Reopening of the JFK Forum

[David G. Healy]

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The SBT has a pedigree that is seemingly zillions of pages long, what is your basis? 2 shooters form the rear and 2 shooters from the front? When did each of those shots happen? is that scenario just a guess? An educated guess? A WAG or a SWAG?

Anything other than a SBT, aka LHO did it all by his lonesome, would lead to conspiracy and that, would lead to upheaval, possibly anarchy. I believe Earl Warren knew that and chose the easier, softer way out!

If you're going to win the argument SBT vs. something else, you have to find some proof to support the something else.

Here's your problem Bill, Like DVP you expect debate where there is none, nor will any argument happen. The SBT was dead on arrival in 1964. The entire Warren Commission Report failed and failed miserably. Where have you guys been for the past 40 years? Staging faux arguments sounds about right.

Edited August 18, 2013 by David G. Healy

[Bill Charleston]

Here's your problem Bill, Like DVP you expect debate where there is none, nor will any argument happen. The SBT was dead on arrival in 1964. The entire Warren Commission Report failed and failed miserably. Where have you guys been for the past 40 years? Staging faux arguments sounds about right.

David, I am not looking for an argument, I'm looking for agreement: The ultimate goal is to show how to prove what happened during the shooting, not argue about what did not happen.

1. Many witnesses observed many things that contradict conclusions of the Warren Commission. That establishes a reasonable basis to assume the US Gov't forged evidence to hide the truth. That does NOT prove anything, it is just a way of looking at the piles of JFK evidence.

2. Because the US Gov't likely lied and forged evidence, it is reasonable to regard ANYTHING the US Gov't provided as an explanation as suspect.

Here is the next point:

3. Evidence that would show/prove what actually happened during the shooting would likely have been suppressed or attacked by the US Government and it's supporters. If information does not support a lone gunman who fired three approximately equally spaced shots, then according to the US Gov't and the LN'ers, it can not be correct and therefore, it must be ignored or even viciously attacked if necessary.

FOR EXAMPLE: There is a significant number of witnesses who describe the last two shots in the same way this witness does. The US Gov't smugly explained away what these witnesses say they heard and virtually everyone who says anything that differs from the three equally spaced shot scenario is ignored. I use

JFK Assassination Witness Patricia Ann Donaldson as one of many witnesses who describe the last two shots they heard with the same or similar description.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NNcYG-m08g&list=PL1AA9C5630AAAF39C

This description by Donaldson does not prove anything but it lays another basis for proving what happened during the shooting.

[David G. Healy]

Here's your problem Bill, Like DVP you expect debate where there is none, nor will any argument happen. The SBT was dead on arrival in 1964. The entire Warren Commission Report failed and failed miserably. Where have you guys been for the past 40 years? Staging faux arguments sounds about right.

David, I am not looking for an argument, I'm looking for agreement: The ultimate goal is to show how to prove what happened during the shooting, not argue about what did not happen.

...

Then 100% of our focus should be on the medical evidence, there is no wiggle room, nor room for debate. Especially if one is looking to prove, a conspiracy murdered JFK!

Obviously you will do and pursue what you feel best. However, the door is closing on case debate and dumb JFK forum arguments that go absolutely no where...

[Bill Charleston]

Here's your problem Bill, Like DVP you expect debate where there is none, nor will any argument happen. The SBT was dead on arrival in 1964. The entire Warren Commission Report failed and failed miserably. Where have you guys been for the past 40 years? Staging faux arguments sounds about right.

David, I am not looking for an argument, I'm looking for agreement: The ultimate goal is to show how to prove what happened during the shooting, not argue about what did not happen.

...

Then 100% of our focus should be on the medical evidence, there is no wiggle room, nor room for debate. Especially if one is looking to prove, a conspiracy murdered JFK!

Obviously you will do and pursue what you feel best. However, the door is closing on case debate and dumb JFK forum arguments that go absolutely no where...

David Lifton argued with me one time that the JFK medical evidence is the key to solving the crime and proving conspiracy. I strongly disagreed One of the three things I wrote previously on this thread implied that anything the US Government could touch or control is suspect. There is little doubt that a significant amount of the medical evidence has been forged by the government to show that a lone gunman that was located behind and above JFK fired only three shots. If you are going to use forged evidence to prove something, you are going to find yourself in a very deep hole with Vince Bugliosi.

Here is another witness who says the last two shots were fired BANG-BANG, or BAM-BAM or two shots almost on top of each other, or the sound of one had not stopped before she heard the next one. If you can explain/prove to me why these witnesses heard echoes and not two separate shots, please proceed. Otherwise, watch and you are going to learn how to PROVE that a conspiracy killed JFK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8H_DaL_tQk

If you listen starting at 5:30 of this youtube video with Lee Bowers, you will see him ALSO show that he heard the last two shots fired a split second apart. The two witnesses I have shown, Lee Bowers and Patrica Ann Donaldson, probably never knew each other, probably had no connection other than they both were in Dealey Plaza during the shooting. But they both indicated that they heard that the last two shots were fired a split second apart.

I can show many more witnesses who indicated that the last two shots were fired BANG-BANG but that would't prove anything. The US Government shut down this key bit of information by saying these witnesses heard echoes, not two separate shots. The medical evidence does not directly provide clues how to resolve this dilemma but other evidence does.

[Bill Charleston]

If you're going to win the argument SBT vs. something else, you have to find some proof to support the something else.

Indeed.

And then there's the "missing bullets" problem that no conspiracy theorist ever wants to talk about.

Is it truly "reasonable" to toss the Single-Bullet Theory into the trash can while at the same time embracing a theory that has JFK and Connally being hit by THREE separate bullets (as nearly all CTers believe, since those CTers insist that JFK's throat wound was an entry wound)? And then BOTH bullets that entered (but never exited) JFK just....vanished? Silly.

Single-Bullet-Theory.blogspot.com

[End Off-Topic Post.]

Let's just agree to rename the SBT to the SBL- the single bullet lie.

Be patient, I will show you how to PROVE that a conspiracy killed JFK. I will show you WHY some of the significant clues have been buried by vicious attacks and lies. The US Government has a license to lie and they do. Now to prove to you these statements are true......

[Bill Charleston]

That in my humble opinion is nonsense. There is enough evidence right this second to prove, conspiracy murdered JFK.

With all due respect, is your opinion the point? Or is demonstrating the truth so convincingly by working together that the WC defenders pack up shop and go home what we are working toward?

David's point may be that anyone who has looked at the available information believes that there is sufficient evidence to show that the SBT (Single Bullet Theory) did not happen. For example, when you look at the pictures of the back of JFK's shirt and jacket, there is no way the bullet went up to exit JFK's neck and then down to hit Connally in the back. There are many things that appear to show the lone gunman theory is not correct. The discussions have been reduced to the SBT is correct with the counter argument is that no it is not. It is analogous to two kids yelling yes it is, no it isn't.

To move the argument forward, it is going to be necessary to show what actually happened during the shooting. Do you have any idea what happened if the SBT is not correct?

There is no need to be concerned at all. There is no "SBT". There are merely different scenarios that the LNTs have tried to play a shell game with.

I discuss this in my article "The Pretty Pig's Saturday Night"'

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2372&hl=pretty+pig%27s+saturday+night

I enjoyed reading the pretty pig and I am somewhat familiar with your limo work. Whether the US Government was destroying Secret Service records or altering the limo as a crime scene, it is apparent there is information that we do not know and there are probably people out there that do not want us to know it.

Only by picking evidence and information the US Government did not and could not have altered can we arrive at the truth. I have listened to the press interview witnesses for decades and frequently when a witness says something that is really significant to solving the case, the press typically ignores it and moves on. Witnesses make mistakes and you can not believe everything they say but as any investigator knows, you have to look at the pjysical evidence and bounce that against what the witnesses say they saw and heard. When you get things to match up, then you can say BINGO!

I have shown a couple of things that any reasonable person should agree with:

1. The US Gov't forged evidence and lied. I think we clearly agree on that.

2. To solve the case, only evidence the US Government could not have altered or forged can be used.

I have shown that a couple of witnesses who said the last two shots were fired a split second apart, there are many more. Another thing stated is that there are numerous witnesses who saw a large hole in the back of JFK's head. All of this information is significant when you finally try to put it all together. If I throw out too much at once, it goes right by the typical JFK fan and they go into a state similar to ventricular fibrillation. I have already seen it here when it was said DUMB JFK arguments. It is a fact that many witnesses said that.there was a massive wound in the right rear of JFK's head AND that many other Dealey Plaza witnesses said that the last two shots were BANG-BANG.

[David G. Healy]

...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8H_DaL_tQk

If you listen starting at 5:30 of this youtube video with Lee Bowers, you will see him ALSO show that he heard the last two shots fired a split second apart. The two witnesses I have shown, Lee Bowers and Patrica Ann Donaldson, probably never knew each other, probably had no connection other than they both were in Dealey Plaza during the shooting. But they both indicated that they heard that the last two shots were fired a split second apart.

...

Then you have enough ancillary evidence to prove a conspiracy murder JFK, Bill. Go with it! All we need! Just the same, I'll stick with medical evidence and medical experts.

[Mark Knight]

I'm going to hijack this thread back to the original topic...which was the reopening of the forum.

John Simkin, when you closed the forum, I thought you were doing the wrong thing.

I stand corrected.

Some of the forum members, and some of the moderators, actually NEEDED a "time-out." I think that most of the posts contain better arguments, and the moderators keeping things relatively peaceful is a much-needed improvement.

[Bill Charleston]

...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8H_DaL_tQk

If you listen starting at 5:30 of this youtube video with Lee Bowers, you will see him ALSO show that he heard the last two shots fired a split second apart. The two witnesses I have shown, Lee Bowers and Patrica Ann Donaldson, probably never knew each other, probably had no connection other than they both were in Dealey Plaza during the shooting. But they both indicated that they heard that the last two shots were fired a split second apart.

...

Then you have enough ancillary evidence to prove a conspiracy murder JFK, Bill. Go with it! All we need! Just the same, I'll stick with medical evidence and medical experts.

I opened another thread entitled "solving the JFK assassination shooting mystery." I have seen MANY people who consider the common timing between the Z film and the audio evidence a coincidence and not proof of conspiracy but statistically, that argument is not reasonable. The HSCA audio experts did not guess times in the Zapruder film that were not even identified in 1978. The only reasonable explanation for the common times between shots is that the audio evidence does have the sounds of the shots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NfgTEi12p0

[Bill Charleston]

That in my humble opinion is nonsense. There is enough evidence right this second to prove, conspiracy murdered JFK.

With all due respect, is your opinion the point? Or is demonstrating the truth so convincingly by working together that the WC defenders pack up shop and go home what we are working toward?

David's point may be that anyone who has looked at the available information believes that there is sufficient evidence to show that the SBT (Single Bullet Theory) did not happen. For example, when you look at the pictures of the back of JFK's shirt and jacket, there is no way the bullet went up to exit JFK's neck and then down to hit Connally in the back. There are many things that appear to show the lone gunman theory is not correct. The discussions have been reduced to the SBT is correct with the counter argument is that no it is not. It is analogous to two kids yelling yes it is, no it isn't.

To move the argument forward, it is going to be necessary to show what actually happened during the shooting. Do you have any idea what happened if the SBT is not correct?

There is no need to be concerned at all. There is no "SBT". There are merely different scenarios that the LNTs have tried to play a shell game with.

I discuss this in my article "The Pretty Pig's Saturday Night"'

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2372&hl=pretty+pig%27s+saturday+night

The SBT did not happen so what did happen? This video shows the answer. Many, and I mean many, do not consider this proof that a conspiracy killed JFK. I show enough IMHO in the YOUTUBE video that it is consistent with what one of the best witnesses said happen, and those who said BANG-BANG. As with any investigation, not everything a witness says is correct but in this case, it is consistent with what Connally said happened. Virtually none of his observations have ever been consistent with the SBT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NfgTEi12p0

I opened a new thread with thiat YOUTUBE link entitled "solving the JFK assassination."

[Paul Trejo]

Many thanks, John. Very well done.

--Paul

[Paul Trejo]

Let's just agree to rename the SBT to the SBL- the single bullet lie.

Be patient, I will show you how to PROVE that a conspiracy killed JFK. I will show you WHY some of the significant clues have been buried by vicious attacks and lies. The US Government has a license to lie and they do...

No, Bill, this really goes too far, IMHO.

The video that you shared is a fairly good one -- it demonstrates fairly well that Governor Connally was hit with the final bullet, not JFK.

But the problem with that video (and its author) is that he glibly accuses the HSCA of LYING when it made the mistake of reporting that the final bullet hit JFK.

It is just as simple to say that the HSCA was MISTAKEN. That is just as effective and still promotes the point of the video, i.e. that Governor Connally was hit with the final bullet, not JFK.

But the author uses the word LIE to make a POLITICAL POINT. (However vague.)

Nor did the US Government mince many words about it, because Earl Warren plainly said that the full TRUTH about Lee Harvey Oswald would not be told for 75 years. So, the US Government already admitted to a WITHHOLD. Yet it should be obvious that a WITHHOLD is not necessarily the same as a LIE.

The US Government gave the reason for the WITHHOLD -- namely -- National Security. During the years of the Cold War, there may have been excellebnt reasons for that US Government decision.

Now that the Cold War is over (because the USSR has fallen) the 75 year deferrment of the TRUTH can be relaxed, so that now, with the JFK Information Act, we can look forward to the release in the year 2017 of all JFK related documents formerly withheld as Top Secret.

Then (and only then) will we be able to truly assess the National Security impact of the decision by Earl Warren and the LBJ Administration to withhold many of the key facts about Lee Harvey Oswald for so long.

In summary -- nearly nobody believes in the SBT anymore. That's beating a dead horse around here. But calling it a LIE, instead of a politically necessary and temporary WITHHOLD is merely to play politics.

So I stil believe that a ban on name-calling on this Forum remains well-thought and proper.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited August 28, 2014 by Paul Trejo