Officer Marrion Baker's mad dash for the.... Dal-Tex building?

[Sandy Larsen]

Has anyone been having difficulty logging onto this forum?

When I last logged in a long time ago (like a month ago), I checked the box that indicated I wanted to stay logged in.

So I can't say whether or not it has been difficult to log in today. What I can say is that I haven't been logged out, and that everything has been running smoothly.

Hopefully someone who regularly logs in will reply to your post.

[Sandy Larsen]

Are we now in agreement that Baker turned right to avoid Truly? I can't tell anymore...

Also, does anyone know the location of the camera for this footage?

Tom

Tom,

I believe that I pretty much proved in Post 107 (on page 8) that Baker wasn't even close to Truly as he passed by him. And so, no, I don't believe Baker turned right to avoid Truly.

Here's another argument against that notion: If Baker turned to avoid Truly, he must have absolutely feared him. Because Baker turned to the right so much that he was literally running away from Baker! (Not precisely, but close to it.)

[Chris Davidson]

Sandy,

This is a time lapse of a few frames. Truly stabilized.

Truly's left shoulder rotation is the impediment in Baker's path.

If Truly remains motionless, Baker does not change course.

Totally subjective of course.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Chris Davidson

[Sandy Larsen]

Sandy,

This is a time lapse of a few frames. Truly stabilized.

Truly's left shoulder rotation is the impediment in Baker's path.

If Truly remains motionless, Baker does not change course.

Totally subjective of course.

This new GIF (nice one, BTW) is especially subjective because there's no way to determine the distance between Baker and Truly.

However, if you were to compare where Truly's feet make contact with the pavement and where Baker's foot does (neither of which can be seen in this GIF), you'd see right away that they are not near each other. Or at least you should. I don't know why you cant.

In contrast, the feet of Very Tall Man and Baker do appear to be quite close to each other.

[Tom Neal]

Chris, a 72" cop would cast a shadow of 95.4" according the sun elevation, at the time, of 37.05.

Ray,

These are the figures I came up with in 1981 using a satellite tracking program that I wrote:

31.59 degrees altitude

Shadow Length = 6'/tan(31.59) = 9.75'

Out of curiosity, how did you calculate the solar elevation?

Tom

[Tom Neal]

Tom,

I believe the two of us are in agreement.

Yes. You and I are in agreement.

My location for camera would be

Thanks Chris!

NICE job calculating the position of the camera!

The distances shown on the animation are 108 and 178 feet. One is the distance from the camera to the TSBD step? What does the other number represent?

Tom

[Chris Davidson]

The distances shown on the animation are 108 and 178 feet. One is the distance from the camera to the TSBD step? What does the other number represent?

Tom

Tom,

Sorry if that graphic was unclear.

The "flashing line" part of the graphic indicates the distance from camera to TSBD step. That would be the difference between the 178-108 = 70ft approx.

That's the way the website works. In other words, once you have the first two locations plotted, it gives you the distance between them, and then each successive location is measured from the previous location.

The plat part was a double check and I believe they're fairly compatible.

chris

[Tom Neal]

The distances shown on the animation are 108 and 178 feet. One is the distance from the camera to the TSBD step? What does the other number represent?

Tom

Tom, Sorry if that graphic was unclear.

The "flashing line" part of the graphic indicates the distance from camera to TSBD step. That would be the difference between the 178-108 = 70ft approx.

Thanks Chris, I should have figured that out myself.

70 feet, looks just right to me according to the GIF.

Tom

[Ray Mitcham]

Chris, a 72" cop would cast a shadow of 95.4" according the sun elevation, at the time, of 37.05.

Ray,

These are the figures I came up with in 1981 using a satellite tracking program that I wrote:

31.59 degrees altitude

Shadow Length = 6'/tan(31.59) = 9.75'

Out of curiosity, how did you calculate the solar elevation?

Tom

Hi Tom, I put the time, and place, in the following site.

i.e. 12.31 pm. 11.22.63

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/azel.html

Edited April 30, 2016 by Ray Mitcham

[Tom Neal]

Chris, a 72" cop would cast a shadow of 95.4" according the sun elevation, at the time, of 37.05.

Ray,

These are the figures I came up with in 1981 using a satellite tracking program that I wrote:

31.59 degrees altitude

Shadow Length = 6'/tan(31.59) = 9.75'

Out of curiosity, how did you calculate the solar elevation?

Tom

Hi Tom, I put the time, and place, in the following site.

i.e. 12.31 pm. 11.22.63

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/azel.html

Thanks, Ray.

I resurrected my 35 year old program which surprisingly runs on Windows 7!

...and got exactly the same solar elevation and azimuth.

The program *output* was verified in 1981 by the Washington Naval Observatory, so I checked the *input* Lat/Lon by using the online data for Dallas, TX (presumably the geographic center of the city) and got a 7 degree difference in solar elevation!

Comparing the Lat/Lon of the TSBD that I was given in 1981 by the guy who wanted the Solar Elevation at the time of the assassination to the Lat/Lon that I got from online showed a significant difference.

Running the online Lat/Lon for Dallas, TX on 1230pm CST 11-22-1963 on my program:

Solar elevation: 39.69 degrees

Solar azimuth: 185.49 degrees

Using the Tabular output option on my program, a Solar elevation of 37.05 degrees (given by the online program that Ray used) occurred at 10:59:31 local.

That's an EMBARRASSINGLY large difference, so obviously my program or the online program (or both!) are incorrect.

When in doubt, contact the experts... I have an email in to the Washington Naval Observatory, the official timekeeper for the USA, requesting the Solar Elevation/Azimuth on that date/time/location.

Chris, Sorry about that. Garbage in - Garbage out. Due to the incorrect Lat/Lon, my earlier numbers were WAY off. I'll post the figures the Naval Observatory when/if I get them.

Tom

Edited April 30, 2016 by Tom Neal

[Bill Miller]

On 4/18/2016 at 2:08 PM, Chris Davidson said:

Sandy,

I think we've discussed this before.

Truly changes the trajectory of Baker's run. See gif.

He does appear to be running past the steps (could have been a split second decision). If he was going to run up the stairs initially, he more than likely would have entered on the left side of the handrail where the others are moving through. The right side is much too congested.

chris

Hi Chris!

Perspective is everything. You are correct that the woman is moving up the steps quite easily and that it appears the people on the right side of the image appear congested, but some of that congestion has to be attributed to the angle at which the camera is looking at the doorway.

Note sure what the confusion is about Baker's angle during his run other than perspective in the cause of it as didn't Marion say that his seeing pigeons flying from the roof of the TSBD is what caused him to believe the shots came from there.

Mr. BELIN - All right.
I wonder if we could go on this plat, Officer Baker, and first if you could put on here with this pen, and I have turned it upside down.
With Exhibit 361, show us the spot at which you stopped your motorcycle approximately and put a "B" on it, if you would.
Mr. BAKER - Somewhere at this position here, which is approximately 10 feet from this signal light here on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
You have put a dot on Exhibit 361 with the line going to "B" and the dot represents that signal light, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN - You, on Friday, March 20, parked your motorcycle where you thought it was parked on November 22 and then we paced off the distance from the nearest point of the motorcycle to the stop light and it was 10 feet, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Now, I show you Exhibit 478 and ask you if you will, on this exhibit put an arrow with the letter "B" to this stoplight.
Mr. BAKER - Talking about this one here?
Mr. BELIN - The stoplight from which we measured the distance to the motorcycle. The arrow with the letter "B" points to the stoplight, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN - And you stopped your motorcycle 10 feet to the east of that stoplight, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN - We then paced off the distance as to approximately how far it was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway of the School Book Depository Building, do you remember doing that, on March 20?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - And it appears on Exhibit 477 that that doorway is recessed, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember how far that was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway?
Mr. BAKER - Approximately 45 feet.
Mr. BELIN - This same stoplight appears as you look at Exhibit 477 to the left of the entranceway to the building, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct, sir.

[Robert Prudhomme]

It is a shame there is not one shred of evidence showing Baker ascending the steps immediately after crossing the Elm St. extension.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Robert Prudhomme

[Richard Price]

Bill, it is good to see you posting again.  When I first discovered the Lancer website, I enjoyed your posts and it piqued a renewed interest in trying to learn more about the assassination cover up.  Unfortunately, I have neither the financial wherewithal nor the time to investigate on my own and am left watching and learning from those of you who have dedicated your time, skills and efforts.  For this I thank ALL of you on this forum and others.  Now, on to the subject at hand - I have just read the post about Baker's testimony to the WC with Belin doing the questioning.  I know there is probably more testimony, I am just not familiar with it.  To play devil's advocate:  In the above posting, Belin never addresses whether Baker went straight in to the depository.  In fact, he never asks him if he went in at all - all questions pertain to where he parked his motorcycle in relation to a traffic light and the doorway and if the MEASUREMENTS from March 20 are correct.  He never asks him if he went directly into the building, he asks if the distances are correct from the recreation and using innuendo and supposition to infer that he took a straight and immediate path to the entrance.  I know camera perspective and direction can cause confusion, but, I have to agree with Robert & Sandy, that  it certainly doesn't look like he is headed directly up the steps before the film clip ends.

[Ray Mitcham]

I agree with Bob and Richard. Baker appears to be running past the front of the TSBD and towards the DalTex Building. His later affidavit says he "decided" the shots came from the TSBD, but he could have decided, at the time his statement was made, to change his original destination to the TSBD rather than the Daltex because by then he knew  that the rifle had been found in the TSBD.

[Bill Miller]

6 hours ago, Richard Price said:

Bill, it is good to see you posting again.  When I first discovered the Lancer website, I enjoyed your posts and it piqued a renewed interest in trying to learn more about the assassination cover up.  Unfortunately, I have neither the financial wherewithal nor the time to investigate on my own and am left watching and learning from those of you who have dedicated your time, skills and efforts.  For this I thank ALL of you on this forum and others.  Now, on to the subject at hand - I have just read the post about Baker's testimony to the WC with Belin doing the questioning.  I know there is probably more testimony, I am just not familiar with it.  To play devil's advocate:  In the above posting, Belin never addresses whether Baker went straight in to the depository.  In fact, he never asks him if he went in at all - all questions pertain to where he parked his motorcycle in relation to a traffic light and the doorway and if the MEASUREMENTS from March 20 are correct.  He never asks him if he went directly into the building, he asks if the distances are correct from the recreation and using innuendo and supposition to infer that he took a straight and immediate path to the entrance.  I know camera perspective and direction can cause confusion, but, I have to agree with Robert & Sandy, that  it certainly doesn't look like he is headed directly up the steps before the film clip ends.

Hi Richard!

I found in Truly's testimony that Baker did move people out of his way on his run to the TSBD, That was the corroboration I was looking for that took things beyond supposition. Here is how Truly described Officer Marion Baker's run ....

Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me and bore me back through weight of numbers, and I lost sight of it.
I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of something. They didn't know what.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect. I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.
But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just moments later - I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the floor. And-that is-that just pepped in my mind, and I ran in with him. As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way". And I ran diagonally across to the northwest corner of the building.