Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Robert Prudhomme]

The floor plan I posted was, I believe, prepared for the Warren Commission in 1964, and shows the main loading dock at the rear, off Houston St. However, a bit of digging has uncovered there was an annex off of the first floor.

If you count the windows oh the TSBD in the above photo, you'll see there are only six storeys visible, with the annex hiding the main floor.

If he was going to run up the steps, why did he park his motorcycle 45 feet past the steps on the Elm St. extension? Why did he not park right at the steps? Coming off of Houston St., he would have to ride right past the steps to get to where he parked it.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Vanessa Loney]

Thanks for posting that blow up of the annex. That sure looks like an entrance of some kind to me (even though it is not on any of the maps or diagrams). We can see where the TSBD brickwork ends and the annex begins. It must have been demolished later on.

Apologies, I'm confused with that last bit. I thought you meant Baker could have really been heading towards Houston and was going to go past the TSBD steps and not up them.

[Larry Hancock]

Venessa, the "annex" was a covered parking area to the west of the building....not sure but I think there was a gated/screened access off Elm that may have been used for shipping access at one time but on Nov. 22 it

is closed...you can find photos of the tramps walking in front of it. The loading doc was on the back side of the building from Elm street. Both the covered parking area and the loading dock are gone now.

[Vanessa Loney]

Venessa, the "annex" was a covered parking area to the west of the building....not sure but I think there was a gated/screened access off Elm that may have been used for shipping access at one time but on Nov. 22 it

is closed...you can find photos of the tramps walking in front of it. The loading doc was on the back side of the building from Elm street. Both the covered parking area and the loading dock are gone now.

Thank you Larry. You're right it can be clearly seen in this picture of the tramps. It's a big screened gate area. Although I have to say the gate looks open to me.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=jfk+assassination+three+tramps+photo&biw=1177&bih=549&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=pb5EVdjoEeSzmAXGqYGwAw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#imgrc=vVGPFyBTERACBM%253A%3BZXsReiQeA19SQM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.prouty.org%252Ftramps1.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.abovetopsecret.com%252Fforum%252Fthread2065%252Fpg1%3B480%3B360

I guess that raises the question of whether Baker could have known whether the gate was open or not when he was making his run?

My view is that he was heading to the TSBD steps because, as he noted in various statements and testimony, he believed the shots came from the roof of the TSBD. That's why he continued up to the roof once he got into the building despite possibly passing some actual bona fide suspects on his way to the roof.

Thanks for your views.

[Robert Prudhomme]

"Apologies, I'm confused with that last bit. I thought you meant Baker could have really been heading towards Houston and was going to go past the TSBD steps and not up them."

That is precisely what I meant. Outside of the testimony of Truly, Shelley and Lovelady, there is not a single witness who saw Baker ascend the front steps of the TSBD. There are major problems with the WC testimony of all three of these witnesses.

Shelley and Lovelady testified they were 25 steps down the Elm St. extension when they looked back and saw Truly and Baker ascending the TSBD steps. However, their testimony makes this an impossibility. I'll explain why, if you wish.

Truly's testimony is highly questionable, too. Only one person, Eddie Piper, saw him crossing the main floor of the TSBD in the company of another person. Piper testified to the WC that he thought that person could have been an FBI agent. As FBI agents seldom dress in the uniform of a motorcycle cop, complete with white helmet, I believe Truly's testimony, including the second floor lunch room incident, is a fabrication, as well.

It is very easy to draw a parallel between witnesses on the steps seeing Prayer Man and the same witnesses seeing Baker, and to assume they were threatened into not recalling seeing either man. While this would make perfect sense in the case of PM, what purpose would it serve having witnesses not recall seeing Baker? As the WC's story seems to hinge on the second floor incident, and Baker is the first witness to establish Oswald's presence above the main floor, it would make more sense to have as many witnesses as possible corroborating Baker's grand entrance into the front of the TSBD, even if they had to fabricate a few.

P.S.

Assuming there was an open entrance on the annex, how would that make any difference to this discussion?

Edited May 2, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Vanessa Loney]

"Apologies, I'm confused with that last bit. I thought you meant Baker could have really been heading towards Houston and was going to go past the TSBD steps and not up them."

That is precisely what I meant. Outside of the testimony of Truly, Shelley and Lovelady, there is not a single witness who saw Baker ascend the front steps of the TSBD. There are major problems with the WC testimony of all three of these witnesses.

Shelley and Lovelady testified they were 25 steps down the Elm St. extension when they looked back and saw Truly and Baker ascending the TSBD steps. However, their testimony makes this an impossibility. I'll explain why, if you wish.

Truly's testimony is highly questionable, too. Only one person, Eddie Piper, saw him crossing the main floor of the TSBD in the company of another person. Piper testified to the WC that he thought that person could have been an FBI agent. As FBI agents seldom dress in the uniform of a motorcycle cop, complete with white helmet, I believe Truly's testimony, including the second floor lunch room incident, is a fabrication, as well.

It is very easy to draw a parallel between witnesses on the steps seeing Prayer Man and the same witnesses seeing Baker, and to assume they were threatened into not recalling seeing either man. While this would make perfect sense in the case of PM, what purpose would it serve having witnesses not recall seeing Baker? As the WC's story seems to hinge on the second floor incident, and Baker is the first witness to establish Oswald's presence above the main floor, it would make more sense to have as many witnesses as possible corroborating Baker's grand entrance into the front of the TSBD, even if they had to fabricate a few.

P.S.

Assuming there was an open entrance on the annex, how would that make any difference to this discussion?

Hi Bob, yes I'm with you on all that. The point I was making was that if Baker was really heading to Houston why not ride his motorbike all the way instead of getting off at the pavement and running towards the TSBD steps?

I agree with you about the testimony of those on the steps and near the steps - it's all contradictory including the fact that they didn't see Baker. But rather than concluding that Baker didn't go up those steps I'm concluding that there was a specific reason for them not seeing Baker or PM on the steps.

I have to ask, if Baker didn't get into the TSBD by the front steps what evidence is there for any other way he might have got into the building? We have Oswald, Baker and Truly all confirming that Baker went up the steps. Do we have anyone saying they saw Baker go into the TSBD any other way?

The point I'm making about the open gates is that if Baker just wanted to get into the TSBD he could have tried that entrance as it was closer. But I think he went straight for the TSBD steps because he wanted to get into the taller building with roof access because he thought the shots were coming from the roof of the TSBD. But maybe I'm stretching the point here.

Happy for you to go over the Gloria Calvary issue again.

[Vanessa Loney]

"Apologies, I'm confused with that last bit. I thought you meant Baker could have really been heading towards Houston and was going to go past the TSBD steps and not up them."

That is precisely what I meant. Outside of the testimony of Truly, Shelley and Lovelady, there is not a single witness who saw Baker ascend the front steps of the TSBD. There are major problems with the WC testimony of all three of these witnesses.

Shelley and Lovelady testified they were 25 steps down the Elm St. extension when they looked back and saw Truly and Baker ascending the TSBD steps. However, their testimony makes this an impossibility. I'll explain why, if you wish.

Truly's testimony is highly questionable, too. Only one person, Eddie Piper, saw him crossing the main floor of the TSBD in the company of another person. Piper testified to the WC that he thought that person could have been an FBI agent. As FBI agents seldom dress in the uniform of a motorcycle cop, complete with white helmet, I believe Truly's testimony, including the second floor lunch room incident, is a fabrication, as well.

It is very easy to draw a parallel between witnesses on the steps seeing Prayer Man and the same witnesses seeing Baker, and to assume they were threatened into not recalling seeing either man. While this would make perfect sense in the case of PM, what purpose would it serve having witnesses not recall seeing Baker? As the WC's story seems to hinge on the second floor incident, and Baker is the first witness to establish Oswald's presence above the main floor, it would make more sense to have as many witnesses as possible corroborating Baker's grand entrance into the front of the TSBD, even if they had to fabricate a few.

P.S.

Assuming there was an open entrance on the annex, how would that make any difference to this discussion?

PS Sorry Bob, forgot to address your last issue. It's a good question why they just didn't say they saw Baker on the steps going into the building? It would have made a lot more sense and everyone's testimony would have been consistent.

But back on the thread SM posted an early press clipping showing Fritz (?) saying that as Baker rushed into the building Oswald rushed out. There are other early press clippings with a similar story. SM also posted evidence that Baker's story evolved over time and that there seemed to be some push back on his part about where he was supposed to have encountered Oswald.

I'm obviously just speculating here because I don't have the answer. But the plotters have two sources of potential trouble which could completely destroy the issue of Oswald's involvement ie Baker himself and witnesses on the steps seeing Baker talk to PM. They appear to be having problems with Baker and let's just say for the sake of argument that BWF did initially tell the police that he was on the steps with Oswald and saw the policeman rush up the steps and talk to Oswald or talk to someone.

Can they have Baker deny that he saw and spoke to Oswald on the steps but still have BWF saying Baker came up the steps and spoke to someone (even if that person wasn't Oswald)? If BWF maintains that Baker spoke to someone on the steps doesn't that make Baker's position harder?

Much easier if that encounter goes away completely for BWF and for Baker gets moved to the 2nd floor lunchroom.

I'm afraid that's the best I can do. Would be happy to hear anyone else's views on this.

[James R Gordon]

Kathy,

The links are broken or were never established

James

[Vanessa Loney]

Might just be me, but I can't seem to view the photos on post 2060.

Might just be me, but I can't seem to view the photos on post 2060.

Hi Kathy - which one is 2060? I'm only up to comment # 2054.

[Vanessa Loney]

While we are at it, I have been digging about and

In 1967 (!) Richard Bernabei , writes Weisberg, and I quote from page 4 of this doc.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/B%20Disk/Bernabei%20Dick%201968/Item%2025B.pdf

Here is another discrepancy in the pictures that Life prints.

Tina Towner was standing across the street from the TSBD doorway when

she took xxx color movies of the President as his car drove between her

and the doorway. Her movie evidently includes numerous frames that depict

all of the TSBD doorway as it passed from left to right across her films.

The ftame of Towner's movie that Life publishes on page 91 (07) shows

only a portion of the doorway; aga the right side of the doorway has

been cut from the picture. Even the sprocket holes of the insignificant

left side are shown.

Moreover, althouglwe know from other photographs and from the testimon

of witnesses that several people were standing in the doorway when Towner

took her pictures, none of those people are evident in the photo that

Life published. We know that a man resembling Ozwald ( and wearing a

shirt that is identical in every respect to the shirt that Ozwald was

wearing) was standing on the west side of the doorway when the motorcade

passed. Where is he in Towner's picture? Where are the others who are

clearly depicted in the Altgens photograph?

Towner must have photographed that man and the others; she could not

have failed. to photograph them. If her pictures do not show the man's

facial features, they must clearly show the color of his shirt, a vital

niece of information. (The shirt apnears reddish in Houghes' film, but

the whole of that picture by Houghes has a reddish tint, and it leas tal7en

et a great distance)

I suspect that a clear eicture of Ozwald and Lovelady together was

erased from thd,X6ture that Life presents on page 91. You can test that

suspicion by seeing all the frames of Tina Towner's film, or by finding

another photo of the TL;ED doorway.

While we are at it, I have been digging about and

In 1967 (!) Richard Bernabei , writes Weisberg, and I quote from page 4 of this doc.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/B%20Disk/Bernabei%20Dick%201968/Item%2025B.pdf

Here is another discrepancy in the pictures that Life prints.

Tina Towner was standing across the street from the TSBD doorway when

she took xxx color movies of the President as his car drove between her

and the doorway. Her movie evidently includes numerous frames that depict

all of the TSBD doorway as it passed from left to right across her films.

The ftame of Towner's movie that Life publishes on page 91 (07) shows

only a portion of the doorway; aga the right side of the doorway has

been cut from the picture. Even the sprocket holes of the insignificant

left side are shown.

Moreover, althouglwe know from other photographs and from the testimon

of witnesses that several people were standing in the doorway when Towner

took her pictures, none of those people are evident in the photo that

Life published. We know that a man resembling Ozwald ( and wearing a

shirt that is identical in every respect to the shirt that Ozwald was

wearing) was standing on the west side of the doorway when the motorcade

passed. Where is he in Towner's picture? Where are the others who are

clearly depicted in the Altgens photograph?

Towner must have photographed that man and the others; she could not

have failed. to photograph them. If her pictures do not show the man's

facial features, they must clearly show the color of his shirt, a vital

niece of information. (The shirt apnears reddish in Houghes' film, but

the whole of that picture by Houghes has a reddish tint, and it leas tal7en

et a great distance)

I suspect that a clear eicture of Ozwald and Lovelady together was

erased from thd,X6ture that Life presents on page 91. You can test that

suspicion by seeing all the frames of Tina Towner's film, or by finding

another photo of the TL;ED doorway.

Wow, that's amazing. Thanks Barto.

How does Bernabei already know that "Ozwald" was standing in the doorway? Where did he get that from?

[James R Gordon]

Kathy,

Bart has either not established his links properly of the files have been moved since he created the links.

Bart needs to re-establish the links to the files.

James.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Lovelady and Shelly left straight after, officer Baker can be seen running in the foreground.

There may be a slight snap to the left by Shelly just before the sign.

Gifs by Gerda Dunckel.

Lovelady and Shelley left straight after? Not according to their WC testimonies.

From the Warren Commission testimony of Bill Lovelady:

"Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step?

Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level.

Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.

Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.

Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.

Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.

Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes."

From the Warren Commission testimony of Bill Shelley:

"Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.

Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes."

Edited May 3, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Pat Speer]

While we are at it, I have been digging about and

In 1967 (!) Richard Bernabei , writes Weisberg, and I quote from page 4 of this doc.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/B%20Disk/Bernabei%20Dick%201968/Item%2025B.pdf

Here is another discrepancy in the pictures that Life prints.

Tina Towner was standing across the street from the TSBD doorway when

she took xxx color movies of the President as his car drove between her

and the doorway. Her movie evidently includes numerous frames that depict

all of the TSBD doorway as it passed from left to right across her films.

The ftame of Towner's movie that Life publishes on page 91 (07) shows

only a portion of the doorway; aga the right side of the doorway has

been cut from the picture. Even the sprocket holes of the insignificant

left side are shown.

Moreover, althouglwe know from other photographs and from the testimon

of witnesses that several people were standing in the doorway when Towner

took her pictures, none of those people are evident in the photo that

Life published. We know that a man resembling Ozwald ( and wearing a

shirt that is identical in every respect to the shirt that Ozwald was

wearing) was standing on the west side of the doorway when the motorcade

passed. Where is he in Towner's picture? Where are the others who are

clearly depicted in the Altgens photograph?

Towner must have photographed that man and the others; she could not

have failed. to photograph them. If her pictures do not show the man's

facial features, they must clearly show the color of his shirt, a vital

niece of information. (The shirt apnears reddish in Houghes' film, but

the whole of that picture by Houghes has a reddish tint, and it leas tal7en

et a great distance)

I suspect that a clear eicture of Ozwald and Lovelady together was

erased from thd,X6ture that Life presents on page 91. You can test that

suspicion by seeing all the frames of Tina Towner's film, or by finding

another photo of the TL;ED doorway.

While we are at it, I have been digging about and

In 1967 (!) Richard Bernabei , writes Weisberg, and I quote from page 4 of this doc.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/B%20Disk/Bernabei%20Dick%201968/Item%2025B.pdf

Here is another discrepancy in the pictures that Life prints.

Tina Towner was standing across the street from the TSBD doorway when

she took xxx color movies of the President as his car drove between her

and the doorway. Her movie evidently includes numerous frames that depict

all of the TSBD doorway as it passed from left to right across her films.

The ftame of Towner's movie that Life publishes on page 91 (07) shows

only a portion of the doorway; aga the right side of the doorway has

been cut from the picture. Even the sprocket holes of the insignificant

left side are shown.

Moreover, althouglwe know from other photographs and from the testimon

of witnesses that several people were standing in the doorway when Towner

took her pictures, none of those people are evident in the photo that

Life published. We know that a man resembling Ozwald ( and wearing a

shirt that is identical in every respect to the shirt that Ozwald was

wearing) was standing on the west side of the doorway when the motorcade

passed. Where is he in Towner's picture? Where are the others who are

clearly depicted in the Altgens photograph?

Towner must have photographed that man and the others; she could not

have failed. to photograph them. If her pictures do not show the man's

facial features, they must clearly show the color of his shirt, a vital

niece of information. (The shirt apnears reddish in Houghes' film, but

the whole of that picture by Houghes has a reddish tint, and it leas tal7en

et a great distance)

I suspect that a clear eicture of Ozwald and Lovelady together was

erased from thd,X6ture that Life presents on page 91. You can test that

suspicion by seeing all the frames of Tina Towner's film, or by finding

another photo of the TL;ED doorway.

Wow, that's amazing. Thanks Barto.

How does Bernabei already know that "Ozwald" was standing in the doorway? Where did he get that from?

I haven't kept up with this thread, Bart, so pardon me if I'm missing something.

But it seems you're confusing the original "Oswald was in the doorway" argument--that it was Oswald in the Altgens photo--with the more recent argument--that Oswald was "prayer man". The original argument was largely dispensed with by the FBI and WC when it got witness after witness to say the man in the Altgens photo was Billy Lovelady. Some researchers continued to have their suspicions, however. This bubbled up a few years back with the claim the figure identified as Lovelady really was Oswald, only disguised to look like Lovelady.

The more recent argument got drummed up on this thread and on the Lancer Forum, if I recall. It holds that Oswald is a previously unnoticed figure identified as Prayer Man--a figure presumably unseen by many of those on the steps.

[Greg Parker]

Hi Pat,

it is about this little entry: ''I suspect that a clear eicture of Ozwald and Lovelady together''

Best,

B

Yep, the guy is talking about someone other than Lovelady who is visible in other shots - i.e. PM.

[Robert Prudhomme]

If Baker was going up the front steps of the TSBD, why did he park his motorcycle 45 feet down the Elm St. extension? Why not park right at the steps?