Jump to content
The Education Forum

Is it true that “the 10 closest witnesses to the limousine in Dealy Plaza were never called to testify”?


Len Colby

Recommended Posts

why don't you the change the title of this thread to coincide with YOUR post declaration... ?

For lurkers information, perhaps Mr. Colby can tell us why the police officer closest to JFK [at the time of his assassination less than 10 feet from him] was NOT called to testify in front of the WC? A Dallas POLICE officer!

[...]

Most of his claims about 9/11 were false so why should his claims about the assassination be any different?

Len

David the question was not retorical. I am not claiming that Fetzer's statements about the DP witnesses were false I don't know enough about the details of the case to know either way.

A few questions (for anyone who cares to answer)

Were all the "10 closest witnesses" identified before the WC herings?

Since the car was travelling at 9 - 13 MPH which comes to 13 -19 fps and the shots were fired over a 6 second period the limo would have about 100 ft furthur down the road at the time of the 3rd shot than at the time of the 1st is there a group of people that can be called the "10 closest"?

Do we have records of any of these people who were interviewed by police who made statements contradicting the LHO as lone assassin senario who were not called by the WC?

Also who of the witnesses close to the limo claimed they had their testimoney changed?

Sorry if I'm asking a bunch of dumb "newbie" questions, the only aspect of the assassination I have looked into closely are the allegation the Z-film etc. were faked.

Len

Edited by Len Colby
Link to comment
Share on other sites

'Len Colby' wrote:

David the question was not retorical. I am not claiming that Fetzer's statements about the DP witnesses were false I don't know enough about the details of the case to know either way.

A few questions (for anyone who cares to answer)

Were all the "10 closest witnesses" identified before the WC herings?

dgh: the DP moto-officer, riding at the inside right rear wheel limo position, down Elm St., was the closest witness (outside the limo) to JFK at the time he was shot and killed -- he was NOT called before the WC, why?

Since the car was travelling at 9 - 13 MPH which comes to 13 -19 fps and the shots were fired over a 6 second period the limo would have about 100 ft furthur down the road at the time of the 3rd shot than at the time of the 1st is there a group of people that can be called the "10 closest"?

dgh: based on your calculation above, corresponding with what we see in the current Zapruder film, your conclusion please?

Do we have records of any of these people who were interviewed by police who made statements contradicting the LHO as lone assassin senario who were not called by the WC?

Also who of the witnesses close to the limo claimed they had their testimoney changed?

dgh: Jack White and others can answer that, so can Gary Mack!

Sorry if I'm asking a bunch of dumb "newbie" questions, the only aspect of the assassination I have looked into closely are the allegation the Z-film etc. were faked.

dgh: no dumb 'newbie' questions when it comes to the murder of a sitting US President

Len

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also who of the witnesses close to the limo claimed they had their testimoney changed?

Sorry if I'm asking a bunch of dumb "newbie" questions, the only aspect of the assassination I have looked into closely are the allegation the Z-film etc. were faked.

Len

The only close-by witness I'm aware of to state that her words were changed was Jean Hill. (There were others involved to state their testimony or statements were changed, but they were not among the closest witnesses.) Jean Hill was probably over-stating her case. Her early statements as currently available do indeed suggest conspiracy. I've been collecting eyewitness testimony lately. Here's a whole heap of Hill.

"Jean Hill, the woman in red in the Zapruder film, stood just east of her friend, Mary .Moorman, who wore blue. (1:21 PM 11-22-63 WBAP interview) “the shots came directly across the street from us, and just as the President’s car became directly even with us…he and Jackie were looking at a dog that was in the middle of the seat, and about that time two shots rang out just as he looked up—just as the President looked up and these two shots rang out and he grabbed his chest, looked like he was in pain, and fell over in his seat. And Jackie fell over him and said “My God, he’s been shot!” After that more shots rang out and the car sped away...the shots came from the hill…it was just east of the underpass. ” (3:16 PM 11-22-63 WBAP interview, quoted in Pictures of the Pain) “Mary started to take the picture and the President came right even with us, two shot, we looked at him and he was looking at a dog in the middle of the seat—two shots rang out…And there was an interval and then three or four more shots…” (11-22-63 WFAA interview, quoted in Pictures of the Pain) “just as the car came right in line with us, the President looked up and just as he looked up two shots rang out and he grabbed his chest and this real odd look came over his face and he pitched forward onto her lap…the motorcade momentarily halted and three or four more shots rang out and they sped away real quickly.”(11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H479, 24H212) “The President’s car came around the corner and it was over on our side of the street. Just as Mary Moorman started to take a picture we were looking at the President and Jackie in the back seat… looking at a little dog between them. Just as the President looked up toward us two shots rang out and I saw the President grab his chest and fall forward across Jackie’s lap and she fell across his back and said “My God, he has been shot”. There was an instant pause between the first two shots and the motorcade seemingly halted for a second and three or four more shots rang out and the motorcade sped away.” (Interview in Rush to Judgment, filmed 2-18-64) “the consensus of opinion…down there at the quarters was that there had been only three shots…they kept sayin, are you sure it wasn’t echoes?” (3-18-64 FBI report, 25H853) “She stated that President Kennedy was looking down when she shouted and when he turned to look at her a shot rang out and he slumped towards Mrs. Kennedy… Mrs Hill heard more shots ring out and saw the hair on the back of President Kennedy’s head fly up…she heard from four to six shots in all and believes they came from a spot just west of the Texas School Book Depository. She thought there was slight interval between the first three shots and the remaining shots.” (3-24-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H205-223) “We were standing on the curb and I jumped to the edge of the street and yelled “Hey, we want to take your picture” to him and he was looking down in the seat—he and Mrs. Kennedy and their heads were turned toward the middle of the car looking down at something in the seat, which later turned out to be roses…as I yelled “Hey” to him, he started to bring his head up to look at me and just as he did the shots rang out. Mary took the picture and fell on the ground and of course there were more shots…I have always said there were some four to six shots. There were three shots, one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or just a moment’s pause, and then I heard more.” (1964-2000) Hill told her story many more times over the next 35 years. As related in Peter Whitmey’s excellent online article The Lady in Red, it got more and more outlandish. She did, however, remain consistent in claiming to have heard four to six shots, with the first shot striking Kennedy in the head.

Analysis: Jean Hill’s early statements described 2 quick shots, one before Jackie cried out, and one after, and then other shots after a pause. As virtually no one else describes hearing shots after a pause after the head shot, it seems possible Miss Hill was hearing the echoes of the two loud shots she and so many others had just heard.. The possibility of her having super-human hearing is refuted by the fact that she failed to hear even one shot before the head shot. Heard four shots? Did not hear the first shot. Last two shots (or more) bunched together (with the last shot after the head shot).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also who of the witnesses close to the limo claimed they had their testimoney changed?

Sorry if I'm asking a bunch of dumb "newbie" questions, the only aspect of the assassination I have looked into closely are the allegation the Z-film etc. were faked.

Len

The only close-by witness I'm aware of to state that her words were changed was Jean Hill. (There were others involved to state their testimony or statements were changed, but they were not among the closest witnesses.) Jean Hill was probably over-stating her case. Her early statements as currently available do indeed suggest conspiracy. I've been collecting eyewitness testimony lately. Here's a whole heap of Hill.

"Jean Hill, the woman in red in the Zapruder film, stood just east of her friend, Mary .Moorman, who wore blue. (1:21 PM 11-22-63 WBAP interview) “the shots came directly across the street from us, and just as the President’s car became directly even with us…he and Jackie were looking at a dog that was in the middle of the seat, and about that time two shots rang out just as he looked up—just as the President looked up and these two shots rang out and he grabbed his chest, looked like he was in pain, and fell over in his seat. And Jackie fell over him and said “My God, he’s been shot!” After that more shots rang out and the car sped away...the shots came from the hill…it was just east of the underpass. ” (3:16 PM 11-22-63 WBAP interview, quoted in Pictures of the Pain) “Mary started to take the picture and the President came right even with us, two shot, we looked at him and he was looking at a dog in the middle of the seat—two shots rang out…And there was an interval and then three or four more shots…” (11-22-63 WFAA interview, quoted in Pictures of the Pain) “just as the car came right in line with us, the President looked up and just as he looked up two shots rang out and he grabbed his chest and this real odd look came over his face and he pitched forward onto her lap…the motorcade momentarily halted and three or four more shots rang out and they sped away real quickly.”(11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H479, 24H212) “The President’s car came around the corner and it was over on our side of the street. Just as Mary Moorman started to take a picture we were looking at the President and Jackie in the back seat… looking at a little dog between them. Just as the President looked up toward us two shots rang out and I saw the President grab his chest and fall forward across Jackie’s lap and she fell across his back and said “My God, he has been shot”. There was an instant pause between the first two shots and the motorcade seemingly halted for a second and three or four more shots rang out and the motorcade sped away.” (Interview in Rush to Judgment, filmed 2-18-64) “the consensus of opinion…down there at the quarters was that there had been only three shots…they kept sayin, are you sure it wasn’t echoes?” (3-18-64 FBI report, 25H853) “She stated that President Kennedy was looking down when she shouted and when he turned to look at her a shot rang out and he slumped towards Mrs. Kennedy… Mrs Hill heard more shots ring out and saw the hair on the back of President Kennedy’s head fly up…she heard from four to six shots in all and believes they came from a spot just west of the Texas School Book Depository. She thought there was slight interval between the first three shots and the remaining shots.” (3-24-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H205-223) “We were standing on the curb and I jumped to the edge of the street and yelled “Hey, we want to take your picture” to him and he was looking down in the seat—he and Mrs. Kennedy and their heads were turned toward the middle of the car looking down at something in the seat, which later turned out to be roses…as I yelled “Hey” to him, he started to bring his head up to look at me and just as he did the shots rang out. Mary took the picture and fell on the ground and of course there were more shots…I have always said there were some four to six shots. There were three shots, one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or just a moment’s pause, and then I heard more.” (1964-2000) Hill told her story many more times over the next 35 years. As related in Peter Whitmey’s excellent online article The Lady in Red, it got more and more outlandish. She did, however, remain consistent in claiming to have heard four to six shots, with the first shot striking Kennedy in the head.

Analysis: Jean Hill’s early statements described 2 quick shots, one before Jackie cried out, and one after, and then other shots after a pause. As virtually no one else describes hearing shots after a pause after the head shot, it seems possible Miss Hill was hearing the echoes of the two loud shots she and so many others had just heard.. The possibility of her having super-human hearing is refuted by the fact that she failed to hear even one shot before the head shot. Heard four shots? Did not hear the first shot. Last two shots (or more) bunched together (with the last shot after the head shot).

I heard Jean tell her story in person close to a dozen times.

It never varied from her early testimony and statements.

She was always truthful, even if sometimes her observations

were not completely accurate or easily explained:

1. She saw what she thought was a little white dog. There was

no dog, but she saw SOMETHING she thought was a dog, not

seen in the Z film.

2. She jumped INTO THE STREET "almost close enough to touch"

the limousine. This is half true, half hyperbole. She did step off

the curb...but no closer than perhaps ten feet to the car.

3. Importantly, she noted "the car was on our side of the street";

several other witnesses said the limo veered to the left and

stopped. The Z film shows the car going straight.

4. She said she crossed the street "chasing a gunman" on the

knoll immediately, but films show it was a couple of minutes.

To her, it was immediately. And she thought the man she

saw was suspicious, but she was only speculating about him

being a gunman, since she did not see him shoot.

5. She saw a pool of blood on the north side of Elm which has

never been precisely identified. But she did not invent this;

she saw something she thought was blood.

These are impressions relayed by a young schoolteacher in

a shocking situation, telling what she observed. She did not

make any of this stuff up. She did not lie. What she said

is important, when correctly assessed by anyone not on a

vendetta like Whitmey, Mack or Perry.

Jack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. She saw what she thought was a little white dog. There was

no dog, but she saw SOMETHING she thought was a dog, not

seen in the Z film.

Let us not forget that Jean's view into the limo was different than Zapruder's. Either Jean saw Jackie's gloves as they laid on the First Lady's lap or Jean saw the white flowers Jackie also had inside the car. The interviewer had asked Jean to give her first impressions as to what she had seen and in Jean's mind the white color represented something that the First couple had on the seat with them ... possibly a dog.

2. She jumped INTO THE STREET "almost close enough to touch"

the limousine. This is half true, half hyperbole. She did step off

the curb...but no closer than perhaps ten feet to the car.

Jean's remark above was nothing more than a figure of speech and nothing else. Jean said in her book that she had time to think that the SS would not like her so close to the car, thus the limo has not reached her position at the time all this was happening. Jean said that she thought better of being close to the car so she decided to get back out of the street.

3. Importantly, she noted "the car was on our side of the street";

several other witnesses said the limo veered to the left and

stopped. The Z film shows the car going straight.

Jean may not have considered that the road bends where her and Mary were standing, thus it may appear that the car moved away from her side of the street as it followed its lane of traffic. I spoke to Jean about what was seen on the Zapruder film and never did she say that something occurred with the limo that was not seen on the Zazpruder film.

Bill Miller

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jack, I didn't mean to imply that Jean was untruthful. Her story just changed with the times. She wasn't alone in this. Research, in fact, tells us that the more you retell a story, the less based on reality in time it will become. Basically, cognitive psychologists have discovered that we have no VCR component in our brain. We have no real time experience file to refer back to. Furthermore, they have discovered that our emotions run the editing machine. As a result, our experiences in time reflect our emotional truths and not the reality experienced by others. Jean was scared by her experience. Over time it became more scary. She felt threatened by officialdom. Over time the newspaper man became an FBI agent, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jack, I didn't mean to imply that Jean was untruthful. Her story just changed with the times. She wasn't alone in this. Research, in fact, tells us that the more you retell a story, the less based on reality in time it will become. Basically, cognitive psychologists have discovered that we have no VCR component in our brain. We have no real time experience file to refer back to. Furthermore, they have discovered that our emotions run the editing machine. As a result, our experiences in time reflect our emotional truths and not the reality experienced by others. Jean was scared by her experience. Over time it became more scary. She felt threatened by officialdom. Over time the newspaper man became an FBI agent, etc.

Please cite her changing a newspaper man to an FBI agent.

Her story never involved a newspaper man. It was Mary who

talked to a newspaper man. Jean consistently claimed that

she was confronted ON THE KNOLL by a man in a suit who

asked why she and her friend were taking photos, and he

demanded the photos. He grabbed her by the back of the

neck with a painful hold and said "come with me". She was

taken to an upper floor of the jail building, where she was

reunited with Mary. They had become separated. They were

both in a room with several men in suits. The room's window

had a view of Elm Street. The men indicated that they had

watched from the window as the girls took photos. Jean

told this story consistently many times. She never mentioned

a newspaper man. Can you tell us the origin of this?

Jack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bill Miller'

[...]

I spoke to Jean about what was seen on the Zapruder film and never did she say that something occurred with the limo that was not seen on the Zazpruder film.

Bill Miller

************

interesting, where did this interview take place, was it recorded, who was present and when..., please?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And that “those who were close by were asked the wrong questions…and if any of them actually provided information that was accurate and important on relevant topics they had their testimony changed”

Fetzer made these claims in a presentation about 9/11

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8648669617598919525&q=fetzer&hl=en starting at 38:45

Most of his claims about 9/11 were false so why should his claims about the assassination be any different?

Len

So Len, what's the point of this thread?

Are you trying to say that claims made by James Fetzer about 9/11 are equally applicable to the JFK assassination? The claims about DP witnesses being persuaded to see things the Governments way are many. See the posts from Bernice and Pat for starters. The tenuous connection between this and claims made about 9/11 is one you have yet to establish, IMO.

Are you using the knowledge of researchers on the Forum in order to contradict Fetzer and support an argument against him? Shouldn't you research the statements of the witnesses yourself? Much of it is already here--just use the Forum index.

Judging by your posts on other issues, you seem to be an expert on many subjects. It should be child's play for you to gather the necessary information from sources available online. You seem to handle this task with consummate ease when discussing other issues.

An expert on a wide range of subjects and a 'newbie' on this. Give me a break.

I'm beginning to regard your presence here with a degree of suspicion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mark to Len....... ""An expert on a wide range of subjects and a 'newbie' on this. Give me a break.

I'm beginning to regard your presence here with a degree of suspicion""..

..Cheers.... :)

************************

Pat: You say......""As virtually no one else describes hearing shots after a pause after the head shot, it seems possible Miss Hill was hearing the echoes of the two loud shots she and so many others had just heard.. ""

First day evidence..

WBAP TV.. Nov 22/63, live interview...Mary virtually states the same, information of hearing shots after, the head shot..and being in the line of fire.......

Mary Moorman: Quote..

""There were oh three or four real close together, and it was, uh, and it must have been the first one that, that uh shot him, cause thats when I, thats the time when I took the picture..and during that time, after I took the picture, and the shots were still being fired and I decided I'd better get on the ground, I was oh ..no more that fifteen feet from the car, and in the line of fire, evidently"".

Mary did not attend the WC but her statement was taken, this information is not within, I do not believe.

B.. B)

Edited by Bernice Moore
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So Len, what's the point of this thread?

I'm beginning to regard your presence here with a degree of suspicion.

I've regarded his stance on everything with a great deal of suspicion since the get-go......

In Len's defense, he came to this Forum not as a Kennedy researcher, but as a debunker of Fetzer's book on Wellstone. Because of Fetzer's interest in a possible Zapruder film hoax, Len looked into that as well. Because of Fetzer's interest in possible 9/11 conspiracies, he looked into that as well. In the very early threads on the Wellstone crash, it was made clear that Len had challenged Fetzer on a few other websites, and that Fetzer had insulted him. It's clearly a personal thing between them. As Len has never claimed to have much of an interest in the JFK assassination outside Fetzer's claims about it, it makes sense that he would ask others the veracity of Fetzer's non 9/11, non-Wellstone crash, non-Zapruder film alteration, conclusions. I suspect he will accept our consensus opinion that with his perhaps slightly-overblown claims about the "10 closest witnesses, etc" Fetzer was still largely correct.

Mark to Len....... ""An expert on a wide range of subjects and a 'newbie' on this. Give me a break.

I'm beginning to regard your presence here with a degree of suspicion""..

..Cheers.... :D

************************

Pat: You say......""As virtually no one else describes hearing shots after a pause after the head shot, it seems possible Miss Hill was hearing the echoes of the two loud shots she and so many others had just heard.. ""

First day evidence..

WBAP TV.. Nov 22/63, live interview...Mary virtually states the same, information of hearing shots after, the head shot..and being in the line of fire.......

Mary Moorman: Quote..

""There were oh three or four real close together, and it was, uh, and it must have been the first one that, that uh shot him, cause thats when I, thats the time when I took the picture..and during that time, after I took the picture, and the shots were still being fired and I decided I'd better get on the ground, I was oh ..no more that fifteen feet from the car, and in the line of fire, evidently"".

Mary did not attend the WC but her statement was taken, this information is not within, I do not believe.

B.. B)

While Moorman and Holland described more than one shot after the head shot, neither of them mentioned a significant pause after two quick shots before other shots resumed. Hill always made a point of saying there were two shots, a pause, and then the rest. Moorman thought there were two, three or four shots all together around the time of the head shot. In her early statements, perhaps under Hill's influence, she said three or four. She eventually settled on three.

Edited by Pat Speer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fetzer made these claims in a presentation about 9/11

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8648669617598919525&q=fetzer&hl=en starting at 38:45

Most of his claims about 9/11 were false so why should his claims about the assassination be any different?

So Len, what's the point of this thread?

Are you trying to say that claims made by James Fetzer about 9/11 are equally applicable to the JFK assassination? The claims about DP witnesses being persuaded to see things the Governments way are many. See the posts from Bernice and Pat for starters. The tenuous connection between this and claims made about 9/11 is one you have yet to establish, IMO.

Perhaps now that Fetzer has been shown to be largely correct in his "claims about the assassination," Len will be encouraged to reassess Fetzer's claims about 9/11. After all, "most of his claims about the assassination are true, so why should his claims about 9/11 be any different?" Oh, but that's not exactly what Len had in mind when launching the first salvo, was it?

Are you using the knowledge of researchers on the Forum in order to contradict Fetzer and support an argument against him? Shouldn't you research the statements of the witnesses yourself? Much of it is already here--just use the Forum index.

But that requires actual effort, when it's so much simpler to dash off a quick ad hominem. Effort? Mark, surely you jest?

Judging by your posts on other issues, you seem to be an expert on many subjects. It should be child's play for you to gather the necessary information from sources available online. You seem to handle this task with consummate ease when discussing other issues.

An expert on a wide range of subjects and a 'newbie' on this. Give me a break.

I'm beginning to regard your presence here with a degree of suspicion.

One cannot imagine why...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

""While Moorman and Holland described more than one shot after the head shot, neither of them mentioned a significant pause after two quick shots before other shots resumed. Hill always made a point of saying there were two shots, a pause, and then the rest. Moorman thought there were two, three or four shots all together around the time of the head shot. In her early statements, perhaps under Hill's influence, she said three or four. She eventually settled on three.""

Pat:

Jean Hill never uses the words a Significant Pause.....she uses such words as...

"interval,........... instant pause between the first two shots , ..............three shots, one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or just a moment’s pause then I heard more."

And where in heavens name does," perhaps under Hill's influence "come into the documentation...where is the information pertaining to such, in that regard??.

That is supposition, on your part .....and we cannot put words into the witnesses mouths, no matter what we would like them to say...mean or not state.. it doesn't work that way...imo.

And yes Mary did settle on three after some time and she had been talked to...Jean never did, she said

she heard more than three shots and stuck to her guns, as others did, also..

Jack: mentioned:" 4. She said she crossed the street "chasing a gunman" on the

knoll immediately, but films show it was a couple of minutes.

To her, it was immediately. And she thought the man she

saw was suspicious, but she was only speculating about him

being a gunman, since she did not see him shoot."

Jean said: She observed: "......... a man up there running, .....or getting away ....at the top of the slope."

She described the man as of " average height and of a heavy build "...and " wearing a brown raincoat and a hat". She said the man ran " in the direction of the railroad tracks ."

An abandoned overcoat was found later that afternoon under an overpass a short distance west of Dealey Plaza..?

Jean declined to give a filmed interview to Mark Lane, though she did tell him, he said, that "......the FBI was here for days .They practically lived here. They just didn't like what I told them I saw and heard when the President was

assassinated"......No filmed interview because " For two years I have told the truth, but I have two children to support and I am a public school teacher. My principal said it would be best not to talk about the assassination, and I just can't go through it all again. I can't believe the Warren Reprt. I know it's all a lie, because I was there when it happened, but I can't talk about it anymore because I don't want the FBI here constantly and I want to contunue to teach, here. I hope you don't think I'm a coward, but I cannot talk about the case anymore." and she did remain quiet for a number of years..until her children were grown.

They tried to intimidate her as they did Marina, which was corroborated by Robert Oswald, and others such as Richard Randolph Carr when he was told, rather than asked what he had witnessed during the assassination. Agents told him he had better keep his mouth shut. There were others also..and some did ..change their information when compared to first day, and some never did, like Orville Nix, Sam Holland, and others......but for now.

Thanks..

B.. :P

Edited by Bernice Moore
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is interesting.

Did she not hear the shots that Kennedy and Connally responded to (dramatically) farther uphill.

But the headshot and other related shots she did hear..........

Anyone care to have a lone nut, anyone??

Edited by Shanet Clark
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...