Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Brad Milch]

There seems to be a 'lull' in the action of this thread at the moment, so I'd like to slip this in for the discussion 'food table' for possible consideration at some point later down the road that this thread takes:

After absorbing the colossal amount of info contained in this thread, I now suspect the DPD either knew PM was LHO or took what he was telling Captain Fritz about being "outside with Shelley" & transferred the Dr. Pepper bottle eventually found on the TSBD entrance steps to the 6th floor. Especially if DPD knew or suspected Lee Oswald's prints were on the bottle. Lying about where the bottle was really found (TSBD entrance steps) would place Oswald near the sniper's nest IMHO.

I also wonder if the wadded up paper bag visible next to the Dr. Pepper bottle in the William Allen photos also walked itself upstairs to the 6th floor of the TSBD along with the Dr. Pepper bottle with PM's prints on it and became the remnants of a chicken lunch the public was told had been found near the sniper's nest.

Come to think of it, I've not seen any photos of the remains of the 'chicken lunch' allegedly found on the 6th floor, have you? I know DNA testing didn't exist in 1963, but the bones could have been examined for teeth bite marks. LHO was already in custody, a dentist could have easily made the comparison then & there. Had the lunch remains been preserved, DNA could be pulled from the remains of it, considering it met the mouth of whoever consumed it.

What happened to the Dr. Pepper bottle seen handled by the DPD detective in the Allen photos? The detective wouldn't be wasting his time on it if the bottle wasn't destined to become part of the chain of evidence, would he?

The bottle serves a dual purpose: PM = LHO could use it for an alibi that PM = LHO wasn't in the sniper's nest during the shooting & DPD could use the bottle to place PM = LHO in or near the snipers nest by claiming they found it there. DPD could also use the bottle to claim LHO left by the TSBD front entrance & left the bottle there as he was leaving. I suspect the lunchroom encounter story centers around that bottle. The fact that the 2nd floor lunchroom contained a Coke machine doesn't sway me that LHO bought a Coke there; I've seen hundreds of Coke machines in my life that contained a variety of soft drink brands (including Dr. Pepper). The lunch room encounter is to get PM = LHO INSIDE the building, not outside it IMHO.

Assuming PM = LHO & LHO's prints are on a soft drink bottle PM seems to be holding in the Darnell-Couch-Wiegman films combo & a Dr. Pepper bottle can be seen in several William Allen photos at the TSBD entrance, the time of day the Allen photos were taken in comparison to when LHO was arrested become becomes important for several reasons & raises the issue of why didn't DPD enter the Dr. Pepper bottle into evidence if PM = LHO's prints were on the bottle?

It seems to me that if PM = LHO, LHO left evidence that he was not in the sniper's nest at the time of the shooting not only in his image captured in the Darnell, Couch & Wiegman films, but also on the soft drink bottle & remains of lunch contents in the paper bag; both of which disappeared from the chain of evidence. They vanished for a reason that was not helpful to DPD in building a case against LHO. A soft drink bottle with LHO's prints on it places him wherever police claim they found that bottle.

Just sayin'....

BM

PS: PM = LHO looks like a rolled up long sleeve shirt to me, but I wasn't there...At one point it looked to me like PM = LHO was sitting on something (box or chair perhaps) because he looked shorter than the others near him (I tossed that in just in case another poll gets started).....

Edited April 1, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Thomas Graves]

Thomas,

This is very impressive, especially when using Powerpoint rather than Photoshop and/or AfterEffects. Well done!!!

Whoever this person, they clearly have a short sleeve shirt on.

Gimp 2.8 suggests this figure cannot be Oswald, the shirt is far too tidy and appears closed from about the upper chest.

An excellent piece of image adjustment.

James.

James,

I think you meant to congratulate Robert P., not me.

I'm the fly in the ointment here. I'm the spanner in the works.

I'm arguing that Prayer Man is wearing a long sleeved shirt with the sleeves rolled down.

I believe that in the bottom photograph, the sleeve covering his right forearm is in the sun or perhaps a penumbra-like shadow (partial shade), making it appear to be lighter-colored in comparison to the rest of his shirt which is in the shade.

I believe his right sleeve is not rolled up, but it is a few inches short of his wrist.

So, James, I disagree with your assessment that the person is "clearly" wearing a short sleeve shirt.

If the person was wearing a short sleeved shirt, he had very hairy arms. And the hair stopped a few inches from his wrist.

I think Prayer Man might be Billy Lovelady wearing his long sleeved, mostly-red "plaid" shirt with the sleeves rolled down.

Note the sunlight, direct or indirect, on his right elbow and on his right side below his arm:

Respectfully,

--Tommy

Before we started talking about how tall Prayer Man was and which step he was standing on, we were talking about whether or not he was wearing a long sleeved shirt.

.

edited and bumped

Edited April 1, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Ray Mitcham]

Just for information, I have had this from the TSBD re the heights of the entrance steps.

Top three steps are 7 1/4' high

next is 7 1/8'

Next is 7 1/4"

Nerxt 7 1/8"

and the bottom riser is 6 3/4"

Total of 50" from street level to top step.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Ray Mitcham

[Thomas Graves]

Just for information, I have had this from the TSBD re the heights of the entrance steps.

Top three steps are 7 1/4' high

next is 7 1/8'

Next is 7 1/4"

Next 7 1/8"

and the bottom riser is 6 3/4"

Total of 50" from street level to top step.

Ray,

Just looking at the photographs, it's hard to believe that there is only a 4'2" difference between street (sidewalk?) level and top of the step.

Respectfully,

--Tommy

Edited April 3, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Greg Parker]

Just for information, I have had this from the TSBD re the heights of the entrance steps.

Top three steps are 7 1/4' high

next is 7 1/8'

Next is 7 1/4"

Next 7 1/8"

and the bottom riser is 6 3/4"

Total of 50" from street level to top step.

Ray,

Just looking at the photographs, it's hard to believe that there is only a 4'2" difference between street (sidewalk?) level and top of the step.

Respectfully,

--Tommy

Tommy, the photo is giving you a false impression.

Per Ed Ledoux

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13111341-ignoring-prayer-man-while-stuck-in-a-fifty-year-old-box?page=9

Edited April 3, 2015 by Greg Parker

[Ray Mitcham]

Just for information, I have had this from the TSBD re the heights of the entrance steps.

Top three steps are 7 1/4' high

next is 7 1/8'

Next is 7 1/4"

Next 7 1/8"

and the bottom riser is 6 3/4"

Total of 50" from street level to top step.

Ray,

Just looking at the photographs, it's hard to believe that there is only a 4'2" difference between street (sidewalk?) level and top of the step.

Respectfully,

--Tommy

These are the actual measurements which I assume will be more accurate than trying to judge by eyes only.

The measurements are from the sidewalk, which is what I meant by street level.

[Ray Mitcham]

Further information on the steps, for those who are interested.

[Robert Prudhomme]

These figures seem to make sense, Ray. When I build wooden stairs, I usually try to aim for a pitch of 7:10, which is a fairly standard pitch for stairs. As this building would be open to the public, and not everyone finds a 7:10 pitch easy to negotiate, it also makes sense the pitch would be eased out to 7:12. In fact, it could even be part of the building code or public buildings.

As I get older, I've often thought, on mornings when some of my old logging injuries are flaring up, that it might be a good idea to lower the rate of ascent on the next set of steps I build.

[Don Jeffries]

I think it's naive to expect that, if Oswald had been on the steps and was indeed "Prayer Man," others would naturally have come forward and reported this to the authorities. Picture how frightened someone might have been, especially circa 1963, to possess such damning information, which would single-handedly have demolished the government's case against the alleged assassin.

Oswald's supposed responses during those unrecorded interrogation sessions must be taken with a huge grain of salt, for the very fact that they were unrecorded. Whether we are trusting his "I was out front" comment, or "I was on the first floor" comment, we are forced to accept the words of those who were in on these unrecorded sessions, and have dubious credibility imho.

Sean Murphy's research is impressive. I am one of the few who refuses to rule out the possibility that Oswald was the figure in the TSBD doorway, captured by Altgens and assumed by most to be Billy Lovelady. Sean has pointed us toward something, in the same area, which could be even more likely and, if true, proves conclusively that Oswald didn't shoot JFK. No more arguments about minutiae. One picture could indeed be worth a thousand words....

[Thomas Graves]

I think it's naive to expect that, if Oswald had been on the steps and was indeed "Prayer Man," others would naturally have come forward and reported this to the authorities. Picture how frightened someone might have been, especially circa 1963, to possess such damning information, which would single-handedly have demolished the government's case against the alleged assassin.

Oswald's supposed responses during those unrecorded interrogation sessions must be taken with a huge grain of salt, for the very fact that they were unrecorded. Whether we are trusting his "I was out front" comment, or "I was on the first floor" comment, we are forced to accept the words of those who were in on these unrecorded sessions, and have dubious credibility imho.

Sean Murphy's research is impressive. I am one of the few who refuses to rule out the possibility that Oswald was the figure in the TSBD doorway, captured by Altgens and assumed by most to be Billy Lovelady. Sean has pointed us toward something, in the same area, which could be even more likely and, if true, proves conclusively that Oswald didn't shoot JFK. No more arguments about minutiae. One picture could indeed be worth a thousand words....

Dear Don,

Have you considered the following two possibilities: 1 ) although Altgens 6 captured Billy Lovelady as "Doorman," it did not capture "Prayer Man" because "Prayer Man" was standing behind, above, and to the left of "Doorman" and therefore was out of Altgen's camera's "view," or 2 ) Altgen 6's "Doorman" (Lovelady) was Weigman's "Prayerman" (Lovelady) ?

Respectfully,

--Tommy

Edited April 4, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Vanessa Loney]

Hi Don

I have to agree with you 100% that one picture could be worth 1000 words in this debate. And the sooner we get better resolution of the films/pictures the better.

I'm a bit puzzled as to why you still think that Lovelady could still be PM though. PM and Lovelady appear alongside each other in Weigman.

[Don Jeffries]

Vanessa,

I don't believe Lovelady could be Prayer Man. What I meant is that I think there is still doubt about the figure in the Altgens photograph which is now generally accepted by most critics to be Lovelady. I think it could be Oswald, although I grant that it's more likely that "Prayer Man" is Oswald.

[Thomas Graves]

Vanessa,

I don't believe Lovelady could be Prayer Man. What I meant is that I think there is still doubt about the figure in the Altgens photograph which is now generally accepted by most critics to be Lovelady. I think it could be Oswald, although I grant that it's more likely that "Prayer Man" is Oswald.

Dear Don,

Unless, of course, Altgen's "Doorman" and Weigman's "Prayer Man" are the same person (Lovelady).

Respectfully,

--Tommy

Edited April 4, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Vanessa Loney]

Thanks Don. Apologies I misunderstood you there.

For argument's sake, let's say that 'Lovelady' in Altgens is really Oswald with head painted on etc (obviously I don't believe that). And let's say for argument's sake that PM is Oswald. We know from Weigman that Lovelady and Oswald are pictured in the same frame with Oswald standing at the back behind Lovelady only seconds after Altgens is taken.

How could Oswald be in two places at once? Or are you saying that Oswald stuck his head out to be photographed in Altgens and then stepped back to be filmed in Weigman? That still doesn't account for the figure of Lovelady in Weigman in exactly the same clothes etc as the figure in Altgens.

Thanks for your views.

[Vanessa Loney]

Hi Tommy

I humbly submit that they can't be, Tommy as both Lovelady and PM appear in Weigman standing near each other. There are 2 men who need to be accounted for - they can't both be Lovelady.