Oswald being there. It would explain why "Prayer Man" resembles Oswald. It would be a logical place for an encounter with Officer Baker, and for Roy Truly to intercede.

Occam's razor.

First rule of Occam's Razor: It only applies in cases where it will support the conclusions of the researcher.

[William Kelly]

I hate to keep bringing this up, and it may not be such a great idea but, seeing that we have so clearly identified Buell Wesley Frazier on the top steps and, as far as I know, he is still alive and healthy, has anyone ever thought about just asking him outright who the fellow was in the corner beside him?

While I still want to show the photos from the films we have of "Prayer Man" to Frazer to see what he says, I still think that it looks a lot like Oswald, but it now appears that Buell Wesley Frazer was standing on the top of the steps - where "Prayer Man" was located and would certainly remember Oswald if he was standing there with him.

http://www.c-span.org/History/Events/Lee-Harvey-Oswald-amp-the-Kennedy-Assassination/10737440831/

What is astonishing is that Frazer says that a few minutes after the assassination he saw Oswald walking down Houston Street, apparently having exited the building from the back door loading dock, and he watched him cross Houston and Elm and disappear in the crowd. If true, Oswald did not exit the front door.

In this interview Frazer also claims that Capt. Fritz threatened him and tried to get him to sign a confession. If so, where is this typed "confession" and what does it say?

BK

Edited September 18, 2013 by William Kelly

[Pat Speer]

Regarding a full accounting of all employees who were in the TSBD, the FBI did exactly that.

On March 16, 1964, WC General Counsel Lee Rankin sent a letter to the FBI (Hoover) requesting a signed statement be obtained from each person known to have been in the building on November 22, 1963.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11104&relPageId=2

The FBI complied with that request and more. On April 3, 1964 J. Edgar Hoover sent Rankin copies of 73 signed statements. There were not only statements from all known individuals from the TSBD Building, but also statements from 3 employees who worked at the warehouse at 1917 North Houston Street (none of them were in the TSBD that day).

Haddon Spurgeion Aiken was at the warehouse on North Houston

Edward Shields was at Mullendorf’s café with James Lacy and Givens

Franklin Emmet Wester, Stockman at Warehouse ate lunch in the warehouse

The FBI also took statements from several employees who did not show up for work or had left the building earlier to go somewhere for lunch that day.

Virginia Barnum worked at Mcgraw Hill that day but went out for lunch.

Jack Cason, President of the TSBD, left the building at 12:10 and went home

Warren Caster, District Manager for Southwestern Publishing, was at N Texas State University that day

Spaulding Earnest Jones, Manager of the Macmillan Co. was out for lunch sitting at the Blue Front Restaurant

Herbert Junker was having lunch with Jones at the Blue Front when news of the assassination came.

Helen Palmer of McGraw Hill did not go to work that day, but she did go to Love Field

The FBI did not obtain a statement from Joe Bergin.

He was a Regional Manager for Scott Foresman and was in a passenger airliner that day and did not go to work.

The FBI made a comprehensive effort to locate every employee and their whereabouts that day.

To suggest that both the FBI and the entire group of TBSD employees failed to notice another employee, or a stranger standing on the steps is walking on thin ice.

*Edited to specify the location of the person in question (PM).

Thanks for proving my point, Richard. The FBI obtained statements from people they believed were IN the building on 11-22. They did not receive statements from ALL the employees of the second warehouse. So, how many employees worked in that building? Almost certainly more than three. So where did these other workers eat their lunch on 11-22? And from where did they watch the motorcade? We have NO idea.

The fact remains that Prayer Man is too blurry to be identified as Oswald, and can not be proclaimed to have been Oswald via Occam's Razor or any other method.

We don't know who it was. It MIGHT have been Oswald. That's significant. Let's not pretend it isn't. But that's where it's gonna rest without some sort of corroborative statement from the relatives of Oswald, Baker or Truly, or perhaps even Buell Frazier. It's gotta move beyond "we think it looks like him and can't figure out who else it could be" before anyone can say "Hey, it's Oswald!" and not look a little silly.

As for me, I suspect "Prayer Man" was a woman. There's something about the arms and neck, I suppose. There were a number of women claiming to have been on the steps who've never been identified in the photos. We simply lack the resources to identify these people, and match the names with the faces.

Perhaps Gary Mack can ask Frazier to go through the photos and footage of the steps and ID as many people as possible. I think Danny Arce is still alive. Maybe he can be approached as well.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Pat Speer

[Thomas Graves]

If this were the Imperial Reflex camera Prayer Man was holding, would he be bringing it up to his face to take pictures? As far as I remember, this camera was held at chest level and the photographer looked down into the viewfinder. This was one of the hangups in Marina Oswald's testimony.

Robert,

Good point.

However....

He might have been raising it in order to change the shutter speed and/or the aperture setting...

--Tommy

If I'm not mistaken, I believe both the shutter speed and aperture setting on the Imperial Reflex camera were fixed. It was not that expensive a camera.

Another possibility -- the Imperial Reflex has a plastic knob that turns to advance the film. PM is standing in a shadowy area. He might have raised the camera up higher to get a better look at the film sequence indicator to make sure it had been wound correctly for the next shot. A common camera issue in those days.

Another possibility: Binoculars.

[Bjørn Gjerde]

Hoover’s narrative of the events in TSBD as told to President Johnson on Novemberr 29, 1963:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=882&relPageId=5

“He then threw the gun aside and came down….at the entrance of the building he was stopped by police officers and some manager in the building told the police officers, ‘well he’s allright…he works there…you needn’t hold him.’ They let him go. That is how he got out.”

***

...he apparently had come down the five flights of steps – stairway – from the fifth floor…so far we’ve found out the elevator was not used…although he could have used it…but nobody remember whether it was or whether it wasn’t.

***

So, according to Hoover per November 29, there had been no lunch room encounter between Oswald and Baker.

Bjørn Gjerde

[Robert Prudhomme]

If this were the Imperial Reflex camera Prayer Man was holding, would he be bringing it up to his face to take pictures? As far as I remember, this camera was held at chest level and the photographer looked down into the viewfinder. This was one of the hangups in Marina Oswald's testimony.

Robert,

Good point.

However....

He might have been raising it in order to change the shutter speed and/or the aperture setting...

--Tommy

If I'm not mistaken, I believe both the shutter speed and aperture setting on the Imperial Reflex camera were fixed. It was not that expensive a camera.

Another possibility -- the Imperial Reflex has a plastic knob that turns to advance the film. PM is standing in a shadowy area. He might have raised the camera up higher to get a better look at the film sequence indicator to make sure it had been wound correctly for the next shot. A common camera issue in those days.

Another possibility: Binoculars.

Never thought of binoculars. Good point.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hoover’s narrative of the events in TSBD as told to President Johnson on Novemberr 29, 1963:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=882&relPageId=5

“He then threw the gun aside and came down….at the entrance of the building he was stopped by police officers and some manager in the building told the police officers, ‘well he’s allright…he works there…you needn’t hold him.’ They let him go. That is how he got out.”

***

...he apparently had come down the five flights of steps – stairway – from the fifth floor…so far we’ve found out the elevator was not used…although he could have used it…but nobody remember whether it was or whether it wasn’t.

***

So, according to Hoover per November 29, there had been no lunch room encounter between Oswald and Baker.

Bjørn Gjerde

Good work Bjorne. That Oswald sure got around that day, to be seen in so many places.