Edwin Walker

[Robert Mady]

Paul T., it is understandable that WALKER and JBC were linked to the distribution of propaganda against President KENNEDY, where is the link they mastermind the assassination or carried out the assassination?

How did they persuade the US Military to alter the wounds and create a false autopsy report.

How did they persuade the CIA to alter evidence?

The FBI was on site immediately after the assassination pressuring witnesses to adopt three shots originating from the TSBD story, this means that the FBI had been persuaded to join in the coup also.

Where are the links?

Edited March 1, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Paul Brancato]

Agree Robert. None of your objections pertain to the right wing conspiracy, just the idea that Walker and the JBS or Minutemen could have masterminded it. One of the facts on the ground in Dallas was the overlaps between Dallas cops, Dallas officials, motorcade planners and participants, local military intelligence, JBS, Minutemen, KKK etc etc. I am pretty sure you won't find FBI or SS agents belonging to other right wing racists groups, but that doesn't tell us what their belief systems were or what unofficial connections they had to hate groups through friendships etc. Same for Joint Chiefs or CIA brass. The hate was pretty widespread. If it were to turn out that Walker and Banister did spearhead the operation it would not indicate that they were the top of the pyramid.

[Ernie Lazar]

Agree Robert. None of your objections pertain to the right wing conspiracy, just the idea that Walker and the JBS or Minutemen could have masterminded it. One of the facts on the ground in Dallas was the overlaps between Dallas cops, Dallas officials, motorcade planners and participants, local military intelligence, JBS, Minutemen, KKK etc etc. I am pretty sure you won't find FBI or SS agents belonging to other right wing racists groups, but that doesn't tell us what their belief systems were or what unofficial connections they had to hate groups through friendships etc. Same for Joint Chiefs or CIA brass. The hate was pretty widespread. If it were to turn out that Walker and Banister did spearhead the operation it would not indicate that they were the top of the pyramid.

It should be noted that Walker's friends and associates did not think he had a very acute mind. In fact, his friends and allies advised him to keep his mouth shut because they were worried about the harm his outbursts or incoherent speeches might cause, Although Paul Trejo disagrees with me about this, I don't think anybody who had frequent personal contacts with Walker believed he would be capable of masterminding or faciitating or executing any sort of complex conspiratorial plot -- which is why I have repeatedly argued here and elsewhere that it strains credulity that someone like Walker would be involved with more educated and competent people like Rousselot or Welch as though he were their equals.

[David G. Healy]

what strains credulity is one assuming a "General" looks on anyone as an equal other than *other* Generals, of course! Education and *competence* notwithstanding!

[Paul Trejo]

what strains credulity is one assuming a "General" looks on anyone as an equal other than *other* Generals, of course! Education and *competence* notwithstanding!

I understand this viewpoint, David, yet please consider an alternative.

Ex-General Edwin Walker is the only US General to resign in the 20th century. In resigning, Walker forfeited his Army Pension -- 30 years worth.

Walker successfully resigned from the US Army in 1961, but Walker had unsuccessfully resigned in 1959, under President Eisenhower. Ike's Administration simply denied the resignation and gave Walker command over ten thousand troops and their dependents in Augsburg, Germany (1959-1961).

What led Walker to such a rash act? One gets a clue from his resignation statement in 1959 -- Walker blamed a "Fifth Column Conspiracy" that prevented him from doing his duty -- and evidently prevented him from respecting the Joint Chiefs or the US President. The operative word there is "Conspiracy".

The year, 1959, is the same year that Walker had joined the John Birch Society. A secret document, The Politician, by Robert Welch, was being read by a select few, including Walker, and this document accused President Eisenhower of being a 'deliberate, conscious agent of the Communist Conspiracy.'

It appears that Edwin Walker bought this nonsense, hook, line and sinker. Walker joined the JBS, and then quit the US Army. Who wants to work for a Communist? And if the Joint Chiefs all work for a Communist, then they might be Communists, too!

So, Walker quit the US Army in a huff -- disrespecting the US President and the US Joint Chiefs of Staff.

This, I believe, is a critical clue into the psychology of Edwin Walker, but also a critical clue in the historical resolution of the JFK murder. It's not just that Walker looked down upon everybody else besides other US Generals -- actually, Walker looked down on other US Generals, too.

The few people Ex-General Walker respected were the ranking members of the John Birch Society. Yet even among the JBS, Walker tended to push his rank around (e.g. at Ole Miss in 1962, and the Adlai humiliation of 1963).

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edited>

Edited March 2, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Paul T., it is understandable that WALKER and JBC were linked to the distribution of propaganda againstPresident KENNEDY, where is the link they mastermind the assassination or carried out the assassination?

How did they persuade the US Military to alter the wounds and create a false autopsy report.

How did they persuade the CIA to alter evidence?

The FBI was on site immediately after the assassination pressuring witnesses to adopt three shots originating from the TSBD story, this means that the FBI had been persuaded to join in the coup also.

Where are the links?

Well, Bob, I think the connecting links are these:

(1) Jack Ruby told Earl Warren that Edwin WALKER and the JBS were behind the JFK murder.

(2) Harry Dean has claimed since January 1965 that he heard Edwin WALKER announce at a Southern California JBS meeting in September 1963 that he found the perfect patsy for a JFK assassination plot, namely, Lee Harvey OSWALD, Director of the FPCC in New Orleans. Harry also claims that he volunteered this information to the FBI in 1963.

(3) Edwin WALKER told the Warren Commission he never heard of Lee Harvey OSWALD until after the JFK murder, but he told many other people (including Senator Frank Church in 1978) that he was interested in Lee Harvey OSWALD since April 1963, after the attempt on his life at his home in Dallas.

(4) Edwin WALKER called a neo-Nazi newspaper in Germany on the morning after the JFK murder, to boast that Lee Harvey OSWALD had also been his shooter in April 1963.

(5) Edwin WALKER -- though shunned by mainstream politics after his Ole Miss riots of 1962 -- was still a leader in the radical USA right-wing, and had followers in Dallas, including JBS members, Minutemen and Dallas Police.

(6) Edwin WALKER organized the attack on Adlai Stevenson the night before Adlai's speech in Dallas -- and his followers carried out his instructions to the letter (without Walker's attendance), completely humiliating Ambassador Stevenson in Dallas on 24 October 1963.

Next, Bob, you ask how Edwin WALKER persuaded the US Military to alter the JFK wounds and JFK autopsy report, and the CIA to alter evidence:

(i) I disagree with the premise of your question, Bob. You are assuming that the alteration of evidence in the JFK murder was PLANNED.

(ii) I maintain that the alteration of evidence in the JFK murder was UNPLANNED.

(iii) I maintain that all of the alteration of evidence in the JFK murder -- without exception -- was always to defend the hypothesis of a "Lone Shooter," and that hypothesis was first conceived by J. Edgar Hoover around 3pm CST on 11/22/1963.

(iv) Edwin WALKER (and Guy Banister, according to me) had spent months from April 1963 through September 1963, FRAMING Lee Harvey OSWALD as a fellow-traveler with Communists as the Director of the New Orleans FPCC branch.

(v) Edwin WALKER objected frequently to the notion of a "Lone Shooter" in the JFK murder. WALKER insisted on a "Communist" plot -- but the FBI refused to buy it. Hoover mandated a "Lone Shooter" -- without any accomplices who were still at large -- and that was that.

(vi) The CIA, like the Warren Commission and LBJ himself, simply accepted the FBI Director's hypothesis of the "Lone Shooter" on grounds of "National Security," and would not allow any "accomplices" for OSWALD of any kind to be legitimized.

(vii) There was no coup. Edwin WALKER and the JBS did attempt to stage a coup, in which the USA would invade Cuba and kill Fidel Castro. They failed. J. Edgar Hoover, LBJ, Earl Warren and Allen Dulles prevented WALKER's coup by using the "Lone Shooter" hypothesis on grounds of "National Security." It worked.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited March 2, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Ernie Lazar]

As many of you know, during the past 34 years I have made thousands of FOIA requests to many government agencies -- and, in particular, to the FBI.

Most of the files I acquired during those 34 years were received as paper documents during the 1980's, 1990's and early 2000's. I stored those paper files (about 400,000 pages) in about 100 large boxes. I often receive inquiries about subject matters contained in those paper files but until now I had no way of sharing those files. Frequently, I was the only person to request and receive documents on the subject matters in those files. Even worse, many of these paper files have now been destroyed by the FBI or other agencies.

But thanks to the kindness and generosity of several individuals, recently my paper files boxes were transported to Internet Archive in San Francisco. In the future, my paper files collection will be scanned and posted online -- and then they will be donated to an appropriate institution.

I still have scores of FOIA requests pending with the FBI as well as with the Secret Service and NARA and other agencies. Those requests will be released to me on CD or DVD so that I can copy them and post them on Internet Archive.

I know there is a lot of material in those boxes which will be fascinating to historians and students of both FBI and U.S. history (including about Edwin Walker, the Birch Society, and related subjects) and I hope all of you will find them useful.

[Paul Trejo]

As many of you know, during the past 34 years I have made thousands of FOIA requests to many government agencies -- and, in particular, to the FBI.

Most of the files I acquired during those 34 years were received as paper documents during the 1980's, 1990's and early 2000's. I stored those paper files (about 400,000 pages) in about 100 large boxes. I often receive inquiries about subject matters contained in those paper files but until now I had no way of sharing those files. Frequently, I was the only person to request and receive documents on the subject matters in those files. Even worse, many of these paper files have now been destroyed by the FBI or other agencies.

But thanks to the kindness and generosity of several individuals, recently my paper files boxes were transported to Internet Archive in San Francisco. In the future, my paper files collection will be scanned and posted online -- and then they will be donated to an appropriate institution.

I still have scores of FOIA requests pending with the FBI as well as with the Secret Service and NARA and other agencies. Those requests will be released to me on CD or DVD so that I can copy them and post them on Internet Archive.

I know there is a lot of material in those boxes which will be fascinating to historians and students of both FBI and U.S. history (including about Edwin Walker, the Birch Society, and related subjects) and I hope all of you will find them useful.

Thank you Ernie, for your years of collecting and sharing FBI documents with students around the world.

It is my hope that with your future acquisitions of FBI material on Ex-General Edwin WALKER will be useful in tracing the actual planning and execution of the JFK murder.

Up to this point, only a few clues are known -- since the JFK Records Act and the ARRB will release its final FOIA documents on 26 October 2017 -- roughly 2.5 years from now.

We are all taking good care, I believe, to ensure our good health for that coming great day.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Ernie Lazar]

As many of you know, during the past 34 years I have made thousands of FOIA requests to many government agencies -- and, in particular, to the FBI.

Most of the files I acquired during those 34 years were received as paper documents during the 1980's, 1990's and early 2000's. I stored those paper files (about 400,000 pages) in about 100 large boxes. I often receive inquiries about subject matters contained in those paper files but until now I had no way of sharing those files. Frequently, I was the only person to request and receive documents on the subject matters in those files. Even worse, many of these paper files have now been destroyed by the FBI or other agencies.

But thanks to the kindness and generosity of several individuals, recently my paper files boxes were transported to Internet Archive in San Francisco. In the future, my paper files collection will be scanned and posted online -- and then they will be donated to an appropriate institution.

I still have scores of FOIA requests pending with the FBI as well as with the Secret Service and NARA and other agencies. Those requests will be released to me on CD or DVD so that I can copy them and post them on Internet Archive.

I know there is a lot of material in those boxes which will be fascinating to historians and students of both FBI and U.S. history (including about Edwin Walker, the Birch Society, and related subjects) and I hope all of you will find them useful.

Thank you Ernie, for your years of collecting and sharing FBI documents with students around the world.

It is my hope that with your future acquisitions of FBI material on Ex-General Edwin WALKER will be useful in tracing the actual planning and execution of the JFK murder.

Up to this point, only a few clues are known -- since the JFK Records Act and the ARRB will release its final FOIA documents on 26 October 2017 -- roughly 2.5 years from now.

We are all taking good care, I believe, to ensure our good health for that coming great day.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Well, Paul, thanks for your sentiments but I often have a very hard time understanding you because just a few months ago you wrote:

"You have spent a lot of years and a lot of money filling out FOIA requests for the FBI, and you've identified 'tens of thousands of pages' of mostly useless junk -- which interests almost nobody but yourself..."

As of this morning, my "useless junk" has been downloaded 232,215 times on Internet Archive alone -- and many very well-known historians (including some prominent JFK-researchers whom everyone here on EF knows) are sending me emails all the time thanking me for what I have done or asking me for copies of the "useless junk" I have in my collection or asking my permission to use or cite material of mine which they saw referenced on some website.

With respect to Edwin Walker -- aside from private correspondence archived at various colleges, universities, state historical societies, or other institutions which is often extremely difficult to find or expensive to acquire (some of which I have sent to you) -- there is a lot of Walker-related material which is in my paper files now at Internet Archive and that material will eventually be available to any interested researcher -- and, hopefully, will be online.

However, I am not aware of any verifiable factual info which will support your contentions regarding Walker and your "JBS plot" ideas. Hopefully, Caulfield's book will be published this year so that we can see whatever he has been able to uncover.

Lastly, for the 100th time, the JFK Records Act (which is the controlling legislation) and the ARRB -- have both been clear regarding what type of data was being withheld until 2017. In addition, the ARRB produced a very detailed Final Report which is quite explicit regarding what information they permitted to remain classified until 2017 (and, consequently, withheld from public scrutiny).

The primary reason why conspiracy arguments cannot be falsified is because they are constructed to preclude application of normal rules of evidence and logic -- and, as a result, they become circular and/or self-sealing arguments impervious to normal human reasoning.

We have discussed this many times before but I will briefly remind you that:

(1) if someone starts a discussion with a FALSE or UNPROVEN predicate --- and,

(2) simultaneously, all future analysis and discussion is based upon the original false or unproven predicate -- THEN

(3) the inevitable (and predictable) result is that everyone is required to adopt fallacious reasoning in order to continue the discussion -- and it quickly devolves into a circular argument.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Ernie Lazar

[Paul Trejo]

Well, Paul, thanks for your sentiments but I often have a very hard time understanding you because just a few months ago you wrote:

"You have spent a lot of years and a lot of money filling out FOIA requests for the FBI, and you've identified 'tens of thousands of pages' of mostly useless junk -- which interests almost nobody but yourself..."

As of this morning, my "useless junk" has been downloaded 232,215 times on Internet Archive alone -- and many very well-known historians (including some prominent JFK-researchers whom everyone here on EF knows) are sending me emails all the time thanking me for what I have done or asking me for copies of the "useless junk" I have in my collection or asking my permission to use or cite material of mine which they saw referenced on some website...

Clearly, Ernie, when I wrote that, it was strictly in the context of resolving the Harry Dean dilemma over the past several years.

In addition to making FBI documents available to the public at a unique pace, you have also spent quite a lot of time attempting to disprove the claims made by Harry Dean since 1965 about the JFK murder.

Of your useful FBI material -- countless thousands of pages worth -- only a few dozen at most are related to the Harry Dean case -- and I was underscoring my opinion that you haven't truly arrived at conclusive data about Harry Dean, although you believe you have.

Instead, we must all wait until 26 October 2017 until the JFK Records Act finally reveals all of the US Government top secret data about the JFK murder.

We can agree to disagree on that fine point, Ernie. Aside from that point, your collection and your public sharing of FBI data are commendable, IMHO.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 14, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Ernie Lazar]

Well, Paul, thanks for your sentiments but I often have a very hard time understanding you because just a few months ago you wrote:

"You have spent a lot of years and a lot of money filling out FOIA requests for the FBI, and you've identified 'tens of thousands of pages' of mostly useless junk -- which interests almost nobody but yourself..."

As of this morning, my "useless junk" has been downloaded 232,215 times on Internet Archive alone -- and many very well-known historians (including some prominent JFK-researchers whom everyone here on EF knows) are sending me emails all the time thanking me for what I have done or asking me for copies of the "useless junk" I have in my collection or asking my permission to use or cite material of mine which they saw referenced on some website...

Clearly, Ernie, when I wrote that, it was strictly in the context of resolving the Harry Dean dilemma over the past several years.

In addition to making FBI documents available to the public at a unique pace, you have also spent quite a lot of time attempting to disprove the claims made by Harry Dean since 1965 about the JFK murder.

Of your useful FBI material -- countless thousands of pages worth -- only a few dozen at most are related to the Harry Dean case -- and I was underscoring my opinion that you haven't truly arrived at conclusive data about Harry Dean, although you believe you have.

Instead, we must all wait until 26 October 2017 until the JFK Records Act finally reveals all of the US Government top secret data about the JFK murder.

We can agree to disagree on that fine point, Ernie. Aside from that point, your collection and your public sharing of FBI data are commendable, IMHO.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

I disagree with your comment Paul. The "context" of my original comment and your subsequent reply was not limited to Harry Dean as anybody can see from your total comment:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=f9c7ce05d76486ebbe01486231550d9d&showtopic=4269&page=99

My original "comment" actually was in the form of a question to you, i.e. what should researchers research with respect to your claims about a "JBS plot", i.e. what, exactly, remains to be obtained and reviewed -- and where is that material located?

THAT is why I expressed skepticism about your claim regarding a potential "gold mine" of available evidence which still needed to be reviewed. I replied to you as follows:

...Where is your hypothetical "gold mine" located?

On several occasions, members of the Birch Society (including very senior officials) have challenged me to explain why I was so "hostile" toward the JBS and why I keep "attacking" JBS arguments. I then would explain, patiently, how I got interested in the subject. And I pointed out that when I first discovered that NOBODY had ever made an FOIA request to the FBI regarding the JBS and about JBS-related subjects, I was absolutely astonished. THEN---when I discovered that the FBI identified TENS OF THOUSANDS of pages of responsive documents I was ecstatic! Because I really had found an incredible "gold mine" which no other researcher had seen.

The problem with YOUR comment is that there is NOTHING to research. There is no evidence trail to pursue.

1. Harry has no documents.

2. You have no documents.

3. The documents in FBI files about Harry do not support your or his contentions.

4. Nor does Harry's CIA file.

5. There is no LIVING person to interview (other than Harry).

6. There are no OTHER personal papers (other than Walker's) of the alleged principals to the "JBS plot" to review.

​SO WHERE IS YOUR GOLD MINE????

As can be seen -- the "context" was clearly in terms of discovering a NEW evidence trail which could (and should) be pursued.

1. Unlike Harry and yourself -- I expended the effort to obtain Harry's FBI and CIA files -- and because I did so, we all were able to see (for the very first time) NEW primary source evidence contained in those files -- including letters written by Harry! [bTW---I certainly understand why you want to devalue the the significance of what can be found in Harry's FBI and CIA files as "only a few dozen [pages] at most" -- but the quantity of pages should not be our focus. Instead, what those documents reveal should be the salient point. And when combined with the hundreds or thousands of other pages from other files --- there is only one rational conclusion to be drawn.

2. I mentioned to you that, many years before I started commenting here in EF, I had already acquired numerous FBI files which pertain to many of Harry's assertions (as have other people) and those files DO NOT contain any documents supporting Harry's statements or your assertions.

3. I also mentioned that (again, unlike Harry and yourself), I submitted new FOIA requests for all sorts of subjects and specific FBI file or serial numbers which are listed in Harry's FBI files along with subjects mentioned in your eBook. But (as of today) I still have not found anything to support your contentions regarding any sort of "JBS plot".

ALSO: almost nothing exists in those documents which supports Harry's story -- other than, yes, Harry wrote letters to the FBI and he made unsolicited phone calls whenever Harry thought the FBI would like to know something which Harry was privy to.

4. In addition, (although you have been VERY reluctant to explicitly answer my questions), it appears that Edwin Walker's personal papers DO NOT contain any documents which clearly link Walker to Harry Dean. Nor do his papers link Walker to any of the other principals which are the key figures in your "JBS plot" theory --- such as Galbadon and Rousselot.

5. In other words, apparently there is no "evidence trail" to pursue in Walker's personal papers, i.e. nothing which establishes that...

5.1 Walker was in frequent contact with the "plot" principals OR

5.2 Walker wrote letters to some third party which discussed anybody who was in any way connected to "the plot" OR

5.3 Apparently, from your cryptic comments, there is also nothing in Walker's papers to indicate that Walker ever wrote anything acknowledging that he even knew about the existence of the people who are most frequently mentioned as being in meetings during which the "plot" was discussed. (Dean, Galbadon, Hall, etc.) or -- if you prefer to add him -- Dr. Stanley Drennan.

THAT IS THE ENTIRE CONTEXT WHICH PRODUCED YOUR COMMENT.

So I still wonder where your "gold mine" is located? What should a researcher research?

[Paul Trejo]

I disagree with your comment Paul. The "context" of my original comment and your subsequent reply was not limited to Harry Dean...

My original "comment" actually was in the form of a question to you, i.e. what should researchers research with respect to your claims about a "JBS plot", i.e. what, exactly, remains to be obtained and reviewed -- and where is that material located?

THAT is why I expressed skepticism about your claim regarding a potential "gold mine" of available evidence which still needed to be reviewed. I replied to you as follows:

...Where is your hypothetical "gold mine" located?

On several occasions, members of the Birch Society (including very senior officials) have challenged me to explain why I was so "hostile" toward the JBS and why I keep "attacking" JBS arguments. I then would explain, patiently, how I got interested in the subject. And I pointed out that when I first discovered that NOBODY had ever made an FOIA request to the FBI regarding the JBS and about JBS-related subjects, I was absolutely astonished. THEN---when I discovered that the FBI identified TENS OF THOUSANDS of pages of responsive documents I was ecstatic! Because I really had found an incredible "gold mine" which no other researcher had seen.

The problem with YOUR comment is that there is NOTHING to research. There is no evidence trail to pursue.

1. Harry has no documents.

2. You have no documents.

3. The documents in FBI files about Harry do not support your or his contentions.

4. Nor does Harry's CIA file.

5. There is no LIVING person to interview (other than Harry).

6. There are no OTHER personal papers (other than Walker's) of the alleged principals to the "JBS plot" to review.

​SO WHERE IS YOUR GOLD MINE????

<snip>

No, no, Ernie, the overall "context" of my comment was the Harry Dean controversy, really.

What should researchers research with respect to my JBS plot? What material? Who has it?

It's my belief that Ex-General Edwin WALKER was a headstrong person -- and yet he was also a member of the John Birch Society. He evidently joined the JBS in 1959, just a few days before he submitted his first resignation to the US Army -- citing a "Fifth Column Conspiracy."

It seems to me that Edwin WALKER made quite a few political mistakes -- because he trusted his own judgment too far. For one thing, he sued the European Army newspaper, "Overseas Weekly." Nobody with common sense was suprised when that newspaper later scandalized General Edwin WALKER, and accused him of John Birch Society extremism right there in the US Army.

It wasn't JFK that fired WALKER -- the Joint Chiefs relieved WALKER of his command the very next day, by way of transfer. It was a matter of military decorum -- WALKER had started a "shore flap," so he had to go.

WALKER was like that. He was headstrong; not intellectual, just stubborn and well-trained in military tactics.

For example, take the Ole Miss riots of 30 September 1962, where hundreds were wounded and two were killed trying to prevent Federal Law of racial integration from being enforced for Ole Miss University.

It is fairly evident that the John Birch Society never called for riots at Ole Miss. Robert Welch had nothing to do with those riots -- and he disavowed any connection on the surface. Evidently, this is something that Ex-General Edwin WALKER accomplished entirely on his own.

Yet in the next few weeks, the John Birch Society would publish a book, "Invasion of Mississippi" (1963) by Earl Lively, which blames JFK for the riots, and made WALKER appear to be a courageous patriot and peacemaker at Ole Miss.

So -- one cannot say that Robert Welch fully disagreed with WALKER. JFK said victory has a thousand fathers, but failure is an orphan. If WALKER had been victorious at Ole Miss, I have little doubt that Robert Welch would have taken some bows with WALKER. But since WALKER failed miserably at Ole Miss, I'm not surprised that Robert Welch distanced himself from it -- at first.

The same may be true of the humiliation of Adlai Stevenson on 10/24/1963 in Dallas -- it was a "Commie Trap" prepared the night before by WALKER, along with the Friends of Walker, the JBS, the NIC and the YAF.

Yet perhaps it was firstly the leadership of Ex-General Edwin WALKER that brought the pieces together. The strategy was from Robert Welch -- "never let a Communist finish a speech" was his wise guidance in 1959. WALKER evidently took that advice as Orders, and dutifully prevented Adlai Stevenson (US Ambassador to the UN) from completing his speech. (It is interesting that Lee Harvey OSWALD attended that WALKER meeting, in the very same Dallas Memorial Auditorium where Stevenson was to be humiliated.)

If that was also Edwin WALKER's original tactic for fulfilling the strategy of the John Birch Society -- shall we let the John Birch Society escape without further scrutiny?

I think not.

It seems to me that Edwin WALKER planned the full paramilitary attack on JFK starting at the very latest in September 1963, with assurances in place by October 1963. It seems to me that he was able to do this because -- despite his headstrong personality -- there were people in high places in the extreme right-wing that would follow WALKER's orders.

These followers were members of the Minutemen, members of paramilitary organizations, former military men, and also members of the John Birch Society -- which preached that JFK was a Communist, just as Eisenhower had been a Communist, just as Truman had been a Communist, and just as Roosevelt had been a Communist.

I think the intellectual leadership of the JBS among the extreme right-wing in 1963 contributed in a criminal manner to murder JFK.

These were accomplices, IMHO.

Where should we look? We should first established WALKER's contacts and accomplices in the period of the JFK murder.

We should also obtain as much information on individual Dallas citizens who were also members of the John Birch Society in 1963, especially those who were also members of armed, paramilitary organizations. We will find the JFK killers in this way, IMHO.

Now, who has this material? I believe that individual citizens of Dallas have this information -- about their parents. Children of those parents who were active members of the extreme right-wing politics of 1963 in Dallas -- who were armed and members of armed paramilitary organizations -- they would have this information.

I also believe that the FBI has information about the JFK murder that they are not sharing today -- information will will involve the Dallas JBS, WALKER, OSWALD, and so on.

The John Birch Society may have kept membership lists, but they were careful never to let them become public. We cannot expect the JBS to help with this investigation of their shadier members.

You are quite right that the FBI cannot provide those documents today -- they are sealed under the JFK Records Act until 10/26/2017.

Other than those records -- and future confessions by children of Dallas right-wingers -- I agree that we have no final confirming witness for Harry.

But mining the citizens of Dallas in 2015 -- that's where the best fresh data will come from.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 16, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Ernie Lazar]

I disagree with your comment Paul. The "context" of my original comment and your subsequent reply was not limited to Harry Dean...

My original "comment" actually was in the form of a question to you, i.e. what should researchers research with respect to your claims about a "JBS plot", i.e. what, exactly, remains to be obtained and reviewed -- and where is that material located?

THAT is why I expressed skepticism about your claim regarding a potential "gold mine" of available evidence which still needed to be reviewed. I replied to you as follows:

...Where is your hypothetical "gold mine" located?

On several occasions, members of the Birch Society (including very senior officials) have challenged me to explain why I was so "hostile" toward the JBS and why I keep "attacking" JBS arguments. I then would explain, patiently, how I got interested in the subject. And I pointed out that when I first discovered that NOBODY had ever made an FOIA request to the FBI regarding the JBS and about JBS-related subjects, I was absolutely astonished. THEN---when I discovered that the FBI identified TENS OF THOUSANDS of pages of responsive documents I was ecstatic! Because I really had found an incredible "gold mine" which no other researcher had seen.

The problem with YOUR comment is that there is NOTHING to research. There is no evidence trail to pursue.

1. Harry has no documents.

2. You have no documents.

3. The documents in FBI files about Harry do not support your or his contentions.

4. Nor does Harry's CIA file.

5. There is no LIVING person to interview (other than Harry).

6. There are no OTHER personal papers (other than Walker's) of the alleged principals to the "JBS plot" to review.

​SO WHERE IS YOUR GOLD MINE????

<snip>

No, no, Ernie, the overall "context" of my comment was the Harry Dean controversy, really.

What should researchers research with respect to my JBS plot? What material? Who has it?

It's my belief that Ex-General Edwin WALKER was a headstrong person -- and yet he was also a member of the John Birch Society. He evidently joined the JBS in 1959, just a few days before he submitted his first resignation to the US Army -- citing a "Fifth Column Conspiracy."

It seems to me that Edwin WALKER made quite a few political mistakes -- because he trusted his own judgment too far. For one thing, he sued the European Army newspaper, "Overseas Weekly." Nobody with common sense was suprised when that newspaper later scandalized General Edwin WALKER, and accused him of John Birch Society extremism right there in the US Army.

It wasn't JFK that fired WALKER -- the Joint Chiefs relieved WALKER of his command the very next day, by way of transfer. It was a matter of military decorum -- WALKER had started a "shore flap," so he had to go.

WALKER was like that. He was headstrong; not intellectual, just stubborn and well-trained in military tactics.

For example, take the Ole Miss riots of 30 September 1962, where hundreds were wounded and two were killed trying to prevent Federal Law of racial integration from being enforced for Ole Miss University.

It is fairly evident that the John Birch Society never called for riots at Ole Miss. Robert Welch had nothing to do with those riots -- and he disavowed any connection on the surface. Evidently, this is something that Ex-General Edwin WALKER accomplished entirely on his own.

Yet in the next few weeks, the John Birch Society would publish a book, "Invasion of Mississippi" (1963) by Earl Lively, which blames JFK for the riots, and made WALKER appear to be a courageous patriot and peacemaker at Ole Miss.

So -- one cannot say that Robert Welch fully disagreed with WALKER. JFK said victory has a thousand fathers, but failure is an orphan. If WALKER had been victorious at Ole Miss, I have little doubt that Robert Welch would have taken some bows with WALKER. But since WALKER failed miserably at Ole Miss, I'm not surprised that Robert Welch distanced himself from it -- at first.

The same may be true of the humiliation of Adlai Stevenson on 10/24/1963 in Dallas -- it was a "Commie Trap" prepared the night before by WALKER, along with the Friends of Walker, the JBS, the NIC and the YAF.

Yet perhaps it was firstly the leadership of Ex-General Edwin WALKER that brought the pieces together. The strategy was from Robert Welch -- "never let a Communist finish a speech" was his wise guidance in 1959. WALKER evidently took that advice as Orders, and dutifully prevented Adlai Stevenson (US Ambassador to the UN) from completing his speech. (It is indeed interesting that Lee Harvey OSWALD attended the WALKER meeting the night before, in the very same Dallas Memorial Auditorium where Stevenson was to be humiliated.)

If that was also Edwin WALKER's original tactic for fulfilling the strategy of the John Birch Society -- shall we let the John Birch Society escape without further scrutiny?

I think not.

It seems to me that Edwin WALKER planned the full paramilitary attack on JFK starting at the very least back to September 1963, with assurances in place by October 1963. It seems to me that he was able to do this because -- despite his headstrong personality -- there were people in high places in the extreme right-wing that would follow WALKER's orders.

These followers were members of the Minutemen, members of paramilitary organizations, former military men, and also members of the John Birch Society -- which preached that JFK was a Communist, just as Eisenhower had been a Communist, just as Truman had been a Communist, and just as Roosevelt had been a Communist.

I think the intellectual leadership of the JBS among the extreme right-wing in 1963 contributed in a criminal manner to murder JFK.

These were accomplices, IMHO.

Where should we look? We should first established WALKER's contacts and accomplices in the period of the JFK murder.

We should also obtain as much information on individual Dallas citizens who were also members of the John Birch Society in 1963, especially those who were also members of armed, paramilitary organizations. We will find the JFK killers in this way, IMHO.

Now, who has this material? I believe that individual citizens of Dallas have this information -- about their parents. Children of those parents who were active members of the extreme right-wing politics of 1963 in Dallas -- who were armed and members of armed paramilitary organizations -- they would have this information.

I also believe that the FBI has information about the JFK murder that they are not sharing today -- information will will involve the Dallas JBS, WALKER, OSWALD, and so on.

The John Birch Society may have kept membership lists, but they were careful never to let them become public. We cannot expect the JBS to help with this investigation of their shadier members.

You are quite right that the FBI cannot provide those documents today -- they are sealed under the JFK Records Act until 10/26/2017.

Other than those records -- and future confessions by children of Dallas right-wingers -- I agree that we have no final confirming witness for Harry.

But mining the citizens of Dallas in 2015 -- that's where the best fresh data will come from.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Well, Paul, without getting too much into the weeds....

1. Scores of researchers have obtained files from the FBI and other agencies --- and nobody has ever found anything to connect the JBS to any sort of criminal activity -- much less arguably the most momentous murder of a U.S. politician during the 20th century. Of course, there is always speculation because (as I have mentioned before), it is easy to find "dots" to connect when you are primarily looking for "confirmations" of whatever theory you prefer to believe.

2. The "intellectual leadership" of the Birch Society is not a subject which I believe you have any genuine knowledge about. You just use that phrase without knowing its actual meaning.

Let me put this into a personal context. Somebody could come along and refer to YOU as part of the "intellectual leadership" of JBS-haters. On many occasions here in EF you have referred to JBS members and officials as "traitors".

Now....does your "intellectual leadership" for that argument mean that rational people should believe that you are capable of planning, facilitating, financing, and/or executing a murder plot against specific JBS members and officials? Should YOUR name be at the top of somebody's list of suspects?

AND, after 50+ years of research, if nobody can find anything to actually connect you to this hypothetical "JBS murder plot" -- should we just assume (or speculate) that such evidence DOES exist but has not been discovered yet?

OR

Before entertaining any such ideas about you -- should somebody know something factual about your religious and moral beliefs and your life-long behavior AND should somebody know something factual about your family, friends, and associates -- i.e. what type of people they are, what they believe, how they behave, what their political and religious convictions and values are so we could get a sense of your values and what type of people you regard as decent, honorable, principled individuals?

The fundamental problem with your "JBS plot" theory has always been that you have created a cartoon caricature of JBS members and officials.

You always assume the worst about them as individual people. You think they have no restraining moral convictions. You think that they have no sincere religious values. You think that they have no respect for the process of law or American legal traditions. You think that JBS members are so obsessed with their conspiracy arguments that they are willing to accept any proposed action--even if criminal.

In short, you think that JBS members and officials would, at the drop of a hat, immediately become receptive to a plausible murder plot against any President of the United States they disliked.

This is a preposterous idea -- which anybody who knows the caliber and values of the people who founded the JBS would understand.

However -- let me be very clear: EVERY large organization (liberal, conservative, socialist or whatever) attracts weirdos and wackos -- and people who think they can manipulate other members of their group to adopt their own personal agenda. Liberals dealt with this problem in the 1940's and 1950's and 1960's when they expelled radicals (including Communists) from labor unions, anti-war organizations, civil rights organizations, and other groups. For example: at one time, ACLU chapters in Los Angeles and Seattle were dominated by Communist sympathizers but they were ultimately expelled. Comparable actions were taken at various NAACP chapters.

Those left-wing radicals would certainly have been receptive to the type of "direct action" which could lead to violence and injuries (and even death) to human beings -- because their ideology (and their personal values) believed that such activities would ultimately produce a revolutionary environment which they would then lead.

The JBS never had such a belief system. And it was appalled by anybody (left or right) who adopted such ideas and values because of the JBS interpretation of history and society as a living organism where change must always be slow, gradual, incremental, and the result of specific processes which were designed to make it an arduous process to make significant changes within society. In the JBS scheme of things --- violence and crimes against humanity are the inevitable result of left-wing belief systems and the JBS believes that liberalism, socialism, fabianism, fascism, nazism, communism are ALL left-wing belief systems (i.e. collectivists).

From the JBS standpoint, collectivists always attempt to coerce society into adopting their agenda through government laws, regulations, and "executive orders". As such, collectivists are seen as mortal enemies of individualists who believe that government coercion is the problem, not the solution.

THAT is the value system which motivated JBS members (and their sympathizers) -- and they would recoil in horror against any suggestion that they should participate in or condone an act of murder as a political "solution" because they attribute that type of behavior exclusively to leftists (radicals) who often are atheists and have no respect for human life.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Ernie Lazar

[Jon G. Tidd]

Ernie, to your knowledge was there significant overlap in 1963 of JBS and the Minutemen, the American Nazis, or the KKK?

[Ernie Lazar]

Ernie, to your knowledge was there significant overlap in 1963 of JBS and the Minutemen, the American Nazis, or the KKK?

Jon: There are many links or "overlaps" which can be found --- in the sense that there was a shared general ideological agreement about people and organizations and policies they disliked or hated.

As I have pointed out before, George Lincoln Rockwell [founder, American Nazi Party] named Senator Joe McCarthy and Gen. Douglas MacArthur as two of his heroes whom he acknowledged as forming his political beliefs and values. The JBS lionized McCarthy and even established their new HQ in Appleton WI (near where McCarthy was born). Does that "link" or "overlap" mean that JBS members approved of George Lincoln Rockwell or the American Nazi Party? Of course not. The JBS despised nazis as left-wing criminals who murdered people and destroyed individual freedom in the service of their collectivist ideology.

There were members of the JBS who also were members of the Minutemen and KKK but when JBS officials discovered them -- they were expelled from the Society particularly if they attempted to use JBS members to promote their MM or KKK agenda. There are FBI documents which refer to KKK meetings held in the home of a JBS member (such as in Arkansas) and there are well-known examples of JBS members who subsequently formed their own racist or anti-semitic organizations OR whom engaged in criminal activities (such as Tom Metzger, Ben Klassen, Robert Mathews, etc.) But those activities were not done with the knowledge or approval or support of the JBS anymore than liberal organizations (like ACLU or NAACP) approved or facilitated the activities of radicals in their organizations.

So everything depends upon definitions -- and how much you want to accept guilt by association as a legitimate analytic methodology.

POSTSCRIPT:

Some of the comments made on the neo-nazi website Stormfront about the JBS are particularly interesting:

(1)

I joined the JBS as a teenager in the mid 60s and a few years later I became a chapter leader. My chapter members were also for the most part quite young and many were friends that I recruited. I joined for the wrong reasons. The newspapers led me to believe that the JBS's real agenda was white racialism. This was in reality not true although at that time Dr. Oliver was a regular writer for the Birch magazine and he wrote from a racialist perspective. Most of the members of my chapter were outspoken racial nationalists and anti-semites. The few that weren't didn't object to my agenda which for the most part ignored the actual Birch program. I was expelled in 1968,a year or two after Dr. Oliver resigned. The Birch Senior Coordinator discovered that instead of distributing Birch material we had set up a little company to distribute paperback copies of Yockey's Imperium and Belloc's The Jews. They were right to expell me as their goals and mine were in actuality mutually exclusive.

(2)

As a former member of the JBS I can tell you they are of no help to white nationalism. Most in the JBS are zionist christians. Once in you see the focus of the Society geared toward religious theocracy, "Christian government", "God centered life", "judeo-Christian Founders", etc. The JBS is not looking to secure a future for the white race, they are too busy talking about "christian government". Now they do emphasize constitutional government as it was intended by the nations Founders, but that plays second fiddle to religion. in my opinion.

(3)

Charles, when I was very young, in my teens, I was a member also. Now I was always more or less racially aware by instinct, so from the beginning I was uneasy with them. By the same token, nearly all the individual members I knew were at least sympathetic to racialism. However the further up you went in the organization, the weaker they became on the race issue.

I soon realized that their ideas were more based on nominalist nationalist jingoism and quasi-theocracy than a true dedication to the survival of our people. They did publish a vast body of literature, and much of it was of great value and often very well written. However in the end what seemed to matter to them was not blood, but simply the fact of whether or not you happened to have popped out of your mom’s womb within the map coordinates of the US, whether you were somber and reverent acting, and whether you shared a certain sort of religion.

To me the first 2 are irrelevant entirely, and the third presupposes an arrogance and knowledge of a vast and unending Cosmos that is not yet complete. Certainly I more agreed with them on the third point then not, but I felt that as long as a man or woman was of my blood, respected our common blood, and sought to live by the Laws of nature, whether he found the path to do so by Jesus, Odin, Zeus, Zoaraster, Krishna or even his or her own reason, they were my kin.

Recently, my decision long ago to leave the JBS was only reaffirmed when I discovered to my horror that George Schuyler, a well known very conservative Black scholar, poet, journalist and writer, who was a contributing editor for the then JBS publication "American Opinion" was MARRIED TO A WHITE woman! Moreover he had been at least since the 1950s a time when this was utterly unheard of, and a time when even the most liberal mainstream publications would NEVER allow a racemixing Black man to even write a crossword puzzle for them much less remain on their masthead!

I only discovered this a few years ago, and I am not exaggerating when I say I feel "soiled" for ever having been a part of this organization. Certainly Robert Welch did a fine job in hiding this from the membership, and even the KKK and other racialist organizations of the day do not seem to have been aware of it.

Also: the founder of the National Alliance (William Pierce) wrote a lengthy article explaining why the JBS was totally ineffective as an anti-communist organization. His sentiments were echoed by the leadership of the National States Rights Party (Ed Fields and J.B. Stoner and their newspaper, The Thunderbolt). The NSRP was composed of Klan members, neo-nazis, and assorted white supremacists.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Ernie Lazar