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The Paines


Tim Gratz

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All excellent points, Pat.

Of course the proper legal proceeding needs to be opened to subpoena M Paine.

Was he ever interviewed by the HSCA?

If a proper legal proceeding was initiated, what if Paine was subpoeneaed under a grant of immunity but was told if we discover you are lying the full weight of the US will come down on you like a ton of bricks and if you can be proven to be an accessory who lied in the deposition we will spare no expense to convict you in Texas so you will die in jail.

Does anyone know the current wherabouts of Paine?

Are all members aware of the very suspicious recorded phone call between Paine and his wife wherein Paine said, to the effect, "We both know who is behind this"?

Edited by Tim Gratz
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There is an excellent article by Steve Jones called 'The confessions of Ruth Paine' where he described how he talked to a friend of Paines and she outlined how people stayed away from her while on missionary work as she was believed to work with the CIA in infiltrating such groups. I'm sure you can find it on a Google search.

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John refered me to the article I had in mind.

Here is an interesting quote from the article "The Confessions of Ruth Paine":

The one and only time Ruth showed any cracks at all regarding the assassination itself was when she was having a difficulties with her now 40-year-old daughter. With tears in her eyes, Ruth stated that her daughter did not want to speak to her any more until she came to grips with "the evil that I have been associated with in my life." When the friend gently pushed further and asked, "What evil?" Ruth clammed up. But the friend assured me that she was convinced this was a veiled reference to the Kennedy assassination and that Ruth was not talking strictly about Lee Oswald. The friend firmly believes this because the comment was made in the context of a brief discussion about the assassination.

Here is a link to the article:

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/DPQ/dparchiv1.htm#RUTH

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ah, John don't rely on those deathbed confessions as I've mentioned, just a set up for disappointment.  Researchers may have to rely on what's published. 

"Mrs. Paine's Garage" should be mentioned here.  It's a little book a LNer-ish book, but something strange happens in the course of telling Ruth's story.  The author admits that Michael may have more to say that he zigzagged around in first place. He saw the backyard photos in LHO apartment and mentioned something was "wierd" about LHO to a co-worker or some such.  Perhaps this book is Ruth's last jab at her husband at large, but it is compelling.  Neither may know the other in this mess, one is lead to belive.

The Paines were a nouveau couple. Like the DeMorenschildts, not at all "regular" 1950s Americans.  That is a clue to their involvement, witting or un-witting.  These "outsiders" had the exposure that perhaps made them great "insiders."

From the book you'll see that Ruth was unconventional.  She taught Russian during the cold war and wished to go to USSR. What a person to connect the returning Oswalds to.  Michael worked in military intel projects--a frustrated inventor.  Both had a deep lineage. Ruth travelled from Naushon Island (famous in its own right) to meet the next chapter in her life with Oswald. 

Later, she left Michael and travelled by sailboat on the intracoastal with her kids.  A Bohemiana to an extent.  Not a victim at all but a strong woman while Michael tries to work out his life and trade in counterculture crafts.

The book is a good glimpse at a couple that had only a part in the mission of LHO.  It is what they know.

The Paine Garage:

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And I thought mine was messy, sheesh. Has anyone read this book?

In the book Ruth and Mike's daughter is described as a wiccan. She like her grandfather is into the mystical. I don't recall if there's Masonic influence in that family, does anyone know this? I suspect there is from the Naushon historical connections.

Anyway Daughter Paine suffers severe asthma, allergies or something that flares up when she's around her mother. That daughter reacts physiologically to her mother is interesting.

My research focuses on the "kids" of operators more so I'm very interested in this daughter's accounts if anyone knows of intervus she may have given. What made her so angry, what does she think is the truth about her own parents? What were her childhood impressions of the madness of that year at her house? What does daughter remember of LHO family? Does she know his daughters and what they feel?

Tim's DPQ article he posted is interesting but the gist of that article seems to show Ruth as deliberately trapped into an exposure she doesn't wish. She retreats as expected anyone CIA or not would do when approached by a mob. For this reason I don't belive supoenas are a tool to get at the truth. A court order to appear is hostile technique that I've found doesn't necessarily yield truth.

No, Ruth and Michael Paine have to come to this themselves. They have to want to know what really happened to them. The book left me feeling that they don't really know or only know small part of the big pix.

This seems more like CIA (and her comment that one need look to LIFE mag for all you need to know) influence than Ruth dabbling with her own mystique in Nicaragua. Perhaps she was playing her associates. Her agent type behavior mentioned in DPQ article, seems a bit too obvious for any real spy. Her earlier interviews and what has been said of her behavior post assassination indicates she enjoyed her notoriety somewhat.

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  • 4 months later...

I’m reading Summers’ The Kennedy Conspiracy and I noticed a couple interesting coincidences:

Pg. 144 – “In 1979 the Assassinations Committee Report referred to only two tourists involved in the Minsk photograph episode, but the record long ago revealed that there were three. The identity and precise role of the third demands further investigation. She is Mrs. Marie Hyde, an elderly American woman who struck up an acquaintance with Naman and Kramer at their Moscow hotel. As Naman remembered it, Hyde told them that she had separated from her tour group and asked to accompany them on their trip through Minsk to Poland and the West. They agreed, and thus it was that Hyde came to be with them when the Minsk pictures were taken. It appears, indeed, that the photograph session in the square was undertaken at Mrs. Hyde’s initiative. Hyde took one picture with Kramer’s camera, then got Naman to take a second shot of the same scene using Hyde’s own camera. These are the two photographs in which Oswald appeared.”

Any idea who this Mrs. Hyde was? Ruth Hyde Paine’s father, William Hyde, was connected with the CIA while he lived in Columbus, Ohio. Hyde was an executive for Nationwide Insurance at the same time he was working for AID, a well known CIA front operation. The idea that AID was a CIA front operation was a widely held belief that was confirmed by Ohio Governor John Gilligan. He used to make jokes publicly about AID simply being a gang of spooks. So the mysterious Mrs. Hyde taking the Oswald photos in Russia? Just a coincidence?

Which brings me to my second observation:

Pg. 154 – In 1957 DeMohrenschildt spent many months in Yugoslavia on a geological field survey, and the link with American intelligence was clear-cut. It was now that he worked for the International Cooperation Administration, since identified as a CIA subsidiary of AID- the Agency for International Development.”

So, it appears that good old George DeM and Ruth Hyde Paine’s father, William Hyde, both worked for AID. It’s just amazing how many crazy coincidences exist surrounding this case, isn’t it?

Edited by Greg Wagner
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I've wondered before if there wasn't more to Michael Paine, since all you really hear about is Ruth. It's kind of clever, really - all these years, all the attention on Ruth.. But you never hear anything about Michael. To this day, I can't find a birthdate, a possible death date, anything about his life at all. It's almost creepy, it's kind of like Pablo Bruner - shows up for this brief point in time, just long enough to make a mark, then pretty much disappears again.

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There is a definite family relationship.  Not sure if they were cousins but it sounds about right.

James, Tim

this is from www.answers.com

Several of the Forbes family cashed out of their dealings in China after the Opium War, and reinvested in Europe and the United States. Some of the population growth of Chicago and Midwestern Plains states in the middle to late 19th century was due to John Murray Forbes' railroad projects in Michigan and Chicago. The Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad Co., from Chicago west to the Pacific was built by John Murray Forbes who had perhaps a reputation for sound financial management amongst the railroad tycoons of the day. In 1879, William Forbes, son of John Murray Forbes, risked the fortune to financially back Alexander Graham Bell's telephone company, and become president of the company, a risk which paid off. Cameron Forbes used his wealth to become Governor General of the Philippines. His niece Ruth Forbes Paine Young tapped her Forbes family inheritance to finance the International Peace Academy. Her husband invented the Bell Helicopter used in the Korean and Vietnam Wars. In a tiny footnote to history, Ruth Forbes Paine Young's son, Michael R. Paine, and his wife Ruth Paine, allowed Maria Oswald, the wife of Lee Harvey Oswald, to live in their house as a family friend, and Oswald's rifle was stored for a time in the Paine's family garage

George

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There is a definite family relationship.  Not sure if they were cousins but it sounds about right.

James, Tim

this is from www.answers.com

Several of the Forbes family cashed out of their dealings in China after the Opium War, and reinvested in Europe and the United States. Some of the population growth of Chicago and Midwestern Plains states in the middle to late 19th century was due to John Murray Forbes' railroad projects in Michigan and Chicago. The Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad Co., from Chicago west to the Pacific was built by John Murray Forbes who had perhaps a reputation for sound financial management amongst the railroad tycoons of the day. In 1879, William Forbes, son of John Murray Forbes, risked the fortune to financially back Alexander Graham Bell's telephone company, and become president of the company, a risk which paid off. Cameron Forbes used his wealth to become Governor General of the Philippines. His niece Ruth Forbes Paine Young tapped her Forbes family inheritance to finance the International Peace Academy. Her husband invented the Bell Helicopter used in the Korean and Vietnam Wars. In a tiny footnote to history, Ruth Forbes Paine Young's son, Michael R. Paine, and his wife Ruth Paine, allowed Maria Oswald, the wife of Lee Harvey Oswald, to live in their house as a family friend, and Oswald's rifle was stored for a time in the Paine's family garage

and this one

October 29, 2004

New York Post reports that Michael Paine, husband of Ruth, was Kerry’s cousin.

October 29, 2004 – CONSPIRACY theorists are buzzing about John Kerry’s connection to Lee Harvey Oswald and the JFK assassina tion. While no one in the lunatic fringe has gone so far as to suggest Kerry helped kill Kennedy — yet — they make much of the fact that a cousin of Kerry’s, Michael Paine, was a close friend of Oswald who fre quently had the assassin as a house guest. Paine even stored the rifle Oswald used to shoot Kennedy at his house. Paine’s mother, Ruth Forbes, and Kerry’s mother, Rosemary Forbes, were cousins. It has never been fully explained how Oswald came to have such socially prominent pals, says A.J. Weberman, author of the JFK assassination book “Coup D’Etat in America,” who notes that according to documents released under the JFK Documents Act, Paine’s sister-in-law and father-in-law were both closely connected with the CIA.

George

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Guest John Gillespie
I've wondered before if there wasn't more to Michael Paine, since all you really hear about is Ruth. It's kind of clever, really - all these years, all the attention on Ruth.. But you never hear anything about Michael. To this day, I can't find a birthdate, a possible death date, anything about his life at all. It's almost creepy, it's kind of like Pablo Bruner - shows up for this brief point in time, just long enough to make a mark, then pretty much disappears again.

He reportedly worked for Bell Helicopter. Please read...

"http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/13th_Issue/copa_paines.html

Please read...

The network, bloodlines, etc. involved in this story appear unbelievable. I have material on that aspect of things, including the Paines, the Rambler, etc. and I will bring it with me to work tomorrow, hopefully to refer people to it.

Regards, JAG

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Guest John Gillespie
I've wondered before if there wasn't more to Michael Paine, since all you really hear about is Ruth. It's kind of clever, really - all these years, all the attention on Ruth.. But you never hear anything about Michael. To this day, I can't find a birthdate, a possible death date, anything about his life at all. It's almost creepy, it's kind of like Pablo Bruner - shows up for this brief point in time, just long enough to make a mark, then pretty much disappears again.

One more thing, as Columbo would say...if you followed the Paine-Oswald saga you'll have noted that Ruth and Michael had a most convenient separation (probably as convenient as their marriage and that of the Oswalds, for that matter) that took place before Ruth's direct involvement - and accomodations to -Lee and Marina.

Regards, JAG

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  • 2 years later...

Namebase: Ruth Paine

http://www.namebase.org/main4/Ruth-Paine.html

Back Channels 1992-SU (14)

Davis,J. Mafia Kingfish. 1989 (161, 168, 190)

DiEugenio,J. Destiny Betrayed. 1992 (51, 58-9, 342-3, 364-5, 374)

DiEugenio,J. Pease,L. The Assassinations. 2003 (107, 109, 240-1, 246)

Duffy,J. Ricci,V. The Assassination of John F. Kennedy. 1992 (361-2)

Fensterwald,B. Coincidence or Conspiracy? 1977 (214-6)

Fonzi,G. The Last Investigation. 1993 (10, 51)

Furiati,C. ZR Rifle. 1994 (75, 82, 101)

Garrison,J. On the Trail of the Assassins. 1988 (62-3, 70)

Groden,R. Livingstone,H. High Treason. 1990 (125, 169, 187, 291, 300)

Hepburn,J. Farewell America. 1968 (329, 392, 395)

Kantor,S. The Ruby Cover-up. 1992 (51-2)

LaFontaine,R.& M. Oswald Talked. 1996 (144, 223-5, 380)

Lobster Magazine (Britain) 2005-#50 (59)

Marrs,J. Crossfire. 1990 (40-1, 191, 234, 261, 282-4, 287, 330-1, 450, 452)

Melanson,P. Spy Saga. 1990 (56-7, 80)

Newman,J. Oswald and the CIA. 1995 (331)

Russell,D. The Man Who Knew Too Much. 1992 (310-2, 527, 530-1, 615)

Scott,P.D. Deep Politics. 1993 (263-4)

Scott,P.D... The Assassinations: Dallas and Beyond. 1976 (31-4)

Summers,A. Conspiracy. 1981 (132-3)

Summers,A. Official and Confidential. 1993 (319)

http://www.namebase.org/main3/Michael-Paine.html

DiEugenio,J. Destiny Betrayed. 1992 (52, 215, 342-3, 365)

DiEugenio,J. Pease,L. The Assassinations. 2003 (240-1, 245-7)

Duffy,J. Ricci,V. The Assassination of John F. Kennedy. 1992 (361)

Fensterwald,B. Coincidence or Conspiracy? 1977 (214-6, 562)

Fonzi,G. The Last Investigation. 1993 (10)

Furiati,C. ZR Rifle. 1994 (82)

Garrison,J. On the Trail of the Assassins. 1988 (62-3)

Gritz,J. Called to Serve. 1991 (529)

Groden,R. Livingstone,H. High Treason. 1990 (169)

Hepburn,J. Farewell America. 1968 (392, 395)

LaFontaine,R.& M. Oswald Talked. 1996 (223-4, 234, 380)

Marrs,J. Crossfire. 1990 (191, 282)

Melanson,P. Spy Saga. 1990 (56-7, 80)

Russell,D. The Man Who Knew Too Much. 1992 (312)

Scott,P.D. Deep Politics. 1993 (277, 374)

Summers,A. Conspiracy. 1981 (132-3)

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