The Phil Ochs Question

[Jim Glover]

Thanks Jim.

What, if anything, did Phil change about his life/career/songwriting/performing after he got the psy-ops message of the attack? Are you aware of other such attacks on prominent artists of the era?

I'm starting to understand the true nature of the CIA's Operation CHAOS (for a while in conjunction with the FBI's COINTELPRO), and leaning towards believing that it targeted singers and songwriters. Then again I've long been convinced that the gov't murdered John Lennon so I don't need much convincing.

June 16 - 18: The Monterey International Pop Music Festival takes place. Over 200,000 people attend. It is often regarded as the precursor to Woodstock. It likely alarms both the FBI & the CIA. David Crosby, of the Byrds, tells the crowd that the Warren Report is a lie & that JFK was killed by many guns in a conspiracy. He then dedicates a song, "He Was a Friend of Mine," to him.

August: LBJ dramatically boosts CIA's illegal spying on US citizens, ongoing since 1959, so he can keep tabs on anti-war activists. The program will soon be named Operation CHAOS.

FBI's COINTELPRO program is ongoing at that point.

Three "Radicals" have slipped our memories here. Abbie Hoffman, dying from an overdose of phenolbarbital. Jerry Rubin dying while jaywalking. Somewhat of a friend to John Lennon. And then there's Hunter Thompson, supposedly shooting himself in the head. Thompson wrote a book about the Hell's Angels. In his last year, some people believe he witnessed or filmed a human sacrifice in Bohemian Grove, a place where certain politicians more or less turn their soul over to the devil and undergo the burning of their consciences.

And about Sal Mineo -- he was gay. That could have played a part. I have never been convinced that the black man whom they blamed, really killed Sal Mineo.

Other journalists: Dorothy Kilgallen, dead from mixing sleeping pills and alcohol. Was writing a book about the Assassination conspiracy. Irv Kupcinet -- questioned a mob member about Jack Ruby, as soon as he saw Ruby shoot Oswald. Four days later Irv's daughter was murdered by compression of her left carotid artery, or by a karate chop. Jim Koethe -- also killed by karate chop. He was a reporter and gay and may have known too much about Ruby.

Kathy

Wow Kathy, You have studied this deeper than I have. Phil's sister Sonny told me that Jerry Rubin was the last of his old friends to see Phil.

I did not know that Jerry is gone too. Sorry to hear that.

I have always suspected that the same forces took John Lennon away too.

Yoko blames herself for goin out to Eat when they were tired but The Assassin would have stalked until his program was complete.

Most of us Folk singers in the US and Canada knew it was a plot...now we are past the dots and connecting the Plots!

When Phil told me about him being strangled it shook me up too.

I have been worked on in like fashion several times but I don't feel like talking about it right now.

The main thing to realize is when they are scaring you (that is why we call them Spooks!) We are lucky because that means they are too scared themselves to cross the line because someone can always be spyin on them.

[Kathleen Collins]

[quote

Three "Radicals" have slipped our memories here. Abbie Hoffman, dying from an overdose of phenolbarbital. Jerry Rubin dying while jaywalking. Somewhat of a friend to John Lennon. And then there's Hunter Thompson, supposedly shooting himself in the head. Thompson wrote a book about the Hell's Angels. In his last year, some people believe he witnessed or filmed a human sacrifice in Bohemian Grove, a place where certain politicians more or less turn their soul over to the devil and undergo the burning of their consciences.

And about Sal Mineo -- he was gay. That could have played a part. I have never been convinced that the black man whom they blamed, really killed Sal Mineo.

Other journalists: Dorothy Kilgallen, dead from mixing sleeping pills and alcohol. Was writing a book about the Assassination conspiracy. Irv Kupcinet -- questioned a mob member about Jack Ruby, as soon as he saw Ruby shoot Oswald. Four days later Irv's daughter was murdered by compression of her left carotid artery, or by a karate chop. Jim Koethe -- also killed by karate chop. He was a reporter and gay and may have known too much about Ruby.

Kathy

Wow Kathy, You have studied this deeper than I have. Phil's sister Sonny told me that Jerry Rubin was the last of his old friends to see Phil.

I did not know that Jerry is gone too. Sorry to hear that.

I have always suspected that the same forces took John Lennon away too.

.

Did you know that a Cuban Exile who survived the Bay of Pigs was on guard duty the night John Lennon was killed? In Cuba he was known as San Jenis. When he was at the Dakota, he went by the name Jose Perdomo. A member of this forum told me Perdomo was kept on to do little CIA jobs.

What a strange coincidence.

Kathy

[Jim Glover]

Did you know that a Cuban Exile who survived the Bay of Pigs was on guard duty the night John Lennon was killed? In Cuba he was known as San Jenis. When he was at the Dakota, he went by the name Jose Perdomo. A member of this forum told me Perdomo was kept on to do little CIA jobs.

What a strange coincidence.

Kathy

Wow Kathy, I should have guessed eh?

I just looked up the RFK case cause I figured since Phil was workin for him he would probably have been at the Ambassador to celebrate Roberts big victory and the last Words Robert said were "on to Chicago!". Well now I know why Phil put on his tomestone record cover "Died in Chicago"

The police Chiief in LA is CIA, Sirhan's hynotist is CIA contract, the Lady in the Polka dot dress is KKK with Mob, FBI connections and others like every weirdo in the war on Hippies.

[Jim Glover]

Yes Kathy....they definatly did not like us.

I was just tryin to find where I heard Phil singin for John Lennon in a motel room during benifit for John Sinclear.

He was busted for pot.

Actually Phil and I had a big disagreement about that. I am for decriminalization. the drug War is just another way to fund the chaos.

Phil thought that John Lennon was a bad influenece on the movement because Nixon was making us out to be just a bunch of pot heads...

I wonder now which is more dangerous...then or now?

What am I thinking! there is only Now and foreever.

I could post scary Documents like northwoods like how the Joint Chiefs and all the branches were trying to come up with many ways to make it look like Cuba started a confrontation so that they could invade Cuba full scale right under JFK's nose.

OK. I talked me into it if you are curious.

http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/Scann...0NORTHWOODS.pdf

But all that is history Folks....

This is now.

I just had to send a fellow Peace activist from here in Florida this letter:

"Hi Sami,

We were both at Peace rallies in Tampa and I was that Folk singer leading "We shall free Sami" out side the Jail House ...Man that was a big House.

As a fellow freedom fighter and as a Jew who has been through many tests where I survived also, I think you are aware that you really have won.

Your whole family and even all the world has shared your torture by this war criminal George Bush.

You and your great family have not only survived but you are triumphant and will be victims no longer. I think like our shared forefather Abraham, Your family will be champions and leaders for a new hope of peace and justice in the world.

I think the good folks of Egypt will see your wisdom and suffering as new opportunity for our little planet.

I hope we can keep in touch because you are really free now....We have won and our tormentor who has tormented our little planet well have to account some day.

God is Great!

Hope we can meet some day and I'll pay for the drinks...

Jim"

PS we saw the movie "US verses Sami Al Arian" and it blew us away.

Best wishes, Jim

[Myra Bronstein]

...

The police Chiief in LA is CIA, Sirhan's hynotist is CIA contract, the Lady in the Polka dot dress is KKK with Mob, FBI connections and others like every weirdo in the war on Hippies.

What do you know about the lady in the polka dot dress Jim?

I didn't think anything was known about her.

Edited June 23, 2007 by Myra Bronstein

[Jim Glover]

...

The police Chiief in LA is CIA, Sirhan's hynotist is CIA contract, the Lady in the Polka dot dress is KKK with Mob, FBI connections and others like every weirdo in the war on Hippies.

What do you know about the lady in the polka dot dress Jim?

I didn't think anything was known about her.

I don't have any personal knowledge of the RFK case, I found the above info on googleing it so today I tried again http://www.google.com/search?client=safari...-8&oe=UTF-8

Actually I was relived that the description did not match Jean's. Also Jean and Phil were well enough known to have been recognized I am sure. forgot to record the articles but there maybe more on "Girl" instead of Lady in Polka dot dress.

I always had this in my mind that Jean had a polka dot dress....but I am not sure. And she would not want to hurt RFK anymore than Phil or I would.

since we were all set up for the JFK assassination in one form or another, for the purpose of confusion it is possible that there were other ladies in Polka dot dresses... and one report said that there were others in polka dot dresses...don't know which though....But I can imagine certain ladies in LA hiding their polka dot dresses after that report came out. Maybe Hoover had one too.

Just talked to Jean and she was not at the Ambassador and was surprised to learn about the new info on RFK's secret investigation in "Brothers" and that Phil was working with his campaign for president. She does think that she also had a Polka dot dress though.... Glad I got that cleared up.

[Jim Glover]

Thanks Jim.

What, if anything, did Phil change about his life/career/songwriting/performing after he got the psy-ops message of the attack? Are you aware of other such attacks on prominent artists of the era?

I'm starting to understand the true nature of the CIA's Operation CHAOS (for a while in conjunction with the FBI's COINTELPRO), and leaning towards believing that it targeted singers and songwriters. Then again I've long been convinced that the gov't murdered John Lennon so I don't need much convincing.

June 16 - 18: The Monterey International Pop Music Festival takes place. Over 200,000 people attend. It is often regarded as the precursor to Woodstock. It likely alarms both the FBI & the CIA. David Crosby, of the Byrds, tells the crowd that the Warren Report is a lie & that JFK was killed by many guns in a conspiracy. He then dedicates a song, "He Was a Friend of Mine," to him.

August: LBJ dramatically boosts CIA's illegal spying on US citizens, ongoing since 1959, so he can keep tabs on anti-war activists. The program will soon be named Operation CHAOS.

FBI's COINTELPRO program is ongoing at that point.

Three "Radicals" have slipped our memories here. Abbie Hoffman, dying from an overdose of phenolbarbital. Jerry Rubin dying while jaywalking. Somewhat of a friend to John Lennon. And then there's Hunter Thompson, supposedly shooting himself in the head. Thompson wrote a book about the Hell's Angels. In his last year, some people believe he witnessed or filmed a human sacrifice in Bohemian Grove, a place where certain politicians more or less turn their soul over to the devil and undergo the burning of their consciences.

And about Sal Mineo -- he was gay. That could have played a part. I have never been convinced that the black man whom they blamed, really killed Sal Mineo.

Other journalists: Dorothy Kilgallen, dead from mixing sleeping pills and alcohol. Was writing a book about the Assassination conspiracy. Irv Kupcinet -- questioned a mob member about Jack Ruby, as soon as he saw Ruby shoot Oswald. Four days later Irv's daughter was murdered by compression of her left carotid artery, or by a karate chop. Jim Koethe -- also killed by karate chop. He was a reporter and gay and may have known too much about Ruby.

Kathy

...ah 'good old' Op CHAOS...still ongoing. Hoffman [if I remember correctly] had someone mess around wiht his master brake valve of his car and a nearly fatal crash before he died 'otherwise' though not depressed. Kilgallan was 99% murdered after interview with Ruby and she gave notes to a friend who died shortly there after. I remember SDS meetings and others full of provocateurs, creeps, spooks, and worse.....The list is endless, Jessica Savitch, Karen Silkwood, disruption of many many groups and movements, demos, MOVE, Back Panthers, more by the truckload, tampering with and promotion of drugs, promoting violence in otherwise peacfull groups and setting them up by 'violent' goon plants and false evidence...still goes on in Enviornmental and animal rights and peace groups. I could go on all day listing Cassalero and others who all too mysteriously and conveniently died during investigations that someone didn't want known. I know JFK researchers who died mysteriously too and am working on this angle just now.

Peter, I always wondered about the death of the photographer James Altgens because he and his wife were found dead in their house.

I haven't found anything about the autopsy but from an article I saved from St Pete times DEC 15, 1995.

"the Bodies of Mr Altgens and his wife Clara, were found Tuesday at their home in Dallas, according to an employee of Sparkman-Hillcrest Funeral Home. Autopsies were ordered and toxicology tests were under way....said Laurie Nazzreno of the Dallas County medical examiners office"

I guess it may have been a coincidence that they were found dead together but I wonder...

Phil's voice was much lower after he told me he was strangled in Africa and when he played the Quiet knight in Chicago around 74 I asked him while we were shooting pool in the back room with Arlo and Bob Gibson if he would say anything about bein in Dallas in 63 and he said "listen to my second set".

I was disappointed because I didn't hear him say anything concrete but when I heard a tape of the show a few years ago, it seems he was hinting at the trip in a special version of the song called "one Way ticket home". In that version he does not sing about the king Elvis which is what everybody thinks the song is about but he just sings I was there at the crowning. but I kinda got the analogy just like Crusifixion is about the crown of thorns of Jesus "King of the Jews".

But hear are the lyrics for commercial use but in the version he sang at the Quiet knight there is no Elvis at all and the king is the question.

When I read in the Warren report about a witness at the Texas Theater he tells about a man who was there that just looked at him but said nothing and I wonder maybe they dropped Phil off there along with two Oswalds.

this is ike the version he sang in Chicago except he does not mention Elvis at all who one would think is the subject

of the song but without Elvis it could be about Camelot.

I'd like a one-way ticket home, ticket home

Em A D D

Where I can watch television, talk on the telephone

Em A D

But every town I wander there's a billboard on a throne

A7

Ticket home

D

I want a ticket home

Em A D G

Does anybody know my name, or recognize my face

Em A D G

I must have come from somewhere, but I can't recall the place

Em A D G

they dropped me at the matinee, they left without a trace

A7

Ticket home

D

I want a ticket home

G D

Elvis Presley is the king, I was at his crowning

E G A

My life just flashed before my eyes, I must be drowning

Seems like only yesterday I climbed aboard the plane

Raping distance in the skies, while diving in champagne

I would be in exile now, but everywhere's the same

Ticket home

I want a ticket home

Elvis Presley is the king, I was at his crowning

My life just flashed before my eyes, I must be drowning

Seems like only yesterday I climbed aboard the plane

Raping distance in the sky, while diving in champagne

I would be in exile now, but everywhere's the same

Ticket home

I want a ticket home

So after what happened to Bobby, he was not about to give more than hints just like Crucifixion was the code for JFK, The "Bay of Pigs" was Nixon's code for JFK during Watergate.

[John Dolva]

"Jerry Rubin ... Somewhat of a friend to John Lennon." ? - John describes meeting Jerry with some trepidation. In a short time, he recognised, what he already knew in principle, that the persona created by the Media is frequently different from the truth, and saw in Jerry a true artist, Jerry responded that he saw in John a true revolutionary. Jerry, and other people John and Yoko met in NY were a significant part of John 'falling in love' with NYC.

"Peter, I always wondered about the death of the photographer James Altgens because he and his wife were found dead in their house. I haven't found anything about the autopsy but from an article I saved from St Pete times DEC 15, 1995.

"the Bodies of Mr Altgens and his wife Clara, were found Tuesday at their home in Dallas, according to an employee of Sparkman-Hillcrest Funeral Home. Autopsies were ordered and toxicology tests were under way....said Laurie Nazzreno of the Dallas County medical examiners office" "

I understand the verdict was carbon monoxide poisoning. (If found in the house and not in a car, there are precedents in murder where a hose is introduced through an opening into a closed room like a bed room for example.)

http://hyderabadin.org/wiki-Bob_Dylan

"By 1963, Dylan and Baez were both prominent in the civil rights movement, singing together at rallies including the March on Washington where Martin Luther King, Jr. gave his "I have a dream" speech.Dylan performed "Only a Pawn in their Game" and "When the Ship Comes In"... His next album, "The Times They Are a-Changin", reflected a more sophisticated, politicized and cynical Dylan...The Brechtian-influenced "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" describes a young socialite's killing of a hotel maid. The song never explicitly mentions race, but many sources wrote it leaves no doubt that the killer is white, the victim black....

By the end of 1963, Dylan felt both manipulated and constrained by the folk-protest movement. Accepting the "Tom Paine Award" from the National Emergency Civil Liberties Committee at a ceremony shortly after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, a drunken, rambling Dylan questioned the role of the committee, insulted its members as old and balding, and claimed to see something of himself (and of every man) in assassin Lee Harvey Oswald..."

"You said you'd never compromise

With the mystery tramp, but now you realize

He's not selling any alibis

As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes

And ask him do you want to make a deal?"

[Jim Glover]

"Jerry Rubin ... Somewhat of a friend to John Lennon." ? - John describes meeting Jerry with some trepidation. In a short time, he recognised, what he already knew in principle, that the persona created by the Media is frequently different from the truth, and saw in Jerry a true artist, Jerry responded that he saw in John a true revolutionary. Jerry, and other people John and Yoko met in NY were a significant part of John 'falling in love' with NYC.

"Peter, I always wondered about the death of the photographer James Altgens because he and his wife were found dead in their house. I haven't found anything about the autopsy but from an article I saved from St Pete times DEC 15, 1995.

"the Bodies of Mr Altgens and his wife Clara, were found Tuesday at their home in Dallas, according to an employee of Sparkman-Hillcrest Funeral Home. Autopsies were ordered and toxicology tests were under way....said Laurie Nazzreno of the Dallas County medical examiners office" "

I understand the verdict was carbon monoxide poisoning. (If found in the house and not in a car, there are precedents in murder where a hose is introduced through an opening into a closed room like a bed room for example.)

http://hyderabadin.org/wiki-Bob_Dylan

"By 1963, Dylan and Baez were both prominent in the civil rights movement, singing together at rallies including the March on Washington where Martin Luther King, Jr. gave his "I have a dream" speech.Dylan performed "Only a Pawn in their Game" and "When the Ship Comes In"... His next album, "The Times They Are a-Changin", reflected a more sophisticated, politicized and cynical Dylan...The Brechtian-influenced "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" describes a young socialite's killing of a hotel maid. The song never explicitly mentions race, but many sources wrote it leaves no doubt that the killer is white, the victim black....

By the end of 1963, Dylan felt both manipulated and constrained by the folk-protest movement. Accepting the "Tom Paine Award" from the National Emergency Civil Liberties Committee at a ceremony shortly after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, a drunken, rambling Dylan questioned the role of the committee, insulted its members as old and balding, and claimed to see something of himself (and of every man) in assassin Lee Harvey Oswald..."

"You said you'd never compromise

With the mystery tramp, but now you realize

He's not selling any alibis

As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes

And ask him do you want to make a deal?"

----------------

Thanks John, you are jogging my memories.

I always wondered if Phil told Dylan the whole story. I wonder if Phil and Dylan's first manager, Albert Grossman knew because he was his manager when Phil went to Dallas.

Here is what I recently found and sent to John Simkin that makes me wonder even more.

"I just found something I forgot about Phil....Al Grossman was his earlyest manager...Phil used to say Grossman was the smartest and he was in awe and kind of feared Grossman in the sense that Phil got nervous in his presence.

Now a few weeks ago when I was trying to pin down exactly where the first Hootenanny tour bus was when JFK was shot....One of the singers in the group the Yaghtsmen said "the gig in Dallas was cancelled Just before we left LA".

That made me think maybe I was not the only one who had pre knowledge...so when I got back the records from the library at SMU in Dallas, an early summer article said Peter Paul and Mary will be appearing Nov 22.

So when I followed up on that I thought "OK JFK was killed and then there should be an announcement that due to the Assassination, the Gig was cancelled.

But I found out that was not the case.

As late as Nov 8th there was an announcement that the date was now Nov 23 and then another that that gig was cancelled due to the Assassination...Strange that the concert only had a two week notice!

PP&M were big stars and not on our Little star Tour which was advertised in Corpus Christie comming on Nov 5th as being possibly the same as the TV Show.....There was a Folk scare in the Month before JFK was killed in that modern Folk music was goin to be in Texas and Southern colleges for the first time.

The FBI mentions in the beginning of Phil Och's files that Folk singers and subversives were the same bunch.

This does not prove anything but if Phil and I knew and the man who talked me into going on the Hootenanny tour knew that JfK was going to be killed even if He only knew because I told him ..but he did say "I know and that is why we want you to go...but don't write anything down or interfere because it is too dangerous"

Well, It seems that the record shows to me anyway that there is now circumstantial evidence that Albert Grossman as well as others in Show biz would have heard about the rumor which turned out to be true.

Another interesting thing is that Jim and Jean (me and my ex wife) were not listed as being on the Tour at all....I guess if we had to be taken care of, who would know we were anywhere at the time."

************

When we were Back at Ohio State, Phil would read me articles about the defection of Lee Harvey Oswald and I would say "yes I have thought of goin to Russia too".

Just like "the Family Jewels" released yesterday by the CIA, Phil told me that the CIA would assassinate Castro. I didn't think they could actually do it.. we bet 5 bucks on that but Phil never paid me on that one. I don't even think that Phil thought for sure that Oswald was a real Defector...I Didn't.

Phil and Sam Hood at the GasLight were kind of excited when they read that someone took a pot shot at General Walker in Dallas because it was the first time in history that a left winger (we supposed) showed some balls. Ruth Pain thinks this proves Oswald shot JFK, but the police report waas that there were two other men with a car .

Oswald didn't drive, remember? and how is he gonna get his rifle back home...on a bus?

Here is a letter I just got from a friend from Ohio State about RFK and JFK....He also was Physically attacked for his research.

They hit him on the head with a brick and told him to get out of DC.

"Jim:

It's your old friend Rusty from Columbus. If you remember, I told you about the RFK assassination - Bobby had always suspected a combination of the Mafia, Cuban exiles and ex-CIA due to Bobby's crackdown on the Mafia and the failed Cuban expedition. He had mentioned to someone that the first thing he was going to do once elected was open an investigation - next thing you know he's gone. It was widely accepted in Washington and well known when I worked for Mark Lane. Nothing really new.

Rusty"

------

I guess there are no real secrets anymore.

I hope somebody tells me something in the Family Jewels that we didn't already know when it was goin down.

Jim

[Myra Bronstein]

"Jerry Rubin ... Somewhat of a friend to John Lennon." ? - John describes meeting Jerry with some trepidation. In a short time, he recognised, what he already knew in principle, that the persona created by the Media is frequently different from the truth, and saw in Jerry a true artist, Jerry responded that he saw in John a true revolutionary. Jerry, and other people John and Yoko met in NY were a significant part of John 'falling in love' with NYC.

"Peter, I always wondered about the death of the photographer James Altgens because he and his wife were found dead in their house. I haven't found anything about the autopsy but from an article I saved from St Pete times DEC 15, 1995.

"the Bodies of Mr Altgens and his wife Clara, were found Tuesday at their home in Dallas, according to an employee of Sparkman-Hillcrest Funeral Home. Autopsies were ordered and toxicology tests were under way....said Laurie Nazzreno of the Dallas County medical examiners office" "

I understand the verdict was carbon monoxide poisoning. (If found in the house and not in a car, there are precedents in murder where a hose is introduced through an opening into a closed room like a bed room for example.)

http://hyderabadin.org/wiki-Bob_Dylan

"By 1963, Dylan and Baez were both prominent in the civil rights movement, singing together at rallies including the March on Washington where Martin Luther King, Jr. gave his "I have a dream" speech.Dylan performed "Only a Pawn in their Game" and "When the Ship Comes In"... His next album, "The Times They Are a-Changin", reflected a more sophisticated, politicized and cynical Dylan...The Brechtian-influenced "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" describes a young socialite's killing of a hotel maid. The song never explicitly mentions race, but many sources wrote it leaves no doubt that the killer is white, the victim black....

By the end of 1963, Dylan felt both manipulated and constrained by the folk-protest movement. Accepting the "Tom Paine Award" from the National Emergency Civil Liberties Committee at a ceremony shortly after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, a drunken, rambling Dylan questioned the role of the committee, insulted its members as old and balding, and claimed to see something of himself (and of every man) in assassin Lee Harvey Oswald..."

"You said you'd never compromise

With the mystery tramp, but now you realize

He's not selling any alibis

As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes

And ask him do you want to make a deal?"

I got the impression from watching US vs John Lennon

(http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=777046699234389996&q=The+U.S.+versus+John+Lennon)

that towards the end Lennon and Ono felt used and mistreated by Rubin.

Apparently Hoffman & Rubin committed Lennon & Ono to protesting at the Republican National Convention (in Fla?) at a time when Lennon/Ono were realizing that their lives were in danger from their political outspokenness, and they refused to be manipulated into going to the convention.

John expressed anger about it on Mike Douglas's show, and Yoko talked about it in footage near the end of the movie.

[Jim Glover]

I got the impression from watching US vs John Lennon

(http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=777046699234389996&q=The+U.S.+versus+John+Lennon)

that towards the end Lennon and Ono felt used and mistreated by Rubin.

Apparently Hoffman & Rubin committed Lennon & Ono to protesting at the Republican National Convention (in Fla?) at a time when Lennon/Ono were realizing that their lives were in danger from their political outspokenness, and they refused to be manipulated into going to the convention.

John expressed anger about it on Mike Douglas's show, and Yoko talked about it in footage near the end of the movie.

Yes Myra,

I always felt manipulated by the Yippies too.

Our manager got us booked into Chicago during the convention and we heard by the grapevine that there would be violence.

Was the CIA and FBI manipulating the movement?

That was their Job!

I remember about 4 serious guys came to our apartment at 55 leroy in the village while Jean was out (the typical pattern) and told me that Kissinger was paying Phil.

I knew that Phil was doing secret work for some outfit so what could I say?

Years later, at Phil's place in LA after his friend who picked me at the airport and briefed me about the Hollywood connection to JFK, and showed me a photo of a man who looked like Lee on the Bus tour as we reached Dallas on the way to Key West, (the man was said to be driving the station wagon that picked up one of the Oswalds) and like a fool I have been looking for him ever since, I told Phil that "some guys said you were working for Kissinger".

Phil was mad and told me he was working for an up and coming general in the Air Force....as if Kissinger would be out of the Loop.

Phil was deluding himself that he was working for the Good Guys and I think that his general friend also thought that too...goes to show you how gullible we get when we hope we are doin good.

I was having lunch at the Latin Restaurant yesterday (Family Jewels day) and ordered my usual Half Cuban with soup and I hears a loud banging from some men at the table behind and to my left but I didn't turn around to look as I was reading and when they left I noticed that the tallest one sure looks a lot like Lee Odom or Odum (could be an alias) that i saw on the Bus around Dallas and also at the Brandon Library 1990, when My girl friend who's Dad was CIA was getting a book out about Felix Rodrigus. This look a like had grey hair by now and his hook nose was even longer. I watched as they left and outside a younger man gave him a kiss on the cheek and they got in a car and left and later one of the men he was with walked by the window and was wearing some kind of big earpiece in his right ear.

It could have been Lee or his double, but I am facinated by it all.

They always seem to come to me.

Jim

[Kathleen Collins]

[quote name='Myra Bronstein' post='106921' date='Jun 22 2007, 05:54 PM'

by chance on www.WBAI.org today on Bob Fass' show he had a friend of Ochs telling that it was NOT a strangulation - but a chop to the vocal cord area of his neck and that Phil considered it an attack on his means of making a living.

Thank you, Peter, for letting people know there is a method these spies will use -- karate chop. You said Phil Ochs felt he was hit by that to the throat so he wouldn't be able to sing anymore. I heard this rumor years ago and never looked into it: Bob Dylan's career slid after a motorcycle accident in which his throat was injured. After that, his singing got real weird.

Kathy

[Jim Glover]

[quote name='Myra Bronstein' post='106921' date='Jun 22 2007, 05:54 PM'

by chance on www.WBAI.org today on Bob Fass' show he had a friend of Ochs telling that it was NOT a strangulation - but a chop to the vocal cord area of his neck and that Phil considered it an attack on his means of making a living.

Thank you, Peter, for letting people know there is a method these spies will use -- karate chop. You said Phil Ochs felt he was hit by that to the throat so he wouldn't be able to sing anymore. I heard this rumor years ago and never looked into it: Bob Dylan's career slid after a motorcycle accident in which his throat was injured. After that, his singing got real weird.

Kathy

Hi Kathy,

Psew I am glad that there is a good chance that Lee Odum, Odom if that is his real name, is alive and well.

amazing that after all the murders there are still some of us around who have pieces of the puzzle.

Getting back to my old friend Phil Ochs.

He didn't mention Karate chops but can someone who might have passed out remember everything?

I mean if someone like a doctor examined Phil and said it was a chop I don't think Phil would have held that bit of spectacular adventure out of the pictrue that he told me and authhors, like Marc Elliot I would assume.

But yes there will always be mysteries about these things and that is cool with me because once I know all the answers, I will really be useless and nobody would want to to even talk to me.

Our friend Wendy Winstead told me that he damaged his chords from trying to hang is self from a balcony but the whatever he used for a rope ...broke,,,So that is all I can tell ya and you all get to decide what it all means for yourselves.

I am glad to be able to share these memories with you ...this is great therapy for my stress in these memories....I mean we just learned that the photogrpher who took the best picture of JFK bein hit in the throat is found dead with his wife in Dallas of Carbon Monixcide......and what he told the WC was not what the cover-up wanted you to ever know.

Gotta go now at the Mosque for a going away party for Nahla and her wonderful family.

They are tired of Bush's persecution and will go to live in Egypt in there search for peace and happiness.

Love, Jim

[Jim Glover]

Middle-Eastern and Moslem friends are leaving.....many non-Muslims [myself included] felt the better part of valor and sanity/survival involved being outside for now. Land of peace and happiness - or opportunity and dignity it is for fewer and fewer and fewer by the day....but I digress....

I'd suggest you contact Bob Fass via email trough WBAI radio in NYC and get the name and contact for the protest singer who knew Phil and you likely know and ask him where he got his info on the attack. Am I correct that Phil thought it was a targeted attack and not a random mugging of a tourist? There have been so many of those types of things [yes, all the way up to murder] to send a 'message'....the message is always the same..shut-up, be a sheep, follow the 'program' of the corporation-masters, don't think for yourself, don't questions and don't tell anything not officially branded [word chosen on purpose by me] the 'truth', stay in line little person - or else! Sadly, like a third-rate old-time gangster movie "The Mr. Big told Bugsy and me to teach you a lesson...."

Peter,

Thanks for the suggestion to contact Bob Fass. It has been the late 60's since I talked with him.

Well Just like what Happened to my friend Rusty it is safer for them to terrorize, than eliminate witnesses....but they did both didn't they?

They had us pretty scared for a long time....I think they are now scared of their own methods.

Phil made a point to me about the fact that 3 men jumped him and strangled him and took his only means of self defense, his knife.

Sure they could have chopped him in the neck also ....Wendy knew about the other incident somehow but they all could be true. Wendy died of cancer.

I just remembered the first words of the special version Phil sang in Chicago in reply to my request to say something about Dallas, was: "The Golden Idol is the King, I was at his crowning

My life just flashed before my eyes, I must be Drowning."

I don't think he would be thinking of his death in a song about Elvis.

Or why he would need a one way ticket home from an Elvis Concert.

Jim

[Kathleen Collins]

Sure they could have chopped him in the neck also ....Wendy knew about the other incident somehow but they all could be true. Wendy died of cancer.

I just remembered the first words of the special version Phil sang in Chicago in reply to my request to say something about Dallas, was: "The Golden Idol is the King, I was at his crowning

My life just flashed before my eyes, I must be Drowning."

I don't think he would be thinking of his death in a song about Elvis.

Or why he would need a one way ticket home from an Elvis Concert.

Jim

******************************************************

Is that a song about Elvis? It could be about President Kennedy.

Kathy