Greg Parker Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) edit Edited October 25, 2012 by Greg Parker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) Correction, Eugene Barnett Edited August 21, 2011 by Bernice Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Lane Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) Confusion between Eddie Piper & Charles Givens ... The first chink appeared in the papers on 11/24/63 when it was widely reported that "A building porter said he took Oswald to the 6th floor in an elevator. When he got out, Oswald asked the porter to send the car back up for him. The porter went to the ground floor to watch the Kennedy motorcade." Piper was not a porter, but did describe himself as just that in at least one interview. The story died, then resurfaced in a slightly different version through a story given to Thayer Waldo by the Howard brothers in February. papers outside Texas carried the story this way: "A Fort Worth Newspaper said last night that it had been told that a witness being held in protective custody can identify Lee Oswald as the slayer of President Kennedy. The report was denied by government spokesmen. The newspaper said its informant identified the witness as a porter who was working at the Texas School Book Depository on Nov 22.The witness has been in protective custody since the day of the assassination and will appear before the Warren Commission investigating the slaying. Edwin O Guthman, spokesman for the Justice Department in Washington said 'there is no truth to the story at all, and no such witness exists.' In Dallas. Police Chief Jesse Curry said that he knew of no such witness to the assassination. The Dallas County Sheriff, Bill Decker, said 'I know absolutely nothing about it. I do not have such a person in my custody.' Roy S Truly, superintendent of the depository, said, 'The only janitor we have is still working there. I know nothing about all this'. Toledo Blade, 2/10/64. Note that the person is continually referred to as a "porter"... until we get to Truly, and all of a sudden, he is referring to a "janitor" - Eddie Piper! ... Porter (noun): 1. a person hired to carry burdens or baggage, as at a railroad station or a hotel. 2. a person who does cleaning and maintenance work in a building, factory, store, etc. 3. an attendant in a railroad parlor car or sleeping car. I don't see the problem here. Edited August 21, 2011 by Duke Lane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) edit Edited October 25, 2012 by Greg Parker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 Eugene Welcome Barnett Thanks Bernie! According to his testimony, he raced to the back of the TSBD because he thought the shots came from the top of the building. I guess Mr Lifton will now have to include him as one of Baker's cohorts in the conspiracy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) Confusion between Eddie Piper & Charles Givens ... The first chink appeared in the papers on 11/24/63 when it was widely reported that "A building porter said he took Oswald to the 6th floor in an elevator. When he got out, Oswald asked the porter to send the car back up for him. The porter went to the ground floor to watch the Kennedy motorcade." Piper was not a porter, but did describe himself as just that in at least one interview. The story died, then resurfaced in a slightly different version through a story given to Thayer Waldo by the Howard brothers in February. papers outside Texas carried the story this way: "A Fort Worth Newspaper said last night that it had been told that a witness being held in protective custody can identify Lee Oswald as the slayer of President Kennedy. The report was denied by government spokesmen. The newspaper said its informant identified the witness as a porter who was working at the Texas School Book Depository on Nov 22.The witness has been in protective custody since the day of the assassination and will appear before the Warren Commission investigating the slaying. Edwin O Guthman, spokesman for the Justice Department in Washington said 'there is no truth to the story at all, and no such witness exists.' In Dallas. Police Chief Jesse Curry said that he knew of no such witness to the assassination. The Dallas County Sheriff, Bill Decker, said 'I know absolutely nothing about it. I do not have such a person in my custody.' Roy S Truly, superintendent of the depository, said, 'The only janitor we have is still working there. I know nothing about all this'. Toledo Blade, 2/10/64. Note that the person is continually referred to as a "porter"... until we get to Truly, and all of a sudden, he is referring to a "janitor" - Eddie Piper! ... Porter (noun): 1. a person hired to carry burdens or baggage, as at a railroad station or a hotel. 2. a person who does cleaning and maintenance work in a building, factory, store, etc. 3. an attendant in a railroad parlor car or sleeping car. I don't see the problem here. Duke Maybe the only problem is my confusion. I assumed that the term "porter" was reserved for those whose usual job was in the collecting of books for shipping. I based that assumption on this from Sylvia Meagher: "One witness who helped to incriminate Lee Harvey Oswald in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy was a Book Depository porter named Charles Givens. The Warren Commission gave prominence to his testimony that he had forgotten his cigarettes on the sixth floor and that when he went to retrieve them just before noon he had encountered Oswald near the southeast corner window." From Givens' testimony: Mr. GIVENS. Well, I work on the first floor most of the time, like we fill orders. In short, I assumed "porter" was an alternative name for "order filler" -- not "janitor". But even if you're right, and "porter" = "janitor" and no other position, then there can be no question about who the story is about, despite efforts to try and point to Givens. If your point is that it removes a little suspicion from Truly.... yes... but only if "porter" could only mean "janitor" and nothing else. If I am confused about those terms, it was because it never occurred to me that Meagher might have herself misused the terms. None of this touches the meat of the argument though, does it?And where are those usually very vocal supporters of the Warren Commission version of events? The cat seems to have taken off with their tongues lately... The sad reality is that in the 1960's many black men working low wage jobs were called "porters." Calling someone a "porter" was pretty much calling someone "anonymous black person performing a job most white people would not perform," kind of like the male version of "maid." It's also true that at that time many if not most elevators were hand operated by elevator operators. In the south this person would quite likely be black, and be an 'elevator porter." My understanding of the article is that the writer of the article misunderstood the elevator race story, and Oswald's calling out to have the elevator sent back up, and assumed the person Oswald told to send it up was an elevator porter, and not a co-worker. Edited August 21, 2011 by Pat Speer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) edit Edited October 25, 2012 by Greg Parker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Eugene Welcome Barnett Thanks Bernie! According to his testimony, he raced to the back of the TSBD because he thought the shots came from the top of the building. I guess Mr Lifton will now have to include him as one of Baker's cohorts in the conspiracy... Your Welcome Greg, I am thinking he is the one that noted the pigeons, at the tme, taking off from the roof, how come the pigeons have been left out in all this ?? seems rather picky.. I have noted a correction in my post , his second name was not Welcome, i have omitted it, though that is how it was sent to me,it was in error, i thought it rather neat, but not true, so please correct if copied...take care all.thanks....b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Lane Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Confusion between Eddie Piper & Charles Givens ... The first chink appeared in the papers on 11/24/63 when it was widely reported that "A building porter said he took Oswald to the 6th floor in an elevator. When he got out, Oswald asked the porter to send the car back up for him. The porter went to the ground floor to watch the Kennedy motorcade." Piper was not a porter, but did describe himself as just that in at least one interview. The story died, then resurfaced in a slightly different version through a story given to Thayer Waldo by the Howard brothers in February. papers outside Texas carried the story this way: "A Fort Worth Newspaper said last night that it had been told that a witness being held in protective custody can identify Lee Oswald as the slayer of President Kennedy. The report was denied by government spokesmen. The newspaper said its informant identified the witness as a porter who was working at the Texas School Book Depository on Nov 22.The witness has been in protective custody since the day of the assassination and will appear before the Warren Commission investigating the slaying. Edwin O Guthman, spokesman for the Justice Department in Washington said 'there is no truth to the story at all, and no such witness exists.' In Dallas. Police Chief Jesse Curry said that he knew of no such witness to the assassination. The Dallas County Sheriff, Bill Decker, said 'I know absolutely nothing about it. I do not have such a person in my custody.' Roy S Truly, superintendent of the depository, said, 'The only janitor we have is still working there. I know nothing about all this'. Toledo Blade, 2/10/64. Note that the person is continually referred to as a "porter"... until we get to Truly, and all of a sudden, he is referring to a "janitor" - Eddie Piper! ... Duke Maybe the only problem is my confusion. I assumed that the term "porter" was reserved for those whose usual job was in the collecting of books for shipping. I based that assumption on this from Sylvia Meagher: "One witness who helped to incriminate Lee Harvey Oswald in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy was a Book Depository porter named Charles Givens. The Warren Commission gave prominence to his testimony that he had forgotten his cigarettes on the sixth floor and that when he went to retrieve them just before noon he had encountered Oswald near the southeast corner window." From Givens' testimony: Mr. GIVENS. Well, I work on the first floor most of the time, like we fill orders. In short, I assumed "porter" was an alternative name for "order filler" -- not "janitor". But even if you're right, and "porter" = "janitor" and no other position, then there can be no question about who the story is about, despite efforts to try and point to Givens. If your point is that it removes a little suspicion from Truly.... yes... but only if "porter" could only mean "janitor" and nothing else. If I am confused about those terms, it was because it never occurred to me that Meagher might have herself misused the terms. None of this touches the meat of the argument though, does it? ... Pat, thanks for the clarification on "porter", but again... it hardly touches the meat of the issue. The substantive point is that Givens' account of returning to the 6th floor and seeing Oswald, did not materialize until AFTER the February breaking of the Waldo story. If there was nothing to the Waldo story -- you would not have a change in Givens' story. The "article" you refer to, I assume is the one earlier from Nov 24? If so, sorry but I don't buy your interpretation. An elderly Black man was seen on the 6th floor by Arnold Rowland. That man's description matched Eddie Piper. Eddie Piper's alibi for that time is less than wafer thin. He admits having a brief chat with Oswald about lunch and claims that he watched the motorcade from the 1st floor. That element is in the article. It had nothing to do with the elevator race - and everything to do with Piper. But since Piper was highly unlikely in the motorcade viewing spot he claimed to be in - and since Piper, or his double, was seen on the 6th floor - and since the article claims the person rode the elevator to the 6th floor, then back down to the 1st to watch the motorcade - the fact that you are still clinging to a Givens and/or elevator race account, is a bit perplexing to me. I mean, really... the 6th floor was the ideal location to watch from. The 1st floor was absolutely the worst. The oddity in this whole thing is that, despite the fact that you didn't believe that Piper was a "porter," you pegged him as being the man being referred to by the original news report. Why? Because the "porter" referred to said he was on ("went to") the first floor during the parade? So did Troy West, who was also an "elderly Negro." What about his account of not watching the parade didn't you find "suspicious?" Charles Givens, on the other hand, did say that Oswald asked him to "send the car back up for him," or at least a variation on that theme ("make sure the gate is closed" so Oswald could call the elevator back up: Truly testified that it wasn't possible to "send" it anywhere because of the gratings). He was, as you'd interpreted "porter," one of the order-fillers, the person that Meagher (erroneously) referred to as a "porter." Yet from among all that, you've deduced that the article was really referring to Eddie Piper, and not Charles Givens. The article didn't even say that the "building porter" was a black man, so he could have been anyone whose job was the same or like Givens', an order-filler, including Buell Frazier, Billy Lovelady or Jack Dougherty. The one man whom you didn't believe to have been a "porter" even despite his describing himself as such, is the man you pegged as the subject of this article. Why? Your logic doesn't follow, since you had to know that Piper wasn't an order-filler, so if that was what "porter" meant, it eliminated Piper from consideration, not made him the sole suspect. All that "works" in that logic are the facts that Piper said he watched the parade from the first floor, and you don't believe him; that you believe that the "elderly Negro" described by Arnold Rowland was, for some reason, none other than Eddie Piper; and that Piper must have lied about being on the first floor, because you think it was "absolutely the worst" place to watch the parade from. The sixth floor, on the other hand, was "ideal" (really? Even better than, say, the fifth, which was closer to the ground?), so since nobody would really watch the parade from the first floor, Piper must've been on the sixth. QED? It's not Piper's "alibi" that's "less than wafer thin" here, it's the premise that Piper was on the sixth floor simply because he was "an elderly Negro" whose testimony you don't believe. Troy West filled that bill too, y'know: how do you know he's telling the truth? What color shirt did he wear to work that day? Did it match Rowland's description? Was he "bald or very nearly bald?" "Very thin?" What other than your distrust of his testimony puts him on the sixth floor? And what about Bonnie Ray Williams, who was clearly on the sixth floor immediately prior to the shooting? Other than that he wasn't "elderly," what is it that eliminates him from being the man Rowland saw? Amos Euins, we'll recall, described a black man on six who had a "white spot" on his head (early reports said he'd seen a "white man" there, which Euins protested in his testimony), just as Williams himself did, at least at a later point when his compadres noticed it. There's no "meat" in this argument as far as I can tell, nor does there seem to be any connection between "Piper's" being on the sixth floor at the time of the shooting and the "concoction" of Givens' story about seeing Oswald upstairs 30 minutes earlier that I can discern either. And there is no logic to support the contention that "if there was nothing to the Waldo story -- you would not have a change in Givens' story" since Waldo's story seems to be about a witness who had been "held in protected custody" for more than two months that nobody then or now knows anything about. Even Bonnie Ray Williams never claimed to be able to "identify Lee Oswald as slayer of President Kennedy," and we know he was there. The only connection between that story and Piper seems to be the use of the words "porter" (which you believed Piper wasn't, according to your perception of a porter as an order-filler) and "janitor" (which we all know Piper was), and the fact that the latter term was used by Roy Truly. Beyond pure conjecture, you can't put Eddie Piper in or near the sniper's nest or on the sixth floor. Stop trying: it's never going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Lane Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Confusion between Eddie Piper & Charles Givens Eddie Piper claimed to have spoken to Oswald on the 1st floor around noon about lunch - with Oswald muttering something about going "up" or "out". He then claims to have watched the motorcade from a 1st floor window - which was not actually possible from the window he claimed. At least - not if you wanted to actually see anything. He also claimed that during the fusillade, he ran over to the packing table where a clock was located to see what time it was. In his first two statements, he said the time had been 12:25 - which just happened to be the AMENDED time the motorcade was supposed to pass. It was however, delayed a further 5 minutes. Was this clock just 5 minutes slow, or was Piper devising his alibi for what he thought was the time of the hit? I believe it was the latter, as Bill Shelley testified Piper was running to the wrapping table at the time he (Shelley) came back inside. This was well past the time of the last shot. Once before the WC, Piper was allowed a free pass to amend his previous statements to say that the time on the clock was somewhere between 12:27 and 12:30. If Piper wasn't watching the motorcade from a window he could not see out of, where had he been just prior to running to the wrapping table? Charles Givens' various versions of his lunch hour are well known, culminating in the story that he returned to the 6th floor to retrieve cigarettes and that in doing so, he saw Oswald on the 6th floor and had the following exchange: Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you? Mr. GIVENS. I say, "It's near lunch time." He said, "No, sir. When you get downstairs, dose the gate to the elevator." That meant the elevator on the west side, you can pull both gates down and it will come up by itself. But minus any mention of lunch, this exchange actually took place when Givens descended with the others for the commencement of the lunch break. Here is Bonnie Ray Williams on the subject: Mr. BALL. Now, did something happen on the way down--did somebody yell out? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; on the way down I heard Oswald--and I am not sure whether he was on the fifth or the sixth floor. But on the way down Oswald hollered "Guys, how about an elevator?" I don't know whether those are his exact words. But he said something about the elevator. And Charles said, "Come on, boy," just like that. And he said, "Close the gate on the elevator and send the elevator back up." I don't know what happened after that. Representative FORD.Had the elevator gone down below the floor from which he yelled? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I believe it was. I assume it was the fifth or the sixth. The reason I could not tell whether it was the sixth or the fifth is because I was on the opposite elevator, and if you are not thinking about it it is kind of hard to judge which floor, if you started moving. Representative FORD.The elevator did not go back up to the floor from which he yelled? Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. Mr. DULLES. Did he ask the gate be closed on the elevator? Mr. WILLIAMS. I think he asked Charles Givens--I think he said, "Close the gate on the elevator, or send one of the elevators back up." I think that is what he said. Mr. McCLOY. That is in order that he would have an elevator to come down when he wanted to come down? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Billy Lovelady Mr. LOVELADY. Yes; he was on the opposite side of the elevator I was on. I heard him holier to one of the boys to stop, he wanted the elevator. They said, "No; we're going down to lunch," and closed the gate I was on and come down and got ready to watch the President come by or got ready to go to lunch, and that's the last I heard of him. down and got ready to watch the President come by or got ready to go to lunch, and that's the last I heard of him. Danny Arce Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald or hear him speak on the way down? Mr. ARCE. Yeah, he was up there and I believe someone asked if he wanted to go down. Mr. BALL. He was there---on what floor? Mr. ARCE. That's what I'm not too sure; I believe he was on five or the sixth floor. I am not too sure but we were going down and I believe he was on the fifth; I am not too sure. I do not believe Oswald had the same conversation with Givens twice within minutes - nor do I believe Williams, Lovelady and Arce all lied. The question is why Givens lied about going back up. There has been speculation about why in the past about that - all ill-founded. He was coerced, bribed, threatened or whatever else into covering for Piper.... This just gets stranger and stranger, so let's get to the nub of it: what was Piper's supposed motive for being involved in a conspiracy to kill the President of the United States? Why did the FBI, DPD and other LEAs along with the WC work so hard to cover up the obvious connection to the "Colored Conspiracy" in favor of "a Commie did it" solution when these highly organized black men would've made just as convenient a set of scapegoats as ol' "Maggie's Drawers" himself? Who do you propose "coerced, bribed, [or] threatened" Givens (and, clearly, Bonnie Ray Williams, Hank Norman, Junior Jarman and Jack Dougherty, to name only the most obvious) into "covering for Piper?" Other than Rowland's description of an "elderly Negro" in the window and your distrust of Piper's testimony, why on earth do you think Piper had anything at all to do with JFK's murder? He didn't have to operate an elevator for anyone. He didn't normally go to the sixth floor for anything, and had no special knowledge of it. There was no particular need for him to be there unless he was involved in the shooting. So why would he have been there? I don't know why you have such trouble imagining that Oswald would have "the same conversation" with someone twice in a matter of only a few minutes, especially when the first supposed instance was not an actual conversation, per se, but rather a general admonition to the half-dozen men who had taken both elevators - unnecessarily, since either one of them would have fit all the men easily - downstairs while Oswald was still up there. Why, within a few minutes and after apparently not checking to see if the men had closed the gate as he'd asked, would Oswald not say anything to someone whom he saw going downstairs again? Do you think it's odd that, not being sure that his request was complied with, someone would ask the next person he saw going into a down-elevator to double-check the gate for him? None of the men in the "elevator race" said that Oswald was right there, asking them all conversationally to "please be sure to close the gate," certain that each and all of them had heard him, or even knowing who-all, specifically, was a part of the "race." Why, given a chance to make sure that the gate was closed by asking Givens to check it, would Oswald not have done that? This has all the hallmarks of the evidence fitting the conclusion, rather than the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) Confusion between Eddie Piper & Charles Givens Eddie Piper claimed to have spoken to Oswald on the 1st floor around noon about lunch - with Oswald muttering something about going "up" or "out". He then claims to have watched the motorcade from a 1st floor window - which was not actually possible from the window he claimed. At least - not if you wanted to actually see anything. He also claimed that during the fusillade, he ran over to the packing table where a clock was located to see what time it was. In his first two statements, he said the time had been 12:25 - which just happened to be the AMENDED time the motorcade was supposed to pass. It was however, delayed a further 5 minutes. Was this clock just 5 minutes slow, or was Piper devising his alibi for what he thought was the time of the hit? I believe it was the latter, as Bill Shelley testified Piper was running to the wrapping table at the time he (Shelley) came back inside. This was well past the time of the last shot. Once before the WC, Piper was allowed a free pass to amend his previous statements to say that the time on the clock was somewhere between 12:27 and 12:30. If Piper wasn't watching the motorcade from a window he could not see out of, where had he been just prior to running to the wrapping table? Charles Givens' various versions of his lunch hour are well known, culminating in the story that he returned to the 6th floor to retrieve cigarettes and that in doing so, he saw Oswald on the 6th floor and had the following exchange: Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you? Mr. GIVENS. I say, "It's near lunch time." He said, "No, sir. When you get downstairs, dose the gate to the elevator." That meant the elevator on the west side, you can pull both gates down and it will come up by itself. But minus any mention of lunch, this exchange actually took place when Givens descended with the others for the commencement of the lunch break. Here is Bonnie Ray Williams on the subject: Mr. BALL. Now, did something happen on the way down--did somebody yell out? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; on the way down I heard Oswald--and I am not sure whether he was on the fifth or the sixth floor. But on the way down Oswald hollered "Guys, how about an elevator?" I don't know whether those are his exact words. But he said something about the elevator. And Charles said, "Come on, boy," just like that. And he said, "Close the gate on the elevator and send the elevator back up." I don't know what happened after that. Representative FORD.Had the elevator gone down below the floor from which he yelled? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I believe it was. I assume it was the fifth or the sixth. The reason I could not tell whether it was the sixth or the fifth is because I was on the opposite elevator, and if you are not thinking about it it is kind of hard to judge which floor, if you started moving. Representative FORD.The elevator did not go back up to the floor from which he yelled? Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. Mr. DULLES. Did he ask the gate be closed on the elevator? Mr. WILLIAMS. I think he asked Charles Givens--I think he said, "Close the gate on the elevator, or send one of the elevators back up." I think that is what he said. Mr. McCLOY. That is in order that he would have an elevator to come down when he wanted to come down? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Billy Lovelady Mr. LOVELADY. Yes; he was on the opposite side of the elevator I was on. I heard him holier to one of the boys to stop, he wanted the elevator. They said, "No; we're going down to lunch," and closed the gate I was on and come down and got ready to watch the President come by or got ready to go to lunch, and that's the last I heard of him. down and got ready to watch the President come by or got ready to go to lunch, and that's the last I heard of him. Danny Arce Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald or hear him speak on the way down? Mr. ARCE. Yeah, he was up there and I believe someone asked if he wanted to go down. Mr. BALL. He was there---on what floor? Mr. ARCE. That's what I'm not too sure; I believe he was on five or the sixth floor. I am not too sure but we were going down and I believe he was on the fifth; I am not too sure. I do not believe Oswald had the same conversation with Givens twice within minutes - nor do I believe Williams, Lovelady and Arce all lied. The question is why Givens lied about going back up. There has been speculation about why in the past about that - all ill-founded. He was coerced, bribed, threatened or whatever else into covering for Piper.... This just gets stranger and stranger, so let's get to the nub of it: what was Piper's supposed motive for being involved in a conspiracy to kill the President of the United States? Why did the FBI, DPD and other LEAs along with the WC work so hard to cover up the obvious connection to the "Colored Conspiracy" in favor of "a Commie did it" solution when these highly organized black men would've made just as convenient a set of scapegoats as ol' "Maggie's Drawers" himself? Who do you propose "coerced, bribed, [or] threatened" Givens (and, clearly, Bonnie Ray Williams, Hank Norman, Junior Jarman and Jack Dougherty, to name only the most obvious) into "covering for Piper?" Other than Rowland's description of an "elderly Negro" in the window and your distrust of Piper's testimony, why on earth do you think Piper had anything at all to do with JFK's murder? He didn't have to operate an elevator for anyone. He didn't normally go to the sixth floor for anything, and had no special knowledge of it. There was no particular need for him to be there unless he was involved in the shooting. So why would he have been there? I don't know why you have such trouble imagining that Oswald would have "the same conversation" with someone twice in a matter of only a few minutes, especially when the first supposed instance was not an actual conversation, per se, but rather a general admonition to the half-dozen men who had taken both elevators - unnecessarily, since either one of them would have fit all the men easily - downstairs while Oswald was still up there. Why, within a few minutes and after apparently not checking to see if the men had closed the gate as he'd asked, would Oswald not say anything to someone whom he saw going downstairs again? Do you think it's odd that, not being sure that his request was complied with, someone would ask the next person he saw going into a down-elevator to double-check the gate for him? None of the men in the "elevator race" said that Oswald was right there, asking them all conversationally to "please be sure to close the gate," certain that each and all of them had heard him, or even knowing who-all, specifically, was a part of the "race." Why, given a chance to make sure that the gate was closed by asking Givens to check it, would Oswald not have done that? This has all the hallmarks of the evidence fitting the conclusion, rather than the other way around. Greg, you just keep doing what you have always done, from where I sit, I think for a site that ostensibly is predicated on there being a conspiracy in the Kennedy assassination, there are more than enough Lone Nutters to balance everything out here on the Forum........ You may find the following helpful.... ADMIN FOLDER-Y11: HSCA ADMINISTRATIVE FOLDER, US SECRET SERVICE FOLDER http://www.maryferre....do?docId=10134 page 167 climbing on back of the President's car. When he heard the second shot, he saw it hit the President's head and the President slumped out of sight towards Mrs. Kennedy. He estimates the time-lapse between the first and second report at about 4 or 5 seconds. He thought that the shot had come from somewhere toward the front right-hand side of the road. When he looked in that direction, he saw the only person he can recall seeing clearly who was a Negro male in light green slacks and a beige colored shirt running from Landis left to right, up the slope, across the grass, along the sidewalk, bending over while running. Landis started to point towards him, but didn't notice anything in his hands..... Robert: There is a larger context to this story in CD 1168, if you read the entire document, they are perhaps accurately showing how Thayer Waldo, misconstrued a conversation between Deputies Howard and Bryan, to mean that the Dallas Police were hiding out a "suspect" in the Kennedy assassination, but even so, the account re the Negro male suspect below in my estimation is accurate and, on the next page there are denials, denials, denials by James Howard. Waldo did goof up, but I believe he picked up accurately re the significance of the "Negro janitor" http://www.maryferre...564&relPageId=8 page 9 Deputy Howard and I were discussing an incident which Det. JACK BRYAN of the Dallas P.D. had told me on January 1, 1964 concerning a Negro male suspect who was being questioned in connection with his being in the Texas School Book Depository on the day of the assassination and having hurriedly left sometime afterwards. [Waldo was in the car] When questioned as to why he left in such a hurry, the suspect stated since he had a police record he would probably be suspected of involvement in the shooting at no time did I state that a rifle had been found on the roof of the Texas Book Depository which had been dropped by a Dallas police officer typed signature "JAMES M HOWARD Special Agent Oswald 201 Files Box 29 [Robert 2 pages deep; Document below is from page 2 1993.05.21.16:15:22:460000 ARTICLE IN FORT WORTH STAR BY THAYER WALDO ON 2/10/64 CONCERNING ALLEG ATION WITNESS HELD IN PROTECTIVE CUSTODY "man, you don't know how fast is fast unless you saw me run" referring to his exit from the School Book Depository. http://www.maryferre...746&relPageId=6 Below Possible inter-relationship? CABLE CONCERNING OSCAR RODRIGUEZ MOLINA 19 Aug 1964, KUJUMP HOUSTON ADVISED KUJUMP WAVE AREA OF FOLL: OSCAR RODRIGUEZ MOLINA DPOB: 10 DEC 29 JARUCO HAVA EFFECTED BLACK RIVER CROSSING FROM MEXICO TO BROWNSVILLE, TEX 18 AUG. WAVE SENDING WILFRED O. CLOWER TO HOUSTON/BROWNSVILLE ASSESS FURTHER DETERMINE CIS MISSION http://www.maryferre....do?docId=32269 "At every crossroads on the path that leads to the future, tradition has placed 10,000 men to guard the past." - Maurice Maeterlinck Edited August 22, 2011 by Robert Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) edit Edited October 25, 2012 by Greg Parker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) edit Edited October 25, 2012 by Greg Parker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) edit Edited October 25, 2012 by Greg Parker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Gaal Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 BLACK RIVER CROSSING FROM MEXICO TO BROWNSVILLE ?? Mr. Parker,Is there a map for this area ? thanks sg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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