Igor Vaganov

[James Richards]

Would be nice to get those hi-res Texas Theater [arrest scene of LHO] photo's on this thread. (Robert Howard)

Robert,

This is the best version I have of the image Ed posted.

James

[Robert Howard]

Would be nice to get those hi-res Texas Theater [arrest scene of LHO] photo's on this thread. (Robert Howard)

Robert,

This is the best version I have of the image Ed posted.

James

Thank's James. Interesting. He doesen't appear to be smoking a cigarette. Deciding on what is going on in the picture, is almost like an officials ruling in NFL Football. "After reviewing the play the ruling on the fumble is 'inconclusive.'" But Ed's postulation certainly has merit in my book.

P.S. James, does Robin Unger still have the website? I went to it trying to take a look at the Texas Theater photo's in color and they didn't pull up.

[Ed O'Hagan]

Would be nice to get those hi-res Texas Theater [arrest scene of LHO] photo's on this thread. (Robert Howard)

Robert,

This is the best version I have of the image Ed posted.

James

Thank's James. Interesting. He doesen't appear to be smoking a cigarette. Deciding on what is going on in the picture, is almost like an officials ruling in NFL Football. "After reviewing the play the ruling on the fumble is 'inconclusive.'" But Ed's postulation certainly has merit in my book.

P.S. James, does Robin Unger still have the website? I went to it trying to take a look at the Texas Theater photo's in color and they didn't pull up.

[Dave Weaver]

And while everyone is guessing what the meaning of

1) ESTRAZDS

2) ARVIDS

3) JZAKS

is/was

let me, after consulting my brain for 1 minute and google for 2,add my preliminary 3 cents worth of speculation here:

1) E. STRAZ DS (Dallas) or maybe E. Stroz DS (Dallas) maybe E. Strauss (german for Straz)

2) ARVI DS (Dallas) Arvi Park ??? Camping ground ??? Beaumont Texas ??? Did it exist in 1963 ???

3) JZAKS J(erry) or J(ulie) or etc. Zaks

maybe someone can check on any relevance of the above in the context of the assassination,Dallas and or Texas in and around 1963.

Edited July 8, 2006 by Dave Weaver

[James Richards]

Would be nice to get those hi-res Texas Theater [arrest scene of LHO] photo's on this thread. (Robert Howard)

Robert,

This is the best version I have of the image Ed posted.

James

Thank's James. Interesting. He doesen't appear to be smoking a cigarette. Deciding on what is going on in the picture, is almost like an officials ruling in NFL Football. "After reviewing the play the ruling on the fumble is 'inconclusive.'" But Ed's postulation certainly has merit in my book.

P.S. James, does Robin Unger still have the website? I went to it trying to take a look at the Texas Theater photo's in color and they didn't pull up.

Robert,

I think Robin is still in business. I was checking things out there a week or so ago. I will send you the color shots privately.

James

[Ed O'Hagan]

James,

If you happen to see a picture of the Texas Theater which shows the telephone number of the box-office, would you ( or anyone) please be so kind as to post it. If it turns up, I'll explain how it can be part of the explanation leading up to the murder of Tippit.

Thank you,

[Lee Forman]

And while everyone is guessing what the meaning of

1) ESTRAZDS

2) ARVIDS

3) JZAKS

is/was

let me, after consulting my brain for 1 minute and google for 2,add my preliminary 3 cents worth of speculation here:

1) E. STRAZ DS (Dallas) or maybe E. Stroz DS (Dallas) maybe E. Strauss (german for Straz)

2) ARVI DS (Dallas) Arvi Park ??? Camping ground ??? Beaumont Texas ??? Did it exist in 1963 ???

3) JZAKS J(erry) or J(ulie) or etc. Zaks

maybe someone can check on any relevance of the above in the context of the assassination,Dallas and or Texas in and around 1963.

Hi Dave - wouldn't waste too much time on it. They had a cryptograph machine. Like ENIGMA. Put something in - get something out which had no meaning or connection. Like many of the other cryptos that have been posted here. The first two letters were an indicator in those cases - like AM, or MK - however, in the case of an individual's code name - I would wager that we don't have the prefix here. It won't be as easy as simple anagrams or etc. I did run each one through a NARA search - without success. I would hazard a guess that Collins radio has something to do with who these folks may have been.

- lee

[Dave Weaver]

Hi Lee,

you may well be right.

As I said, I was only speculating, and often one reads more into a riddle than

there is.

For that short glimpse, I did let my feeling rule, as I was already on my way to bed.

I will look at this further eventualy, but won't force it, if you want to,

let me know what your approach and information is if it goes beyond

what you have written, maybe we can work something out.

I did read your links on the crypto thread, and found it quite interresting.

I am into something myself, that has to do with very very very large

numbers, I think you know what I mean.

Can't tell more publicly.

No I am not a mathematician nor am I a crypto expert,but found that fact

always more helpfull than hindering.

Edited July 8, 2006 by Dave Weaver

[Lee Forman]

Hi Lee,

you may well be right.

As I said, I was only speculating, and often one reads more into a riddle than

there is.

For that short glimpse, I did let my feeling rule, as I was already on my way to bed.

I will look at this further eventualy, but won't force it, if you want to,

let me know what your approach and information is if it goes beyond

what you have written, maybe we can work something out.

I did read your links on the crypto thread, and found it quite interresting.

I am into something myself, that has to do with very very very large

numbers, I think you know what I mean.

Can't tell more publicly.

No I am not a mathematician nor am I a crypto expert,but found that fact

always more helpfull than hindering.

Sounds like a lot of fun! Good luck!

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJu...hOutOfLoop.html

On 22 November 1963 Collins Radio was in charge of radio relay for all secure communications from and to Air Force One (AF-1). Collins was later absorbed into Rockwell International. Bill Kelly has done extensive work on the Collins Radio personnel and connections to the events of 11/22/63. I found Collins later in the emerging scandal about the National Reconnaissance Organization financing a new headquarters building covertly without notifying Congress. The hidden money pass-through was Collins/Rockwell, and the NRO initials used to be secret.

Let's see here - a 1957 Plymouth, or a 1961 Ford Falcon - or both, using Mather's plates temporarily for the operation maybe? And perhaps one of these incidents is related to Vaganov?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/hscalojt.htm

Wise went to Pate to discuss the story with the mechanic.(33) The mechanic told Wise that after the assassination there were sirens blaring and police cars "all over the area" near the garage.(34) He noticed a man sitting in an irregularly parked car in the restaurant parking lot; the car was slightly hidden by a billboard.(35) The man in the car appeared to be hiding, according to the mechanic.(36) All of the circumstances seemed so suspicious that the mechanic went across the street to get a better look.(37) When he was about 10 or 15 yards from the car, the man turned around.(38) The mechanic was able then to get a good look at his face; he saw also that the man was wearing a white T-shirt.(39) He made a note of the license number of the car.(40)

When the mechanic saw news accounts of the assassination that night on television, he saw Lee Harvey Oswald and recognized him as being the man he had soon in the car that afternoon.(41) The mechanic had been afraid of reporting the incident.(42) Nevertheless, after Pate brought Wise to meet him, Wise was able to convince the mechanic that he should report the incident to the FBI.(43) The mechanic took with him the note paper on which he had jotted the license number.(44)

Wes stated also that he later took employees of CBS to meet the owner of the license number.(45) Wise said that during that meeting, which was arranged as a dinner between the owner and his wife and the person from CBS, the man appeared "so upset" and "agitated" that he was unable to eat.(46) At that time, the man explained his plate number was noticed under the suspicious circumstances and that he was a friend of Tippit, who had been killed at almost the same time very nearby.(47)

Wise told the committee that he jotted down the information he received from Pate and the mechanic on a piece of paper he was carrying in his pocket at the time of his speech at the El Chico Restaurant.(48) He turned that paper over to the committee. Wise also told the committee that he thought he was still in possession of the slip of paper containing the license number that had been written by the mechanic. Wise told the committee that after several attempts he has been unable to locate that slip of paper among his records at his home.(49)

The license number appearing on the paper provided by Wise from his conversation with Pate and the mechanic was Texas license PP 4537. The car was only described on the paper as a 1957 Plymouth 4-door, with no further description.(50)

The FBI interviewed Wes Wise about this allegation on December 4, 1963. At that time, Wise said the mechanic, whom he refused to identify for the FBI, claiming he did not want to reveal the identity of his source, told him the car he saw in the restaurant parking lot was a red 1957 Plymouth with the license PP 4537.(51)

In an FBI report dated December 14, 1963, Milton Love of the Dallas County Tax Office advised that the 1963 Texas license PP 4537 was issued for a 1957 Plymouth automobile in the possession of Carl Amos Mather, 4309 Colgate Street, Garland, Tex.(52) In a report dated December 14, 1963, FBI special Agent Charles T. Brown reported that he observed a 1957 Plymouth with 1963 Texas license PP 4537 parked in the driveway of the house at 4309 Colgate Street, Garland, Tex.(53) Brown reported that car was light blue over medium blue in color.(54)

Mrs. Carl A Mather was interviewed by FBI agent Charles T. Brown on December 5, 1963, at the Mather home at 4303 Colgate Street in Garland, Tex. She identified the 1957 Plymouth with Texas license PP 4537 as belonging to her and her husband.(55) Mrs. Mather told the FBI that her husband was at work on November 22, 1963, at Collins Radio, Co., in Richardson, Tex., until approximately 2 p.m., when he came by their home to the the family to the Tippit home to offer their condolences.(56) Mrs. Mather said the two families were friends.(57) According to Mrs. Mather, Carl Mather was with them at the Tippit home from about 3:30 p.m. until about 5 p.m., when he took the two Mather children home.(58) Mrs. Mather did not state in the interview which car her husband was driving that day at the time of the assassination of the Tippit shooting. No FBI report of an interview or contact with Carl Mather was located.

On December 9, 1963, Wes Wise told FBI Special Agent Brown that he could at that time reveal the identity of the person who had provided him with the information about the car and license number.(59) He identified the mechanic as T.F. White, who worked at the Mack Pate Garage at 114 West Seventh Street in Dallas.(60) Wise advised it would be permissible for the FBI to interview White to get further details of the allegation.(61)

T.F. White was interviewed by Special Agent Brown on December 13, 1963. In the interview, White said he saw a red car in the parking lot of the El Chico Restaurant at approximately 2 p.m. on November 22, 1963.(62) At the time of the interview, White said he believed the car to be a red 1961 Falcon with 1963 Texas license PP 4537.(63) White said he saw the man in the car from the side, and that when he saw pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald that night on television, he was identical with the man he had seen in the car that afternoon.(64) White said that after he saw the man sit in the car for a short time, the man left in the car at a high rate of speed, going west of Davis Street.(65)

During the interview, Special Agent Brown advised White that the car to which the license number was traced was a 1957 Plymouth that was light and medium blue in color.(66) Brown also told White that Oswald had been apprehended at approximately 2 p.m. on November 22, 1963, in the Texas Theater.(67)

According to the interview report, when confronted with those facts, White reiterated that he had correctly copied the number of the car and that after seeing the news reports of Oswald, he thought Oswald was possibly identical with the man White had seen in the car.(68)

Carl Mather and his wife were interviewed by the committee on March 28, 1978. Mather stated that his family had been close friends with the Tippits since 1958 when the two families lived on Glenfield Street in dallas.(69) The Mather family moved away to Garland, Texas, in 1961.(70) The relationship between the two families consisted of visits together to "family-type" clubs and babysitting.(71)

Mather said that on November 2, 1963, he worked all day at the Collins Radio Co. in Richardson.(72) Mather said his boss at the time at Collins was J.A. Pickford.(73) The Mathers said that they were familiar with the allegation about the car with their license tag parked in the restaurant parking area.(74) Barbara Mather said she talked to FBI agents about their car twice, but that Carl Mather was never interviewed.(75) The Mathers said they attached no further particular significance to the incident since the FBI apparently dropped the issue.(76)

During the committee interview, Barbara Mather stated that she and her husband never owned any kind of red car.(77) She stated that at the time of the assassination they owned a Ford station wagon, which was white over blue, in addition to the blue 1957 Plymouth which carried the license number reported by T.F. White.(78)

Mather described his background as including a security clearance for electronics work.(79) He has been employed with Collins Radio Co. for 21 years.(80) One assignment involved work in Brandywine, Md., at Andrews Air Force Base, where he did electronics work on then Vice President Johnson's airplane Air Force Two.(81)

Let's see here - a 1957 Plymouth, or a 1961 Ford Falcon - or both, using Mather's plates temporarily for the operation maybe? And perhaps one of these incidents is related to Vaganov?

I can see the confusion - these cars look exactly alike. What year was Vaganov's Thunderbird?

- lee

[Robert Howard]

James, I looked at the Texas Theater photo's and it appeared to me that the individual being discussed was not in any of those images. Was that your conclusion?

[Ron Ecker]

It's interesting that Vaganov's alibi at the time of the Tippit shooting was that he was changing tires on his Ford (Thunderbird).

James Earl Ray's alibi at the time of the MLK shooting was that he was having a spare tire fixed for his Ford (Mustang).

[Robert Howard]

It's interesting that Vaganov's alibi at the time of the Tippit shooting was that he was changing tires on his Ford (Thunderbird).

James Earl Ray's alibi at the time of the MLK shooting was that he was having a spare tire fixed for his Ford (Mustang).

Recently someone on the Braden thread, was also asking about the NARA link that lists all the 'remaining classified documents, I would be curious to see if there are any Vaganov documents in that category; My bet is that there are. It's not like I've never looked, but navigating the NARA JFK Collection is like navigating the rapids.

[James Richards]

What year was Vaganov's Thunderbird? (Lee Forman)

Lee,

Check out that image I posted of Vaganov earlier in this thread. In the background there is a T-Bird parked at the curb which could be red. Maybe that is Vaganov's car?

Also, just before the assassination, do you recall those reports of the guy in the red Ford who drove through an anti-Castro gathering with pro-Castro paraphenalia plastered all over it? The authorities were looking for that vehicle post assassination as one of suspicion. I recall we talked about it here some time back?

James, I looked at the Texas Theater photo's and it appeared to me that the individual being discussed was not in any of those images. Was that your conclusion? (Robert Howard)

I'm not sure, Robert. I have to admit that I found myself a little confused. Familiar territory for me I am afraid.

James

[Ed O'Hagan]

The Esquire article states that Benavides told Berendt that the red car had a white top. Vaganov's Thunderbird was a red convertible with a white top. Benavides then added that he was not sure that the car was a Ford. No year is listed for the Thunderbird. However, when Vaganov left Philadelphia for Dallas he still owed $3,309.02 for the vehicle.

[Lee Forman]

Lee,

Check out that image I posted of Vaganov earlier in this thread. In the background there is a T-Bird parked at the curb which could be red. Maybe that is Vaganov's car?

Also, just before the assassination, do you recall those reports of the guy in the red Ford who drove through an anti-Castro gathering with pro-Castro paraphenalia plastered all over it? The authorities were looking for that vehicle post assassination as one of suspicion. I recall we talked about it here some time back?

James - interesting coincidence. I had just realized that the style of the '62 [and I think '63 as well] appears to have been a radical departure from the typical T-Bird style of the 50s and early 60s. Here's an example of the '62 -- it would match pretty well with the one in background of that shot? I don't remember in the article - did they drive Vaganov to the location, or did they use two cars?

Another reason why I brought it up is because I am wondering how quickly someone would have recognized this car as a T-bird in 1963. Speculation as usual. Me - I prefer the '57.

I'll need to go back and have another look at that pro-Castro rally Ford - I think you posted that on the suspicious vehicles thread.

- lee