Neely St Questions

[Guest Tom Scully]

...Do other members subscribe to Oswald the wife beater?

P.S. Any relationship between Mahlon TOBIAS, who was the Building Manger of the ELSBETH apartments, and Dan TOBIAS who had a relationship with Jack Ruby?

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10517&relPageId=28

Mr. TOBIAS. I’ve got two boys and two girls.

Mr. JENNER. You have two boys and two girls and they are all adults and married now, I assume?

Mr. TOBIAS. That’s right.

If Mahlon was TOBIAS, Snr, then one of the boys was called Mahlon TOBIAS, Jr, so was the other son Daniel TOBIAS? Tom, can you have looksie into this, please?

Mrs. Tobias (nee Nannie Mae Turner) explained to Albert E. Jenner, Jr. of the WC that she had lived in Battle Creek, MI with her husband and had returned to Dallas 14 years prior to 1964. She was presumably from the Dallas area. There is very little on Dan Tobias, but I doubt he was related to this Mrs. Tobias or to her husband, Mahlon Forrest Tobias, Sr. Their son, Mahlon, Jr., died the year prior to the year of his father's death.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Tobias%20%22ad%20agency%22%20dallas&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=nw&psj=1#sclient=psy&hl=en&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=%22dan+Tobias%22+has+been+appointed+advertising+manager%2C+Browning-Ferris+Machinery+Co.%2C&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=%22dan+Tobias%22+dallas&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=aff20ae66cd53499

Printers' ink: Volume 251

1955 - Snippet view

DAN TOBIAS, formerly with the Dallas Times Herald, is now advertising manager. Browning- Ferris Machinery Co., Dallas.

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22Tobias+was+formerly+in+the+advertising+department+of+the+dallas*%22&btnG=Search+Books

Printers' ink: Volume 262

1958 - Snippet view

A new Dallas advertising agency, Dan Tobias Advertising, has been announced by its owner, Dan Tobias. Tobias was formerly in the advertising department of the Dallas Times Herald.

http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi

TOBIAS, MAHLON 06 Jul 1896 Jun 1977 80 75208 (Dallas, Dallas, TX) Arkansas

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=tobias&GSfn=mahlon&GSbyrel=in&GSdyrel=in&GSob=n&GRid=30661911&df=all&

Mahlon Forrest Tobias, Jr

Birth: Sep. 12, 1924

Fordyce

Dallas County

Arkansas, USA

Death: Apr. 28, 1976 Dallas Texas, USA

Buried on April 30, 1976.

His mother's maiden name was Nannie Mae Turner.

Veteran: World War II

Occupation: Salesman - Shoes

Home at death: 2226 Anniels, Dallas

Died in Oak Cliff Medical & Surgical.

Source of above information: Death Certificate

His parents both became famous by being associated with the President John F. Kennedy assassination. Both gave testimony to the Warren Commission. ("Hearings", Volume X, Pages 231 - 264)

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:1826429&id=I0073

Birth: 29 FEB 1864 in Baltimore Township, Barry Co., Michigan 1

Death: 9 AUG 1939 in Hastings, Barry County, Michigan 2

WILLIAM TOBIAS, BARRY SEPTUAGENARIAN, DIED

Hastings, Aug 12, William O. Tobias, 75, retired Hope Township farmer, died at Pennock Hospital here at 8 o'clock this morning after a short illness.

Born in Dowling, MI., Mr. Tobias was a lifelong resident of Barry County, making his home just east of Shultz. He is survived by four sons, Lyle and Mahlon, of Battle Creek, Mrs. Everett Myers, Centerville, and Mrs. Ed Traver, Hastings; one brother J. E. Tobias, of Battle Creek, and one sister Mrs. Lewis Abbot, of Battle Creek.

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/t/o/b/Philip-J-Tobias/BOOK-0001/0002-0007.html

3 William Otis Tobias 1864 - 1939

....... +Georgia Anna Johnson 1867 - 1934

....... 4 Mahlon Tobias - Unknown

.......... +Nannie May Turner Private

[Greg Parker]

Then the owner of 214 Neely Street, in his affidavit, goes on to say that George Brown Gray complained that Oswald, in the apartment above him, was beating his wife, but the only thing the owner does is call around to the apartment and invite the Oswald's to church with him and his wife (!):

http://www.aarclibra..._George_aff.pdf

Marina must have been getting beaten morning, noon and night, but no-one saw fit to complain to the Police about Oswald the "wife beating maniac."

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; there was one man that came over there one night and he told me, he said, “I think that man over there is going to kill that girl,” and I said, “I can’t do a darn thing about it.” I says, “That’s domestic troubles

and I don’t jump into a man and woman’s fighting,” which I don’t. If he hurts her bad, then I’ll hare to take it up, but not until, so he knocked a window out of the back door.

Do other members subscribe to Oswald the wife beater?

Gray/Bray himself said only that the quarreled. I think Jurek also only described it in those terms.

Was he a wife beater? I personally don't think so, and I'm not convinced it's probative of anything relevant anyway.

[Greg Parker]

but the only thing the owner does is call around to the apartment and invite the Oswald's to church with him and his wife (!):

An offer which Oswald allegedly declined on the basis that they belonged to the Russian Orthodox Church.

Maybe, if this happened at all, he was just putting George off, but Marina testified that they had to hide June's Baptism at the Russian Orthodox Church from Oswald - presumably because he would not approve of having family ties to this anti-communist congregation.

[Greg Parker]

Roger Craig FBI statement: "He stated he also noticed an automobile traveling west on Elm, which he feels was a white Nash Rambler station wagon with a luggage rack on top."

George B Bray (Gray) statement: "The Oswald's were moved into this {Neely St] apartment by a woman who was driving a white station wagon."

[Guest Tom Scully]

Lee, I recall finding very little on Linnie Mae's husband Bill Randall, and I had a lot more to go on as far as leads than I do with Mrs. Elizabeth Randall. I need to find a lead as to who her husband was.

The first thing I've found raises a question. She was manager of an apartment building, yet she lived at an address where the property, built in 1926, has a current market value estimate above $800,000 and the house next door is estimated to be worth nearly $2.1 million. It just seems odd to me.:

Elizabeth Randall 3211 Beverly Dr, Dallas

http://dfw.blockshopper.com/property/60084500690030000/3211_beverly_drive/

If I find who her husband was I'll dig up some more info and post it. I'll start with the most recent U.S. census records, of 1930.

Just now, while look into this (I think you intended Gary Taylor, not Craig?), I found that Taylor said he last saw the Oswalds "in late spring or early summer, 1963" when he went to their apartment. Taylor should be asked where that address was....

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=95649&relPageId=52

Reading Taylor's comments at the above link, I'm wondering where the details are in the record of who helped the Oswalds move their belongings to Waldo George's Neely St. property? Might be a long and fruitless search to come up with such details.... Consider also that the record always includes whose telephone the Oswalds might have made or received calls from at whatever apartment they rented. I can't find where this is covered in the case of Neely St. Were Waldo George or alleged Neely St. neighbors asked about Oswald using their phones?

Wasn't Marina nearly eight months pregnant when the record shows Oswald informed no one that he could be reached at Mary Bledsoe's? It seems quite curious that Ruth Paine did not know how or where to reach LHO during that week at Bledsoe's, if Marina suddenly went into labor or had some other complication?

On edit... Lee, your posted here,

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17593&view=findpost&p=223500 that the spelling of Randal with one L in the instance of Elizabeth or Elisabeth was a misspelling. Can you point me to where a second L was added to her name, because I've now found an Elizabeth Randal, age 29, listed in the 1930 census record in University Park, Dallas County, with a 31 year old, Texas born spouse named Geo.L Randal and a six years old daughter, Betty. In 1930 there were more than 30 households headed by a Randall and 8 headed by a Randal.

I've checked only a few Randalls of that census because I would have to click on each of the thirty listings since only the head of each household is displayed and it is a record 33 years prior to the time frame we are interested in. The links resolve into handwritten census record pages of 50 sometimes nearly illegible names on each page.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Tom Scully

[Richard Hocking]

Roger Craig FBI statement: "He stated he also noticed an automobile traveling west on Elm, which he feels was a white Nash Rambler station wagon with a luggage rack on top."

George B Bray (Gray) statement: "The Oswald's were moved into this {Neely St] apartment by a woman who was driving a white station wagon."

Excellent pickup Greg. Had not noticed that before.

Another point of corroboration for Craig's observation on Elm Street.

[William Kelly]

Roger Craig FBI statement: "He stated he also noticed an automobile traveling west on Elm, which he feels was a white Nash Rambler station wagon with a luggage rack on top."

George B Bray (Gray) statement: "The Oswald's were moved into this {Neely St] apartment by a woman who was driving a white station wagon."

Excellent pickup Greg. Had not noticed that before.

Another point of corroboration for Craig's observation on Elm Street.

[Greg Parker]

Lee,

Have browsed some of the records. He had been using the wrong Social Security Number with American Bakeries until they advised him it belonged to someone else. To compound confusion, at some stage, his employee number got mixed up with the number of a Black worker named James Johnson.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=96522&relPageId=91

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=96522&relPageId=89

It also may or may not mean anything, but the company employed a Mr Lee in Chicago whose initials happened to be O.H.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57736&relPageId=110

Edited October 27, 2011 by Greg Parker

[Greg Parker]

Lee,

Have browsed some of the records. He had been using the wrong Social Security Number with American Bakeries until they advised him it belonged to someone else. To compound confusion, at some stage, his employee number got mixed up with the number of a Black worker named James Johnson.

http://www.maryferre...22&relPageId=91

http://www.maryferre...22&relPageId=89

It also may or may not mean anything, but the company employed a Mr Lee in Chicago whose initials happened to be O.H.

http://www.maryferre...6&relPageId=110

This story is another pile of pants, Greg. Fascinating on the O. H. Lee find. Once again something stinks regarding the SS numbers.

The FBI claiming that the pay stub was found at 214 West Neely is a crock. If it was found post-assassination at Oswald's alleged former property then why the hell did the FBI ask Jackson why Oswald was in possession of it? And why would it end up on the list of possessions taken upon arrest. And why was Burt Griffin still wanting the situation clarified by the FBI more than 4 months later? It's again a case of the people doing the legwork for the Warren Commission asking the right questions, and then the people above them sinking the questions into a deep dark hole.

I'm not up on how the U.S. social security system works, especially in the 1960's, but on first glance of this evidence it would certainly appear that something incredibly dodgy was happening. I just don't know what...

Why would Rankin be stating to Marguerite that Jackson was a "close associate" of Jack Ruby? There is absolutely nothing in the record that supports this so they must have known something that we don't.

Maybe someone in the US could comment on how prevalent or unusual the situation would have been with Jackson having and using someone else's SS number. Could it for instance, happen accidentally through a mistake in administration?

Re Ruby: It's possible they got Arthur confused with at least two other Jackson's Ruby did know -- but you need to look at that as Devil's Advocate. Not sure I could buy it.

Note the FBI did not ask Jackson if he knew Ruby.

There seems very scant evidence that Jackson ever lived on Neely St except his own word.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=96522&relPageId=92

I can find nothing on the previous owner in MFF. And American Bakeries didn't seem to have any record of him living on Neely.

I have been sent contact details for JAJ if anyone is interested in talking to him. Shoot me an email.

[Ed LeDoux]

Seems the FBI in its report of 12/21 did ask him (Jackson) about Ruby.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=96522&relPageId=91

"He advised he has never know a person named LEE HARVEY OSWALD or JACK RUBY also known as JACK RUBENSTEIN. He said he has heard these names since the assassination..."

This is an amazing thread BTW.

Ed

Edited October 28, 2011 by Ed LeDoux

[Guest Tom Scully]

Beginning on this page, http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol2/page456.php much effort is expended by the WC's Jenner to encourage Neely St. related testimony from Ruth Paine. Ruth meets the LHO family at a park near their Neely St. home on 20 April and says she must have arranged the visit by communication by letter. She claims she is actually at their apartment on 24 April, and since they are packed and seem to be waiting for her to pick them up, there must have been an advance arrangement for her to come there, but she does not recall the details, and on and on. The WC questioners are trying to establish that she could have seen a seabag containing an object 40" long.....

The commissioners present seem to be intentionally making the questioning as confusing as possible. Mrs. Paine maintains the plan was for Marina to stay with her daughter indefinitely at the Neely St. apartment after LHO's departure, although all of their possessions have been packed and LHO has taken what he could carry.

[Greg Parker]

Seems the FBI in its report of 12/21 did ask him (Jackson) about Ruby.

http://www.maryferre...22&relPageId=91

"He advised he has never know a person named LEE HARVEY OSWALD or JACK RUBY also known as JACK RUBENSTEIN. He said he has heard these names since the assassination..."

This is an amazing thread BTW.

Ed

Right, Ed. My mistake.

[Greg Parker]

Greg,

I'm coming full circle. I'm beginning to suspect Oswald didn't live at Neely Street.

I'm thinking it possible that James Jackson lived there throughout the period in question.

Jackson had two kids didn't he?

Lee,

That's my memory, but haven't been able to locate the document showing it. Again going from memory, but I believe the claim was made that he vacated in about April of '62... exactly a year prior to when Oswald allegedly vacated. This really warrants more attention than I can pay it at the moment. It just seems to me that there a huge game being played with timelines and this just may be the tip of the iceberg.

IMO, the BY photo timeline is BS - the real (and only) one being taken in Minsk a year before.

The TSBD escape timeline is totally bogus.

The Tippit killing timeline is totally bogus.

THE MC timeline might also be out - with or without the real Oswald involved.

Is it just the question of the kids that has brought you around?

[Guest Tom Scully]

.......

M. Waldo (AKA M.W. AKA JIM W.) George - owner of the property:

The upstairs apartment became vacant in late January and he placed a "for rent" sign in the yard.

He went to this apartment on March 2, and his wife phoned him there to advise that a person named Oswald had phoned inquiring about apartments.

She had advised Oswald that her husband was at the W. Neely St apartment and he could go around and see him.

Oswald came around on that date and paid one month rent in advance of $60.00 which took the rent up to May 2.

On March 4, Oswald made an abusive call to Mrs George because the utilities had not been connected. George did nothing in regard to the call.

George next saw Oswald on April 1 when he collected his next rent instalment in advance.

Shortly after collecting this rent, George Gray from downstairs made a complaint that Oswald had beaten his wife.

On the 3rd or 4th of April, the Georges called on the Oswalds to invite them to attend the Gaston Ave Baptist Church. Oswald advised they belonged to the Russian Orthodox Church.

e FBI made no attempt to determine how/why the phone was still connected at the apartment since the previous tenant had vacated more than a month bef

[Thore. If Oswald paid rent up until May 2, this is another curious case of him not claiming back monies he might need and be entitled to prior to moving to NO on April 22. Contrary to this, only the gas was disconnected. The electricity was left on after the previous tenant left per Dallas P & L policy. On a related matter, wouldn't the two apartments be designated apartment "a" a"b" or "1" and "2"? and have separate meters for utilities?]

Lone Star Gas Co - Barbara Daugherty

Mrs D advised that gas was turned on at 214 on receipt of a request made by Lee H Oswald. Records did not show whether the request was in person or by phone.

The service was connected on March 4 and a letter was sent to Oswald requesting a deposit.

A $10.00 deposit was made on March 8. No further bills were paid against this account.

The bills sent were:

Mar $4.15

Apr $2.03

May $1.53 (min amt payable to keep the service connected?)

Jun $1.53

Jul $1.53

Aug $1:53

Sep $1:53

The service was disconnected on Oct 11 when the bill exceeded the deposit amount plus interest. The outstanding amount owed was $3.48.

[This tends to indicate whoever was there, be it Oswald and family, or some other, they left mid April]

Dallas Power & Light - MJ Fish

The service had been connected for a CP Cornett until Jan 16 when Cornett advised by hone he was moving.

Due to policy, the service was not disconnected at this time.

The meter was read on February 19. At that time, the meter reader reported the premises as vacant.

The meter was read again on March 20 and 36 kilowatt hours had been used. However, the meter reader once again reported the premises vacant.

The next reading was on April 19 and reflected a usage of 66 kilowatt hours. The premises this time were reported as occupied.

On April 24, a letter was sent to the address requesting the new occupant to make a deposit. No response was received.

On May 1, a company representative paid a visit to the address and the letter sent on Apr 24 was seen still sitting in the letter box.

As a result of the above, a cut off order was issued for electricity services on May 1, with the services duly cut the next day

Fish advised he had made a hand written note in a file on March 29, that 214 W Neely was occupied by Lee Harvey Oswald.

He was unable to say where or how he got that information. It may however, have come from Gray/Bray as W Waldo George thought Gray/Bray worked at that company.

Dallas Power & Light received no payment for electrical services at the apartment between Jan 16 and May 2 when it was cut......

Oswald was portrayed as an avid reader. The family is presented to be in economic circumstances necessitating that they prepare and consume all or almost all meals at home. They rely on mass transit, the wife does not work and stays home and cares for their small child. For a period near Oswald's departure from Dallas, the WC claimed he was unemployed.

The above details seem to pin this trio down to a near homebound existence. An single, incandescent, 75 watt light bulb illuminated just seven hours per day consumes 15.9 kw/hours each month.

A refrigerator of smaller than average size for that time, but much larger than a 2.3 cubic ft. college dorm sized unit can probably be assumed to have been in the Neely St. apartment kitchen.

A woman and a small child certainly consume hot water, heated by gas or electricity. According to this household electrical consumption info, a small refrigerator would be expected to consume 40 to 50 kh/hours per month, and a model manufactured in the 1950's might consume more energy than a model of similar size made 45 years later.

Even coming recently from living in the more modest conditions and with more frugal habits of Soviet Union everyday life, I do not believe the meager gas charges and electricity consumption data Greg has posted, would establish that a couple with a small child inhabited that apartment during any thirty day period matched up with that energy usage data. The data does not reflect the energy required for cooking and heating water for bathing, or for illumination of an apartment inhabited by those three people during spring season months, especially considering they had to be the residence most of the time, taking most or all meals there.

[Greg Parker]

Greg and other members

What are your thoughts on Oswald being portrayed as a "wife beater"? Do you think he really beat Marina?

Lee, sorry - had forgotten about this.

There is another report of it from NO.

http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=994097

How Gladys would go as a witness is anyone's guess since she obviously had some psych issues going on. She did mention a lot of the same things that other neighbors mentioned, yet this (the beatings) was not mentioned by anyone else.

Is it possible Oswald beat Marina? Yes, I think it is at least possible. There was a different mindset back then and a lot of people would automatically assume the wife "deserved" it. It's also possible that the FBI put those words into the mouth of a mentally ill witness - which would at least explain why she is in sync with other neighbors regarding other Oswald observations but totally out of sync on this one item.

Another oddity is that the FBI report has her saying she heard the name "Haydel" mentioned during a conversation between Oswald and Stuckey. Was this also an insertion into the account of a fallible or frail witness? Evidence that Oswald did use the name? Evidence that there was another person using that name?

We all know people who beat their wives are in a lowest-of-the-low category within society and I was wondering what the actual evidence is that domestic violence took place between Lee and Marina.

According to the record Lee was beating Marina at 602 Elsbeth according to the owner of the property (JUREK) as he had complaints from other residents and claims in his statement that the Building Supervisor also knew about this.

Then the owner of 214 Neely Street, in his affidavit, goes on to say that George Brown Gray complained that Oswald, in the apartment above him, was beating his wife, but the only thing the owner does is call around to the apartment and invite the Oswald's to church with him and his wife (!):

http://www.aarclibra..._George_aff.pdf

Marina must have been getting beaten morning, noon and night, but no-one saw fit to complain to the Police about Oswald the "wife beating maniac."

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; there was one man that came over there one night and he told me, he said, "I think that man over there is going to kill that girl," and I said, "I can't do a darn thing about it." I says, "That's domestic troubles

and I don't jump into a man and woman's fighting," which I don't. If he hurts her bad, then I'll hare to take it up, but not until, so he knocked a window out of the back door.

Do other members subscribe to Oswald the wife beater?

P.S. Any relationship between Mahlon TOBIAS, who was the Building Manger of the ELSBETH apartments, and Dan TOBIAS who had a relationship with Jack Ruby?

http://www.maryferre...17&relPageId=28

Mr. TOBIAS. I've got two boys and two girls.

Mr. JENNER. You have two boys and two girls and they are all adults and married now, I assume?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.

If Mahlon was TOBIAS, Snr, then one of the boys was called Mahlon TOBIAS, Jr, so was the other son Daniel TOBIAS? Tom, can you have looksie into this, please?

Edited October 31, 2011 by Greg Parker