Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Robert Prudhomme]

This has been a great thread, and it has revealed testimony, statements and interviews that clearly show the lunchroom encounter between Baker/Truly and Oswald was an evolving fabrication. It has also shown us a person on the steps of the TSBD that 1) no one can seem to identify and 2) clearly resembles Oswald.

That being said, I would like us all to hold off our celebrations at proving Oswald was outside on the steps of the TSBD until we deal with a small nagging problem I brought up earlier. My suspicions were further aroused after I went to the link Mr. Kelly provided that showed an hour long videotaped interview with Buell Wesley Frazier, dated July 7, 2013, and conducted by the assistant curator of the Sixth Floor Museum. It is an excellent interview, and well worth watching in its entirety. Here is the link again:

http://www.c-span.or...on/10737440831/

The material relevant to this thread begins at about the 35 minute mark, I believe.

In his testimony to the WC, Frazier tells them about the people that were with him on the steps of the TSBD. From his WC testimony:

"Mr. BALL - Did you go out there with somebody?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL - Who did you go out there with?

Mr. FRAZIER - I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.

Mr. BALL - And it turned out to be a good day?

Mr. FRAZIER - Pretty sunshiny day.

Mr. BALL - Warm?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was pretty warm.

Mr. BALL - Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.

Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.

Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.

Mr. BALL - By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Shown in this picture?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.

Mr. BALL - Yes, sir.

Mr. FRAZIER - We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around there.

Mr. BALL - Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for Frazier.

Mr. FRAZIER - O.K."

"There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name."

In his interview of 07/07/13, Frazier again makes reference a lady being with him, in a disjointed, uncompleted sentence, while speaking about being on the steps of the TSBD at the time of the assassination.

"The lady I was standing next to...."

A few sentences later, he has described seeing Shelley and Lovelady heading for the Triple Underpass. A few minutes after the last shot, Frazier tells us a woman came up to the TSBD steps and tells everyone about the assassination. Frazier's next words, in the interview, are:

"I turned to Sarah, she said someone shot the President."

As we know the FBI conducted interviews with every employee in the building to establish where they were at the time of the assassination, I think it would be wise, at this point, to find out what Sarah's last name was and to examine her interview with the FBI to see where she claimed to be at 12:30 on 22/11/63.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Richard Hocking]

Regarding a full accounting of all employees who were in the TSBD, the FBI did exactly that.

On March 16, 1964, WC General Counsel Lee Rankin sent a letter to the FBI (Hoover) requesting a signed statement be obtained from each person known to have been in the building on November 22, 1963.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11104&relPageId=2

The FBI complied with that request and more. On April 3, 1964 J. Edgar Hoover sent Rankin copies of 73 signed statements. There were not only statements from all known individuals from the TSBD Building, but also statements from 3 employees who worked at the warehouse at 1917 North Houston Street (none of them were in the TSBD that day).

Haddon Spurgeion Aiken was at the warehouse on North Houston

Edward Shields was at Mullendorf’s café with James Lacy and Givens

Franklin Emmet Wester, Stockman at Warehouse ate lunch in the warehouse

The FBI also took statements from several employees who did not show up for work or had left the building earlier to go somewhere for lunch that day.

Virginia Barnum worked at Mcgraw Hill that day but went out for lunch.

Jack Cason, President of the TSBD, left the building at 12:10 and went home

Warren Caster, District Manager for Southwestern Publishing, was at N Texas State University that day

Spaulding Earnest Jones, Manager of the Macmillan Co. was out for lunch sitting at the Blue Front Restaurant

Herbert Junker was having lunch with Jones at the Blue Front when news of the assassination came.

Helen Palmer of McGraw Hill did not go to work that day, but she did go to Love Field

The FBI did not obtain a statement from Joe Bergin.

He was a Regional Manager for Scott Foresman and was in a passenger airliner that day and did not go to work.

The FBI made a comprehensive effort to locate every employee and their whereabouts that day.

To suggest that both the FBI and the entire group of TBSD employees failed to notice another employee, or a stranger standing on the steps is walking on thin ice.

*Edited to specify the location of the person in question (PM).

Thanks for proving my point, Richard. The FBI obtained statements from people they believed were IN the building on 11-22. They did not receive statements from ALL the employees of the second warehouse. So, how many employees worked in that building? Almost certainly more than three. So where did these other workers eat their lunch on 11-22? And from where did they watch the motorcade? We have NO idea.

The fact remains that Prayer Man is too blurry to be identified as Oswald, and can not be proclaimed to have been Oswald via Occam's Razor or any other method.

We don't know who it was. It MIGHT have been Oswald. That's significant. Let's not pretend it isn't. But that's where it's gonna rest without some sort of corroborative statement from the relatives of Oswald, Baker or Truly, or perhaps even Buell Frazier. It's gotta move beyond "we think it looks like him and can't figure out who else it could be" before anyone can say "Hey, it's Oswald!" and not look a little silly.

As for me, I suspect "Prayer Man" was a woman. There's something about the arms and neck, I suppose. There were a number of women claiming to have been on the steps who've never been identified in the photos. We simply lack the resources to identify these people, and match the names with the faces.

Perhaps Gary Mack can ask Frazier to go through the photos and footage of the steps and ID as many people as possible. I think Danny Arce is still alive. Maybe he can be approached as well.

Pat,

Your point has not been proven. And I think we will see that your assertion was incorrect.

The FBI was charged with getting statements from everyone who was in the TSBD that day. They did exactly that.

In addition, they took statements from the three employees at the warehouse at 1917 North Houston. You are implying they took only a random sampling of the employees there. That would be an inefficient method to gather evidence, and it was not the case.

In 2000, Jerry Organ researched the history of the TSBD and wrote an article titled “Murder Perch to Museum”. It now appears on the McAdams website

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/organ4.htm

Here is a quote from that article, below (note that the TSBD was formerly called the Sexton Building):

“…In 1963, the year the company consolidated most of its operation in the former Sexton Building, it employed 33 workers, including 19 warehouse men, of whom four remained at the old warehouse at 1917 N. Houston Street, a few blocks north. Most Depository workers used the parking lot of this smaller warehouse …”

Four employees at the North Houston Warehouse.

I previously listed the 3 employees interviewed who were working at the North Houston warehouse that day, Aiken, Shields, and Wester. There were 2 other employees from the warehouse who were “on loan” to the TSBD to help with the work load and laying the floors: Danny Arce and Bonnie Ray Williams.

Link to Arce testimony below:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol6/page364.php

As you know, Arce and Williams were also interviewed.

In other words, all the known employees of both buildings were interviewed or accounted for.

Now if you have reliable information that there was an employee in either building that was unaccounted for, please post the name.

If not, I believe this issue is settled.

[William Kelly]

Regarding a full accounting of all employees who were in the TSBD, the FBI did exactly that.

On March 16, 1964, WC General Counsel Lee Rankin sent a letter to the FBI (Hoover) requesting a signed statement be obtained from each person known to have been in the building on November 22, 1963.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11104&relPageId=2

The FBI complied with that request and more. On April 3, 1964 J. Edgar Hoover sent Rankin copies of 73 signed statements. There were not only statements from all known individuals from the TSBD Building, but also statements from 3 employees who worked at the warehouse at 1917 North Houston Street (none of them were in the TSBD that day).

Haddon Spurgeion Aiken was at the warehouse on North Houston

Edward Shields was at Mullendorf’s café with James Lacy and Givens

Franklin Emmet Wester, Stockman at Warehouse ate lunch in the warehouse

The FBI also took statements from several employees who did not show up for work or had left the building earlier to go somewhere for lunch that day.

Virginia Barnum worked at Mcgraw Hill that day but went out for lunch.

Jack Cason, President of the TSBD, left the building at 12:10 and went home

Warren Caster, District Manager for Southwestern Publishing, was at N Texas State University that day

Spaulding Earnest Jones, Manager of the Macmillan Co. was out for lunch sitting at the Blue Front Restaurant

Herbert Junker was having lunch with Jones at the Blue Front when news of the assassination came.

Helen Palmer of McGraw Hill did not go to work that day, but she did go to Love Field

The FBI did not obtain a statement from Joe Bergin.

He was a Regional Manager for Scott Foresman and was in a passenger airliner that day and did not go to work.

The FBI made a comprehensive effort to locate every employee and their whereabouts that day.

To suggest that both the FBI and the entire group of TBSD employees failed to notice another employee, or a stranger standing on the steps is walking on thin ice.

*Edited to specify the location of the person in question (PM).

Thanks for proving my point, Richard. The FBI obtained statements from people they believed were IN the building on 11-22. They did not receive statements from ALL the employees of the second warehouse. So, how many employees worked in that building? Almost certainly more than three. So where did these other workers eat their lunch on 11-22? And from where did they watch the motorcade? We have NO idea.

The fact remains that Prayer Man is too blurry to be identified as Oswald, and can not be proclaimed to have been Oswald via Occam's Razor or any other method.

We don't know who it was. It MIGHT have been Oswald. That's significant. Let's not pretend it isn't. But that's where it's gonna rest without some sort of corroborative statement from the relatives of Oswald, Baker or Truly, or perhaps even Buell Frazier. It's gotta move beyond "we think it looks like him and can't figure out who else it could be" before anyone can say "Hey, it's Oswald!" and not look a little silly.

As for me, I suspect "Prayer Man" was a woman. There's something about the arms and neck, I suppose. There were a number of women claiming to have been on the steps who've never been identified in the photos. We simply lack the resources to identify these people, and match the names with the faces.

Perhaps Gary Mack can ask Frazier to go through the photos and footage of the steps and ID as many people as possible. I think Danny Arce is still alive. Maybe he can be approached as well.

Pat,

Your point has not been proven. And I think we will see that your assertion was incorrect.

The FBI was charged with getting statements from everyone who was in the TSBD that day. They did exactly that.

In addition, they took statements from the three employees at the warehouse at 1917 North Houston. You are implying they took only a random sampling of the employees there. That would be an inefficient method to gather evidence, and it was not the case.

In 2000, Jerry Organ researched the history of the TSBD and wrote an article titled “Murder Perch to Museum”. It now appears on the McAdams website

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/organ4.htm

Here is a quote from that article, below (note that the TSBD was formerly called the Sexton Building):

“…In 1963, the year the company consolidated most of its operation in the former Sexton Building, it employed 33 workers, including 19 warehouse men, of whom four remained at the old warehouse at 1917 N. Houston Street, a few blocks north. Most Depository workers used the parking lot of this smaller warehouse …”

Four employees at the North Houston Warehouse.

I previously listed the 3 employees interviewed who were working at the North Houston warehouse that day, Aiken, Shields, and Wester. There were 2 other employees from the warehouse who were “on loan” to the TSBD to help with the work load and laying the floors: Danny Arce and Bonnie Ray Williams.

Link to Arce testimony below:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol6/page364.php

As you know, Arce and Williams were also interviewed.

In other words, all the known employees of both buildings were interviewed or accounted for.

Now if you have reliable information that there was an employee in either building that was unaccounted for, please post the name.

If not, I believe this issue is settled.

There was an employee at the other building who kept the files on employees who Truly called seeking Oswald's address. I don't believe this employee was questioned.

BK

[Richard Hocking]

There was an employee at the other building who kept the files on employees who Truly called seeking Oswald's address. I don't believe this employee was questioned.

BK

Bill,

This sounds like it might have been an office worker or secretary.

Do you have any other info?

Edited September 18, 2013 by Richard Hocking

[Sean Murphy]

There was an employee at the other building who kept the files on employees who Truly called seeking Oswald's address. I don't believe this employee was questioned.

BK

Bill,

This sounds like it might have been an office worker or secretary.

Do you have any other info?

That's H. S. Aiken: he was questioned and his movements fully accounted for.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Buell Wesley Frazier, interview of 07/07/13:

"I turned to Sarah, she said someone shot the President."

Buell Wesley Frazier, testimony to the WC, 1964:

"Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name."

Once again, what was Sarah's last name, where did she work in the TSBD, and where was she standing during and after the assassination?

[Sean Murphy]

Buell Wesley Frazier, interview of 07/07/13:

"I turned to Sarah, she said someone shot the President."

Buell Wesley Frazier, testimony to the WC, 1964:

"Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name."

Once again, what was Sarah's last name, where did she work in the TSBD, and where was she standing during and after the assassination?

Robert, that's Sarah Stanton.

She was standing beside Pauline Sanders, who was standing over at the east end of the entrance.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Buell Wesley Frazier, interview of 07/07/13:

"I turned to Sarah, she said someone shot the President."

Buell Wesley Frazier, testimony to the WC, 1964:

"Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name."

Once again, what was Sarah's last name, where did she work in the TSBD, and where was she standing during and after the assassination?

I believe I have identified her. Her name is Sarah D. Stanton, d.o.b. 06/09/22. This link is to her statement to the FBI, in which she claimed to be standing on the front steps of the TSBD with Shelley, Williams, Lovelady and Mrs. N.K. Sanders. She does not tell us where she was standing on the steps but, she does tell us this, though, "I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time".

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=171505

Why was she unable to see the President's car "at that time"?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Buell Wesley Frazier, interview of 07/07/13:

"I turned to Sarah, she said someone shot the President."

Buell Wesley Frazier, testimony to the WC, 1964:

"Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name."

Once again, what was Sarah's last name, where did she work in the TSBD, and where was she standing during and after the assassination?

Robert, that's Sarah Stanton.

She was standing beside Pauline Sanders, who was standing over at the east end of the entrance.

Sorry, Sean, I posted before I saw you had replied.

I hate to keep asking questions but, considering the seriousness of our topic, what proof is there that Sarah Stanton was on the east side of the entrance?

Please understand, I am more than prepared to be convinced P.M. was not Sarah Stanton. I simply have no desire to have some LN throw this in our faces later on, should we be mistaken.

[Sean Murphy]

Buell Wesley Frazier, interview of 07/07/13:

"I turned to Sarah, she said someone shot the President."

Buell Wesley Frazier, testimony to the WC, 1964:

"Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name."

Once again, what was Sarah's last name, where did she work in the TSBD, and where was she standing during and after the assassination?

I believe I have identified her. Her name is Sarah D. Stanton, d.o.b. 06/09/22. This link is to her statement to the FBI, in which she claimed to be standing on the front steps of the TSBD with Shelley, Williams, Lovelady and Mrs. N.K. Sanders. She does not tell us where she was standing on the steps but, she does tell us this, though, "I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time".

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=171505

Why was she unable to see the President's car "at that time"?

Like others on the front steps, she lost sight of the President's car due to the dipping of the road: people's view was blocked by the spectators lining the street and/or the wall. See for instance Frazier's own testimony on that score.

[Sean Murphy]

Buell Wesley Frazier, interview of 07/07/13:

"I turned to Sarah, she said someone shot the President."

Buell Wesley Frazier, testimony to the WC, 1964:

"Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name."

Once again, what was Sarah's last name, where did she work in the TSBD, and where was she standing during and after the assassination?

Robert, that's Sarah Stanton.

She was standing beside Pauline Sanders, who was standing over at the east end of the entrance.

Sorry, Sean, I posted before I saw you had replied.

I hate to keep asking questions but, considering the seriousness of our topic, what proof is there that Sarah Stanton was on the east side of the entrance?

Please understand, I am more than prepared to be convinced P.M. was not Sarah Stanton. I simply have no desire to have some LN throw this in our faces later on, should we be mistaken.

No problem, Robert. And asking questions is what we're all here for.

Pauline Sanders places Sarah Stanton right beside her (PM is conspicuously on his own) over on the east side of the entrance (PM is over on the west side).

[Robert Prudhomme]

Buell Wesley Frazier, interview of 07/07/13:

"I turned to Sarah, she said someone shot the President."

Buell Wesley Frazier, testimony to the WC, 1964:

"Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name."

Once again, what was Sarah's last name, where did she work in the TSBD, and where was she standing during and after the assassination?

Robert, that's Sarah Stanton.

She was standing beside Pauline Sanders, who was standing over at the east end of the entrance.

Sorry, Sean, I posted before I saw you had replied.

I hate to keep asking questions but, considering the seriousness of our topic, what proof is there that Sarah Stanton was on the east side of the entrance?

Please understand, I am more than prepared to be convinced P.M. was not Sarah Stanton. I simply have no desire to have some LN throw this in our faces later on, should we be mistaken.

No problem, Robert. And asking questions is what we're all here for.

Pauline Sanders places Sarah Stanton right beside her (PM is conspicuously on his own) over on the east side of the entrance (PM is over on the west side).

Thank you. That clears things up rather nicely.

Well, nothing left to ask but, WHO IS PRAYER MAN??

[Robert Prudhomme]

BTW, could you provide a link to the statement or testimony from Pauline Sanders that confirms this?

[Sean Murphy]

BTW, could you provide a link to the statement or testimony from Pauline Sanders that confirms this?

Sure thing--

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1317&relPageId=702

[Sean Murphy]

It must surely rank as one of the most peculiar moments in the WC's many pages of witness testimony:

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The Vice President hadn't gone by, had he, by your place?
Mr. SHELLEY - I don't know. I didn't recognize him. I did recognize Mr. Kennedy and his suntan I had been hearing about.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.

We know from the Darnell film that Shelley's sighting of Baker and Truly actually happened around half a minute after the shooting.

Yet here we have Shelley himself giving us a time estimate that is extravagantly outsize.

**

The peculiarity is only compounded, however, when we hear the person who was with Shelley out on the 'island' backing him up in this time estimate:

Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Three minutes, as Ball correctly notes, is indeed a long time for Lovelady to be estimating for his and Shelley's departure from the front steps.

In fact it's plain absurd.

While one might--at a stretch--credit one witness's memory going badly askew due to the shock of an assassination, being asked to believe that the time sense of this witness's companion was off to precisely the same extent (3 minutes for the departure from the steps; between 3 and 4 minutes for the sighting of Baker and Truly) will surely tax the credulity of even the most trusting of readers.

**

How do we explain this shared error on the part of Shelley and Lovelady?

Why are both misremembering in such unbelievably synchronised fashion?

Their error cannot have come from WC prompting, for the timeline the Commission had painstakingly put together via a series of rigged time trials already accommodated perforce a realistically early entry into the building by Baker and Truly.

**

I submit that Shelley and Lovelady are giving us evidence of very early coaching by DPD men and/or FBI agents.

For, as we have seen, the case/admission was made on the evening of the assassination that Oswald had been 'stopped' by the officer at the front entrance.

When Jesse Curry blithely announced this fact to news reporters that evening, he can have had no idea just how how troublesome a hostage to fortune he was giving. The disastrous evidence of the Darnell film was not yet known at this stage, so the first tack was simply to delay Baker's entry into the building to a point that would give Oswald time to make his descent from the sixth floor and 'escape'.

If this meant working on a couple of witnesses to Baker and Truly's entry, then so be it. (Cf. what Sandra Styles told me about the authorities' informing her that the first officers to reach the building did not arrive until some 15-20 minutes after the shooting.)

Unfortunately, no one thought to mention to Shelley and Lovelady ahead of their WC appearances that they could revert to their real memories and just tell the truth: we left the front entrance less than half a minute after the last shot.

**

As we shall see presently, the WC will have its own dirty work to do on Shelley and Lovelady, this time in relation to the Vicki Adams problem.

But for now let's turn to what happened in the first few days after the assassination to the original plan of extending the timeline so as to contrive a scenario consistent with Oswald's descent and guilt.