Nixon Operative Roger Stone on JFK Assassination: "LBJ had it done. Mob, CIA, Hoover, all in on it. RFK knew. So did Nixon."

[Cliff Varnell]

Let’s not forget that despite some failed attempts at revisionist history here not only did JFK back the Diem coup but so did his only two anti-war advisors George Ball and J.K. Galbraith.

Len, it wasn't as simple as that.

Ellen J. Hammer, A Death in November: America in Vietnam 1963, pgs 177-80 (emphasis in the original):

Washington, August 24, 1963

A handful of men in the State Department and the White House had been awaiting an opportunity to encourage the Vietnamese army to move against the [Diem] government. They intended to exploit the latest crisis [massive raids on Buddhist pagodas August 21] in Saigon to the full. "Averell [Harriman] and Roger [Hilsman] now agree that we must move before the situation in Saigon freezes," Michael Forrestal of the White House staff wrote in a memorandum to President Kennedy.

..."Harriman, Hilsman and I favor taking...action now," Forrestal informed the president. Kennedy was at his Hyannis Port residence in Massachusetts for the weekend. The three men had drafted a cable of their own to [uS Ambassador to South Vietnam Henry Cabot] Lodge. The substance, according to Forrestal, had been generally agreed to by [commander in chief of Pacific Command (CINCPAC)] Admiral [Harry D.] Felt. "Clearances [are] being obtained from [Acting Secretary of State] Ball and [the Department of] Defense...Will advise you reactions Ball and Defense, but suggest you let me know if you wish comment or hold-up action." A copy of their draft was dispatched to the president.

This would become Department of State telegram No. 243.

It stated that the American government could not tolerate a situation in which power lay in [Diem brother and head of SVN secret police] Nhu's hands. Military leaders were to be informed that the United States would find it impossible to continue military and economic support to the government unless prompt dramatic actions were taken by Diem to redress Buddhist grievances and remove the Nhus from the scene...Ambassador and country team should urgently examine all possible alternative leadership and make detailed plans as to how we might bring about Diem's replacement if this should become necessary...

...Harriman and Hilsman were determined to send their cable that very day. They found Acting Secretary of State [George] Ball on the golf course, and he telephoned the president in Hyannis Port. Kennedy made no difficulty about giving his approval, assuming that the appropriate officials agreed.

After the call to Kennedy the rest was simple. Ball telephoned [secretary of State Dean] Rusk in New York and told him the president had already agreed, and Rusk gave his own unenthusiastic endorsement. When Roswell Gilpatric (McNamara's deputy at Defense) was called at home by Forrestal, he too was told that Kennedy had cleared the telegram and he was assured that Rusk had seen it. Gilpatric reluctantly gave the clearance of the Department of Defense but was concerned enough about the substance of the cable and the way it had been handled to alert General Taylor, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Taylor sent for a copy of the cable. When he read it, his first reaction was that the anti-Diemists in the State Department had taken advantage of the absence of the principal officials to get out instructions that would never have been approved as written under ordinary circumstances. John McCone also was out of town, and rather than try to locate him Harriman had reached Richard Helms, who provided the clearance of the Central Intelligence Agency.

With the president's approval State Department telegram 243 was dispatched to Saigon at 9:36 P.M. on August 24.

John Kennedy would regard this as a major mistake on his part, according to his brother Robert. "He had passed it off too quickly over the weekend at the Cape--he had thought it was cleared by McNamara and Taylor and everyone at State. In fact, it was Harriman, Hilsman and Mike Forrestal at the White House and they were all the ones who were strongly for a coup. Harriman was particularly strong for a coup.

Although the August coup wasn't mounted, the So Vietnamese generals had received the American go-ahead for their plotting against Diem and is brother Nhu.

Telegram 243 was essentially a "palace coup," the usurpation of American foreign policy in SE Asia led by W. Averell Harriman. Lodge, Hilsman, Forrestal and Bundy were Harriman's tools.

ibid, pg 185:

Washington, August 26-27, 1963

...In the cool halls of the White House the hectic plotting of the weekend took on an air of unreality. Robert Kennedy had talked with Taylor and McNamara and discovered that "nobody was behind it, nobody knew what we were going to do, nobody knew what our policy was; it hadn't been discussed, as everything else had been discussed since the Bay of Pigs in full detail before we did anything--nothing like that had been done before the decision made on Diem, and so by Tuesday we were trying to pull away from that policy..."

President Kennedy belatedly realized that no one had spelled out to him the ramifications of the policy he had approved so lightly. He was irritated at the disagreement among his advisers. Taylor, McNamara, and McCone all were critical of the attempt to run a coup in Saigon. Even Rusk seemed to have second thoughts. "The government was split in two," Robert Kennedy recalled. "It was the only time really in three years, the government was broken in two in a very disturbing way."

ibid, page 198, quoting Robert Kennedy:

"The result [of the cable of August 24] is we started down a road from which we never really recovered...[uS Vietnam military commander General Paul] Harkins was against it and Lodge wasn't talking to Harkins. So Henry Cabot Lodge started down one direction, the State Department was rather in the middle, and they suddenly called off the coup. Then the next five or six weeks we were all concerned about whether they were going to have a coup, who was going to win the coup, and who was going to replace the government. Nobody ever really had any of the answers to any of these things...the President was trying to get rid of Henry Cabot Lodge...The policy he [Lodge] was following was based on that original policy that had been made and then rescinded...that Averell Harriman was responsible for..."

Harriman was conducting his own foreign policy in 1963. He boxed Kennedy in and set the wheels in motion among the So. Vietnamese military, the State Dept. and the White House.

Here's a cable Kennedy sent to Lodge on August 29 (from the Church Comm. Report on the Diem coup):

http://25thaviation.org/history/id549.htm

I have approved all the messages you are receiving from others today, and I emphasize that everything in these messages has my full support. We will do all that we can to help you conclude this operation successfully. Until the very moment of the go signal for the operation by the Generals, I must reserve a contingent right to change course and reverse previous instructions. While fully aware of your assessment of the consequences of such a reversal, I know from experience that failure is more destructive than an appearance of indecision. I would, of course, accept full responsibility for any such change as I must also bear the full responsibility for this operation and its consequences.

This tells me Kennedy was struggling to re-gain control of US policy in So Vietnam, but he eventually went along with the coup plans Lodge was stoking -- even though he wanted to fire Lodge! Once the USG signaled a willingness to support a coup, Diem's time grew short.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Cliff Varnell

[Len Colby]

This tells me Kennedy was struggling to re-gain control of US policy in So Vietnam, but he eventually went along with the coup plans Lodge was stoking -- even though he wanted to fire Lodge! Once the USG signaled a willingness to support a coup, Diem's time grew short.

To make a long story short though the ‘JFK could do no wrong crowd’ could claim some of his advisors gamed him, the undisputed (except by Jim D.) facts are that the president was made fully aware of the cable’s contents and approved them.

Did Hammer provide a source for her claims that Taylor, McCone, McNamara and Rusk were lukewarm at best? Despite RFK's claim that his brother “had thought it was cleared by McNamara and Taylor and everyone at State” according to Forrestal (as quoted by you above) he was told "Clearances [are] being obtained from [Acting Secretary of State] Ball and [the Department of] Defense”. George Ball as quoted in Howard Jones’ Death of a Generation said the same thing and he "went over the entire matter by phone” with JFK . Jones quoted Rusk as saying "Well, go ahead. If the president understood the implications, would give a green light." Jones also indicated that Lodge was pushing for a delay in sending the cable. (All citation above Jones, pgs. 314 – 6).

http://www.amazon.com/Death-Generation-Assassinations-Prolonged-Vietnam/dp/0195176057#reader_0195176057

It’s not as if the matter was suddenly sprung on JFK while he was away for the weekend. The idea of deposing Diem had been discussed at least since Nov. 1961 when Galbraith pushed for this after visiting Vietnam at JFK’s behest. Some authors (IIRC Jones and Richard Reeves) have indicated that Lodge was selected in part because he would not stand in the way of a coup. According to John Prados:

“The documentary record is replete with evidence that President Kennedy and his advisers, both individually and collectively, had a considerable role in the coup overall, by giving initial support to Saigon military officers uncertain what the U.S. response might be, by withdrawing U.S. aid from Diem himself, and by publicly pressuring the Saigon government in a way that made clear to South Vietnamese that Diem was isolated from his American ally. In addition, at several of his meetings (Documents 7, 19, 22) Kennedy had CIA briefings and led discussions based on the estimated balance between pro- and anti-coup forces in Saigon that leave no doubt the United States had a detailed interest in the outcome of a coup against Ngo Dinh Diem.”

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB101/index.htm

Its notable though some have claimed JFK felt conned he did not punish those responsible or take any measures to reverse course. Diem was only overthrown 10 week after the cable was sent and JFK survived another three.

PS – I await your reply on the GG thread.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Len Colby

[Cliff Varnell]

This tells me Kennedy was struggling to re-gain control of US policy in So Vietnam, but he eventually went along with the coup plans Lodge was stoking -- even though he wanted to fire Lodge! Once the USG signaled a willingness to support a coup, Diem's time grew short.

To make a long story short though the ‘JFK could do no wrong crowd’ could claim some of his advisors gamed him, the undisputed (except by Jim D.) facts are that the president was made fully aware of the cable’s contents and approved them.

Did Hammer provide a source for her claims that Taylor, McCone, McNamara and Rusk were lukewarm at best?

--

Len, I'm in the middle of re-painting my pad and a lot of my books are inaccessible right now, given the chaos I've created here. This is a very important topic and I look forward to an amiable discussion with you. I don't have the Hammer book, or The Perils of Dominance by Gareth Porter, or the Newman book at my finger-tips right now, but as soon as I get re-organized I can better address your points and questions.

Two quick points on the above:

1) In my view it wasn't merely a matter of "some of his advisors" gaming JFK -- it was a power play by W. Averell Harriman, specifically. I think a little appreciated fact about the Kennedy administration is that as soon as JFK was elected Joe Kennedy brought Robert Lovett onto the transition team. Lovett turned down a cabinet post for himself, but evidently advised JFK to pick C. Douglas Dillon for Treasury, McNamara for Defense, and Rusk for State -- the three top positions in any Cabinet.

Robert Lovett was Harriman's childhood buddy. Harriman's father owned the Union Pacific Railroad and Lovett's pop ran it. Ave and Bob were Skull and Bones brothers. Jupiter Island neighbors. During WW2 Lovett worked with John McCloy and Harvey Bundy under Secretary of War Henry Stimson. McGeorge and William Bundy were Harvey's kids. All three Bundys were Skull and Bones.

In short, Kennedy was surrounded by Harrimanites.

I look forward to discussing all this with you, Len, now that our blades are sheathed.

2) You ask: "Did Hammer provide a source for her claims that Taylor, McCone, McNamara and Rusk were lukewarm at best?"

For now this will have to do:

http://whitehousetapes.net/clips/1963_1104_jfk_vietnam_memoir.swf

Here's the key quote in Kennedy's own voice:

"Opposed to the coup was General [Maxwell] Taylor, the Attorney General [Robert Kennedy], Secretary [Robert] McNamara to a somewhat lesser degree, John McCone, partly based on an old hostility to [Henry Cabot] Lodge [Jr.] which causes him to lack confidence in Lodge's judgment, partly as a result of a new hostility because Lodge shifted his [CIA] station chief; in favor of the coup was State, led by Averell Harriman, George Ball, Roger Hilsman, supported by Mike Forrestal at the White House."

The sadness in JFK's voice when he mentioned Forrestal is striking, I think. It's interesting that he doesn't mention Rusk.

Give me a week or so to organize my materials and we'll discuss further.

PS – I await your reply on the GG thread.

Soon! I got distracted recently by a buzzing lamson-fly, but I squashed that bug (again) and I can go back to swapping punk rock "war stories" with you soon.

[William Kelly]

Robert,

I think your tweet with Roger Stone is important.

The Ultimate Dirty Trickster recognizes what happened at Dealey Plaza as the Ultimate Dirty Trick.

Can we get some more Tweets from him? Ask him to join the fourm.

BK

JFKcountercoup

I recently emailed Roger Stone, Nixon confidant and longtime and notorious GOP operative, my essay 'LBJ-CIA Assassination of JFK." Or rather, I tweeted it to him.

My essay: http://lyndonjohnson...fk-updated.html

Here is Roger Stone's "tweet" back to me on January 9, 2012:

"LBJ had it done. Mob, CIA, Hoover, all in on it. RFK knew. So did Nixon."

This comes from a man who was very, very, very close to Richard Nixon. Obviously, I need to follow up on this but I thought I would share it with you first.

You can google "Roger Stone Richard Nixon" and learn more about Stone.

Roger Stone was very close to Nixon. I would not be surprised if he had personal, private talks with Nixon about the JFK assassination.

Stone even has a tattoo of Nixon on his upper back; that is how vested he is in Nixon.

Nixon knew the truth about what LBJ and CIA had done. In fact, that was his firewall defense in Watergate – don't investigate me or the "whole Bay of Pigs thing" is going to come out.

Nixon used to tell his operatives never, ever take any money from H.L. Hunt. I think one big reason for that was he knew that Hunt would then think he owned Nixon, and also Nixon was aware of Hunt's role in the JFK assassination.

There is another longtime GOP operative named Jack Wheeler – his web site is "To The Point News." Wheeler is a longtime GOP insider. Wheeler is also close friends with Jeb Bush. I once corresponded with Wheeler on this matter; he told me he had always suspected Lyndon Johnson in the JFK assassination.

Here is a brief bio of Roger Stone: http://biggovernment.../author/rstone/

Roger Stone:

Roger Stone is a legendary American Republican political consultant who has played a key role in the election of Republican presidents from Richard Nixon to Ronald Reagan to George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush.

Stone is credited with the public relations rehabilitation of President Richard M. Nixon after his resignation in 1974. Stone first worked for Nixon as Chairman of Connecticut Youth for Nixon/Agnew in 1968 and graduating to a position in Nixon's 1972 reelection campaign which won 49 out of 50 states.

In 1976 Stone was named National Director of Youth for Reagan, a division of Governor Ronald Reagan's 1976 Presidential campaign. In 1978, Stone co-founded the National Conservative Political Action Committee [NCPAC] where he is credited with developing the negative campaign into an art form and pioneering the use of negative campaign advertising which Mr. Stone calls "comparative, not negative."

Starting in 1979, Stone served as Regional Political Director for Governor Reagan's 1980 campaign for President handling New York, New Jersey and Connecticut, his native State. Stone became known for his expertise and strategies for motivating and winning ethnic and Catholic voters.

Stone went on to serve in the same capacity in Reagan's 1984 reelection campaign adding responsibility for Pennsylvania and Ohio to the states Stone managed in 1980. He went on to serve as a Senior Consultant for California for President George H. W. Bush's campaign.

In 2000 Stone is credited with the hard-ball tactics which resulted in closing down the Miami-Dade Presidential recount. Stone is credited in HBO's recent movie, "Recount 2000" with fomenting the so-called "Brooks Brothers Riot" in which a Republican mob swarmed the recount demanding a shutdown while thousands of Cuban-Americans marched outside the Courthouse demanding the same thing.

Stone has worked for numerous Republican US Senators like Senator Arlen Specter as well as pro-American political parties in Eastern Europe, Africa, and the Caribbean. He is consulted regularly on communications and corporate and public relations strategy by fortune 500 ECO's and pro-democracy foreign leaders.

Stone has been profiled in the Weekly Standard, The New Yorker, and the Miami Herald in 2007 and 2008. Mr. Stone has written for the New York Times Sunday Magazine, The New York Times Op Ed page and for Newsmax.com. He has appeared frequently on FOX News, NBC Nightly News, CNN, MSNBC, and the Today Show. Stone is the editor and publisher of STONEzone.com.

[Len Colby]

Len, I'm in the middle of re-painting my pad and a lot of my books are inaccessible right now, given the chaos I've created here. This is a very important topic and I look forward to an amiable discussion with you. I don't have the Hammer book, or The Perils of Dominance by Gareth Porter, or the Newman book at my finger-tips right now, but as soon as I get re-organized I can better address your points and questions.

Two quick points on the above:

1) In my view it wasn't merely a matter of "some of his advisors" gaming JFK -- it was a power play by W. Averell Harriman, specifically. I think a little appreciated fact about the Kennedy administration is that as soon as JFK was elected Joe Kennedy brought Robert Lovett onto the transition team. Lovett turned down a cabinet post for himself, but evidently advised JFK to pick C. Douglas Dillon for Treasury, McNamara for Defense, and Rusk for State -- the three top positions in any Cabinet.

Robert Lovett was Harriman's childhood buddy. Harriman's father owned the Union Pacific Railroad and Lovett's pop ran it. Ave and Bob were Skull and Bones brothers. Jupiter Island neighbors. During WW2 Lovett worked with John McCloy and Harvey Bundy under Secretary of War Henry Stimson. McGeorge and William Bundy were Harvey's kids. All three Bundys were Skull and Bones.

In short, Kennedy was surrounded by Harrimanites.

I look forward to discussing all this with you, Len, now that our blades are sheathed.

2) You ask: "Did Hammer provide a source for her claims that Taylor, McCone, McNamara and Rusk were lukewarm at best?"

For now this will have to do:

http://whitehousetapes.net/clips/1963_1104_jfk_vietnam_memoir.swf

Here's the key quote in Kennedy's own voice:

"Opposed to the coup was General [Maxwell] Taylor, the Attorney General [Robert Kennedy], Secretary [Robert] McNamara to a somewhat lesser degree, John McCone, partly based on an old hostility to [Henry Cabot] Lodge [Jr.] which causes him to lack confidence in Lodge's judgment, partly as a result of a new hostility because Lodge shifted his [CIA] station chief; in favor of the coup was State, led by Averell Harriman, George Ball, Roger Hilsman, supported by Mike Forrestal at the White House."

The sadness in JFK's voice when he mentioned Forrestal is striking, I think. It's interesting that he doesn't mention Rusk.

Give me a week or so to organize my materials and we'll discuss further.

PS – I await your reply on the GG thread.

Soon! I got distracted recently by a buzzing lamson-fly, but I squashed that bug (again) and I can go back to swapping punk rock "war stories" with you soon.

Perhaps you are right to a degree about it being “a power play by W. Averell Harriman” but you contradict yourself a bit, Dillion AFAIK had nothing to do with the coup, you cited Hammer who said Rusk and McNamara were against it and JFK confirmed this regarding the latter.

Ultimately however JFK cannot be absolved of responsibility, though perhaps manipulated he was fully aware of the cable’s contents and implications before approving it and did nothing to reverse course or fire those responsible over the course of the next 10 – 13 weeks respectively

My interpretation of the Aug. 29 cable is 180 degrees from yours how him saying “I have approved all the messages you are receiving from others today, and I emphasize that everything in these messages has my full support” help your case? And what about him telling Lodge “Until the very moment of the go signal for the operation by the Generals, I must reserve a contingent right to change course and reverse previous instructions.” But never revers[ing] previous instructions”?

JFK got lots of thing right, especially towards the end of his administration, but he was human and sometimes made mistakes, put politics ahead of principles or otherwise didn’t conform to the progressive image of him that he normally deserved.

At least you, unlike Jim D., acknowledge that JFK was aware of the cable an OKed the coup, he and a few other members seem to be unable to accept that 'St. Kennedy' could have done anything wrong.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Len Colby

[Scott Kaiser]

Center/Study of Political Assassinations

Thanks, Bill.

BTW, have you ever posted your thesis on the Bay of Pigs?

I did my thesis on the Bay of Pigs for a senior year Latin American History class under Dr. Bruce Taylor at the University of Dayton (Ohio), and no longer have a copy of it.

I have learned a lot about the Bay of Pigs since then however, and have changed my perspective of it from a covert op that got to big and out of hand, to one that was designed to fail.

The facts that the target beach was changed at the last minute from one near the mountains to the Bay of PIgs as well as the fact that it was well publicized before hand and John Martino, in a Cuban prison, knew the D-day date, certainly implies that the whole deal was doomed, and those who planned it planned it to fail.

Those who have an interest in understanding the assassination of President Kennedy must first know the basic background of some other historical events - especially the Guatemala Coup of 1954, the U2 incident, the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis, all of which are dominoes in the fall of JFK.

BK

JFKcountercoup

The facts that the target beach was changed at the last minute from one near the mountains to the Bay of PIgs as well as the fact that it was well publicized before hand and John Martino, in a Cuban prison, knew the D-day date, certainly implies that the whole deal was doomed, and those who planned it planned it to fail.

Many have now concluded or assumed the BOP was "design to fail". But let me tell you from talking to those who were directly involved will say otherwise, listen to yourselves? Who in their right mind creates a plan that is specifically design to fail? Here are the facts:

1. The D-Day dates had been changed a number of times due to preparations.

2. When the finial date was set, many were aware of the landing date weeks in advance set for April 17, 1961.

3. Several of the Brigade members including the CIA were convinced that the Cubans on the Island would revolt against Castro's army. When Castro fought in the initial Revolution against Batista, Castro only had less then 100 men, but when they overthrew Batista, Castro also inherited Batista's men, so when members of the 2506 Brigade contacted the NY Times News Paper they advised them of the invasion in advise. (How stupid is that? In war, I mean to notify the enemy you're coming)

4. There were mixed feelings towards Castro and his political views, remember Castro said that he would hold FREE elections, he talked a good talk about a FREE Cuba and the old dictator Batista was gone.

5. Cuba did NOT become Communist until AFTER the Bay of Pigs.

6. Finally the truth about the Bay of Pigs, it wasn't created, planed and invested 50 million dollars into a project that was suppose to fail, I'm not sure who came up with that idea or theory, but that's totally incorrect, it was specifically designed to create an uprising within Cuba to overthrow Castro, and replace him with Manuel Airtime, but what happen was it back fired, the CIA underestimated Castro's followers.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Scott Kaiser

[Harry J.Dean]

Center/Study of Political Assassinations

Thanks, Bill.

BTW, have you ever posted your thesis on the Bay of Pigs?

I did my thesis on the Bay of Pigs for a senior year Latin American History class under Dr. Bruce Taylor at the University of Dayton (Ohio), and no longer have a copy of it.

I have learned a lot about the Bay of Pigs since then however, and have changed my perspective of it from a covert op that got to big and out of hand, to one that was designed to fail.

The facts that the target beach was changed at the last minute from one near the mountains to the Bay of PIgs as well as the fact that it was well publicized before hand and John Martino, in a Cuban prison, knew the D-day date, certainly implies that the whole deal was doomed, and those who planned it planned it to fail.

Those who have an interest in understanding the assassination of President Kennedy must first know the basic background of some other historical events - especially the Guatemala Coup of 1954, the U2 incident, the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis, all of which are dominoes in the fall of JFK.

BK

JFKcountercoup

The facts that the target beach was changed at the last minute from one near the mountains to the Bay of PIgs as well as the fact that it was well publicized before hand and John Martino, in a Cuban prison, knew the D-day date, certainly implies that the whole deal was doomed, and those who planned it planned it to fail.

Many have now concluded or assumed the BOP was "design to fail". But let me tell you from talking to those who were directly involved will say otherwise, listen to yourselves? Who in their right mind creates a plan that is specifically design to fail? Here are the facts:

1. The D-Day dates had been changed a number of times due to preparations.

2. When the finial date was set, many were aware of the landing date weeks in advance set for April 17, 1961.

3. Several of the Brigade members including the CIA were convinced that the Cubans on the Island would revolt against Castro's army. When Castro fought in the initial Revolution against Batista, Castro only had less then 100 men, but when they overthrew Batista, Castro also inherited Batista's men, so when members of the 2506 Brigade contacted the NY Times News Paper they advised them of the invasion in advise. (How stupid is that? In war, I mean to notify the enemy you're coming)

4. There were mixed feelings towards Castro and his political views, remember Castro said that he would hold FREE elections, he talked a good talk about a FREE Cuba and the old dictator Batista was gone.

5. Cuba did NOT become Communist until AFTER the Bay of Pigs.

6. Finally the truth about the Bay of Pigs, it wasn't created, planed and invested 50 million dollars into a project that was suppose to fail, I'm not sure who came up with that idea or theory, but that's totally incorrect, it was specifically designed to create an uprising within Cuba to overthrow Castro, and replace him with Manuel Airtime, but what happen was it back fired, the CIA underestimated Castro's followers.

Sadly it is so that at least the CIA/FBI people I dealt with knew

what Cuban people would or would not do in the event of a U.S.

invasion of the Island.

Upon return from Cuba a few months prior to the April action against

Castro, I was debriefed by U.S. Intelligence. Here is the information

from the 1990 manuscript/book, CROSSTRAILS...

" At a later debriefing with Central Intelligence and my usual Internal

Security contact agent, when ask if I believed that the Cuban people

would rise against Castro during an invasion by the U.S.; I stated " It

is my sad duty to inform you that they will not attempt to aid in

overthrowing that government." Giving the reasons, and apologizing for

having to make such an unpopular report that suggested my relatively

dangerous and uncomfortable mission was unsuccessful."

[Len Colby]

I have learned a lot about the Bay of Pigs since then however, and have changed my perspective of it from a covert op that got to big and out of hand, to one that was designed to fail.

The facts that the target beach was changed at the last minute from one near the mountains to the Bay of PIgs as well as the fact that it was well publicized before hand and John Martino, in a Cuban prison, knew the D-day date, certainly implies that the whole deal was doomed, and those who planned it planned it to fail.

Where did you get your information from Bill?

1) The landing site was changed at the insistence of JFK, he said, "and so you must change the place", the Pentagon was not happy about the new plan.

http://books.google.com.br/books?id=4nYMuL5VIRQC&pg=PT52&lpg=PT52&dq=%22and+so+you+must+change+the+place%22&source=bl&ots=Mb48rZkoY8&sig=9XSUd2UW_xAzclZK5g7AzL8_htI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OLQaT4z4Bc-CtgeUnMmbCw&sqi=2&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22and%20so%20you%20must%20change%20the%20place%22&f=false

2) “Martino was captured during the Bay of Pigs invasion and held in a Cuban Prison for two years.” Which makes it very unlikely he was "in a Cuban prison" at the time the date was set.

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/Marsh/Jfk-conspiracy/Martino.txt

Those who have an interest in understanding the assassination of President Kennedy must first know the basic background of some other historical events - especially the Guatemala Coup of 1954, the U2 incident, the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis, all of which are dominoes in the fall of JFK.

You still haven't answered my previous question as to how events during his predecesor's presidency were "dominoes in the fall of JFK"

EDIT - Formatting

Edited January 21, 2012 by Len Colby

[William Kelly]

Hi Len, my response highlighted.

I have learned a lot about the Bay of Pigs since then however, and have changed my perspective of it from a covert op that got to big and out of hand, to one that was designed to fail.

The facts that the target beach was changed at the last minute from one near the mountains to the Bay of PIgs as well as the fact that it was well publicized before hand and John Martino, in a Cuban prison, knew the D-day date, certainly implies that the whole deal was doomed, and those who planned it planned it to fail.

Where did you get your information from Bill?

1) The landing site was changed at the insistence of JFK, he said, "and so you must change the place", the Pentagon was not happy about the new plan.

http://books.google....lace%22&f=false

BK: No he doesn't insist on changing the place, he insists on it maintaining its covert status - covert means secret - and he spells it out for them - he didn't want a D-Day Normandy type of invasion because it would not be "plausibly deniable" by the responsible party - the first tenant of a covert operation. If you read the whole book, and not just the one sentence you highlight, you should learn that others involved, specifically Jake Easterline and Col. Jack Hawkins USMC, both wanted to call off the whole thing.

It wasn't the place of the landing, it was the style, which could have been changed to the slow insertion of men a few at a time at various places or other such tactics. Even after two top commanders - Easterline and Hawkins - said it would fail because of the changes, they still went ahead with it anyway.

And did I read that they thought that the swamp was okay because Castro couldn't get his mechanized troops in their quick enough? Well, they should have known that new roads had been built to the swamps, something that ornithologist James Bond knew from having been there a few months previous.

You can still blame JFK if you want to, and he took the responsibility for the failure, and Dulles and Bissell took the fall, but the bottom line is the managers and the commanders knew the plan would fail before they went in and let it go.

2) "Martino was captured during the Bay of Pigs invasion and held in a Cuban Prison for two years." Which makes it very unlikely he was "in a Cuban prison" at the time the date was set.

http://karws.gso.uri...acy/Martino.txt

BK: It appears as if this is a HSCA research report for their investigators, before they conducted interviews, and its wrong, as Martino was not pat of the Bay of Pigs invasion, he's not even Cuban, he's an Italian mob guy from the Ducktown section of Atlantic City, listed in early FBI documents as an Atlantic City bookie in the gambling network of Philadelphia mob boss Angelo Bruno. He was a slot machine mechanic who became a specialist in casino security, recruited by Santo Traficante to handle security at his Havana casino, and busted for being a spy while passing through Cuban customs. He was in the Isle of Pines prison in April 1961, knew the invasion date and was released from prison with a group of Americans that may have included some Bay of Pigs prisoners.

My sources are Martino's sister and brother, who I interviewed at their Atlantic City home at the same time Tony Summers met with Martino's son and widow in Florida.

Those who have an interest in understanding the assassination of President Kennedy must first know the basic background of some other historical events - especially the Guatemala Coup of 1954, the U2 incident, the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis, all of which are dominoes in the fall of JFK.

You still haven't answered my previous question as to how events during his predecesor's presidency were "dominoes in the fall of JFK"

BK: Take the Bay of Pigs for example. The idea for the invasion and the initial planning began under Eisenhower, and Nixon was the man in the administration who handled it. The CIA team for Operation SUCCESS (Guatemala) were the same team who put together the Bay of Pigs and the Dealey Plaza operation.

EDIT - Formatting

Edited January 21, 2012 by William Kelly

[Len Colby]

Bill it has long been my understanding that JFK changed the landing site and this was confirmed by noted historian Howard Jones. Get back to us when you cite a comparable source who says otherwise.

Do you know of any independent confirmation Martino was in a Cuban prison before the BoP?

I'm still at a loss to understand how the Guatemala coup or U2 incident had anything to do with the assassination.

[William Kelly]

Bill it has long been my understanding that JFK changed the landing site and this was confirmed by noted historian Howard Jones. Get back to us when you cite a comparable source who says otherwise.

Do you know of any independent confirmation Martino was in a Cuban prison before the BoP?

I'm still at a loss to understand how the Guatemala coup or U2 incident had anything to do with the assassination.

Len, It's quite clear, at least to me, that Bissell changed the landing site in order to overcome JFK's objection to a spectacular landing. From the Book you cite it says that JFK didn't want a D-Day style invasion and Bissell told him the alternative landing site permitted off loading materials and "unspectacular phased landing at night," but that didn't happen and Bissel and Dulles were fired because of it.:

President Kennedy nonetheless remained hesitant, emphasizing that the Trinidad Plan exposed U.S.involvement. It was important, he insisted, to maintain the covert nature of the plan and thus the capacity to deny complicity. That concern in mind, he strongly object to pre-landing air attacks because the invasion force did not possess an airstrip in Cuba and the White House could not claim the planes were indigenous in origin. More disturbing, the centerpiece of the Trinidad Plan was a 'spectacular' assault reminiscent of D-Day in World War II. 'It looks too much like a military operation,' he insisted. 'And so you must change the place.'"

"Two other roads along with a pair of railways passed to and from Playa Giron and the Bay of Pigs. Zapata's swamps made it virtually impossible for Castro's motorized divisions to enter the area except through two narrow dirt causeways that paratrooprs would close before the assault. Indeed, according to Bissell, the Zapata Peninsula had been the scene of guerrilla activities for more than a hundred years. The invasion forces would stage an 'unspectacular' phased landing at night, off-loading until dawn before leaving and returning the following evening. They would encounter lighter opposition than at Trinidad and would acquire one or two airstrips capable of handling B-26s. The White House thus had a rationale for denying involvement."

As for Martino, you don't have to go far and do any real research to find out:

http://www.spartacus.../JFKmartino.htm

In the summer of 1959 Martino was once again in Cuba.While in the Deauville Casino he made critical comments about Fidel Castro, the new leader of the country. He was overheard by a Castro supporter who reported him to the authorities. On 29th July, 1959, Martino was arrested and charged with trying to help people associated with Fulgencio Batista to escape from the island. Martino was held in prison for the next three years and was not released until October, 1962.

In regards to Guatemala Coup, the same major players involved in that primarily psychological operation - David Atlee Phillips, Jake Easterline, Morales, et al., were tasked with the Bay of Pigs and were involved in the Dealey Plaza operation. And the U2 program was entwined because of the Patsy and the Zapruder film's visits to NPIC 2x on the weekend of the assassination.

BK

JFKcountercoup

Edited January 21, 2012 by William Kelly

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

How can anyone have any serious doubt that JFK was set up for the Bay of Pigs?

Nixon was the point man in the Eisenhower administration, working with Dulles

in constructing a plan for the landing that could not possibly have succeeded.

The CIA was tightly controlling information in the American press and about to

confront the young, inexperienced president with an unpalatable choice between

embarrassment and sending in the Marines. They were stunned by his decision.

The Soviets had learned the date and shared it with Casto. Everyone knew except

for JFK. When he investigated the fiasco, he discovered that Dulles, Cabell, and

Bissell had played a "bait and switch", which is why he sacked them from the CIA.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

I have long since concluded that LBJ was the pivotal player in the assassination of JFK. Among the sources that are most relevant for those who want to understand how this came about, I recommend the books by Phillip Nelson, Noel Twyman, Madeleine Duncan Brown, Billy Sole Estes, Barr McClelland, E. Howard Hunt's "Last Confessions", and Nigel Turner's "The Guilty Men". Here are some of my reasons, where I respond to challenging questions that were originally posed to me on another forum:

(1) "In your informed opinion, was Lyndon Baines Johnson the prime mover and architect of the conspiracy that resulted in the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy?"

My answer: "Lyndon and his cronies knew they could not beat JFK for the nomination in 1960, but that, if they could get Lyndon on the ticket, they could plan to take him out. They appear to have forced LBJ onto the ticket with threats to expose JFK's dalliance with a beautiful East German spy, his Addison's disease, and Lyndon even threatened to block any legislation that the White House would send to the Senate if he were not on the ticket." The first contemplation of an assassination appear to have occurred at that time. An excellent source on this is Phillip Nelson, LBJ: MASTERMIND OF JFK'S ASSASSINATION (2011)."

(2) "Did LBJ possess the power and authority to order the JFK assassination and to have his order implemented by powerful assets within U.S. civilian and military intelligence agencies and other areas of the national/international power structure?"

My answer: "Lyndon had the right connections with J. Edgar, the Secret Service, and other interest groups, including the CIA and the Joint Chiefs. His involvement was indispensable to carry out any such plan with impunity, since he would succeed JFK and be in the position to control the investigation. His pivotal role is well characterized by Noel Twyman, BLOODY TREASON (1997). In relation to the cover-up sending the Lincoln limousine back to Ford to be competely stripped to bare metal and have its windshield replaced required authorization at the highest levels of the American government equal to that of J. Edgar or Lyndon himself. Doug Weldon has an excellent study of this aspect of the cover-up in MURDER IN DEALEY PLAZA (2000)."

(3) "Was LBJ capable of crafting the JFK assassination conspiracy in all its complexity--including the cover-up?"

My answer: "This is like asking if the CEO mops the floors and empties the waste baskets! No one in their right mind would imply such a thing. He did not have to 'craft the JFK assassination conspiracy in all its complexity'! He was not a mechanic (shooter) or a Secret Service agent (where members of the agency set him up for the hit) or a medical officer at Bethesda (like John Eberole, M.D.) The Chiefs, the CIA, the Secret Service, the Dallas Police Department and the Dallas Sheriff's Department took care of the details. Next you are going to tell us that he had to have changed the oil in the Lincoln limousine! He had plenty of help, as Noel Twyman, BLOODY TREASON (1997), and Barr McClelland, BLOOD, MONEY & POWER (2003), both explain, where Noel examines the big picture of complicity between the CIA, the Joint Chiefs, the Secret Service and LBJ, while Barr focuses upon a small but illuminating piece of a complex conspiracy."

(4) "Do you agree with Phillip Nelson's assessment of LBJ as the 'mastermind' of the JFK assassination?"

My answer: "Yes, of course I do. He event sent his chief administrative assistant, Cliff Carter, down to Dallas to make sure that all of the arrangements of the assassination were in place, as Billy Sol Estes, A TEXAS LEGEND (2004) explains. And he was the key player at the ratification meeting that took place the night before the assassination at the home of Clint Murchison, which was attended by J. Edgar, Richard Nixon, John J. McCloy, George Brown, and other heavy hitters, as Madeleine Duncan Brown has explained, TEXAS IN THE MORNING (2004), where this meeting was substantiated by Nigel Turner in the final installment of 'The Men who Killed Kennedy."

(5) "Do you accept "The Last Confessions of E. Howard Hunt" as a completely truthful statement made without hidden agendas to deceive and disinform?"

My answer: "It was basically truthful, of course, since he was unburdening his conscience to his son as he was approaching death. He of course identified LBJ, Cord Meyer, David Atlee Philips, William Harvey, and David Sanchez Morales as having been involved, for which we have a great deal of corroborating evidence. Moralses also appears to have been involved with Bobby's assassination with Gordon Campbell and George Joannides, as I explain in 'RFK: Outing the CIA at the Ambassador', Veterans Today. I would add that I believe he was circumspect with regard to the living, where he could also have delineated the complicity of George H.W. Bush, which appears to have been far more substantial than is generally understood."

ADDENDUM: Jack Ruby's observations

Jack Ruby, perhaps the only conspirator with a conscience, had important points to make about the assassination, including statements to reporters after he has been permitted a new trial. Jack says, "Everything pertaining to what's happening has never come to the surface. The world will never know the true facts, of what occurred, my motives. The people had, that had so much to gain and had such an ulterior motive for putting me in the position I'm in, will never let the true facts come above board to the world." Reporter, "Are these people in very high positions Jack?" Jack, "Yes. Why has nobody seen this footage at the time it was shot?"

He continued, "Because certain people with enough power didn't want you to see it. Just like they didn't want you to see the Zapruder film. Imagine what would have happened if the American public was shown just both of these films." Jack also observed, "Gentlemen, I want to tell the truth, but I cannot tell it here. If you want a fair shake out of me, you have to take me to Washington." And, "When I mentioned about Adlai Stevenson, if he was vice president there would never have been an assassination of our beloved President Kennedy." Asked if he would explain it again, Ruby continued, "Well the answer is the man in office now", where that man was Lyndon Johnson.

For two 2-hour interviews with Phil Nelson:

FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 2011

Phillip F. Nelson

LBJ: THE MASTERMIND OF JFK'S ASSASSINATION

FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 3, 2010

Phillip F. Nelson

LBJ: THE MASTERMIND OF JFK'S ASSASSINATION

Edited January 22, 2012 by James H. Fetzer

[Len Colby]

Bill it has long been my understanding that JFK changed the landing site and this was confirmed by noted historian Howard Jones. Get back to us when you cite a comparable source who says otherwise.

Do you know of any independent confirmation Martino was in a Cuban prison before the BoP?

I'm still at a loss to understand how the Guatemala coup or U2 incident had anything to do with the assassination.

Len, It's quite clear, at least to me, that Bissell changed the landing site in order to overcome JFK's objection to a spectacular landing. From the Book you cite it says that JFK didn't want a D-Day style invasion and Bissell told him the alternative landing site permitted off loading materials and "unspectacular phased landing at night," but that didn't happen and Bissel and Dulles were fired because of it.:

President Kennedy nonetheless remained hesitant, emphasizing that the Trinidad Plan exposed U.S.involvement. It was important, he insisted, to maintain the covert nature of the plan and thus the capacity to deny complicity. That concern in mind, he strongly object to pre-landing air attacks because the invasion force did not possess an airstrip in Cuba and the White House could not claim the planes were indigenous in origin. More disturbing, the centerpiece of the Trinidad Plan was a 'spectacular' assault reminiscent of D-Day in World War II. 'It looks too much like a military operation,' he insisted. 'And so you must change the place.'"

"Two other roads along with a pair of railways passed to and from Playa Giron and the Bay of Pigs. Zapata's swamps made it virtually impossible for Castro's motorized divisions to enter the area except through two narrow dirt causeways that paratrooprs would close before the assault. Indeed, according to Bissell, the Zapata Peninsula had been the scene of guerrilla activities for more than a hundred years. The invasion forces would stage an 'unspectacular' phased landing at night, off-loading until dawn before leaving and returning the following evening. They would encounter lighter opposition than at Trinidad and would acquire one or two airstrips capable of handling B-26s. The White House thus had a rationale for denying involvement."

It still has JFK saying "you must change the place"

As for Martino, you don't have to go far and do any real research to find out:

http://www.spartacus.../JFKmartino.htm

In the summer of 1959 Martino was once again in Cuba.While in the Deauville Casino he made critical comments about Fidel Castro, the new leader of the country. He was overheard by a Castro supporter who reported him to the authorities. On 29th July, 1959, Martino was arrested and charged with trying to help people associated with Fulgencio Batista to escape from the island. Martino was held in prison for the next three years and was not released until October, 1962.

OK My bad but do you think the date was set in 1959? Or that some got word to him while he was in prison? A bit moot since the KGB knew

In regards to Guatemala Coup, the same major players involved in that primarily psychological operation - David Atlee Phillips, Jake Easterline, Morales, et al., were tasked with the Bay of Pigs and were involved in the Dealey Plaza operation. And the U2 program was entwined because of the Patsy and the Zapruder film's visits to NPIC 2x on the weekend of the assassination.

Who was "the Patsy"? Gary Powers?

BK

JFKcountercoup

[William Kelly]

Bill it has long been my understanding that JFK changed the landing site and this was confirmed by noted historian Howard Jones. Get back to us when you cite a comparable source who says otherwise.

Do you know of any independent confirmation Martino was in a Cuban prison before the BoP?

I'm still at a loss to understand how the Guatemala coup or U2 incident had anything to do with the assassination.

Len, It's quite clear, at least to me, that Bissell changed the landing site in order to overcome JFK's objection to a spectacular landing. From the Book you cite it says that JFK didn't want a D-Day style invasion and Bissell told him the alternative landing site permitted off loading materials and "unspectacular phased landing at night," but that didn't happen and Bissel and Dulles were fired because of it.:

President Kennedy nonetheless remained hesitant, emphasizing that the Trinidad Plan exposed U.S.involvement. It was important, he insisted, to maintain the covert nature of the plan and thus the capacity to deny complicity. That concern in mind, he strongly object to pre-landing air attacks because the invasion force did not possess an airstrip in Cuba and the White House could not claim the planes were indigenous in origin. More disturbing, the centerpiece of the Trinidad Plan was a 'spectacular' assault reminiscent of D-Day in World War II. 'It looks too much like a military operation,' he insisted. 'And so you must change the place.'"

"Two other roads along with a pair of railways passed to and from Playa Giron and the Bay of Pigs. Zapata's swamps made it virtually impossible for Castro's motorized divisions to enter the area except through two narrow dirt causeways that paratrooprs would close before the assault. Indeed, according to Bissell, the Zapata Peninsula had been the scene of guerrilla activities for more than a hundred years. The invasion forces would stage an 'unspectacular' phased landing at night, off-loading until dawn before leaving and returning the following evening. They would encounter lighter opposition than at Trinidad and would acquire one or two airstrips capable of handling B-26s. The White House thus had a rationale for denying involvement."

It still has JFK saying "you must change the place"

BK: YES, BUT IF YOU READ THE ENTIRE BOOK OR AT LEAST THE PARAGRAPH, IT DETAILS THAT JFK'S COMPLAINT WASN'T THE PLACE BUT THE D-DAY MILITARY INVASION PLAN, THAT WAS TO BE AVERTED BY CHANGING THE PLACE AND STYLE FROM INVASION TO SLOW INFILTRATION.

As for Martino, you don't have to go far and do any real research to find out:

http://www.spartacus.../JFKmartino.htm

In the summer of 1959 Martino was once again in Cuba.While in the Deauville Casino he made critical comments about Fidel Castro, the new leader of the country. He was overheard by a Castro supporter who reported him to the authorities. On 29th July, 1959, Martino was arrested and charged with trying to help people associated with Fulgencio Batista to escape from the island. Martino was held in prison for the next three years and was not released until October, 1962.

OK My bad but do you think the date was set in 1959? Or that some got word to him while he was in prison? A bit moot since the KGB knew

BK: The DATE WAS SET AND RESET THREE TIMES AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN RESET AGAIN WHEN IT WAS DISCOVERED THE KGB AND CUBANS KNEW IN ADVACE, BUT WASN'T

In regards to Guatemala Coup, the same major players involved in that primarily psychological operation - David Atlee Phillips, Jake Easterline, Morales, et al., were tasked with the Bay of Pigs and were involved in the Dealey Plaza operation. And the U2 program was entwined because of the Patsy and the Zapruder film's visits to NPIC 2x on the weekend of the assassination.

Who was "the Patsy"? Gary Powers?

BK: I WOULD SAY HE WAS A PATSY, AS MUCH AS OSWALD WAS, BUT I WAS REFERING TO OSWALD'S U2 CONNECTIONS.

BK

JFKcountercoup