Who saw Baker enter the TSBD?

[Robert Prudhomme]

I am sure this thread will raise howls of outrage, as soon as you all are aware of what it is about, but that is just how things have to be. Of course, everyone knows that the Malcolm Couch film shows Baker running into the TSBD but, does it? The version of the Couch film I viewed shows Baker parking his motorcycle and running toward the TSBD steps but he doesn't actually get to the steps. We are left to draw the conclusion, from his and Truly's evidence, that the two of them ran into the building together.

Who saw them enter the TSBD? There is one person who would have been standing directly in their way, and that is Buell Wesley Frazier. Let's see what he had to say about it:

"Mr. BALL - Were you able to see the President, could you still see the President's car when you heard the first sound?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass and I couldn't see any of it because people were standing up there in my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything.
Mr. BALL - You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was.
Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL - A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right."

Not only did Frazier not see a motorcycle cop in a white helmet go by him on the top of the steps, he opens the possibility of Shelley and Lovelady still being on the steps of the TSBD, when they should be 25 steps down the Elm St. extension. It was from this vantage point they supposedly looked back (after someone hollered) and saw Truly and Baker entering the TSBD. Considering how quickly Baker was off his motorcycle and running up Elm St., I fail to see how Shelley and Lovelady managed to get off the steps and down the street so quickly.

Now, after polling the membership, it seems the only people that were on the 1st floor of the TSBD, and saw Truly and Baker heading for the stairs and elevator, were Oswald, supposedly in a storage closet near the front entrance, and Eddie Piper, at the coffee machine towards the NW corner of the 1st floor. Surely, Mr. Piper must have seen Baker. Here is what he would have been looking at, or at least something similar to this:

Granted, Baker left his motorcycle outside but, the uniform and helmet are quite distinctive, aren't they? Let's see what Eddie Piper had to say.

"Mr. BALL. You mentioned you saw Truly?

Mr. PIPER. I don’t know whether it was a policeman or FBI or who it was, but another fellow was with him.

Mr. BALL. And where were you?

Mr. PIPER. Standing right there where they make coffee."

Look at the photo above, and tell me how Piper could mistake this for an FBI agent unless, of course, the man with Truly wasn't wearing a uniform such as this.

Did Piper have bad vision? This composite photo of Piper shows him to be on in age, and wearing corrective glasses, but no mention is made of failing vision. Besides, this part of his testimony tells us his vision was quite good, as he was able to see things out in front of the TSBD from almost the back corner.

"Mr. PIPER. I heard one shot, and then the next shot went off-the one that shot him and I got on up and went on back, back where they make coffee at the end of the counter where I could see what happened and before I could get there, the third shot went off, and I seen the people all running and in a few minutes someone came in the building, and I looked up and it was the bossman and a policeman or someone."

Even if Baker took his helmet off, he would be carrying it in his hand, and it would still be conspicuous. However, it did not seem the norm for Dallas motorcycle cops to have removed their helmets in public. All the motorcycle cops photographed walking in front of the TSBD seemed to be wearing theirs, and Bonnie Ray Williams testified to the WC that he saw a helmeted police officer arrive on the 5th floor, via the elevator.

"Mr. BALL. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white helmet.
Mr. BALL. What did he
Mr. WILLIAMS. He just came around, and around to the elevator.
Mr. BALL. Which elevator?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the east elevator.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody with him?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not.
Mr. BALL. You were only able to see the top of his helmet?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You could only see the top of his helmet
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the only thing I saw about it."

Note that Williams was only able to see the top of the helmet, and did not see anyone with the helmeted officer. It might still be possible for Williams' testimony to support the arrival of Baker on the 5th floor, except for one small detail. It seems that Williams established, with the two FBI agents, that this helmeted officer arrived on the elevator, not the stairs.

From the WC testimony of Roy Truly:

"Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly.
Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?
All right.
You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497.
What did you see or hear the officer say or do?
Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor."

It seems Bonnie Ray Williams must have seen a different motorcycle cop than the one accompanying Roy Truly.

I will give you the WC testimony of one more eyewitness, present on the steps of the TSBD after the assassination. From the WC testimony of Joe Molina:

"Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards."

Was Baker invisible?

Edited March 22, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Greg Parker]

Piper didn't see anyone. He wasn't where he claimed to be.

Your point about not recalling if Truly was with a cop or a FBI agent is spot on. They called him back to try and get his story straightened out - to THEIR liking.

The only person who claimed to see Piper was Shelley. And Shelley saw Piper running toward the coffee area well after Piper said he did. Which means Piper may have been coming from any where in the building.

West was at his work station/coffee making area. Or claimed to be. No one saw him - including Piper. And he saw no one. Including Piper.

If you go back to the very first statements made by Truly and Campbell, the only person noticed on the first floor when they entered was Oswald. That got dropped from the-evolving narrative quicker than a girlfriend in the Ozarks as soon as the guy finds out they aren't related after all.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Greg Parker

[Robert Prudhomme]

Shelley was all over the place. His statement and WC testimony are miles apart. If we follow his WC testimony, he and Lovelady remained on the steps of the TSBD for 3-4 minutes, heard the news of the assassination from Gloria Calvary (who loitered down by the Stemmons Freeway sign for some time before returning to the TSBD steps), then went for a stroll to the rail yard with Billy Lovelady before re-entering the TSBD by the rear door. Anything he has to say about Eddie Piper is old news.

Could it be that Baker did not enter the TSBD, or at least not by the front door?

Edited March 22, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Greg Parker]

Shelley was all over the place. His statement and WC testimony are miles apart. If we follow his WC testimony, he and Lovelady remained on the steps of the TSBD for 3-4 minutes, heard the news of the assassination from Gloria Calvary (who loitered down by the Stemmons Freeway sign for some time before returning to the TSBD steps), then went for a stroll to the rail yard with Billy Lovelady before re-entering the TSBD by the rear door. Anything he has to say about Eddie Piper is old news.

Could it be that Baker did not enter the TSBD, or at least not by the front door?

The possibility is there that Shelley was trying to support Piper's statement, and didn't see Piper in the circumstances described at all.

Another thing on Piper. If that is him in the "uniform" of a porter/cleaner in those photos, I find it all a bit confusing. When the FBI took photos of him, they did so during working hours at the TSBD. He was wearing no such uniform in those. And when asked if he wore a similar shirt as described by Rowland, all he could think of to say was he owned no such shirt. Surely that's a perfect opportunity to say he usually wears a khaki uniform and cap to work, and did so on the day the president was shot?

Edited March 22, 2015 by Greg Parker

[Robert Prudhomme]

Greg

Have I missed anything from the eyewitnesses on the TSBD Steps? Is there anyone who testified to seeing Baker run up the steps and enter the TSBD?

[Chris Davidson]

Robert,

1.Baker dismounts from motorcycle.

2.Lovelady/Shelley exit stairs.

3.Weigman starts his run down the knoll.

You can use these three actions as a sync point. Close enough.

chris

[Robert Prudhomme]

From the Warren Commission testimony of Bill Shelley:

"Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes."

From the Warren Commission testimony of Billy Lovelady:

"Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes."

"Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.
Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes."

Considering Officer Baker had parked his motorcycle 45 feet from the steps of the TSBD, and run toward them immediately after the last shot, and considering that Gloria Calvary was standing down by the Stemmons Freeway sign, and did not come back up to the TSBD steps for several minutes, and considering that, according to their testimonies, neither Shelley or Lovelady left the steps until she arrived at the steps with news of the assassination, just how on earth do you arrive at a "sync point" Chris?

Both men are clearly lying through their teeth.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Chris Davidson]

From the Warren Commission testimony of Bill Shelley:

"Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.

Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes."

From the Warren Commission testimony of Billy Lovelady:

"Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.

Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.

Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.

Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes."

"Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

Mr. BALL - How many steps?

Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.

Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes."

Considering Officer Baker had parked his motorcycle 45 feet from the steps of the TSBD, and run toward them immediately after the last shot, and considering that Gloria Calvary was standing down by the Stemmons Freeway sign, and did not come back up to the TSBD steps for several minutes, and considering that, according to their testimonies, neither Shelley or Lovelady left the steps until she arrived at the steps with news of the assassination, just how on earth do you arrive at a "sync point" Chris?

Both men are clearly lying through their teeth.

Robert,

In conjunction with Darnell/Couch, use Weigman's entire film as a clock for Lovelady's location.

Start with Altgen's Z255 if necessary.

chris

[Robert Prudhomme]

Just out of curiosity, what does all of this have to do with Baker entering the TSBD? His testimony regarding confronting Oswald on the 2nd floor is one of the cornerstones of the WCR, and I cannot seem to find any witnesses who saw him going into the TSBD.

Would everyone mind addressing this first?

Edited March 22, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

In case I have not made myself clear enough, there seems to be an awful lot of people who should have seen a helmeted motorcycle cop entering the front of the TSBD and who, for some strange reason, have no memory of seeing him.

Until I see some corroborating evidence, I must assume Baker's story is, in part, fabricated.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi Lee

I've been going through the links in your post again, and am picking up details I missed before. Starting with the first

http://texashistory....1/?q=joe molina

I see it states that Molina claimed he was out on the steps, viewing the motorcade, with a number of people, including Eddie Piper. Is this an FBI report? Once again, we have a report written in the 3rd person, and potentially unverified, but that may work in our favour this time.

As Piper testified to being inside the TSBD, on the 1st floor, at the time of the assassination, this report is in direct contradiction to that report, and means that either Mr. Piper told an untruth to the WC, in order to bolster the Baker/ Truly story, or the author of this report told the untruth, for reasons I cannot seem to fathom.

It may very well turn out to be the truth is in this report, and Piper was out front on the steps.

Unless someone comes up with something I haven't seen yet, I am almost convinced Marion Baker did NOT enter the TSBD by the front entrance, and that not only was the 2nd storey confrontation with Oswald concocted, the entire Baker/Truly ascent to the 7th floor might have been concocted, or at least the version of it we are presented.

[Thomas Graves]

Hi Lee

I've been going through the links in your post again, and am picking up details I missed before. Starting with the first

http://texashistory....1/?q=joe molina

I see it states that Molina claimed he was out on the steps, viewing the motorcade, with a number of people, including Eddie Piper. Is this an FBI report? Once again, we have a report written in the 3rd person, and potentially unverified, but that may work in our favour this time.

As Piper testified to being inside the TSBD, on the 1st floor, at the time of the assassination, this report is in direct contradiction to that report, and means that either Mr. Piper told an untruth to the WC, in order to bolster the Baker/ Truly story, or the author of this report told the untruth, for reasons I cannot seem to fathom.

It may very well turn out to be the truth is in this report, and Piper was out front on the steps.

Unless someone comes up with something I haven't seen yet, I am almost convinced Marion Baker did NOT enter the TSBD by the front entrance, and that not only was the 2nd storey confrontation with Oswald concocted, the entire Baker/Truly ascent to the 7th floor might have been concocted, or at least the version of it we are presented.

Bob,

Do you think Baker can be seen running towards the front steps of the TSBD in Darnell / Couch ?

Or is that a different motorcycle policeman?

If it is Baker, do you think he altered his course and entered the TSBD through another door?

Or did he not enter the TSBD at all?

--Tommy

Edited March 24, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Thomas

Two excellent questions (the last two), and if I had the answers to them, I would likely be a wealthy man.

I am somewhat baffled by the WC testimonies of witnesses who were standing on the steps of the TSBD. On one hand, it is glaringly evident many of them told vastly different stories to the WC than what was said in their early statements. Naturally, we assume they were coerced into these stories by the perpetrators of the coverup.

And then we get to Baker entering the TSBD with Truly, and suddenly the only witnesses who can recall seeing Truly and Baker going up the front steps are Lovelady and Shelley. And they claim to have witnessed this from a place, according to the time lines in their testimonies, it was impossible for them to be in.

If we were the conspirators of the coverup, wouldn't we have coached Frazier, Molina and several others on the steps to testify to seeing a white helmeted motorcycle cop go past them on the steps? Yet they saw no cop.

Something is desperately wrong with everything we are told happened on those steps that day. I believe the answer is in the statements and testimonies, and it is just a matter of piecing it all together.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

"Do you think Baker can be seen running towards the front steps of the TSBD in Darnell / Couch (going from memory here) ?

Or is that a different motorcycle policeman?"

If not Baker, then it is some other policeman, but the timing is correct, as we see the motorcade go from a stop to rolling again immediately after Baker runs toward the stairs.

Baker was supposed to be a slightly heavy set man, and I've always felt the running cop in the Couch film looked just a little too lean, but that could just be the perspective of the film.

[Robert Prudhomme]

It is all a bit odd. It may be that the agent writing the report confused Commerce and Elm, as one street is basically a mirror of the other, and further shows his confusion by accidentally calling Molina Truly. As the agent is describing what appears to be a series of events performed by Molina, suddenly saying Truly remained on the 1st floor looks very out of place.