Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

[David Josephs]

There was already a great deal of dialogue crafted from the DeM material and I didn't want to turn my book into a retread of that period of time. I'll agree that I gave short shrift to the Walker episode -- and I may amend in future editions, thanks for the suggestion.

OK, and I have another suggestion. The alleged Mexico City Bus Ride of September 25th failed to pass cross-examination, and yet you include a conversation on that bus, as if it was historical fact.

I think that you should have admitted that. Not only are the words of OSWALD paraphrased, but also based on impeached evidence.

IMHO, OSWALD rode in an automobile to Mexico City. Your book states as fact that he rode in a bus -- and fails to acknowledge the other side.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

My preface and my afterword state clearly that these dialogues are based on what people claim LHO said.

Guess it's just too much for you to go read the articles yourself.... There was no OSWALD on any bus... sorry.

The 15 day visa (FM-8) comes from an application for a 180 visa (FM-5) and does not have the same info as what was recorded on the FM-11 record of travel by border location.

If an Oswald did arrive via car he had nothing to do with the hotel or the embassy stories since whoever it was that was with Duran and Azcue on the 27th, was not the Oswald Ruby killed nor did he return the rest of the supposed "trip" to Mexico - the Mystery Man photo in the WCR is from Oct 4th...

The same man in Mexico is the conduit for the FBI for all the evidence... even the faked FRONTERA bus manifest which turned out to leave too late for the things they DID know about where Oswald was...

Then there's the Del Note bus manifest - crossed out - and the knowledge that Del Norte did not KEEP or MAKE manifests of passengers... and that initial searches for these records turned up nothing.

That staff of the President of Mexico was at ALL 4 bus line terminals and TOOK every bit of evidence related to these days.

But I'm sure you've done all the work I have these last 7 months and therefore have nothing left to know or learn about the FBI's creation of the bus trip...

Great Job!

Edited April 20, 2015 by David Josephs

[Greg Parker]

David Josephs,

I read your Chapter 6 at CTKA today.

It appears to me from what you relate that the FBI was pretty seriously trying to keep tabs on Marina's husband post his NOLA arrest and that the Bureau lost track of him for the period he was supposedly (but as you argue, not actually) in Mexico City.

Which forces me to reconsider whether Oswald was working (or thought he was working) for some intelligence service. I'm not convinced he was, but for Oswald to drop off the FBI's radar screen so precipitously and so definitely means he was up to something possibly secretive. Something about which the FBI appears to have known nothing. Something about which the CIA appears to have known nothing, given the clumsy impersonations in M.C.

Which suggests to me that if Oswald was working for some intelligence service, it wasn't the FBI or the CIA. Which makes all the more interesting J. Lee Rankin's revelation of information at an early W.C. Executive Session that Oswald had an "FBI number" and was being paid something like $200 a month by the FBI. I've always discounted this information. Perhaps, though, Oswald was being compensated by some other intelligence service masquerading as the FBI.

I don't see facts to support this supposition. In particular, I see nothing indicating Oswald had a secret source of income. But who knows? In any event, Oswald's disappearance in late September-early October bears deep consideration IMO.

Not secretive at all. Both Marina and Mike Paine's wife stated that Oswald told them he was either heading east, or to Houston to look for work. Marina stated this about 5 in various interviews before changing her mind before the WC.

Here is the very strong evidence which places him in Houston doing EXACTLY what he said he was going to be doing.

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t7-the-houston-problem-pt-2

[Greg Parker]

There was already a great deal of dialogue crafted from the DeM material and I didn't want to turn my book into a retread of that period of time. I'll agree that I gave short shrift to the Walker episode -- and I may amend in future editions, thanks for the suggestion.

OK, and I have another suggestion. The alleged Mexico City Bus Ride of September 25th failed to pass cross-examination, and yet you include a conversation on that bus, as if it was historical fact.

I think that you should have admitted that. Not only are the words of OSWALD paraphrased, but also based on impeached evidence.

IMHO, OSWALD rode in an automobile to Mexico City. Your book states as fact that he rode in a bus -- and fails to acknowledge the other side.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

My preface and my afterword state clearly that these dialogues are based on what people claim LHO said.

Guess it's just too much for you to go read the articles yourself.... There was no OSWALD on any bus... sorry.

LOL! Who was it that was whining about me posting to links on other sites? Hypocrisy comes easy to you, doesn't it David?

Credit where due, though. You are right. Oswald was not on any bus, and I have proof above and beyond what you have put together. And yes. Not saying yet what it is.

The 15 day visa (FM-8) comes from an application for a 180 visa (FM-5) and does not have the same info as what was recorded on the FM-11 record of travel by border location.

If an Oswald did arrive via car he had nothing to do with the hotel or the embassy stories since whoever it was that was with Duran and Azcue on the 27th, was not the Oswald Ruby killed nor did he return the rest of the supposed "trip" to Mexico - the Mystery Man photo in the WCR is from Oct 4th...

The same man in Mexico is the conduit for the FBI for all the evidence... even the faked FRONTERA bus manifest which turned out to leave too late for the things they DID know about where Oswald was...

Then there's the Del Note bus manifest - crossed out - and the knowledge that Del Norte did not KEEP or MAKE manifests of passengers... and that initial searches for these records turned up nothing.

That staff of the President of Mexico was at ALL 4 bus line terminals and TOOK every bit of evidence related to these days.

But I'm sure you've done all the work I have these last 7 months and therefore have nothing left to know or learn about the FBI's creation of the bus trip...

Great Job!

[Guest Mark Valenti]

There was already a great deal of dialogue crafted from the DeM material and I didn't want to turn my book into a retread of that period of time. I'll agree that I gave short shrift to the Walker episode -- and I may amend in future editions, thanks for the suggestion.

OK, and I have another suggestion. The alleged Mexico City Bus Ride of September 25th failed to pass cross-examination, and yet you include a conversation on that bus, as if it was historical fact.

I think that you should have admitted that. Not only are the words of OSWALD paraphrased, but also based on impeached evidence.

IMHO, OSWALD rode in an automobile to Mexico City. Your book states as fact that he rode in a bus -- and fails to acknowledge the other side.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

My preface and my afterword state clearly that these dialogues are based on what people claim LHO said.

Guess it's just too much for you to go read the articles yourself.... There was no OSWALD on any bus... sorry.

The 15 day visa (FM-8) comes from an application for a 180 visa (FM-5) and does not have the same info as what was recorded on the FM-11 record of travel by border location.

If an Oswald did arrive via car he had nothing to do with the hotel or the embassy stories since whoever it was that was with Duran and Azcue on the 27th, was not the Oswald Ruby killed nor did he return the rest of the supposed "trip" to Mexico - the Mystery Man photo in the WCR is from Oct 4th...

The same man in Mexico is the conduit for the FBI for all the evidence... even the faked FRONTERA bus manifest which turned out to leave too late for the things they DID know about where Oswald was...

Then there's the Del Note bus manifest - crossed out - and the knowledge that Del Norte did not KEEP or MAKE manifests of passengers... and that initial searches for these records turned up nothing.

That staff of the President of Mexico was at ALL 4 bus line terminals and TOOK every bit of evidence related to these days.

But I'm sure you've done all the work I have these last 7 months and therefore have nothing left to know or learn about the FBI's creation of the bus trip...

Great Job!

Ignoramus. Read what I wrote. My book gathers what people claim LHO said. It's an organized representation of the official story, in one convenient collection. The title has an asterisk explaining that we can't know he actually said these things. But I felt it would be helpful to researchers to have the full picture of what was attributed to him. Sheesh. How do you even manage to start a car without blowing yourself up?

[Greg Parker]

But I felt it would be helpful to researchers

Mark,

You should have allotted some of the quotes to poor "Harvey".

Randomly of course. In fact... you should have had Lee starting some of the sentences and Harvey finishing them... like identical twins!

Edited April 21, 2015 by Greg Parker

[Paul Trejo]

...There was no OSWALD on any bus... sorry.

The 15 day visa (FM-8) comes from an application for a 180 visa (FM-5) and does not have the same info as what was recorded on the FM-11 record of travel by border location.

If an Oswald did arrive via car he had nothing to do with the hotel or the embassy stories since whoever it was that was with Duran and Azcue on the 27th, was not the Oswald Ruby killed nor did he return the rest of the supposed "trip" to Mexico - the Mystery Man photo in the WCR is from Oct 4th...

The same man in Mexico is the conduit for the FBI for all the evidence... even the faked FRONTERA bus manifest which turned out to leave too late for the things they DID know about where Oswald was...

Then there's the Del Note bus manifest - crossed out - and the knowledge that Del Norte did not KEEP or MAKE manifests of passengers... and that initial searches for these records turned up nothing...

Well David, although you and I agree that OSWALD never rode on a bus to Mexico in September 1963, we still differ on some details.

For example, the Mystery Man photo in Mexico City -- have you not read what Bill Simpich proposed about him in his milestone book, "State Secret" (2014)? That photo is directly explained by the CIA mole-hunt for the OSWALD IMPERSONATOR in Mexico City. The same goes for changing the middle name of OSWALD to "Henry".

Consider this scenario: a CIA mole-hunt is not known by the rank and file inside the CIA. If they accept a 201 file from the archives, they presume it is 100% correct. When the FBI demanded the CIA 201 file for Lee OSWALD, they got this mole-hunt, booby-trapped 201 file, and the CIA rank and file didn't know the difference.

OSWALD was in Mexico City. The LOPEZ REPORT is a crucial document in the JFK murder. You should examine it and acknowledge its importance.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 21, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Not secretive at all. Both Marina and Mike Paine's wife stated that Oswald told them he was either heading east, or to Houston to look for work. Marina stated this about 5 in various interviews before changing her mind before the WC.

Here is the very strong evidence which places him in Houston doing EXACTLY what he said he was going to be doing.

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t7-the-houston-problem-pt-2

Well, Greg, I agree with you that OSWALD did not take a bus to Mexico City. Still, we have differences.

As for the Houston fib, that was typical of OSWALD. Also, before Marina took the oath, she lied continually to the FBI and Secret Service. That's common knowledge, and even I, who otherwise believe Marina faithfully, admit that she lied freely before she was under oath.

It only made sense for her to repeat the lie that Ruth was repeating which OSWALD had told her. Marina was scared.

What changed Marina's mind was when she was informed by the Secret Service that they received more than $100,000 from the American Public addressed to her and her children -- in sympathy for her plight. Adjusted for inflation, that's a million dollars in today's currency.

That would change anybody's mind. For the first time, Marina was assured that she had sympathizers, and would not be kicked out of the USA -- just as the FBI had assured her all along.

Finally, after that point, she took the oath and told the TRUTH to the Warren Commission. What we have from Marina Oswald in the WC testimony is the TRUTH AS SHE KNEW IT. That is, Lee Harvey OSWALD lied to her continually -- so we receive many of his lies (i.e. he always acted alone; he always took the bus; he buried his rifle) along with her own eye-witness testimony. But she opened up for us, and we should recognize the fact.

Without believing Marina Oswald, it is impossible to solve the JFK murder.

As for that link that you provided as evidence that OSWALD was in Houston -- it's merely another "sighting" to add to the countless "sightings" of OSWALD that street people reported to the FBI in the months after the JFK murder. I wasn't impressed by it in the slightest.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 21, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Guest Mark Valenti]

But I felt it would be helpful to researchers

Mark,

You should have allotted some of the quotes to poor "Harvey".

Randomly of course. In fact... you should have had Lee starting some of the sentences and Harvey finishing them... like identical twins!

Harvey's mom can discipline Lee and Lee's mom can cook for Harvey. And John Pic won't recognize either one of 'em.

[Thomas Graves]

But I felt it would be helpful to researchers

Mark,

You should have allotted some of the quotes to poor "Harvey".

Randomly of course. In fact... you should have had Lee starting some of the sentences and Harvey finishing them... like identical twins!

Harvey's mom can discipline Lee and Lee's mom can cook for Harvey. And John Pic won't recognize either one of 'em.

Don't forget Lee Henry Oswald.

The bad guys wanted to make sure we were totally confused, so the created three of 'em: Harvey, Lee, and Henry.

--Tommy

[Paul Trejo]

...Credit where due, though. You are right. Oswald was not on any bus, and I have proof above and beyond what you have put together...

Greg, was it your work that I saw on this Forum in the past year about CIA and other official documents analyzing automobiles in and out of Mexico during late September and early October 1963?

Thanks,

--Paul

[Jon G. Tidd]

Greg,

I like a lot your analysis of the possible trip to Houston over at ROKC.

Just FWIW, nothing more, I wish I didn't have to go over to ROKC (which is no problem) to get your thinking on this case. I wish this forum were not such a pugilistic forum for you.

[Greg Parker]

...Credit where due, though. You are right. Oswald was not on any bus, and I have proof above and beyond what you have put together...

Greg, was it your work that I saw on this Forum in the past year about CIA and other official documents analyzing automobiles in and out of Mexico during late September and early October 1963?

Thanks,

--Paul

Possibly.

[David Josephs]

Not secretive at all. Both Marina and Mike Paine's wife stated that Oswald told them he was either heading east, or to Houston to look for work. Marina stated this about 5 in various interviews before changing her mind before the WC.

Here is the very strong evidence which places him in Houston doing EXACTLY what he said he was going to be doing.

http://reopenkennedy...on-problem-pt-2

Okay - so now your sources are Marina and Ruth... well done - very reliable sources of info incriminating Oswald

So let's use Marina and CE2191 which you refer to and see what it actually says:

Hemmett describes this man's clothes yet Marina - who use use to prove you case - says he never owned those clothes...

Mr. Hammett describes this man resembling OSWALD yet not a single other soul does... why did you forget to mention that in your linked article?

Mrs. Holiman claims this to occur "about a month before the assassiantion" - what was your response?

"Take it back a month though, and you have the original date the FBI believed Oswald had left New Orleans"

But she did not say "two months prior", or "at the end of September"... and the ID she makes was due to the similarity of the man to the photos - WHICH photos wa she shown Parker?

Do you get Oswald to Houston in your explanation or offer any means for him to do so? Not that I saw

The 12:20 bus per the FBI's backdated Sept report?

Maybe the bus ticket he bought in New Orleans?

Do you discuss the call to the Twifords and what that means related to HOUSTON and his time there.

How exactly do you write an entire piece on Houston and Oswald and not include Twiford or the manner in which he got there...

SA CHAPMAN wrote about the Oct 4th call in a report... they knew Oswald called from the YMCA.... why did Ruth not notify the FBI about Oswald when he moved in, or when he got the job? Why not until Oct 31st/Nov 1st?

And then you quote the WASHINGTON POST? as your source for Oswald having done some job hunting in Houston... when every bit of the FBI's story about that time period was a lie - BEN BRADLEE and the Washington Post is what you use as "EVIDENCE" - uh, ok - if you feel that the Post was an unbiased source of info on Oswald...

It also appears that your other sources are purely MEDIA OUTLETS - so Newspapers fo om1963 are authentic sources for facts related to the Oswald case... I rest my case regarding the sources used by this man..

You wrote:

3. The statements Mrs Holiman denied making:

- That she was in any way certain that the person had been Oswald

- That the person had mentioned staying with friends in Houston

- That he had mentioned how long he had been in Houston

and your conclusion from these denials?

"The first option would appear to be a statistical improbability. What militates against the second option is even harder to get around......"

"In short, the original story given by Marina and confirmed by Ruth Paine is exactly what appears to have transpired."

Thanks for playing and posting a link to your work so it can be used to show how short you fall when it comes to your analysis and sourcing.

Good thing you have your minions though - they think this is a quality argument... which proves Oswald was in Houston..

Well done Parker... well done

Edited April 21, 2015 by David Josephs

[Greg Parker]

Are you on meds, David?

Okay - so now your sources are Marina and Ruth... well done - very reliable sources of info incriminating Oswald

My use of Marina and Ruth in this instance is based on what they said ORIGINALLY -- you know -- before Marina was "convinced" she need to change her story about what

Oswald told her in regard to where he was going and what his purpose was.

So let's use Marina and CE2191 which you refer to and see what it actually says:

Hemmett describes this man's clothes yet Marina - who use use to prove you case - says he never owned those clothes...

Mr. Hammett describes this man resembling OSWALD yet not a single other soul does... why did you forget to mention that in your linked article?

.No. I didn't forget. It's right here.

Hammett did come across as a good, solid witness. There was no question he had sold the ticket to someone. But was that someone Oswald or a look-alike? Marina Oswald was interviewed on January 29, 1964 in regard to the clothing description given by Hammett. She stated that to the best of her knowledge, Oswald owned no clothing or footwear matching the description. In a prior FBI interview on November 29, 1963, Marina had said that she and Lee had agreed that he would stay in New Orleans to look for work, and that if he was unable to find any, he would return to Dallas. Lee, she added, had also told her that he had a friend in "another city" and that he might contact this friend to see if he could help find work, although she herself doubted such a friend existed.[1] In no less than five subsequent interviews, Marina denied any knowledge that Oswald had gone to Mexico. Then came her Warren Commission testimony on February 3, 1964. Suddenly she knew of Oswald's intentions from August to not only go to Mexico, but also to visit the Soviet Embassy there in the hope of getting to Cuba. To the eternal shame of Rankin, he did not ask for any explanation regarding the past multiple denials to investigators. Such questions did finally come though, at the HSCA hearings. Marina responded by saying, "At that time I did not really have the country to go to....I thought if I tell them that I knew about Mexico. I would be responsible just as well for what he did." This implies that she ad-libbed a story to the FBI in order to avoid being held partially responsible for Oswald's actions. What is not clear from this statement is just what Marina thought Mexico had to do with events in Dealey Plaza (since the act of going to Mexico itself was far from illegal, let alone indicative of a pending assassination). Yet if her story about looking for work was merely a cover story, she was already connecting Mexico to later events as early as Nov 29 and possibly sooner! And how did it come about that Marina concocted a cover story that was essentially the same story told by Ruth Paine – who had no reason to supply any “alibi” for Oswald?

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t6-the-houston-problem-pt-1

Mrs. Holiman claims this to occur "about a month before the assassiantion" - what was your response?

"Take it back a month though, and you have the original date the FBI believed Oswald had left New Orleans"

But she did not say "two months prior", or "at the end of September"... and the ID she makes was due to the similarity of the man to the photos - WHICH photos wa she shown Parker?

I don't recall if it was mentioned and I'm not about to check for you when you can do that yourself. You only want to know because of your idiotic belief that the photos show two different people.

You can do your own research to try and prop your idiocy up.

As for her getting the month wrong.... so what? She either misremembered, or the evil FBI changed what she she said in an attempt to nullify her. Nah.. Sorry... you'd never believe such a thing about the FBI, would you, David?

Edited April 22, 2015 by Greg Parker

[Don Jeffries]

It's instructive for all irresponsible "conspiracy theorists" to take note of Greg Parker's sane, reasonable style of debate. A particularly astute way of starting off a powerful response is to write, "Are you on meds?" You can finish by calling your opponent's argument "idiocy" and, secure in your own forum's safe haven, probably use more colorful language in proving your point.

It's nice for those of us who have been "disgraceful" in our work to know that Greg Parker is out there, lending us credibility.