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Gordon Arnold


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I don't have an obituary or any details concerning his death. All I can offer is the background that he ranks among the great frauds of the Kennedy assassination community. There is not a single speck of evidence that Arnold was even IN Dealey Plaza that day. While it is tragic that he died, it does rid the research community of one more unreliable witness to rank up there with Jean Hill, Beverly Oliver, and Roger Craig.

It is significant that Arnold never intended for his identity to be associated with the story. For example, here is a passage from Henry Hurt's book, Reasonable Doubt.

"He sought no publicity, he says, for he was fearful of being connected with the incident. He agreed in 1978 to talk with Earl Golz, then of the Dallas Morning News. According to Arnold, Golz agreed not to identify him. However, when the story was published, Arnold was fully identified, even in terms of his job with the consumer-affairs department in Dallas. Golz has confirmed this to the author, explaining that at the last minute his editor refused to run the story without giving Arnold's identity."

Hurt adds:

Support for Arnold's claim to have been on the grassy knoll came from a surprising source. After the story appeared in the Morning News, former U.S. Senator Ralph Yarborough, who was riding with Vice-President Lyndon B. Johnson two cars back from the President at the time of the ambush, got in touch with the newspaper to say that he had observed just such an incident: "Immediately on the firing of the first shot," Senator Yarborough told the reporter, "I saw the man you interviewed throw himself onto the ground. He was down within a second of the time the shot was fired, and I thought to myself, 'There's a combat veteran who knows how to act when weapons start firing.' "

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKarnoldG.htm

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I don't have an obituary or any details concerning his death. All I can offer is the background that he ranks among the great frauds of the Kennedy assassination community. There is not a single speck of evidence that Arnold was even IN Dealey Plaza that day. While it is tragic that he died, it does rid the research community of one more unreliable witness to rank up there with Jean Hill, Beverly Oliver, and Roger Craig.

I agree with you on Beverly Oliver and Gordon Arnold. There are quite a few inconsistencies that seriously damage his credibility.

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I would agree about the inconsistencies as well, however,

"there is not a single speck of evidence that Arnold was [not] even IN Dealey Plaza that day."

I'd still like to know if anyone is aware of an obituary. He died at age 56, in Dallas [?], in 1997. Where's the record? Did it mention a military career? Do we know the cause of death?

I believe other researchers have failed to produce any military records which would have substantiated his claims to having been shipped off to Alaska within a few days of 11/22/63.

- lee

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Hi Lee

You said in your first posting on Gordon Arnold that you had uncovered a death certificate for him, but I assume from your other comments that you haven't seen it. You might be able to get a copy if you follow the link below:

http://www.tdh.state.tx.us/bvs/registra/certcop.htm

I haven't heard anything of his military career and there doesn't seem to be anything on the web, but I'll let you know if something turns up.

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Thanks Lindyboo.

I tried that route. You have to be a relative to process the order - the pulldown menu requires you to select father, mother, brother, sister, etc. Perhaps someone might use pretense to place the order, but I preferred to stick with the high road.

If GA had a military career, and was survived by other family members, I find it strange that there would have been no obituary - and I performed numerous searches on all Texas on-line newspapers and 'pay' obituary search engines.

- lee

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  • 2 weeks later...

There is a picture of Gordon Arnold or someone in a military uniform standing where Arnold says he was. The enhanced picture shows the hat and other military uniform details. Jack white probably has a copy.

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I would like to share an observation that I read about in the past concerning Gordon Arnold and Ralph Yarborough. Some people have said that Yarborough had mentioned hearing a shot or the first shot and seeing a man dive to the ground who had been standing above the wall at the Black Dog Man location. Critics have said that Arnold claimed that he didn't hit the ground until after a shot was fired past his left ear, which appears to have occurred around the time Mary Moorman took her #5 Polaroid, but Yarborough said the man dove to the ground at the moment of the first shot. What these critics didn't consider was when exactly was it that Ralph Yarborough first recognized a shot being fired. Let me explain how this comes into play ...

During the filming of the movie "JFK", Robert Groden was present during the 32 or 33 takes that were done where seven shots per shooting sequence was fired from different places within the plaza. Groden found that witnesses, depending on where in the plaza they were located, had only heard some of the shots fired and not others. Most researchers will agree that at Z255 that at least two shots have been fired at the motorcade. If one takes a good clear print of James Altgens #6 photo, which corresponds with Z255 and looks very closely at Yarborough, they will see that he is still smiling and jubilant and is unaware that shots have been fired at that point. So when he says that when he heard a shot or the first shot and saw a man above the corner of the wall dive to the ground - the then Senator is probably telling it accurately and it would correspond with what Arnold had said.

A good view of the smiling Senator in Altgens #6 can be seen on page 31 of Groden's book called "The killing of a President". The point of my sharing this is so researchers will give some thought to the shooting sequence and how that applied to each and every earwitness. It's not always that witnesses were unreliable as much as they first had to recognize a noise that they heard as a shot. Even Charles Brehm is still clapping as the limo passed his location and it too comes after Z255. So when Brehm said he heard two shots, he may very well have been talking about the two or so that came around the time of the kill shot and he just didn't recognize the first sounds as rifle fire. If one takes Brehms actions at Z255 and applies them to when we believe the first shot was actually fired, then we could possibly say that Brehm appears to have been happy over JFK being shot up and that is just plain silly.

Edited by Larry Peters
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From “Nowhere Man: The Strange Story of Gordon Arnold,” by Dave Reitzes:

In 1993 Ralph W. Yarborough was interviewed at his Austin home by historian David Murph of Texas Christian University. Murph reminded Yarborough that he had been quoted as saying he had witnessed a man on the grassy knoll throw himself down on the ground, and that the man had impressed him as a combat veteran.

Yarborough seemed puzzled to hear that his words had been applied to someone standing on the grassy knoll. That couldn’t possibly be correct, he insisted repeatedly. “Remember where I was in the motorcade — with the Johnsons,” he cautioned Murph, “too far back to have been able to see anyone [on the knoll] drop to the ground when firing began.”

Whoever Yarborough had described (and there were many people in Dealey Plaza throwing themselves down on the ground as the shots rang out), it could not have been Gordon Arnold.

(end quote)

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arnold1.htm

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From “Nowhere Man: The Strange Story of Gordon Arnold,” by Dave Reitzes:

In 1993 Ralph W. Yarborough was interviewed at his Austin home by historian David Murph of Texas Christian University. Murph reminded Yarborough that he had been quoted as saying he had witnessed a man on the grassy knoll throw himself down on the ground, and that the man had impressed him as a combat veteran.

Yarborough seemed puzzled to hear that his words had been applied to someone standing on the grassy knoll. That couldn’t possibly be correct, he insisted repeatedly. “Remember where I was in the motorcade — with the Johnsons,” he cautioned Murph, “too far back to have been able to see anyone [on the knoll] drop to the ground when firing began.”

Whoever Yarborough had described (and there were many people in Dealey Plaza throwing themselves down on the ground as the shots rang out), it could not have been Gordon Arnold.

(end quote)

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arnold1.htm

Mr Ecker, I am aware that you have seen information where another researcher contacted Earl Golz who first brought Arnold's story to light back in the late 70's and it was Ralph Yarborough who saw the Golz article in the Dallas Morning News and then contacted Earl to let him know that he had seen the service man over the corner of the wall that dove to the ground. Dave Reitzes, being a lone assassin believer, only made part of the story known in order to give it the slant he wanted. As I recall it was Miller who critiqued Reitzes article and after reading what Miller had pointed out, I felt Reitzes should have been ashamed of himself. It was true that the much older and failing Yarborough got confused when asked what could he have seen at the time of the first shot because he had since known where his car was located when the first shots were reported to ring out. However, anyone looking at a blowup of the Altgen's #6 photo taken no less than 3 seconds before the head shot hit the President, Yarborough's car woulod have rolled westward quite considerably and that area of the wall was easily exposed to his view.

The important thing in my mind was that Golz told Miller that he and Ralph Yarborough contacted each other several times and the Senator in 1978 knew exactly who on the knoll he was talking about. The same can be said when Yarborough did the interview for Nigel Turner in the mid 80's for "The Men Who Killied Kennedy" series when he again gave an interview for the Gordon Arnold piece in the documentary. There can be no doubt that Ralph Yarborough knew who he was talking about and only Reitzes would try to make a point against a conspiracy having taken place by trying to make something out of the aging Yarborough's confusion only at that one later moment in time.

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Let's open it up, shall we?

- Gordon Arnold's location on the knoll has changed, as per the timeframe in which he was interviewed [see Don Roberdeau's map and analysis]

- His Military records cannot be located [st Louis fire?]

- There was no obituary [that I could locate] when he died in 1997 which would have substantiated his military service.

- He initially said 'Secret Service' credentials were used by the individual ousting him from the parking lot [Marrs]. In Turner he says 'CIA.'

- His postion, as per the Turner interview, has him stationary, for a point of time, over what allegedly was a burning hot water pipe.

- The photographs do not apear to provide 'much' credibility to his story.

- His hesitation and lack of comprehension when presented with White's 'Badgeman' enhancement, was a bit strange.

- His volunteering of a railroad worker in the interview seemed convenient, and was not present in his original interviews.

- The pile of dirt he claims to have stood on is not present in any of the photos?

- There were 2 cops in the initial account, later in Turner there was one.

- In one accounting, Arnold throws the cop the film, in another, Arnold throws him the camera.

However, none of this is sufficient for me personally to make the judgement that Gordon Arnold was NOT present, exactly where he claimed to have been, on 11/22/63.

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Let's open it up, shall we?

- Gordon Arnold's location on the knoll has changed, as per the timeframe in which he was interviewed [see Don Roberdeau's map and analysis]

- His Military records cannot be located [st Louis fire?]

- There was no obituary [that I could locate] when he died in 1997 which would have substantiated his military service.

- He initially said 'Secret Service' credentials were used by the individual ousting him from the parking lot [Marrs].  In Turner he says 'CIA.'

- His postion, as per the Turner interview, has him stationary, for a point of time, over what allegedly was a burning hot water pipe.

- The photographs do not apear to provide 'much' credibility to his story.

- His hesitation and lack of comprehension when presented with White's 'Badgeman' enhancement, was a bit strange.

- His volunteering of a railroad worker in the interview seemed convenient, and was not present in his original interviews.

- The pile of dirt he claims to have stood on is not present in any of the photos?

- There were 2 cops in the initial account, later in Turner there was one.

- In one accounting, Arnold throws the cop the film, in another, Arnold throws him the camera.

However, none of this is sufficient for me personally to make the judgement that Gordon Arnold was NOT present, exactly where he claimed to have been, on 11/22/63.

Lee, let me share some more information with you.

Golz told Miller that the photograph shown in the Dallas Morning News WAS NOT ever meant to replicate Gordon's position during the shooting. That was an assumption Don Roberdeau made.

Arnold's family is based in the Dallas area and if one wants to call around - getting verification as to Gordon's service in the military would not be that difficult. You also might try a local library who has newspapers on microfilm and if they have the Dallas Morning News, then you can search the obituaries for the year or month that Gordon died. Possibly the 6th Floor Museum may be of some help. Gary Mack can be reached at GMack@JFK.Org.

Golz had told Miller that he remembered Arnold saying someone of Federal authority turned him away from the RR yard. From the time of assassination to the time he was on Turner's documentary there had been a passing of 25 years gone by. It was reasonable to Golz, Miller and others that Gordon simply misspoke and possibly thought one branch and said the other. I certainly have done this myself.

We can assume the water pipe was not hot at the time of the Turner documentary because Arnold had no problem resting his leg over it. I think if one looks more closely at what was said in that interview - Gordon claimed he started to throw his leg over the pipe, but was stopped. It may be reasonable that the aging Arnold laying his leg down on the pipe in the "MWKK" series was more out of necessity so to continue his vocal presentation without losing his balance. This by no means does not tell us that Arnold stood with his leg resting over the steam pipe when confronted by the man who turned him away. It's also worth noting that there is a report taken of one of the men on the triple underpass that saw a young man in his early twenties get stopped coming from the RR yard and was turned back in the direction from which he came.

There has been much said about Gordon Arnold's reaction when shown the Badge Man image and I have had an interest in it myself. To date, I believe Miller has presented the best observation as to why Gordon reacted the way he did. Let me see if I can recall it correctly - Golz had said to Miller that it took a lot on his part to get Arnold to make his story public. Arnold had a genuine fear as to what he believed happened to witnesses who came forward. Whether Gordon's fear was justified is open for debate, but that is how he felt about it. 10 years had passed when Turner wanted Arnold to tell his story. Gordon obviously had been convinced that other people had come forward at that late time and no harm had come to them, so he must have felt some assurance that it was OK to give the filmed interview. Part of the attraction for Gordon may have been that he had heard that there was a photo that helped support his being on the knoll, but I cannot say that with 100% certainty. Anyway, Gordon is shown the image of what appears to be a service man standing beyond the wall where he said he had been. Then when Gordon sees the rest of the picture enhancement, he observes the hatless man who looks to be in a police uniform. Gordon became upset because while he agreed to tell his story, he had just been ambushed showing the world that he may have seen the man who actually shot the President. That's the part that got to Gordon for his fear of what could happen to him just grew in seconds. It's one thing to claim shots came from the knoll, but in Gordon's mind ... his having the bad guys find out he could maybe recognize one of them could cost him his life. Keep in mind too that up to that point, Gordon only knew that a hatless cop took his film, he didn't know the hatless cop may have been the one who fired the shot passed his left ear. Gordon ends by saying "Had I of known this, I would not have given the interview."

Gordon's total conversation with Golz was not printed. Earl only offered a few words here and there. It is also worth noting that Gordon had told Turner's people about a RR worker before being shown the Badge Man images. Those are the only two records of any part of Gordon's interviews that I have seen to date.

There is only the walkway footage that I have seen that shows where Arnold stood. The poor black and white film quality and the angle at which it is filmed does not allow us to tell if the dirt was mounded there or not.

I have never understood Gordon to have not been talking about two cops in the MWKK. One takes his film and the other has a shot gun. On page 57 of Groden's book "The Killing of a President" there are in fact two individuals at the tree soon after the shooting. I'm not sure when Gordon was supposed to have said he gave his camera to the cop? The cop may have wanted the camera, but Gordon opted to only give up the film as I recall.

One final point - Miller had some 1st generation slides lightened and he discovered someone in light tan clothing rising up over the top of the wall in the Bond slides. This seems to have happened right where the two figures in dark clothing were standing. This discovery had not been made until after Arnold had long since been dead and supports exactly what Arnold had said occurred.

I hope this additional information has been helpful. I agree with what you have said, Lee. That just on the observations you had raised would not have been enough to have proved Arnold not to be telling the truth. I hope some of the observations made prior have now been better explained in this post.

Edited by Larry Peters
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Let's open it up, shall we?

- Gordon Arnold's location on the knoll has changed, as per the timeframe in which he was interviewed [see Don Roberdeau's map and analysis]

- His Military records cannot be located [st Louis fire?]

- There was no obituary [that I could locate] when he died in 1997 which would have substantiated his military service.

- He initially said 'Secret Service' credentials were used by the individual ousting him from the parking lot [Marrs].  In Turner he says 'CIA.'

- His postion, as per the Turner interview, has him stationary, for a point of time, over what allegedly was a burning hot water pipe.

- The photographs do not apear to provide 'much' credibility to his story.

- His hesitation and lack of comprehension when presented with White's 'Badgeman' enhancement, was a bit strange.

- His volunteering of a railroad worker in the interview seemed convenient, and was not present in his original interviews.

- The pile of dirt he claims to have stood on is not present in any of the photos?

- There were 2 cops in the initial account, later in Turner there was one.

- In one accounting, Arnold throws the cop the film, in another, Arnold throws him the camera.

However, none of this is sufficient for me personally to make the judgement that Gordon Arnold was NOT present, exactly where he claimed to have been, on 11/22/63.

Lee, let me share some more information with you.

Golz told Miller that the photograph shown in the Dallas Morning News WAS NOT ever meant to replicate Gordon's position during the shooting. That was an assumption Don Roberdeau made.

Arnold's family is based in the Dallas area and if one wants to call around - getting verification as to Gordon's service in the military would not be that difficult. You also might try a local library who has newspapers on microfilm and if they have the Dallas Morning News, then you can search the obituaries for the year or month that Gordon died. Possibly the 6th Floor Museum may be of some help. Gary Mack can be reached at GMack@JFK.Org.

Golz had told Miller that he remembered Arnold saying someone of Federal authority turned him away from the RR yard. From the time of assassination to the time he was on Turner's documentary there had been a passing of 25 years gone by. It was reasonable to Golz, Miller and others that Gordon simply misspoke and possibly thought one branch and said the other. I certainly have done this myself.

We can assume the water pipe was not hot at the time of the Turner documentary because Arnold had no problem resting his leg over it. I think if one looks more closely at what was said in that interview - Gordon claimed he started to throw his leg over the pipe, but was stopped. It may be reasonable that the aging Arnold laying his leg down on the pipe in the "MWKK" series was more out of necessity so to continue his vocal presentation without losing his balance. This by no means does not tell us that Arnold stood with his leg resting over the steam pipe when confronted by the man who turned him away. It's also worth noting that there is a report taken of one of the men on the triple underpass that saw a young man in his early twenties get stopped coming from the RR yard and was turned back in the direction from which he came.

There has been much said about Gordon Arnold's reaction when shown the Badge Man image and I have had an interest in it myself. To date, I believe Miller has presented the best observation as to why Gordon reacted the way he did. Let me see if I can recall it correctly - Golz had said to Miller that it took a lot on his part to get Arnold to make his story public. Arnold had a genuine fear as to what he believed happened to witnesses who came forward. Whether Gordon's fear was justified is open for debate, but that is how he felt about it. 10 years had passed when Turner wanted Arnold to tell his story. Gordon obviously had been convinced that other people had come forward at that late time and no harm had come to them, so he must have felt some assurance that it was OK to give the filmed interview. Part of the attraction for Gordon may have been that he had heard that there was a photo that helped support his being on the knoll, but I cannot say that with 100% certainty. Anyway, Gordon is shown the image of what appears to be a service man standing beyond the wall where he said he had been. Then when Gordon sees the rest of the picture enhancement, he observes the hatless man who looks to be in a police uniform. Gordon became upset because while he agreed to tell his story, he had just been ambushed showing the world that he may have seen the man who actually shot the President. That's the part that got to Gordon for his fear of what could happen to him just grew in seconds. It's one thing to claim shots came from the knoll, but in Gordon's mind ... his having the bad guys find out he could maybe recognize one of them could cost him his life. Keep in mind too that up to that point, Gordon only knew that a hatless cop took his film, he didn't know the hatless cop may have been the one who fired the shot passed his left ear. Gordon ends by saying "Had I of known this, I would not have given the interview."

Gordon's total conversation with Golz was not printed. Earl only offered a few words here and there. It is also worth noting that Gordon had told Turner's people about a RR worker before being shown the Badge Man images. Those are the only two records of any part of Gordon's interviews that I have seen to date.

There is only the walkway footage that I have seen that shows where Arnold stood. The poor black and white film quality and the angle at which it is filmed does not allow us to tell if the dirt was mounded there or not.

I have never understood Gordon to have not been talking about two cops in the MWKK. One takes his film and the other has a shot gun. On page 57 of Groden's book "The Killing of a President" there are in fact two individuals at the tree soon after the shooting. I'm not sure when Gordon was supposed to have said he gave his camera to the cop? The cop may have wanted the camera, but Gordon opted to only give up the film as I recall.

One final point - Miller had some 1st generation slides lightened and he discovered someone in light tan clothing rising up over the top of the wall in the Bond slides. This seems to have happened right where the two figures in dark clothing were standing. This discovery had not been made until after Arnold had long since been dead and supports exactly what Arnold had said occurred.

I hope this additional information has been helpful. I agree with what you have said, Lee. That just on the observations you had raised would not have been enough to have proved Arnold not to be telling the truth. I hope some of the observations made prior have now been better explained in this post.

But the pipe was hot. Researcher Paul Burke observes that this is the same pipeline Officer Seymour Weitzman testified he burned his hands on just a few minutes after the shooting.

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But the pipe was hot.  Researcher Paul Burke observes that this is the same pipeline Officer Seymour Weitzman testified he burned his hands on just a few minutes after the shooting.

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, so let me try another way of explaining how I saw it. I've come up on fences that were hot/electric and I have thrown up a leg to hop over them without getting shocked. Somewhat like a track runner would hop a hurdle. I personally think too much is being read into the older and out of shape Arnold throwing his leg over the pipe for Turner's documentary. I get the feeling that some people are thinking Gordon threw his leg over and onto the pipe on the day of the assassination because of what he did in the MWKK series. The Arnold in the MWKK series was heavy, aging and out of shape altogether. As I recall, Gordon even hobbled somewhat when he walked. I might add that Gordon didn't even make it clear if he stopped as he was raising his leg to get over the pipe because of his being confronted. Because the Older aging Arnold rested his leg on the steam pipe in his interview so to continue telling his story, I don't necessarily think it means he sat on the pipe on 11/22/63 while talking to the man who ran him out of the area. I 'll just say that I don't think a 22 year old man just out of basic training would have had any difficulty in hopping over that pipe without getting burnt had he not been stopped before hand.

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But the pipe was hot.  Researcher Paul Burke observes that this is the same pipeline Officer Seymour Weitzman testified he burned his hands on just a few minutes after the shooting.

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, so let me try another way of explaining how I saw it. I've come up on fences that were hot/electric and I have thrown up a leg to hop over them without getting shocked. Somewhat like a track runner would hop a hurdle. I personally think too much is being read into the older and out of shape Arnold throwing his leg over the pipe for Turner's documentary. I get the feeling that some people are thinking Gordon threw his leg over and onto the pipe on the day of the assassination because of what he did in the MWKK series. The Arnold in the MWKK series was heavy, aging and out of shape altogether. As I recall, Gordon even hobbled somewhat when he walked. I might add that Gordon didn't even make it clear if he stopped as he was raising his leg to get over the pipe because of his being confronted. Because the Older aging Arnold rested his leg on the steam pipe in his interview so to continue telling his story, I don't necessarily think it means he sat on the pipe on 11/22/63 while talking to the man who ran him out of the area. I 'll just say that I don't think a 22 year old man just out of basic training would have had any difficulty in hopping over that pipe without getting burnt had he not been stopped before hand.

The thing is, he would have been insane to try to climb over the pipe. It was giving off steam and he would surely have felt the heat coming off of it. Why wouldn't he simply go around the pipe?

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The thing is, he would have been insane to try to climb over the pipe.  It was giving off steam and he would surely have felt the heat coming off of it.  Why wouldn't he simply go around the pipe?

The steam pipe was not open to the air and did not give off steam from what I have learned about it. Also, earlier in this thread it was mentioned that Seymour Weitzman burnt his hands on the pipe, so I don't see how Arnold could have been any more forewarned than Weiztman obviously was. And I still think we cannot be sure that Gordon actually made contact with the pipe before being stopped.

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